Episode 1113 - Fran Drescher
Marc:all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck nicks what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf
Marc:We're in it.
Marc:Man, it... I'll tell you.
Marc:The other day, I fucking... I went down.
Marc:It took a while, but I went down.
Marc:I just got submerged in a hopelessness and a lack of will and...
Marc:In a inability to sway my brain for a while, man, for a while.
Marc:Then I went back into I went from there to anger and then from there to a sort of strange but ever present PTSD.
Marc:That's kind of been there since 2016.
Marc:It was a rough day.
Marc:It was one of those days, man, where you just sort of... I've had enough of this staying indoors shit.
Marc:I don't have a problem not going outside.
Marc:But the fear and the sort of mundanity...
Marc:And sort of everything was just starting to kind of creep in and dismantle any sort of ability I had to be present and just deal.
Marc:And then Wisconsin happened.
Marc:And that tipped me over, man.
Marc:That tipped me over.
Marc:State Supreme Court, then the big Supreme Court, would not allow them to delay the election.
Marc:because of the pandemic, but it also just strangely suited the Republican legislature's desire to have as few people voting against their picks for the Supreme Court and other positions as possible.
Marc:It was just one of those moments where you're like, here's a portal into the future authoritarian stylings of America.
Marc:I think that America's authoritarianism is going to be unique to America as it is anywhere else, depending on the leader in the country.
Marc:But on top of trying to do the right thing, being safe, taking myself out of circulation to protect myself and others, and just honoring that cautiousness.
Marc:I live in a state where this fucking bug doesn't have a foothold as bad as other places because we've got a good governor here and a good mayor here.
Marc:Real leaders did the right thing early on.
Marc:And it's starting to look like it's having an effect in a positive way.
Marc:And then you've got people spinning this thing as some sort of anti-democratic plot on behalf of socialists or the Chinese or looking for blame, looking to spin it to blame Democrats or whatever.
Marc:Unbelievable shallow stupidity.
Marc:God forbid we err on the side of caution when thousands of people are dying from a disease we don't quite understand yet.
Marc:self-actualization plus confidence does not equal intelligence all these sort of seemingly people who present themselves as a strong people strong-willed people people who you know really see through the are the biggest suckers in the world and they love conspiracy theories because they can't afford to be afraid or vulnerable
Marc:So they pick whatever suits their anger and whatever has closure in a way where there's blame placed on somebody other than themselves or the people they believe in.
Marc:And they just go for it, man.
Marc:Sell that shit.
Marc:I wish these dumb motherfuckers would stop doubling down on bullshit.
Marc:Control freaks and people that can't accept powerlessness on any level will gravitate towards any sort of validating garbage that makes themselves...
Marc:You'll feel like they got a handle on shit.
Marc:And there's someone to point a finger at.
Marc:Not the time to do that, but maybe it doesn't fucking matter.
Marc:And then I fucking find out that John Prine dies.
Marc:John Prine was one of the most beautiful artistic spirits this country ever manifested in.
Marc:The real deal, man.
Marc:He was the real deal.
Marc:Just a great songwriter, an earnest singer that just was able to find the heart and the humor and even the darkest of human stories through song, through music.
Marc:He's just a fucking genius.
Marc:And it wasn't all dark.
Marc:What isn't dark, really?
Marc:You know, the celebration of the mundane, it's a poetic pursuit.
Marc:But, you know, if you tip it one way, it's going to get dark.
Marc:And a lot of the portraits of people in his songs were struggling people, people who had hard times.
Marc:But it was for me, you know, getting to the heart and the humor of darkness.
Marc:That's why that's why I love comedy.
Marc:And that's why I love John Prine.
Marc:And he had some health troubles over the years not too long ago, cancer, some heart problems, and he got this coronavirus thing, and it did him in.
Marc:He was 73.
Marc:Should have lived longer, could have lived longer.
Marc:Now, is there somebody to blame for this disease?
Marc:Is there somebody to blame for the infection?
Marc:No, a disease is a disease.
Marc:Is there somebody to blame for the mismanagement of the response?
Marc:Most definitely.
Marc:Most definitely.
Marc:Right at the top, baby.
Marc:But I don't want to cloud an obituary with politics.
Marc:I just want to say that I love John Prine.
Marc:I loved his music.
Marc:I had one of the best conversations with him that I've ever had on an episode of this show.
Marc:And I reposted that.
Marc:I hate having to repost episodes because of that.
Marc:But I love having the episodes to put back out into the world as a memorial to the person that passed.
Marc:John Prime was doing beautiful music up until just a year ago or two.
Marc:Still touring.
Marc:His last record was beautiful.
Marc:Aging with his craft and with his heart.
Marc:It's a tough one, man.
Marc:This guy, a fucking American original, I'll tell you that, man.
Marc:If you're curious about him, you don't know John Prine, check out his music.
Marc:Go listen to that episode.
Marc:It was a gift.
Marc:It was a gift to me that I can now give back to you.
Marc:Rest in peace, John Prine.
Marc:So Fran Drescher is on the show today.
Marc:I don't know if I brought that up.
Marc:I got kind of carried away there.
Marc:But Fran Drescher is with us.
Marc:Fran Drescher, of course, who was the nanny, a very influential show on many people a little younger than me.
Marc:She's on an NBC sitcom called Indebted, which airs Thursday at 930, 830 Central.
Marc:She was in Spinal Tap.
Marc:She was in Saturday Night Fever.
Marc:She was in the Hollywood Nights.
Marc:She's sort of an archetype, an archetype of sorts, an archetype that I'm familiar with.
Marc:I think I had an apprehension about having Fran on because there's a, you know, that something I grew up with, the cousins from Long Island, you know, it's a Jewish thing.
Marc:It's a sort of a kind of slightly aggressive Semitic charm fortress thing.
Marc:Come up against that, but it's not a bad thing.
Marc:I've got cousins like that.
Marc:I dated a woman like that, and Fran reminded me of those people.
Marc:I did date a woman that reminded me a lot of Fran, and my memories are not great of that.
Marc:They're not great memories.
Marc:So I had slight PTSD heading into it, but mild, you know, mild, mild.
Marc:But I've always sort of had a crush on Fran Drescher.
Marc:I always liked Fran Drescher.
Marc:I always thought I understood Fran Drescher, but I didn't know her at all.
Marc:And I'm not sure I do understand her, but I did talk to her today.
Marc:Today, you can hear me talk to Fran Drescher.
Marc:So what else is happening here at the House?
Marc:Really, I did want to give you a heads up.
Marc:There are people who are in my orbit today.
Marc:who are making masks.
Marc:I don't know what state you're in or what's going on there, but we got to wear masks here.
Marc:And...
Marc:There's a couple of places that are making masks.
Marc:Like my friends over at Love Jewels Leather are doing a night.
Marc:These are people that sent me masks.
Marc:These are not paid promotion, but I know they're manufacturing them.
Marc:And Love Jewels Leather also has made available a pattern, a template through which add instructions to make your own mask.
Marc:But you can find them on Instagram at lovejewels.com.
Marc:Leather, L-E-A-T-H-R, L-O-V-E-J-U-L-E-S-L-E-A-T-H-R.
Marc:They sent me a mask, and it's very nice.
Marc:But then there's another crew out there making masks, Headley and Bennett.
Marc:They they made a lovely mask and it's a denim mask.
Marc:These are I guess you could call them hipster face masks.
Marc:But wasn't that bound to happen?
Marc:You can see the Hedley and Bennett masks if you go to Hedley and Bennett, H-E-D-L-E-Y and B-E-N-N-E-T-T at Instagram.
Marc:So there's a couple of options if you want to if you want to make your own.
Marc:Cut a shirt up, use a bandana, whatever.
Marc:It's now sort of become understood that having something's better than nothing.
Marc:Some things are better than others.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But there's a couple mask options for you.
Marc:And you can find out where they're donating in terms of charity and what they're doing to help out because both of those companies are doing things to help out.
Marc:I have to take my cat to the fucking vet and I'm losing my mind.
Marc:It's been two days, man.
Marc:And, you know, we were told here in L.A., even if it's essential, try not to go out.
Marc:And that's not stopping me.
Marc:It's just fucking monkey, man.
Marc:It's fucking monkey.
Marc:I can't fucking deal with the process of taking these cats to the vet.
Marc:He's an old ass, skinny ass man.
Marc:monkey is he's got hyperthyroid i give him pills for that not a problem but now he's got this asthma trip going on and i guess i get i get i got him a steroid shot a few weeks ago maybe a month ago i'm not sure how long he's been but he's clearly needs another one he's having a hard time breathing now i wish i would have told you this story after i went i'd like to have that story but i don't have that story yet i do not
Marc:Yesterday, I tried to get monkey and it got a little violent.
Marc:I didn't time it right.
Marc:I didn't have I didn't have the confidence that you need.
Marc:I've talked about this before.
Marc:When you got to get a certain type of cat into a fucking box, you better have it visualized all the way through.
Marc:And you got to be in it when you start it and you got to make it happen.
Marc:You have to will it into reality, getting that fucking cat in a box.
Marc:And I was wishy-washy.
Marc:I didn't know if I wanted to go.
Marc:I didn't know if I could get him.
Marc:And I fucked up once.
Marc:And then I decided later that I'm going to try again.
Marc:And then it got just horrible.
Marc:Poor old guy.
Marc:I think I blew out his fucking energy for the day.
Marc:Literally acted like I was going to fucking kill him.
Marc:I've had this cat almost 16 years.
Marc:Doesn't matter.
Marc:Still thinks at any point.
Marc:any second that I'll fucking kill him.
Marc:That he's got to fight for his life against me because clearly I'm out to kill him.
Marc:Now,
Marc:if you really think about it, they're not wrong.
Marc:Cause eventually you're probably going to have to kill them, right?
Marc:You're going to have to kill your cat because they live too long and they don't know when to die.
Marc:And I've said that before.
Marc:I know it's a little callous and it's not the greatest way to put it, but you do it with love and you do it with, um, full heart.
Um,
Marc:But this was not the day.
Marc:Today I wanted to bring him into the vet, which is already, this is a whole other thing I got to deal with, a new plague time experience where you drive, I got to drive up to the vet, call, go around back, hand off the cat, and then wait for him to come back out.
Marc:That's how it's going to go.
Marc:I got to make this happen.
Marc:It's going to happen today.
Marc:I don't know if I told you I watched all of unorthodox, which I thought was beautiful.
Marc:It gave me a deeper understanding of ultra orthodox Jews who I've mocked in my past.
Marc:And I've gotten flack for it from non-orthodox Jews who said, hey, no anti-Semitism allowed at all, especially not from us.
Marc:Why pile on when they're piling on us?
Marc:OK, but I learned a lot.
Marc:I learned I learned some things.
Marc:It was a beautifully empathetic four part series about a woman who escapes Williamsburg and the ultra orthodox community there.
Marc:I recommend it.
Marc:Watched The Stranger the other night.
Marc:Orson Welles plays a Nazi hiding in Connecticut as deep into what America is made of as possible.
Marc:It's a pretty menacing, beautifully cut, beautifully paced movie.
Marc:Hadn't seen that in a while.
Marc:I guess we're doing a kind of Nazi and Jew theme over here.
Marc:Listening to a lot of music, listening to listen to the Stones aftermath all the way through the other day.
Marc:Forgot what a great record that was.
Marc:Listen to her satanic majesty's request, the psychedelic Stones record.
Marc:Not a great record, actually.
Marc:A lot of very exploratory.
Marc:We're not the Beatles.
Marc:Though we'll try on this record type of stuff.
Marc:Not knocking the stones, but, you know.
Marc:You don't know every Stones song.
Marc:There's a lot of Stones songs you don't know.
Marc:But you know every Beatles song.
Marc:Right?
Marc:And I'm sort of a Stones guy, but I'm willing to say that.
Marc:Okay, you guys.
Marc:I'm going to talk to Fran Drescher now, and you're going to listen if you'd like.
Marc:I enjoy talking to her.
Marc:I find her very charming and lovely.
Marc:And as I said before, she's on the new NBC show, Indebted.
Marc:This is me and Fran Drescher.
Guest:Oh, incense?
Guest:Incense, yeah.
Marc:You do incense?
Guest:You know, I have them.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I like a diffuser better.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:The thing that you plug into the plug?
Guest:Yes, you plug it in, you put in essential oils.
Guest:Yeah, and then it goes.
Guest:Organic, of course.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Guest:And then it goes, and I...
Guest:I have more control over the smell.
Guest:I can mix and blend.
Guest:Lately, I've been doing some peppermint because that's an antibacterial.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I'm drinking peppermint tea right now.
Guest:That's lovely.
Guest:That's good for digestion.
Marc:Is it?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have you been doing a lot of research on this, Fran?
Marc:No.
Guest:You know, I'm a health activist and a cancer survivor.
Marc:So you got to.
Guest:I'm the founder of the Cancer Cancer Movement.
Marc:Right, I remember, yeah.
Guest:So, you know, I kind of walk the talk.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'm really good, if ever you need any cancers.
Marc:But what is that, though?
Marc:Which kind of cancer did you have?
Guest:I had uterine cancer, which was a slow-growing female cancer, but it took me two years and eight doctors to get a proper diagnosis.
Marc:So it was growing during that time, knowing that you didn't get a diagnosis.
Guest:I went misdiagnosed.
Guest:And then I...
Marc:What was the misdiagnosis?
Marc:Like cysts?
Guest:Perimenopause.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Because most women that get uterine cancer are either postmenopausal or obese, and I was neither.
Guest:But yet 25% of women who do get it, which is one in four, are young and thin.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:So why not just rule out with a simple in-office endometrial biopsy whether this could be that?
Marc:As opposed to just dismissing you.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:This lady's getting older.
Guest:Right.
Guest:She's having old lady problems.
Guest:She's more at the right age for that.
Guest:But doctors are bludgeoned to go the least expensive route of diagnostic testing.
Marc:Yeah, and also they don't know everything.
Guest:They can't turn your doctor into a deity.
Marc:Yeah, they can't.
Marc:That's a mistake.
Marc:I grew up with a doctor.
Marc:My dad was an orthopedic, so it was a little more definitive.
Marc:But really, their ability to connect symptoms, it's a hit or miss thing.
Guest:And you don't know if the doctor that you're seeing is a great diagnostician.
Guest:No.
Guest:Because you're usually just going for the regular checkups.
Marc:Right, and they're just sort of like, well, take a medicine, see if it goes away, try this.
Guest:Yeah, they all subscribe to the philosophy, if you hear hooves galloping, don't look for zebra, it's probably a horse.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But if you happen to be a zebra like me, you're screwed.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Lately, though, I've met a lot of very practical doctors that are just sort of like, I don't know what that is.
Marc:Let's see if we can figure it out.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:Well, that is good.
Guest:That is good.
Marc:So what was the treatment that led you to?
Guest:I had to get a radical hysterectomy, ultimately.
Guest:And, you know, that's a difficult surgery for any woman, but for one who had never had children like myself, it's a particularly bitter pill to swallow.
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:I was 42 when I was ultimately diagnosed.
Marc:Were you planning on having children?
Guest:I just met someone that kind of made me realize what other women were talking about when they say, I want to have his baby.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I'd never felt that before.
Guest:I was driven to have a career.
Marc:This was after your husband?
Yeah.
Guest:This was after my first husband.
Guest:Now, my gay ex-husband.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Who I love dearly.
Marc:Not gay during the marriage.
Guest:No.
Guest:But he was beginning to- Show signs.
Guest:Reconcile that he was maybe bisexual, but never acted on it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Loved our life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And loved me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We were active sexually.
Guest:So he was upset when I busted up the act and kind of stopped talking to me.
Guest:And then when I got the cancer, one of the silver linings was that in that moment he burst into tears when he was told.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All of his anger melted away and all that was left was the love.
Guest:And then I wanted to write a book about my experience so what happened to me wouldn't happen to other people by means of misdiagnosis and mistreatment.
Guest:But then I realized that what happened to me has happened to millions of Americans.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And so I knew that the book was not the end, but just the beginning of what was going to become a life mission.
Guest:And Peter and I started to build our relationship up again on a new shelf.
Marc:And it's great.
Guest:It is.
Guest:We work together now where we did happily divorce together.
Guest:Oh, yeah, that show went on for a while, right?
Guest:Yeah, it was three seasons.
Guest:Three seasons, yeah.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:And now we're doing the Nanny Musical for Broadway.
Guest:The Nanny Musical?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Well, I think, I mean, everyone's excited.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:It's going to be great.
Marc:Yeah, and who's going to play the Nanny?
Guest:That is yet to be seen.
Guest:You haven't attached anybody?
Guest:We've got Rachel Bloom to write the music from Crazy Expo.
Marc:Sure, I've talked to her.
Marc:She's been in here.
Marc:yeah i bet everybody's been a lot of people have been here or at the other house or in the house oh this is a new house this is a new house and i was doing it in the house for a while while they were working on this back area oh i had to make this into a house like it was just a garage that had been made an illegal room by the people before me and i got tagged so i had to make this a house now there's a kitchen in there oh that's how to make it a house are your parents still living yes
Guest:So do they come in?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:They've both come, but this wasn't ready yet, and I don't know.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:My dad, he had a hard time with the stairs.
Marc:That's where the other bedroom is.
Marc:And I have no problem putting them up at a hotel down the street.
Guest:Right, right.
Marc:I don't need them in the house.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Are your folks alive?
Guest:Yes, thank God.
Marc:Both of them.
Guest:Yes, and still madly in love with each other.
Marc:That is something.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Mine are not.
Guest:Oh, they're not together even?
Marc:No.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Marc:No, it would be more sad.
Marc:When did they split, though?
Marc:When I was like 35.
Marc:I was older.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:It wasn't a young... It was still a problem of figuring out who I should live with at 35.
Guest:Truly?
Marc:No.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:Well, somebody once said to me, you know, gullible is the only word that's not in the dictionary.
Guest:And I said, really?
Guest:Really?
Marc:So getting back to the treatment, though, in terms of changing your diet, because that's sort of where we were going and incense and essential oils and healing things that a lot of that stuff, because I have my own feelings about it.
Marc:I go in and out of that stuff.
Marc:But sometimes it is about believing, right?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, everything is about believing, of course.
Guest:You know, if you believe you're going to die, you probably will have less of a fighting chance than if you believe you're going to live.
Guest:I try to only eat organic.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That makes sense.
Guest:Oh, so that makes sense to you.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And also I detox my home.
Guest:I don't spray for pesticides.
Guest:No, that makes sense.
Guest:All of the cleaning products and gardening is organic.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I'm on board with that.
Guest:So we're on the same page.
Marc:Yeah, because that stuff is real.
Marc:That's the cancer schmance away.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I'm just talking about like the air freshener.
Guest:That's essential oils.
Marc:Essential oils.
Marc:I don't know if I believe how much of bacteria it's killing, but that's just me.
Guest:Oh, well, I mean, you know, I don't think that it's going to really do the job that, you know, if you really...
Guest:clean surfaces and things.
Guest:But I think that this is an airborne issue that we're currently dealing with with COVID-19.
Guest:Yeah, why not?
Marc:Have some myths in the thing.
Guest:Yeah, what's the downside?
Marc:Yeah, there's no downside.
Marc:It smells nice.
Marc:Fuck it.
Guest:It does, exactly.
Marc:Where do you stand on turmeric?
Guest:I think it's wonderful.
Guest:It's anti-inflammatory.
Guest:I was married to an Indian.
Guest:That was my second husband.
Marc:Were you guys married?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Why?
Marc:I didn't know if it was clear whether you were married or not.
Guest:That seemed to be unclear.
Guest:Well, we'd never filed with the state, but we were wedded by a Jewish gay minister and a...
Marc:Oh, so you never filled out your paperwork, but you got married.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You never registered.
Guest:Right, with the state.
Marc:Right.
Guest:We ultimately decided that, you know, it was too much.
Guest:We had corporations.
Guest:It was too complicated and not necessary.
Marc:What did that guy do?
Guest:Well, he was a computer systems inventor, and he was working on a health program.
Marc:So he was the guy you met that you wanted to have babies with?
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, that was another guy.
Guest:No, this was 20 years ago.
Guest:He's now having a baby with someone else.
Guest:He was 16 years younger than me.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:So he's now in his mid-40s.
Marc:What did that guy do?
Guest:He became a writer, producer of television.
Marc:And you guys dated for a while?
Marc:16 years younger than you?
Guest:Four years.
Marc:Four years?
Guest:That was fun, right?
Guest:And the cancer was part of that journey.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm very, very, very grateful.
Guest:And nobody could ever say a bad word about him because he was really a doll.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You got the diagnosis when you were with him?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And you know, he was a guy that when he was in college, he was dating a woman whose sister was murdered.
Guest:And she was really flipped out over it and pushed him away.
Guest:and left town.
Guest:And he kind of made a little promise to himself that if ever he's in love with a woman who's going through a crisis, he will not let her push him away, but he will be there to help and support her.
Guest:And I was the recipient of that promise.
Marc:Nice.
Guest:Isn't that something?
Marc:Good timing with your tragedy.
Guest:How life works.
Marc:With your tragic news.
Guest:It's true.
Marc:But you're good now.
Guest:I am.
Guest:I'm 20 years well this June.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:We're going to celebrate with my annual cabaret dinner cruise in New York Harbor for Kansas Schmanza.
Guest:And we serve organic food, of course, because we walk the talk.
Marc:Are you vegetarian?
Guest:No.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:No.
Guest:I love vegetables, and I love salad, and I eat a lot of that, but I'm not exclusively that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But what I do eat has to be very pristinely grown.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Grass-fed.
Guest:Whether it be animal protein.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Well, grass-fed, antibiotic-free, growth hormone-free, pasture-raised, not just grass-fed.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because you want to get the earth, and the animal eats a lot of earth.
Marc:Yeah, you want them out there.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Living the life.
Guest:Living the life that God intended them to live.
Guest:Or wild.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Wild, like a wild pig.
Guest:A wild fish.
Marc:Wild fish.
Marc:Oh, yeah, you got to eat wild fish.
Guest:You should.
Marc:I only eat wild fish.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:But you don't know what you're getting at restaurants with the fish.
Marc:You got to ask.
Guest:I always ask.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you won't eat fish that's not wild at a restaurant?
Guest:No.
Marc:It's so rare that they have the wild fish.
Marc:It's got to be seasonal.
Guest:You got to ask every time because that's the only way they'll get the message.
Guest:So wait, what part of New York did you grow up in?
Guest:Flushing Queens, just like the nanny.
Marc:Flushing, Queens.
Marc:I lived in Astoria, Queens.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Wow.
Marc:Flushing, Queens, where the World's Fair.
Guest:So that was a neighboring town, yes.
Marc:Where the Globe is and whatever.
Guest:Yes, the Unisphere.
Marc:Yes, the dead fairgrounds.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:The ghost of fun.
Guest:I got married at the Terrace on the Park, which is still there.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And...
Marc:My parents went to that World's Fair.
Guest:I did as well.
Marc:You were a kid, though.
Guest:Yeah, I was, I think, like maybe four or five or six.
Marc:Are there slides of you at the fair?
Guest:I think there was home movies.
Guest:My dad liked taking home movies.
Guest:And I remember when we went into...
Guest:the General Motors Pavilion, and we all were in a convertible GM car, and they let me sit behind the wheel.
Marc:Oh, you remember that?
Guest:But it was on a track, but it was so much fun.
Marc:You remember that part?
Guest:I do.
Marc:It's weird what you remember from four.
Guest:And we went to Howard Johnson's before.
Marc:Of course, for ice cream?
Marc:Oh, for brunch.
Marc:Did you have ice cream?
Guest:Probably, probably.
Marc:So was your whole family in Flushing?
Guest:No, I mean, I had very close.
Guest:My dad's brother and his whole family, my first cousins, they all lived in Howard Beach.
Guest:My grandmother lived in Rego Park.
Marc:Where'd she come from?
Guest:Well, she was born here.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But her husband, Papa Joe, came from Poland.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Her mom came from Romania, Bobbiesta.
Marc:Bobbiesta.
Guest:And my dad's parents were both immigrants.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think- From Russia or where?
Guest:I think they were, I'm not exactly.
Marc:Have you done the genetic thing?
Guest:Russian, German.
Guest:I'm Ashkenazi, like 99.9%.
Guest:Yeah, me too.
Marc:Yeah, all Jew.
Marc:Just comes back Jew.
Guest:I never get invited on those celebrity shows where they do the.
Guest:I did one.
Guest:They did do it.
Guest:Well, maybe you had a more interesting past than me.
Marc:No.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Nothing came of it?
Marc:I was just all Jew, but there was like... Nothing interesting?
Guest:No, no, some stuff.
Marc:It was that one finding your roots.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:They've never invited me to do that.
Guest:I think they're more into... I think it's tricky with Jews.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, because like...
Guest:Turn off the channel.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:It was actually three Jews on my episode.
Marc:It was Terry Gross, Goldblum, Jeff Goldblum, and me.
Marc:And the tricky thing about Jews is that the records, especially in Russia, they don't go that far back.
Guest:Hmm.
Marc:Because a lot of them were destroyed.
Marc:But it was interesting.
Marc:Of course I learned stuff I didn't know, but I'm sure that there's stuff here.
Guest:But I think they're more into, let's get the African-American who somehow was related to Thomas Jefferson or something.
Marc:Yeah, they all were.
Marc:Thomas Jefferson fucked all his slaves.
Guest:He was prolific.
Marc:So Flushing, Jews.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:And you know, that song that Simon and Garfunkel wrote in My Little Town, that was My Little Town.
Marc:Were they writing about Flushing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love that song.
Guest:It's so haunting.
Guest:They were writing about our neighborhood.
Marc:It's sad, man.
Marc:It's a sad song.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Nothing but the dead and dying back in My Little Town.
Guest:And Jerry Seinfeld came from the next town.
Guest:We both went to Queens College.
Marc:Did you know him?
Guest:I did not.
Guest:But, you know, Ray Romano was in my graduating class in high school with Peter.
Marc:Oh, with your Peter.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I knew Ray back when he was doing comedy.
Marc:His brother's a cop.
Guest:Well, I didn't know him back then.
Marc:You were older than him or younger?
Guest:No, we were the same age.
Guest:We're the same age.
Guest:We're in the same graduating class.
Guest:We're in the same graduation book.
Guest:And I didn't even know this.
Guest:He knew it.
Guest:And so when he came on to CBS to do Everybody Loves Raymond, I was already doing it on The Nanny.
Guest:There we were on the same network from the same high school graduating class.
Marc:But how could people not know you?
Marc:I have to assume that you had the personality you have since you were five.
Guest:Probably, but I, no, I think he knew.
Guest:Yeah, but you didn't know him.
Guest:I didn't know him.
Guest:He wasn't as popular.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You were popular.
Guest:popular but i like i always enjoyed i had three sets of friends yeah the cool kids which were by far were not the most interesting to me the nerds who i love my nerds yeah because i'm an intellectual too yeah and also the like the drama club kids so that those were the three circles
Marc:Yeah, you could move freely throughout those.
Marc:Yes, I was able to do that.
Marc:But Con, there must be a story where you abandon some nerd friends to hang out with the popular friends, or maybe, you know.
Guest:You know, I think that when I was in junior high, or as they call it, middle school now, there was a year that I was friends with two girls.
Guest:And then the following year... Yeah.
Guest:One girl just didn't seem to mature at the same rate as me and the other girl did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we kind of stopped being friends with her.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, you just keep developing, I guess.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, that's natural.
Marc:But you never got into one of those situations where you were the popular one and then you had the one that wasn't popular with a friend and you made some sort of choice.
Yeah.
Marc:And she kind of was saddened and you felt guilty about it for the rest of your life.
Guest:Well, I feel guilty that, you know, I felt like I outgrew Ellen.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I did feel bad about her.
Guest:I was never not nice.
Guest:I wasn't like mean girls.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:It's just, you know.
Marc:You were never a meanie.
Guest:No.
Guest:In fact, I kind of had to learn how to say no and put myself into the equation and do what's good for me.
Marc:Some codependent therapy.
Guest:Codependent is something that I can slip into, but also being a caregiver to a fault of my own.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:So you sacrifice your own sense of self for the other.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Is that what happened with the Indian guy?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:The Indian guy, I learned a lot from him.
Guest:I learned a lot about myself because of him.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Like what?
Marc:How's that happen?
Marc:Was he a mystic?
Guest:I didn't realize that I could still get my buttons pushed and that I would still kind of blame myself for things.
Marc:So you guys got in fights.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And not the first year.
Guest:That was bliss.
Guest:Then the second year was agony and ecstasy.
Guest:And the third year was just agony.
Guest:And then I called it quits.
Guest:And I realized that this creature, you know, I traveled the journey.
Guest:It was a real arc of my character that in the beginning I would think, oh, this guy.
Guest:you know, he gets upset and he just walks out of the door.
Guest:And then I wouldn't hear from him for like two weeks and I'd be like in nuts worrying about him and beating myself up for saying this or doing that.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And from that beginning point, which was very unhealthy for me,
Guest:I began to observe him like a creature, and I realized that he has, you know, he's got his own little problems.
Guest:And that doesn't really make him a good husband or communicator.
Guest:And I gave him several tries each time he wanted to come back, and I let him.
Guest:But then I said, you know, this is beginning to impact my health, and I'm a cancer survivor, so it's too stressful.
Guest:If we get into any kind of an argument, walking out is not an option.
Guest:Working through is the only option.
Marc:Jews don't walk out.
Guest:But then, you know, he wasn't Jewish.
Guest:I know.
Marc:Stay in it.
Marc:We're going to move through this.
Marc:Someone's going to cry, and then we apologize and eat something.
Guest:He was kind of Hindu.
Guest:We got a Hindu priest too.
Guest:But then I realized, okay, this isn't enough for me.
Marc:That's funny that you thought that your buttons couldn't be pushed after a certain point.
Guest:Well, because I thought I had worked through some of the issues that I realized.
Guest:And that was the opportunity.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And I ended up making an appointment for us together to go see this shaman psychologist.
Guest:Oh, come on.
Guest:And he didn't want to go.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I went myself.
Marc:To a shaman psychologist.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:How is that different than a regular psychologist?
Guest:I mean, I had done very serious Jungian for over a decade.
Marc:Oh, wait a minute.
Marc:Now, so Jungian, what is that process?
Guest:Is that dream-based?
Guest:They do like to talk about the dreams.
Guest:Yeah, I just like how- But also-
Guest:You know, she was a very serious, older woman psychoanalyst.
Guest:So you lie down on the couch.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:But it's Jungian as opposed to Freudian.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So you're dealing a lot with... Dreams.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Rather than... Visuals, you know, not trying to explain stuff based on, like, this is your father, this is your mother, you want to do this, you want to do that.
Guest:Well, we went through every member of my immediate family.
Marc:So you did that for 10 years?
Guest:One by one, yes.
Marc:And did that help?
Guest:Yes, because by the time I got to the shaman, I was more spiritual, more of a Buddhist.
Guest:I could talk shorthand to him because I had cut through a lot of the bullshit.
Marc:You knew exactly what you were there for.
Guest:Yes, I just...
Guest:You know, I needed to learn the tools to get you to fill yourself with you rather than from someone else, which is always ultimately going to disappoint you.
Guest:Because they have their own baggage and their own issues.
Marc:You can't control them.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:You can only control you.
Guest:So you have to fill your voids with you.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And that's what I learned...
Marc:From the shaman?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Are you an ayahuasca person?
Marc:No.
Marc:I can't see that.
Marc:I can't see you.
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, I have a lot of friends that are, and I've, you know.
Guest:You're going to sit in a circle out in the woods?
Guest:I probably speak for cannabis, of course.
Guest:But, um.
Marc:It's just so sweaty and messy, and you run around, you throw up.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I am scared.
Guest:I'm a good girl, I am.
Guest:I don't want to be in someone's living room all night.
Guest:And, you know, I've tried some little things here and there over the course of my life.
Guest:But, you know, you get a little older.
Guest:What little things have you tried?
Guest:I tried X a few times.
Marc:That's loose.
Marc:That's not terrible.
Marc:You're not going to lose yourself on X. No, but, you know...
Guest:It's diminishing returns each time you do, right?
Guest:Sure, right.
Guest:Not healthy either.
Guest:No, so that was, the last time was the last time.
Guest:Some people like the mushrooms a couple times a year.
Guest:Mushrooms at the time.
Guest:That's all right.
Guest:I don't do it anymore, though.
Marc:Yeah, what for?
Marc:What do you need?
Guest:No.
Marc:Right?
Marc:So you're in Flushing.
Marc:You went to, where'd you go to college?
Guest:I went to Queens College.
Guest:I walked to college.
Guest:I was so codependent on my parents.
Guest:I mean, I got into NYU too, but I didn't want to schlep.
Marc:What, an hour on the train?
Guest:I'm telling you.
Marc:45 minutes?
Guest:I never backpacked through Europe.
Guest:I never went away to sleepaway camp.
Marc:What'd your dad do?
Marc:What was the business?
Guest:Dad eventually found his way as a systems analyst and ended up working the longest period of time as a civilian employee for the U.S.
Guest:Navy.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And he would analyze all the PXs where they sold stuff for the naval military.
Marc:Wow, that's very specific.
Marc:And your mother worked too?
Guest:Yeah, she worked around the corner when I was young in a discount drugstore.
Guest:And then once I moved out, she got a job.
Guest:I don't remember whether she worked there when I was still home, but then she worked in a bridal salon.
Guest:Then she became a floater in a department store.
Guest:That was after I moved out.
Marc:And they stayed in the same house forever?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No.
Guest:Were they ever in the apartment?
Guest:A small two-bedroom.
Marc:Apartment or house?
Guest:Apartment.
Guest:Then we went into a larger three-bedroom apartment.
Marc:Oh, New York apartment.
Guest:Then me and my sister moved down, and they bought a little townhouse in New Jersey.
Marc:Yeah, what part of Jersey?
New Jersey.
Guest:In where Stearns is.
Guest:Now I can't remember the name.
Guest:Woodbridge.
Marc:Oh, yes.
Marc:Nice.
Guest:I was only there a couple of times.
Guest:They were coming out to California to be with me more.
Guest:And we would go on vacations together.
Marc:They live here now?
Guest:No, I wish.
Guest:They live down in South Florida, but I'm trying to get them to move here.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're locked in down there?
Marc:They live in a place with other old people?
Guest:You know, they're not a senior living, but a retirement community.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it's like 55 and up.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I think that they're ready for senior living.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:But they're fighting you on it?
Guest:Well, it's a big move.
Guest:They love their apartment.
Guest:They live in a condo.
Guest:And they still love each other, thank God.
Guest:But I found a place not far from me, right on the beach.
Guest:And I said, you know, you don't have to make any decisions.
Guest:Don't sell anything.
Guest:Don't do anything.
Guest:Just come out.
Guest:We'll rent it for a month.
Guest:They said we can do that.
Guest:And I'll lease beautiful furniture for the month and we'll fill it up.
Guest:And you'll just have the experience of living there for a month and see if it's something that you can be comfortable doing.
Guest:But now with Corona, I don't want to put them on a plane.
Guest:So it's going to have to wait.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, it sounds like they're occupied and happy.
Guest:Yes, it's just, you know, I'm helping them more and more with their doctors, and I'm always sending them vitamins, and I'm just not there.
Guest:Is your sister around?
Guest:My sister lives in New York, and she has her doctorate in nursing.
Guest:And her husband is a doctor, dermatologist.
Guest:So, you know.
Marc:So they're dealing with her too, right?
Marc:They're dealing with the folks too, or are you the only one?
Guest:She deals with them and talks to them all the time too.
Guest:But I'm more into alternative stuff.
Guest:I want them to build up their immune system.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:The cancer's ransomware.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And follow the Fran plan.
Guest:So I'm always sending them stuff and telling them how to do it.
Marc:Do they do it?
Guest:Yeah, they're coming around.
Marc:Did you grow up?
Marc:How Jewish did you grow up?
Guest:Very, very relaxed.
Guest:Very reformed.
Guest:Like uber reformed.
Guest:My dad has always felt that organized religion is the cause of all wars.
Guest:And he wasn't wrong.
Guest:And so he really liked identifying us with the history of the Jewish people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But not necessarily all the rules and regulations.
Marc:Right, sure.
Guest:And I'm kind of the same way.
Guest:Did you get bat mitzvahed?
Guest:No.
Marc:None of that?
Guest:None of that.
Guest:But my sister had both her daughters bat mitzvahed.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:So she went a little bit the other way after she moved out.
Marc:Not too much though, right?
Guest:She liked being part of a temple.
Marc:Community?
Guest:I think so.
Marc:So when did you start acting?
Guest:Acting, you know, like by the time I was in 10th grade, my first year of high school, I was in the school play.
Guest:And in 11th grade, I started to become part of a special program, the theater career program.
Guest:And so it was modeled off of performing arts.
Guest:And we went for half a day just taking different theater classes.
Guest:And that was where I met PETA.
Guest:No, actually I met him in 10th grade.
Guest:He was the pianist for the show I was in.
Guest:The first husband?
Guest:The gay husband?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You've known him that long?
Guest:Yes, 15.
Marc:That's crazy.
Guest:I know him much longer than I don't know him.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We're soulmates.
Marc:Yeah, it seems like it.
Marc:I mean, that's a long time.
Marc:So that's the only real training you did to act?
Guest:No, I went to HB Studio in New York.
Guest:Who was that?
Guest:And I studied there?
Guest:Herbert Berkoff.
Marc:Herbert Berkoff.
Guest:Yes, and I started with a couple of teachers there.
Guest:Not him.
Marc:Yeah, he was the big guy?
Guest:I don't even know if he was alive.
Guest:I'm not sure.
Marc:You don't know?
Marc:Even when you were there?
Guest:Yeah, I was a kid in high school, and I'd get on the train with a girlfriend.
Guest:To go to HB?
Guest:Saturdays.
Marc:What was it called?
Guest:HB Studio.
Guest:It's still there.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Still there in the village.
Marc:And he was the guy.
Marc:He's the guy.
Marc:What's his name again?
Guest:Herbert Burghoff.
Marc:But you never saw him?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't recall seeing him, but I studied with two other teachers that had quite a good reputation.
Marc:When you were in high school?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:By the time I was in my senior year, I was already Miss New York teenager, first runner-up.
Guest:Seriously?
Guest:And I only entered it because I thought it would help me to get an agent if I won.
Guest:For acting?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So I was very ambitious at a very young age and I did get an agent.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How long did you stay with that agent?
Guest:Probably a couple of years.
Guest:I freelanced in the beginning.
Guest:That was kind of the way you could do that back then.
Marc:What kind of training were these?
Marc:Who were these people that your teachers?
Marc:Were there other people we know in the class or did you come up with anybody?
Guest:I don't recall other people in the class.
Guest:How long did you wait there?
Marc:A couple of years or what?
Guest:No, I think I went for like two semesters.
Guest:To the professional acting class, right?
Guest:Yeah, like two semesters.
Guest:And then I started working professionally.
Guest:I got an agent.
Guest:I had pictures.
Guest:And I started going out and I booked some commercials right away.
Guest:I also did some extra work, which helped get me into the union.
Guest:And then I was off to the races.
Guest:My first job was Saturday Night Fever.
Marc:Would you have like one or two lines in that?
Guest:I was Connie.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I was the one that said he was going to bed as you were on the dance floor.
Guest:We had a little scene.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Is that exciting?
Guest:My dad worked in Brooklyn when we were shooting.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And he came to visit me on his lunch break.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they said, this is a closed set.
Guest:And he said, but I'm the star's father.
Yeah.
Marc:The store is full.
Guest:And they said, oh, right this way, Mr. Travolta.
Guest:And he just didn't bat an eye.
Guest:He just kept walking.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But what was American Hot Wax?
Marc:How big was the part was that?
Marc:Because I kind of remember that movie.
Marc:It was about Alan Freed, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That was a big part.
Guest:I mean, I was a- A teenager?
Guest:I was about to turn 20 when I started that movie.
Guest:I was 19, but almost 20.
Guest:And me and Jay Leno tested together and we became Mookie and Cheryl.
Guest:That was our, I think that was his character's name.
Guest:And we were Alan Freed's secretary and limo driver.
Guest:And he and I were always, you know, like fighting on camera.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We had an antagonistic relationship that ended up with us falling in love.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Really?
Marc:And he must have been one of the only movies he did.
Marc:He didn't do that many movies.
Marc:No.
Guest:We were so young.
Marc:I have early memories of that movie.
Marc:I don't think I've seen it since it came out.
Marc:And that's 1978.
Guest:And we had a kissing scene.
Marc:You and Jay?
Guest:Yep.
Marc:And was that your first kissing scene?
Guest:Yes, it was.
Marc:How'd that go?
Marc:Was it funny?
Guest:Yeah, it was.
Guest:He's a good kisser.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Believe it or not.
Marc:At least he was then.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Probably.
Guest:I think it's like riding a bike.
Marc:Is it?
Marc:Once you're good, you're always good?
Guest:I would imagine.
Marc:It's just funny, these movies, the early movies, because I remember them.
Marc:Because when I was growing up, you were just part of my brain.
Marc:But I don't know that I remembered you specifically in like the Hollywood Nights.
Marc:That was like Robert Woe, right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And Tony Danza.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Michelle Pfeiffer.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And we were all playing teenagers then.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And they were kind of kooky.
Guest:Well, it was one of those movies that took place all night.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Just like, you know.
Marc:But it was a goofy thing, right?
Marc:They weren't scary or anything.
Marc:They weren't a gang.
Marc:I remember someone pissing in the punch.
Guest:Yeah, no, it was a kind of teen comedy.
Guest:That was the genre of American Graffiti, Diner, Animal House.
Marc:Sure, right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, they were making some money over those movies.
Guest:Yeah, and I was lucky that I was there at the right time.
Marc:Yeah, but what were you doing?
Marc:Were you living in New York?
Guest:Once I got American Hot Wax and they flew me out here, I came out to do the movie.
Guest:I was booked to work 10 weeks.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I never went back.
Marc:That was it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I started working and I connected with an agent and manager and Peter came out too and we started living together.
Marc:And you were dating in high school?
Marc:Were you friends in high school?
Marc:It was going on in high school.
Guest:Well, we started out as friends.
Guest:We ended up as boyfriend and girlfriend.
Marc:Was he your first?
Guest:Really, yes.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:Yes, I think there was some heavy making out with the boyfriend before that.
Guest:But no, Peter was really an eye his.
Guest:And I think that we were very blessed because we always had each other.
Guest:We were never promiscuous and we never caught anything, not quite.
Guest:Even though that was the period in the 70s and 80s where we could have gotten into trouble.
Marc:Yeah, so that was it.
Marc:You locked in with him.
Guest:Until we left each other.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:Yeah, then I was a little bit the animal let out of the zoo.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:How old was that?
Guest:That was like 38, something like that.
Marc:That's a good time to be let out of the zoo.
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I was just ready to sell my oats, figure out who Fran was outside of the marriage and outside of being my parents' daughter.
Marc:I think the first time I really remember you registering with me and being like, I love her, was Spinal Tap.
Guest:Yeah, that was cool.
Guest:Right?
Guest:You know, I was doing Dr. Detroit then with Dan Aykroyd.
Guest:And that was kind of a big budget movie for Universal.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my agent said, there's a low budget film, no script, but a lot of really good comic actors.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think you should go up on it.
Guest:It's Rob Reiner's first film directorial debut.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And so I met with him after shooting a night shoot on Dr. Detroit.
Guest:So I was really kind of tired and I sat in Rob's office and I think I was a little low keyed or something.
Guest:He said, you know, you're not what I was thinking of, but I find this very interesting and
Guest:And he ended up giving me the part of Bobby Flettman.
Guest:And people always thought I was a real person in that movie.
Guest:Or I had known a person that I fashioned the character off of.
Guest:Because people said there was a woman in the industry that seemed like me.
Guest:But I actually didn't copy anybody.
Guest:I just did my own thing.
Marc:Yeah, well, it's sort of like there's a lot of you in her.
Guest:Of course, always.
Guest:But not that there's not a lot of me in her, but I wasn't doing an imitation of a real person.
Guest:But, you know, I love live music, and I go to a lot of concerts and things whenever I can.
Guest:And the greatest silver lining of that movie is how many famous recording artists are into me.
Right.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:In that movie.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:They all carry it on their tours.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:It's almost like a superstition not to.
Marc:To have a copy of Spinal Tap?
Guest:Spinal Tap, yeah.
Marc:So you're sort of like a cult hero?
Guest:I am.
Guest:I mean, I've had...
Guest:You know, like Chris Martin come over to my table and profess his love for me.
Marc:No kidding.
Guest:I've been in an elevator with Bruce Springsteen and saying, you know, I don't want to bother you.
Guest:And it's like, Bruce, you could bother me any time of the day or night.
Marc:They all love Bobby, huh?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:It's really lucky for me.
Guest:I mean, that movie was music-centric, as was Saturday Night Fever, as was American Hot Wax.
Guest:And even Dr. Detroit, you know, had James Brown in it.
Marc:Right, yeah, Dan liked to use all those people.
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:He honored the R&B and blues people.
Guest:R&B, yeah, totally.
Marc:So you're kind of a music-based actress for a while.
Guest:Yes, and I like that because I love music, love it.
Marc:But I think somehow or another you became defined as, you are, as a type, you're singular and you're kind of a comedic persona in and of yourself.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And, you know, that started to be- Very distinctive persona.
Marc:But it's you.
Marc:But you never did stand-up, huh?
Guest:It's me with a lot of technique and talent.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean- Sure, of course.
Guest:It's not an accident.
Guest:Everything is a choice.
Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Including making Mr. Sheffield British.
Guest:You know I created that show, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So all of her is in me, but not all of me is in her.
Marc:Of course, yeah.
Marc:But you never did stand-up?
Guest:I do it now.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, now I do stand-up.
Guest:I didn't then.
Guest:Because I was working as an actress, and I didn't want to play that circuit and have to be up late, have to compete for mic time, and it wasn't my thing.
Guest:Now that I'm famous, I can fill a room.
Guest:I don't have to go through those things.
Marc:So where do you do stand-up?
Marc:You do a whole set?
Marc:You got an hour?
Yeah.
Guest:I have about 50 minutes, but I do a schmoozing with Fran show.
Guest:So after that, I do a little one-on-one interview with myself and Peter comes out.
Marc:Who writes the bits?
Marc:You?
Guest:Yeah, me and some of my writer besties that have written for me on and off throughout the course of time.
Guest:Yeah, we'll come up with stuff.
Guest:It's all based off of my life, though.
Guest:Nothing's made up.
Marc:Who goes?
Guest:Well, it depends.
Guest:You know, sometimes it's whoever is in the area.
Guest:Sometimes it's a huge gay group.
Guest:You know, I'm a gay icon.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And sometimes it's, you know, I mean, just like.
Marc:When did you know you were a gay icon?
Marc:When did that happen?
Guest:I was told during the nanny.
Guest:There was a lot of, you know, like, drag imitators of me.
Guest:Doing you.
Guest:And they used to have a parade called Wigstock.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I remember that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then they do nanny...
Guest:viewing parties at the gay bars and people on the night that we aired, they would all go.
Marc:It was a very big show for a lot of people for a long time.
Marc:It's like a defining show.
Guest:It's huge with the millennials today.
Marc:Really, they go back where they see it.
Marc:Is it syndication?
Guest:It's in syndication.
Guest:Right now it's on Cozy as well as Hulu.
Marc:Do you still own it or have a piece of it?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Give that up, baby.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's us and our parent company, Sony.
Guest:And, you know, that's Peter's and my baby.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We gave birth to it.
Guest:We nurtured it.
Guest:We took care of it.
Marc:But you did some TV before, right?
Marc:But not like that.
Guest:That was it, just here and there.
Guest:I did a short-lived series called Princesses, also for CBS.
Guest:I did a lot of pilots that didn't go anywhere.
Guest:And the last pilot that I did, I thought to myself...
Guest:I'm either going to get myself on the inside in a big way or get out of this business.
Guest:Because I can't keep working for people that I feel are not as talented as I am.
Guest:When did you have that realization?
Guest:Before the nanny, because that's what I manifested.
Guest:I gave myself five years to make that happen.
Guest:And one day I...
Guest:After I did this short-lived series for CBS.
Guest:Princesses.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And that was with Twiggy, the one and only, as well as Julie Haggerty.
Guest:And after that, I did another pilot for them, which was like, I think, a spoof on soap operas, a nighttime, you know, single cam.
Guest:That didn't get picked up either.
Guest:Then I thought, well...
Guest:Now I'm going to have to wait a few months before pilot season comes around again to see what's going to happen.
Guest:And Peter and I were breaking stories, coming up with ideas to try and pitch, but not the nanny.
Marc:How long have you been working on writing together?
Marc:How long were you a team in trying to develop stuff?
Guest:Yeah, it was in that window once I kind of said, this is not going to work for me.
Guest:I'll find another way to make a living.
Marc:Oh, because, oh, just by going out and auditioning for you.
Guest:And then we started, he and I started brainstorming and pitching and coming up with series ideas and things like that.
Guest:But when I ran into the head of CBS, it was on a plane to Europe.
Guest:I cashed in some frequent flyer miles and I ended up going to visit- Who was the president then?
Guest:Jeff Sagansky.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I was going to visit Twiggy.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And she was busy, so I was hanging out with her little 12-year-old daughter schlepping her all over London.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Because I was uncomfortable being by myself in a big city.
Guest:I still struggle with being by myself out in the world, but I push myself to do it.
Marc:Was that from like a PTSD thing?
Guest:It's probably a perfect storm of a lot of things.
Guest:Maybe I have a like mild agoraphobia, I don't know.
Guest:But, or...
Guest:And I was a victim of a violent crime.
Guest:Horrible.
Guest:And I am famous.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think that's why I'm going to get a big dog.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, so I can feel comfortable because I like distance walking.
Marc:A service dog?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:That you can bring on the plane?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:What was the process of... Because that violent crime, which was awful, that you've talked about before...
Guest:Yes, and I've written about it.
Guest:I did a chapter in my first book called Bad Things Happen to Good People, and I really can't tell you how many people asked me to sign that chapter.
Marc:Of course, because it happens to a lot of people.
Marc:They don't talk about it.
Marc:They don't know how to talk about it.
Marc:They don't want people to look at them weird or to think of them differently.
Marc:So when somebody speaks their heart and their mind about the experience, it's comforting.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:They feel less alone.
Marc:They feel seen.
Marc:They feel like I'm not the only one.
Marc:Happened to a famous person.
Guest:And if she could get on with her life.
Marc:Well, what did you do?
Marc:Well, what happened exactly?
Guest:Oh, well, we were home.
Guest:It was me, Peter, and Judy.
Marc:Who's Judy?
Guest:Our best friend of many, many years.
Guest:And we were just having dinner.
Guest:The dog was barking.
Guest:I didn't know why.
Guest:I went on the intercom.
Guest:Nobody answered, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they were actually working at breaking down the front door.
Guest:It was two brothers.
Guest:And the rapist was on parole.
Guest:So, you know, it was like an hour, an hour and a half of pure horror.
Guest:And...
Guest:The good news is that they apprehended him, and now he's in jail for like two consecutive lifetimes.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:Yes, closure.
Marc:What about the other guy?
Guest:He went to jail too, but he didn't get the rape charges.
Guest:He just filled up our car and their car with everything.
Marc:That's terrible.
Marc:Yeah, it was awful.
Marc:And that happened before the nanny.
Marc:I mean, this happened before.
Guest:When the nanny started, there was one of those tabloid TV shows that put it out, a segment, like it had just happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And people were calling my parents.
Guest:What is this?
Guest:What happened?
Marc:You hadn't talked about it publicly at that point?
Guest:Um...
Guest:Well, I wasn't really famous until The Nanny.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Guest:It never really came up.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was in maybe my first or second year of The Nanny, I did write the book.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But whenever this came out and maybe...
Guest:Maybe when the book came out, that was when they decided to dig in and see if they could go to the prison.
Guest:It was terrible.
Guest:Nothing really came of it, but that was when I did experience post-traumatic stress.
Marc:So you're saying that the PTSD didn't really kick in until after it became public?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Because I didn't really deal with my pain.
Marc:Yeah, what did you do?
Guest:I just carried on.
Marc:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, we had to go to court.
Guest:We were witnesses.
Guest:I was very instrumental because in helping the police artist come up with a sketch of the guy.
Yeah.
Guest:And it looked like he had posed for it.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Marc:You really remembered, huh?
Guest:Yes, I made a point of remembering.
Guest:And I kind of have a photographic memory, though it's beginning to fade a little bit now with age.
Marc:Yeah, sometimes that's okay.
Marc:So what happened once it started?
Marc:It really hits you.
Marc:You're lucky to be in therapy.
Guest:I've got to move forward a little bit.
Guest:Do whatever you want.
Guest:I have to say, I don't know if anyone's ever said this, but this chair could be more comfortable.
Marc:All right, I'll get some.
Marc:The president sat on that chair.
Guest:Maybe a back thing.
Marc:All right.
Guest:I have a nice picture with Obama.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, he was helpful in me passing a bill by unanimous consent.
Guest:which means all 100 senators said yes, Fran.
Marc:Which bill?
Guest:The Gynecologic Cancer Education and Awareness Act, the first of its kind in U.S.
Guest:history.
Guest:And I was written up twice in the congressional record.
Marc:Well, you worked for the president.
Marc:Weren't you a diplomat?
Guest:Yes, I have a vetted position of public diplomacy envoy for health issues and was sent to... For women's health issues, right, specifically?
Guest:You know, it...
Guest:People always assume that, but I spoke to men and women in our military as well as our allied nations.
Guest:Sometimes it was all women, and people assume that because it was a gynecologic bill that got passed.
Guest:I didn't actually initiate, but I brought it home.
Guest:It's amazing, really, how sometimes the best gifts come in the ugliest packages.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You just don't know what's going to come from the depths of despair.
Guest:But you've got to just play the hand that's been dealt you.
Guest:That's, I think, why I was able to speak, be a public speaker.
Guest:Because you're surviving.
Guest:Yeah, the more I talked, the more I started to formulate a vision of what I think needed to be done.
Guest:And what did you do internationally?
Guest:Well, I spoke wherever I went.
Guest:That's basically it.
Guest:Talking to everybody.
Guest:About your experience.
Guest:It was organized.
Guest:Not just my experience, but take control of your body.
Guest:I was misdiagnosed for two years.
Guest:You have to transform from patient into medical consumer.
Guest:You have to know what the early warning whispers are.
Guest:of the cancers that may affect you are and the tests that are available.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because all too often, they're not even on the menu.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So, you know, that's my goal is to pivot the way people think about their health.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To become more in charge, better partners with their physicians, and to ultimately and most significantly change their lifestyle to a more toxic-free, carcinogen-free, eco-friendly.
Marc:Even just eat better.
Guest:You must start somewhere.
Guest:Give up on all industrial farm foods.
Guest:Sugar.
Guest:They're not serving you or the planet well.
Guest:Well, definitely not highly refined, processed, sugary foods.
Guest:Definitely not sugar, corn syrup, sweetener.
Guest:I had some cookies.
Guest:None of that.
Marc:Last night I had two cookies.
Guest:Two cookies isn't going to kill you.
Guest:Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good.
Marc:I know.
Marc:True.
Marc:So now, all right.
Marc:So the show you're on now, I've talked to Adam Pawley.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:He's my son on the show.
Marc:Yeah, I talked to Dan.
Guest:Oh, Dan Levy.
Marc:Levy, who I knew from when he was younger, a comedian.
Marc:Stand-up, uh-huh.
Marc:And it seems like it's a good role for you.
Guest:Yes, I think for those that love the nanny, it's kind of that character 25 years later.
Guest:And did you meet his real mom?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I've met both his parents.
Guest:They're very sweet people.
Guest:We're not exactly doing them, even though they inspired the role.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You're doing what you do.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Otherwise, why hire me?
Marc:Right.
Marc:But over the course of this, you've done a lot of movies, episodic television, your own show, but you also did a talk show for a while.
Guest:I did.
Guest:Well, that was almost like an experiment.
Guest:I was given 16 hours of airtime.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But that's really not enough to get a daytime audience.
Guest:Did you like it though?
Guest:I did like it.
Marc:Could you see yourself doing that or what?
Guest:Yes, I liked it.
Guest:I like learning.
Guest:I like talking to people.
Guest:I'm interested in people.
Guest:You know, I liked it.
Guest:Yes, I did like it.
Guest:But, you know, you have to have it...
Guest:You have to have a network behind you.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:That's going to give you a good year like they gave Ellen.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Get planted.
Marc:So it seems like you got a little.
Guest:Hard to change daytime viewing habits.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You got a little upset about that.
Guest:No, I'm not upset.
Marc:You would have liked a bigger shot with that particular format.
Guest:I would have liked to have been on NBC.
Guest:And the producers I was working for jumped to Fox because they wanted it too, and that's where their other show was, Wendy Williams.
Marc:So you feel like you got kind of lost in the shuffle or not giving a good shot?
No.
Guest:Well, you know, I think the judgment was off and we paid the price for it.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But then, you know, happily divorce started right after that.
Guest:And that was great.
Marc:And that was the three seasons.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, you and Peter, three seasons.
Guest:Yes, loosely based on our relationship.
Guest:And it was wonderful.
Wow.
Marc:That's enough, isn't it?
Marc:It's not enough for syndication necessarily, but three seasons is enough.
Marc:I'm in a show right now.
Marc:We're in the fourth season.
Marc:It's like enough.
Marc:I mean, you got to do.
Marc:I mean, you did a lot.
Marc:Like the nanny did like 150 episodes, but that was a different time too.
Marc:It was like syndication meant something.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It still means something if you're on network television.
Marc:No, no, I know.
Marc:I know.
Marc:But like the life of a show, like if you've got 100 episodes to sell, right?
Guest:Or like 145 like we did.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, you know, that has a long life ahead of it.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:And if it's a beloved show.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:People loved it.
Marc:And to this day, you make money.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Off of that thing.
Guest:Everybody loves the nanny.
Marc:Everybody loves you, Fran.
Guest:Well.
Marc:But so, are you in love?
Marc:Do you have a man now?
Marc:No.
Marc:I'm not propositioning.
Marc:I'm just asking.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I only have a friend with benefits right now and a gay ex-husband.
Marc:Friend with benefits.
Marc:See, that's the benefit of, like I'm 56, I have no children.
Marc:There's a point you get to, I think, in your life.
Guest:And you're not married?
Marc:No.
Marc:I've been married twice.
Marc:I have no kids because I was a bit of an asshole.
Marc:It takes a certain type of an asshole to have two wives and no children.
Marc:I'm not a guy.
Marc:But I'm happy I don't have kids.
Marc:But the thing I was going to say is that you do, and it sounds like this is sort of where your head's at too, you get to a certain point in your life around self-ownership where you're like, I don't owe anybody my life.
Marc:And if I'm doing something that's not making me happy, why am I doing that?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Right?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And I've thought to myself, I feel like I'm working too hard.
Guest:I'm away from home too much just in dealing with this show.
Guest:Oh, right.
Guest:And I'm kind of...
Guest:wondering the same question, but I'm in it.
Guest:I committed to it.
Marc:Oh, you mean just the time it's taking to promote the show?
Guest:Yeah, because, you know, I mean, I'm a little older than you, but we're... Not that much.
Guest:No, not that much.
Guest:So I think, you know, it's...
Marc:Precious time.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And it's diminishing returns.
Marc:And you don't want to be filled with dread.
Guest:Well, dread for what?
Guest:That I have to go to work or?
Marc:Well, no, I mean like, you know, like maybe I'm just projecting, but like when I have things I got to do that I may not want to do, going to work's one thing.
Marc:But like today, like, you know, like who's this guy?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We're going to talk to who?
Guest:We circled back to you because I couldn't get out here when it was originally presented to me.
Guest:Then I knew that I was doing a bunch of shows at Universal.
Guest:I was the one that said,
Guest:What about that garage podcast?
Guest:Maybe we should, since we're out that way.
Guest:Because I didn't want to not do it.
Guest:I just needed to not go from Malibu to Glendale without having at least a few other things along the way to make it all make sense.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Well, I'm so glad you did.
Marc:But how long have you lived in Malibu?
Marc:23 years.
Marc:So you made it through the fire, huh?
Guest:I did.
Guest:Yeah, I'm in South Malibu, and I was very lucky.
Guest:We all had to evacuate.
Marc:You had a house on some land out there, do you?
Guest:No, I'm on the ocean.
Guest:That's my land.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, it's a huge, great view.
Marc:Oh, and that's beautiful.
Guest:Oh, it's unbelievable.
Guest:It's own world.
Guest:It's wilderness.
Guest:I mean, I see huge wild mammals all the time.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:Seals, dolphins, whales.
Guest:You see whales?
Guest:Flocks of pelicans.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Whales?
Guest:I mean, it's just remarkable.
Guest:You see whales?
Guest:I do.
Guest:It's a rare sighting for me, but I do see them.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, say hello to them for me.
Guest:Yes, I will.
Guest:It's always a religious experience.
Marc:I can't imagine it.
Marc:I've never seen a whale.
Guest:And I'm with you, you know.
Guest:I mean, at this point, I love my space.
Guest:I love my house.
Guest:I love my time with me.
Guest:And so I like, you know, companionship and...
Guest:my friends and my logical friends versus biological family.
Guest:My logical family.
Marc:The ones you choose.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:But, you know, it's...
Guest:It's not a closed issue, but I am relishing the fact that I'm finally at a place in my life where I'm happy to be alone.
Guest:I consider that major growth on my part.
Marc:Look, man, if you're like a person that has had issues with boundaries or codependency or over caregiving, it just becomes like a relief at some point once you have a certain amount of self-acceptance to be like, I don't fucking need that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:To deal with that shit.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Right?
Guest:And I knew when I was getting better because people would, you know, I surrounded myself with, you know, basket cases.
Guest:I needed to be needed.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You're addicted to people.
Guest:And now I don't have that need anymore.
Guest:And when people would start telling me the problem, once I was able to realize that, um...
Guest:It was my way of avoiding my own problems by giving myself a full sense of being together.
Guest:Like having my shit together.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Being there for other people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And once I was able to finally admit that I'm as fucked up as you are, I tell people, you know, all I can tell you is find yourself a really good shrink and lay on that couch and, you know.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Figure it out.
Marc:Who are you?
Guest:Yeah, go for the jugular.
Marc:Yeah, why are you fucked up?
Guest:What's happening?
Marc:Why aren't you- What are you buying into?
Guest:What's the bill of goods?
Marc:Right, but you used to surround yourself with people because of this?
Marc:Like you had people in your life that were in trouble or had problems or were high maintenance?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:Relationships?
Guest:I remember making concerted efforts to meet and make friends with people that didn't need me that I could learn from.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did it feel weird at first?
Marc:Like, how can you not need me?
Guest:No, because at that point, I was enjoying learning from someone else.
Guest:Like, I love when I'm in the company of an alpha female.
Guest:Because it just, for me, it's like,
Guest:You know, I take the ride.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They're always going to ask the right questions, make the good reservation, figure out the best restaurant.
Guest:It's all good.
Guest:I'm totally trusting of my alpha female girlfriends.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:A shout out to alpha chicks.
Guest:Yay.
Marc:Well, I'm glad you're doing well.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And it was nice talking to you.
Marc:I'm glad we talked.
Guest:Oh, it's lovely talking to you.
Marc:You're delightful.
Marc:You are too.
Marc:And good luck with the show.
Marc:I hope they make more.
Marc:Thank you.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Fran Drescher, that voice, right?
Marc:That laugh, right?
Marc:Indebted is on NBC Thursdays, 9.30, 8.30 Central.
Marc:Lovely conversation.
Marc:I'm glad she stopped by.
Marc:I'm now going to play a sad tribute in a very brief way to the great John Prine.
Marc:And then I'm going to go try to get my cat in the box.
Marc:Happy Pesach.
Thank you.
Marc:Rest in peace John Prine.
Marc:Boomer lives.