Episode 1104 - Don Cheadle
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:I am feeling better.
Marc:I am feeling almost 100%.
Marc:I don't know what to attribute that to.
Marc:I told you last episode what was going on and what I was taking and how I was handling it.
Marc:Today on the show...
Marc:Don Cheadle.
Marc:Don Cheadle is on the show today.
Marc:Don Cheadle, who's, I guess there's a new season of Black Monday on Showtime, season two, premiering March 15th, this Sunday at 10 p.m.
Marc:We talked about a lot of stuff.
Marc:Good stories.
Marc:Some great stories.
Marc:Great guy.
Marc:Like before Cheadle came in, I had to de-cat the place because he's highly allergic, I was told.
Marc:There's been no cats out here, but there was a pillow.
Marc:There was a pillow that Buster kind of made his own, that danderized it.
Marc:He danderized, he cat danderized, he busterized it.
Marc:The pillow that's on the seat of the chair over there.
Marc:And so I washed that and I didn't end up putting it there anyways.
Marc:I didn't want anyone's throat to close up.
Marc:But oddly, no allergic problems, but the fucking power went out, man.
Marc:The power went out in this place.
Marc:And I don't know how everything didn't get lost because we were 40 minutes in.
Marc:But I think it's because I have one of these towers that I plug into, you know, where you plug that into the wall.
Marc:And it's got like a built-in battery trip going.
Marc:One of those things where it's like this giant thing that you plug into.
Marc:like a power strip times 20, but it's got a battery in it, and I think that saved us.
Marc:I think that saved the Cheadle Marin discussion.
Marc:I've got a lot of tech in here, man, if I think about it.
Marc:I got the headphone amp.
Marc:I got the Zoom backup.
Marc:I got the EPM6 mixer here.
Marc:I got Apple.
Marc:I got nine backup drives so we don't lose anything.
Marc:I got the Google Assistant to help me out with stuff during the intros.
Marc:That ought to be fun, right?
Marc:See what happens with that.
Marc:Tuesday night, man.
Marc:I'm going to do the Bon Scott tribute.
Marc:Where the fuck is that happening, man?
Marc:The Avalon?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Go to deandelray.com.
Marc:The Bon Scott tribute.
Marc:There might be a couple tickets left.
Marc:Let me ask... Hey, Google.
Marc:Where is the Dean Del Rey Bon Scott tribute?
Guest:Dean Del Rey's tribute to Bon Scott of ACDC comedy and rock show is located in the Avalon, Hollywood.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:My special...
Marc:End Times Fun premieres tomorrow.
Marc:And I guess I'm maybe I'm not as look.
Marc:I'm nervous about it because I'd like I'd like people to see it.
Marc:I'd like a broad swath of people to see it.
Marc:I put about two years of work into.
Marc:The special and weaving it together.
Marc:So everything sort of connects and hangs together like a singular piece.
Marc:I recorded in a beautiful little theater downtown L.A.
Marc:And I got to be honest with you, if if this doesn't provoke something.
Marc:In somebody in a large way, then I clear my relevance is in question, not because I'm trying to.
Marc:It's just I watched it again and I realized like in my own sort of a smooth way, I kind of.
Marc:I push buttons on all levels and all directions, but I'm doing it in a sweet way.
Marc:Some of this shit in the special is pretty heavy.
Marc:It's pretty over the top.
Marc:The closer is almost operatic in its construction.
Marc:I guess when you do something in this day and age...
Marc:like a special, you want it to land, man.
Marc:You know, I just want it.
Marc:And I know you guys listen to me, and you know that it's going to be on, but I want it to go out there in a big way, and we'll see what happens, I guess.
Marc:I've done all I can, I think.
Marc:I think I've done all I can.
Marc:I think I'm going to ask a couple of my buddies to maybe put it out.
Marc:Help me tweet it out there.
Marc:I'd like I'd like to hear the opinion of Jason Zinneman over there at The New York Times just because it's not even that it's it's not the promotion thing.
Marc:I like critics to deal with it so I can get a sense of it.
Marc:I respect intelligent critics, and if they are actual critics and not just reviewers, I can learn something about what I've done.
Marc:I don't really know what I've done.
Marc:Even when I sent a link to Brendan McDonald, the producer of this show, my business partner, who has known me forever...
Marc:and seen me through a lot of different material, his take on some of the stuff I did in the special was a way of looking at it that I hadn't looked at it.
Marc:There was something that he saw, and I think it's in there, but I like the fact that I put this stuff together, I put it out there, and I really, I can't see it the way you guys see it or react to it the way you guys react to it.
Marc:All I know is I'm thrilled that it's going to be out there tomorrow.
Marc:I'm excited to hear what people think about it, you know?
Marc:All right, let's do...
Marc:Come on, man.
Marc:My special's on tomorrow.
Marc:I can't be expected to keep my thoughts together.
Marc:I made cabbage today.
Marc:How do you make cabbage?
Marc:Hey, Google, how do you make cabbage?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I've got a recipe called Southern Cabbage Recipe from Divas Can Cook.
Guest:Does that sound good?
Marc:No, I'd like Indian Cabbage Recipe.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:I've got a recipe called Indian Cabbage and Potato Curry Vegan from the Wholesome Fork.
Guest:Does that sound good?
Marc:Yeah, but I don't have time right now.
Marc:No problem.
Marc:All right, so let's... I did make cabbage.
Marc:Here's how I make it, because some people seem to like my recipes occasionally.
Marc:I take a head of purple cabbage and a wok.
Marc:And in the wok, on high heat, before I lower it a little bit, I put avocado oil.
Marc:Then I throw, I would say probably a tablespoon of black mustard seeds in there.
Marc:And when they start to pop and fizzle, I throw in maybe a tablespoon and a half of...
Marc:cumin seeds, whole cumin seeds.
Marc:And when they brown a little bit, I throw the shredded cabbage into the wok, which is kind of unruly.
Marc:Crank it down to about medium high and then try to toss that shit.
Marc:You know, give it, let it simmer and then toss it around.
Marc:It'll start to shrink and shrink.
Marc:And then you toss it and you toss it and you get an, you know, almost soft.
Marc:Get that cabbage al dente, the purple cabbage.
Marc:And then I hit it with probably a quarter cup plus
Marc:a little more of apple cider vinegar and steam it out with the apple cider vinegar, toss it around in that, and then cover it and turn the heat off so it gets all soggy after it steams in the apple cider vinegar.
Marc:I make that like twice a week, man.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:A little Marc Maron recipe for you.
Marc:So let's do some more of these horrible text emails.
Marc:Do you want to?
Marc:I think we've been having a pretty good time with these.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:I'm a personal trainer at a popular gym in Philadelphia.
Marc:I meet with new people of all walks of life every day and give them one free workout to check out our program.
Marc:This soft young man was 20 minutes late to the workout and then proceeded to send me a text clearly meant for his friend.
Marc:I'm not losing sleep over this, but honestly, he could have apologized.
Marc:All right.
Marc:And here she sent a little screenshot of it.
Marc:Hey, overslept a bit.
Marc:I'm leaving my house now.
Marc:Should be there in 20.
Marc:Trainer says, okay, thanks for letting me know.
Marc:And then the guy says, yo, my trainer this morning had the fattest ass, thick white john, no titties, and a fat face, but her legs were like, whoa.
Marc:And then she goes...
Marc:Wrong chat, my friend.
Marc:And he sends for those half confused, sad faces, emojis.
Marc:He goes, well, this is very embarrassing.
Marc:Guy talk.
Marc:Hope you understand.
Marc:And then she says that was a complete cop out and honestly angered me more than the content of the text.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:Well, what happened?
Marc:Did you stand up for yourself?
Marc:This is the end of the email.
Marc:You got to give me a follow up on that.
Marc:That was it.
Marc:You didn't.
Marc:What?
Marc:You didn't say, you know, you know, go fuck yourself.
Marc:You shouldn't talk like that.
Marc:I mean, I guess men are going to talk, but I mean, wow.
Marc:But that was the end of it.
Marc:OK.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Fine.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That was a rude.
Marc:I would not have liked that text to come at me.
Marc:This was a good one.
Marc:Subject line text gone wrong.
Marc:Thanks to WTF.
Marc:Oh, I'm involved.
Marc:My friend Sabra and I are avid listeners.
Marc:Our daughters are 12 and have grown up together.
Marc:So our families are close.
Marc:One thing we bond over is WTF.
Marc:In fact, Sabra bought me your book for Christmas a couple of years back.
Marc:Anyway, we always text each other if one of us has heard a specific episode or tell each other not to miss episode XYZ.
Marc:Last month, I had sent her a text telling her to listen to the Terry Crews interview.
Marc:I love him in most of his films, but thought the interview was riveting.
Marc:What a life, right?
Marc:She was surprised by my endorsement and said she would listen before we saw each other.
Marc:Here's a text exchange.
Marc:Sabra just listened so much in that one.
Marc:Some crazy shit.
Marc:Then me.
Marc:Nothing like a porn addiction, a football career and a WME agent grabbing your crotch.
Marc:Then I'm shopping at the container store and I get a call from my 12 year old daughter's guitar teacher.
Marc:He's like, hey, it's Kim, the guitar teacher.
Marc:Is everything OK?
Marc:I just got a text from you.
Marc:Is Todd OK?
Marc:Her husband.
Marc:Are you OK?
Marc:I said, shit, that was meant for someone else, and then tried to explain that it was about your show and a guest, which all sounded like bullshit, and that it's Terry Crews who had the porn addiction, and, and, and.
Marc:I was mortified.
Marc:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:See you down the road, Gene.
Marc:Ah, sorry, Gene.
Marc:Pretty funny.
Marc:I think you can recover from that one, though.
Marc:I really do.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Look, folks, I talked to Don Cheadle about a lot of stuff, a lot of great stories.
Marc:You know, a guy who's had that big a career.
Marc:You know, there's a lot to cover, but we landed on some really interesting stuff.
Marc:And I really I was happy I was able to.
Marc:Talked to him about his Miles Davis movie, Miles Ahead, which I loved.
Marc:And we got off on a little bit of a talk about jazz.
Marc:So Cheadle and I had a great time, and you're going to hear it right now.
Marc:His show, you know, the Black Monday show on Showtime, starts this Sunday, March 15th, season two.
Marc:That's the premiere, Sunday, March 15th, at 10 p.m.
Marc:This is me talking to Don Cheadle.
Guest:¶¶
Marc:What happens if the cat, if you get around?
Guest:My throat closes.
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:I start hacking and wheezing.
Guest:Yeah, it's bad.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Like if you wanted to kill me.
Guest:It's a cat?
Guest:You could throw me in a room full of cats and knock the door.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And I probably wouldn't make it out.
Guest:And you've had that the whole life?
Guest:You know, I just started noticing it like when I was in college.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Because I don't have allergies, I don't think.
Marc:But the ones that do that, like guys who have that nut allergy.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:When it's a wrap.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just like.
Guest:And I started to become allergic to cut grass.
Guest:Cut grass?
Guest:Which was not a thing for my whole life.
Guest:How do you avoid that?
Guest:You don't.
Guest:You can't avoid it.
Guest:And I golf.
Guest:You golf?
Guest:So you're just fucked.
Guest:So what do you do?
Guest:Take the Claritin?
Guest:You take a Claritin before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then after you're finished with the round, you kill yourself.
Marc:How long have you been golfing?
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:Let me see.
Guest:Probably now over 20 years.
Marc:Now explain it to me because I know guys that golf and I'm condescending about it.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Cool.
Guest:Let's go.
Marc:And I'm just sort of like, what are you fucking kidding?
Marc:I like that.
Marc:But I understand that it's meditative and it's a solo journey.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you're out there with the cut grass, wheezing.
Marc:And your people and your friends usually.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's a long time.
Marc:So it gives you a chance to talk, hang out, kind of enjoy space.
Marc:Smoke a joint.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Chill.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All right.
Guest:And sort of, I mean, the thing for golf for me is that it really, it just reveals who you are to yourself in a way that it's a physical sort of a manifestation of the things that you're going through.
Guest:Really?
Guest:To me.
Guest:And I think a lot of golfers would agree.
Marc:Okay, so what have you, you're a guy over the last 20 years has also played a broad number of different types of people that I think would show you some different aspects of yourself.
Marc:But you think golf, what is it, the simplicity?
Marc:What have you learned?
Guest:Well, it's so challenging.
Guest:It's the hardest thing to do.
Guest:It's the hardest thing I've ever tried to do physically.
Marc:Have you tried the solo climbing with no ropes?
Guest:I'm black, so I don't even know what you're talking about.
Guest:We don't do that kind of shit.
Guest:Hey, I got an idea.
Guest:Let's climb that mountain face with nothing but chalk.
Guest:Yeah, that's cool.
Guest:No, not for you.
Marc:We don't do that shit.
Guest:So yeah, no, I haven't tried that.
Guest:That would be infinitely harder than golf.
Guest:Yeah, but I mean, but the physicality's not, I guess it's difficult.
Guest:It is because in every other sport, you know, I don't know if you play any sports, any other sport with a ball.
Guest:I've hit a ball, yeah.
Guest:Well, you hit a ball.
Guest:Sure, man.
Guest:So you get to, there's a physics that you get the trajectories coming and you get to move your body toward where the ball is coming and there's a, you know, there's a. Yeah, right.
Right.
Guest:There's an athleticism that allows you to sort of be in the space.
Guest:A golf ball is just sitting there.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:It's so focused, man.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I'm saying.
Guest:It's like, now hit that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It goes from stillness to you being still and now go from still to still to hitting that and then try to move it down the fairway.
Guest:Try to put this in a hole that's this big.
Guest:That's ultimately the goal.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So when you're able to do it, it's usually and do it well.
Guest:It's usually because you have been able to really sort of control all of those demons and all of that noise and all of that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know, they show like the brainwaves for archers and target shooters and people that do that.
Guest:And, you know, Olympic, they did it with Olympic target shooters and their brainwaves when they pulled the trigger.
Guest:Right.
Guest:are like that you know and ours are usually pretty erratic yeah on fire yeah yeah so when you can get into that meditative state i get it it feels great right and you finish and you look back and go oh wow that was a few hours where i was just like in that that's what i can completely appreciate that but do you you don't do any meditating you do that too so you spend a lot of time in this state yeah i try to see like i've been told i need to meditate too how long you been doing that
Guest:I've been doing that.
Guest:I kind of started that in college, too.
Guest:Really?
Guest:A lot of stuff started for me in college.
Guest:I went to CalArts, California Institute of the Arts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was a very mind-opening, mind-broadening experience.
Guest:What year was that?
Guest:This was 82 to 86.
Guest:And where'd you come from?
Guest:I'd moved right from there to California from Denver, Colorado, where I'd lived for the last seven years.
Guest:But I come from Kansas City.
Guest:I'm born in Kansas City, Missouri.
Marc:Kansas City, Missouri.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:and so go chiefs yeah are you a big chief fan yeah you got to be right i don't know much about it but i assume that you kind of lock into your states yeah so you were born in kansas city and your family was just there the whole time we moved around a lot why um i was sort of an education brat i wasn't a military brat
Guest:My father was- Chasing tenure?
Guest:Chasing degrees, chasing scholarship money, chasing grants.
Guest:What was his focus?
Guest:He's a psychologist.
Guest:Really?
Guest:He's a psychologist.
Guest:So he sees patients?
Guest:He did.
Guest:He's since retired.
Guest:In the house?
Guest:No, never in the house.
Guest:That's always a weird thing, right?
Guest:The office is in the back.
Guest:Especially if you ever know the dude.
Guest:Because my dad, he did family and teams.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:So a lot of family therapy.
Marc:So a lot of families in the community be like, yeah, we sent our son to your dad.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it didn't work out.
Guest:Well, I actually visited my dad at his office one time, which was right down the street from my school.
Guest:And I did recognize a kid that was coming out.
Guest:And he was like, what are you doing here?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was just going to say hi.
Guest:He's like, don't ever come by the office unannounced.
Guest:It's like, Jimmy is really fucked up, isn't he?
Guest:What did he tell you?
Guest:I know you guys have that client doctor thing, but I'm your son.
Guest:Come on, give it up.
Marc:Nothing, huh?
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:So that's what he was doing.
Marc:So when you were growing up, he was still getting the degree and figuring that shit out.
Marc:And he ended up in Denver to set up a practice or he finished his education there?
Guest:Yes, he set up a practice.
Guest:In Denver?
Guest:Yeah, in Denver, Colorado.
Guest:Man, that's like, it's hard to breathe there.
Guest:Oh, I loved it.
Guest:You did?
Guest:I mean, it was amazing to be an athlete and, you know, play soccer in Denver or basketball.
Guest:You're a soccer guy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And then come to LA or come to another state and just be able to run forever and people were like winded.
Guest:You're like, why are you guys winded?
Guest:It's like a lifetime of training.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Limited oxygen.
Guest:I had no idea that it was actually going to be beneficial down the line.
Guest:I mean, I go back now and I can't breathe at all.
Guest:But when I was coming up, it was very, it helped me a lot.
Marc:So you were in Denver from what age to what age?
Guest:So from sixth grade to senior year, six years, so like 12 years old to 18 years.
Marc:So that's kind of your state in a way.
Marc:I mean, that's formative years.
Guest:Formative years.
Marc:You have a love for Colorado?
Guest:I do have a love for Colorado.
Guest:My dad still lives there.
Guest:My brother and sister still live there and nieces and nephews.
Marc:So you're there a lot.
Guest:I go back, yeah.
Marc:So did you act in high school?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:That's sort of where the bug actually hit in elementary school, but I had a very good high school teacher, Kathy Davis, and she introduced us to Uta Hagen and Stanislavski.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So that was the beginning of the mind-blowing?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It wasn't basic shit.
Marc:It was the real shit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She was a real, she was really smart.
Guest:She told me about CalArts.
Guest:I had no idea that you could actually pursue, you could go to school and study it.
Guest:I was just like, what am I going to do now?
Guest:She's like, you know, you can continue your education in this field.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:Were both your folks around then?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And were they supportive of it?
Guest:Super supportive.
Guest:They drove me to school.
Marc:That's the benefit of having parents in education, parents with a broad understanding of things, where they're like, yeah, just do that.
Marc:They were probably a little nervous.
Guest:Definitely nervous, especially for CalArts at that time, because it was wide open.
Guest:Really?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:Clothing optional pool and co-ed rooms.
Guest:I imagine it's kind of still like that.
Marc:So that was a trip there.
Marc:I don't know anything about it.
Marc:I don't know if I've talked to anybody who went to CalArts.
Marc:Yeah, I loved it.
Marc:It was like a real old school, hippie school kind of deal or what?
Guest:Well, it was coming out of being Chouinard.
Guest:It used to be Chouinard.
Guest:It was an art school, specifically an art school.
Marc:But is it a state school?
Marc:No, not a state school.
Guest:No, it's private school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, it's just five métiers.
Guest:It's...
Guest:I think now it's maybe a little broadened, but it was just acting, dance, visual arts.
Guest:Animation was a part of the film school and music.
Guest:The music school was huge.
Guest:Where is it?
Guest:It's in Saugus.
Guest:How far is that?
Guest:Right across from Magic Mountain.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:wild so it's like out there yeah it's just and it's a conservatory and yeah you're out there like there's nothing else happening or wasn't definitely when i was there it's built up a little more now but when i was there that was it and and so you just went for acting so it's i imagine it's a bunch of fairly serious experimenting people yeah yeah in a very conservatory sort of a setting and what so each year what do you how does it work what's it what's the structure
Guest:Well, you have classes in movement and voice and speech.
Guest:Then you have your studio time, which is blocks out of the day.
Guest:Then you're doing your plays.
Guest:You're putting those up and then you have to work the plays.
Guest:You have to do the technical stuff.
Guest:And we had Tai Chi, which was amazing.
Guest:So I learned Tai Chi.
Guest:Tai Chi was a requirement?
Guest:It was a requirement for the first year students.
Marc:So that kind of was the beginning of the mind opening.
Guest:All of it, yeah.
Guest:The beginning of all of it.
Marc:And mushrooms.
Marc:Mushrooms.
Marc:Are you one of those guys that does those yearly?
Marc:No, I haven't done that in a long time.
Guest:I've kind of been like, I'd like to do that again.
Marc:Some dudes do it.
Marc:They do kind of like a reboot.
Guest:The micro dosing stuff is very big now.
Marc:Well, yeah, that's a little odd.
Marc:You think that's odd?
Marc:I don't know, man.
Marc:I'm a sober guy.
Marc:So for me, it's like, I don't know.
Marc:Fine.
Marc:I just don't put any of it in.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Because I got the kind of brain where it's like, well, this is a little bit.
Marc:Let's keep going and see what happens.
Marc:Why are we stopping here?
Marc:What's with the little bit?
Marc:I kind of want to feel something.
Guest:Yeah, man.
Marc:I'm not going to underachieve out here.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:So Tai Chi, do you still do that?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So between golf, tai chi, and meditation, you're pretty level, man?
Marc:I think I'm pretty level.
Guest:I think I'm one of the most level dudes that I know.
Marc:Okay, so in college, so the movement thing and you did, did you do like, was it like classical stuff?
Marc:Did you do fencing and stuff?
Guest:Yes, we did stage combat and we did everything.
Guest:I mean, we're doing Shakespeare, we're doing Moliere, we're doing August Wilson, we're doing Arthur Fugard, we're doing...
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Everything.
Marc:Because I was thinking about that, about the roles.
Marc:When you say golf sort of really shows you who you are, but you've stepped into some... I have to assume, and this is kind of... I realized it yesterday, actually.
Marc:I talked to Tandy Newton.
Guest:Mm hmm.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, we were talking about that role in Westworld being informing her about, you know, who she is and what her struggles are and what her fight is.
Marc:So, you know, what, you know, the character was perfect for her because it helped her move through things.
Marc:Did you did you find that?
Marc:Because I don't know that I've talked to actors about that specifically, the growth of self through the roles.
Oh,
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I mean, if you take it seriously and you're really trying to authentically come from a place where you can live in this person.
Guest:And that's what you do?
Guest:You have to find the place where you and the person meet, I think.
Guest:Or I don't know what you're kind of doing.
Guest:It's just like a puppet show.
Guest:You have to really get there.
Marc:Meet that person halfway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So when you're touching that stuff, you cannot help but bring up
Guest:your stuff.
Guest:And now you have to kind of filter through and go, well, I don't need that.
Guest:Let me get rid of that.
Guest:Let me not use that.
Guest:That's me.
Guest:That doesn't have anything to do with this.
Guest:But you have to keep, I think, true to those things that are motivating you and keep touching that place.
Marc:It's a conscious thing though, where you're like, well, that was too much me.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because you can slip into it though, right?
Marc:Like when you're acting, you can kind of like, that last take was me.
Guest:Well, I think by the time you're actually doing it, hopefully you have the script long enough and you've worked on it and you've kind of been able to have it be mostly not you.
Marc:How much do you read the script before you get in?
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:The whole script or just the pieces?
Guest:No, the whole script.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I always find something new every time I read the script.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Can we talk about, I've been trying to figure out how to get into this, but I fucking loved your Miles Davis movie.
Marc:Oh, thank you, man.
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:And I think I saw it twice.
Marc:And because I don't it was one of those movies that, you know, it's sort of on you to figure out what's he trying to do here.
Marc:Right.
Marc:What's going on?
Marc:Like, and it seemed to me that it was sort of a meditation on the man himself.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So it's just sort of like this is an impression, man.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you got the you know, and you've run the whole arc of the Miles thing.
Marc:You've got Miles who is bordering on a comedic character.
Marc:you know, the main guy that you've got, the Miles that you made, you know, he's over the top, on drugs, fashion-wise, isolated, and funny.
Marc:He's genuinely funny, but maybe not on purpose.
Marc:And then all of a sudden, the young Miles shows up in the form of that other cat, and then you sort of kind of try to assess, like, you know, well, what's the riff that got him from there to here?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So what drove you, like, you know, what's your relationship with that dude?
Guest:Well, this was, you know, I grew up listening to his music, you know, introduced to me by my parents.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Digging through their albums and finding Porgy and Bess and going, oh my God, what is this?
Guest:And then that leading me to, you know, kind of blue and then just opening it up to him, to Cannonball, to John, you know, to all of the players.
Guest:But that's where it started when I was, you know, in fifth or sixth grade.
Marc:Because in the last few years, I've started to get into those guys in that trip and try to sort of wrap my brain around jazz without really having an essential understanding of music theory or anything.
Marc:But either you've got a brain for jazz or you don't, right?
Marc:Either it's going to lock in or it's going to make you go like, ah, it's making me anxious.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:People do tend to get anxious sometimes about it.
Marc:But for me, it's just almost like Ritalin.
Marc:It goes on and I'm like, ugh.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:For me, yeah.
Marc:So when entering, and I know this is probably an old news for you, but to take on the subject of that guy, I mean, what was the spark?
Guest:Well, I wasn't...
Guest:gunning for that you know I know a lot of times people are asked actors are asked like is there some guy that you're trying to play or some woman that you really want to do or some project that you can't that you're dying to do he was not on my radar huh other than being some a musician that I was in love with and whose music I had grown up on right um but
Guest:It kept bubbling up.
Guest:It kept being put in front of me in different ways.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Different people mentioning it and going, you know what you should do?
Guest:Just out of nowhere?
Guest:Kind of out of nowhere a bunch of times.
Guest:And then I was working with a couple of writers on another project trying to get it done.
Guest:And had auditioned for something and the writers mentioned it and they said, oh, we're working on this with the family.
Guest:We're actually trying to write this with the family.
Guest:The Miles Davis.
Guest:The Miles Davis biopic.
Guest:And...
Guest:You should think about doing it.
Guest:And I was like, well, I don't really like biopics.
Guest:I don't want to do kind of the traditional cradle to grave kind of biopics.
Guest:That's just kind of corny.
Marc:I don't want to do that.
Marc:It's hard to do that.
Guest:I just don't think you take three minutes in each segment.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I just acted in the Aretha Franklin one.
Marc:But it was smart because it ends at 72.
Marc:And that's a smart way to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Just try to take a moment and explode the moment as opposed to... And that's what I was trying to do with the movie.
Guest:Take this two days in time where he's stuck in this place.
Guest:Is he ever going to get out of this place?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was actually...
Guest:watching the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, and Miles was inducted in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.
Guest:And his nephew, Vince Wilburn, who's one of the producers on the thing, was interviewed, and they said, are you ever gonna do a movie about his life?
Guest:And he said, yeah, and Don Cheadle's gonna play him.
Guest:Yeah, but you had no idea.
Guest:No, I wasn't gonna for that.
Guest:And then it started coming in and people started, you know, it started.
Guest:Well, what are you going to do?
Guest:And how are you going to do it?
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:I'm not.
Guest:He just made a proclamation.
Guest:I haven't even met him or talked to him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So then we met and got together and they sort of pitched their ideas for the movie.
Guest:And they were all kind of standard.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Biopics.
Guest:And I just wasn't interested.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And by the time I was almost at my house in the meeting, I thought, well, nobody's going to do it the way I want to do it unless I do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I called him back and he was saying, I was about to call you and say, nobody can do the thing that you're talking about doing unless you do it.
Guest:And I said, yeah, that's what I think it's going to be.
Guest:And then a short 10 years later.
Marc:Yeah, it happened.
Marc:Now, was the family on board?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:Oh, see, so they dug it.
Guest:I mean, I'm not saying like there was a slam dunk.
Guest:They were like in.
Guest:I mean, there was definitely a come to Jesus, come to Don's trailer on House of Lies set and be like, yo, what the fuck?
Guest:After they saw the script, you mean?
Guest:They were like going, what is this going to be?
Guest:What are you really trying to do?
Guest:And how can you not include this?
Guest:And how can you not include that?
Guest:How can you not include that?
Guest:And I was like, I get it.
Guest:And this is your uncle, your father.
Guest:This is, you know.
Guest:I ultimately want you guys to be down with this take.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And if you're not, that's fine.
Guest:I walk away from it.
Guest:We don't have to do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I said, but I don't think that any movie is going to be his legacy.
Guest:Any movie is going to be his library.
Guest:His legacy is barely his life.
Guest:It's very difficult character.
Guest:I'm saying I wanted the music and the expression like just exactly how you laid it out.
Guest:That was my intention with it.
Guest:I said, I want to make a movie in the spirit of Miles Davis.
Guest:I want to make a movie that feels like him, not just a movie that's about what he did.
Guest:I want to let go.
Guest:This is what it feels like to be in that expression.
Guest:That's what I'm trying to do.
Guest:And that era that you picked is the best because he's jacked up.
Marc:He's out of his mind.
Guest:He may never come.
Guest:He may never play again.
Guest:He cannot play.
Guest:Vince said the first time after that period, when he heard Miles play, that's that scene at the end when he's playing, he said he couldn't produce sound.
Guest:And he said he just cried like a baby.
Guest:And Miles looked at him like, don't fucking cry.
Guest:You know, like, don't...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Pity me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And what was the record that pulled him out of that?
Guest:He did Man With The Horn.
Guest:That was his first thing out.
Guest:And then he went on that We Want Miles tour.
Guest:That's when I actually saw Miles Davis first.
Marc:Oh, so how was that?
Marc:Crazy.
Marc:Saw him in Red Rocks.
Marc:So that was when the horn was way out there.
Marc:He had kind of, you know, he was fucking with it.
Guest:Playing down with the wah-wah pedal and all that stuff.
Guest:But, I mean, the wah-wah he had introduced in the 60s.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But he was, it was that band that was just Mike Stern and Harvey Mason and another Bill Evans, not that Bill Evans, but Bill Evans played.
Guest:Marcus Allen.
Guest:Marcus Miller.
Guest:Miller?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I saw Marcus Miller do an evening of Miles at Lincoln Center recently of Electric Miles.
Marc:It was pretty great.
Marc:It was pretty great.
Guest:Yeah, he and Marcus were very close collaborators.
Marc:And I don't see a lot of jazz, but what I love about watching jazz, like if you get a bunch of guys up there and they're doing this thing and you've got a few different horn players and they're laying down the bass of a Miles riff...
Marc:Is that like there's no other music where a dude will step up and do his thing and get out there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And other dudes are just standing around kind of looking at their horn.
Yeah.
Marc:And this guy's like in outer space.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're kind of like, you know, fucking around and just kind of like looking at him.
Marc:Well, that's so Miles-esque, right?
Guest:Like, I mean, he used to let Coltrane solo for...
Guest:10 minutes yeah yeah and they would be like why are you letting this dude go why are you letting him do that Miles would be like he's looking for something he's searching for something let him go man oh my god it's so wild cause I've been listening to him too lately oh I mean that's but he did get so far out there yes he did right yeah cause I never put it together Thelonious Monk I think really opened him up he said Miles started it but when he started playing Monk just let him go like bananas
Marc:It's so weird because he stopped the dope early on, like Coltrane did.
Marc:Like, you know, early.
Marc:He was like, I'm done with that shit.
Guest:Oh, that was a huge fight between him and Miles.
Guest:That's why Miles kicked him out of his bed.
Guest:For the dope, right.
Marc:Yeah, because I watched that documentary.
Marc:And then he goes on to sort of like, all right, if there's no dope and I got to get there.
Marc:Spirit, God.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I'm going way out on one.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And some of the concert footage of him towards the end of his life...
Marc:It's out there, man.
Marc:You really got to be on board to hold on to that.
Guest:I mean, and the amount of music that these guys have.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, the amount of... It's classical music on the fly.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:It's like being able to play these changes...
Guest:in, you know, milliseconds.
Guest:Crazy.
Guest:And bring all of that music in, quoting classical.
Guest:They can quote classical stuff when you're playing it.
Guest:They're like, yeah, I got all the classical shit.
Guest:I grew up playing all that shit.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, that's how I learned.
Guest:That's how I know this.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Because some people that, when I was doing this, now when you talk about Miles, they don't know Miles pre the electric stuff.
Guest:They don't know the bebop shit?
Guest:They don't know any of that stuff.
Guest:And then there are other guys who are like, that's when we stopped.
Guest:When he went electric, that's when we got off the bus.
Guest:So it's a very bifurcated sometimes sort of Miles fan base out there.
Guest:It's a lot of death metal dudes know, quote, Miles.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Know all of his shit.
Guest:Yeah, I bet.
Guest:From that moment on.
Guest:From the electric.
Marc:Yeah, from the electric on, they're like, whoa, that's when I really like Miles Davis.
Marc:So when you...
Marc:When you're out here at Cal Art and you're, you know, you're blowing your mind, you're learning how to, you know, stage combat Tai Chi mushrooms.
Marc:And you knew about Uta Hagen going in.
Marc:But was there a who was the teacher there?
Marc:What was the basis of your acting education?
Guest:Well, all of the instructors there did both.
Guest:A lot of the instructors would actually direct as well.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So everyone was involved.
Guest:Yeah, everyone's involved.
Guest:Real conservatory.
Guest:Lou Palter, Lou Florimonte, Libby Apple.
Marc:They still out there?
Marc:No.
Marc:Do you go out there ever and do a thing?
Guest:I go out there.
Guest:I'm on the board.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I loved the school.
Guest:I loved the conservatory nature of it.
Guest:I loved just being completely consumed by it, you know,
Marc:All day.
Marc:No other thing.
Marc:You didn't need to learn anything else.
Guest:All day.
Guest:I mean, I wish I had taken advantage of everything that the school had to offer.
Guest:Not that there was a ton of time to do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And not that even at that time did they have any real interdisciplinary sort of programs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Everyone was sort of balkanized in the only thing that they did.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it would have been great to go back there and really get into the music program.
Guest:They have a world music festival every year that's like...
Guest:Mind-blowing.
Guest:And then the dance school is amazing.
Guest:Alvin Ailey comes through.
Guest:There's so many things happening at that school at any given moment.
Marc:I don't take in enough dance.
Marc:Do you?
Marc:Not enough, no.
Marc:But I take in some.
Marc:It's a whole other world.
Marc:All these things are this other world.
Marc:But it's so vital.
Marc:When you watch it, you don't even know why you get moved.
Guest:Yeah, because I think at that level, when you see professionals doing it at that level, it's all kind of, it's not the same thing by any means.
Guest:I'm not saying that visual art is the same thing as dancing, it's the same thing as acting, but when people are at their highest sort of, you know...
Guest:The apotheosis of whatever they're doing.
Guest:It just translates.
Guest:You just feel it.
Marc:Yeah, they've done the work.
Marc:They've paid the dues.
Marc:And now they are an instrument of whatever it is they are doing.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And they're giving it to you.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah, you can feel it.
Marc:Right, exactly.
Marc:Yeah, man.
Marc:I mean, that's something to be said about that because there's a lot of fucking amateurs around.
Marc:100.
Marc:Let's name them one by one.
Marc:Let's start with A. It's a long list.
Guest:Hold on.
Marc:Let me just open Twitter.
Marc:So once you finish school out there, you just come to L.A.?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:I graduated in 86.
Guest:I had started working in 85, though.
Guest:I'd actually gotten a gig before I got out of school.
Guest:How did that happen?
Guest:Did someone come looking?
Guest:It happened because my classmate in my second year is Jesse Borrego, who was on Fame, and he got on Fame, the TV show.
Guest:He got on Fame because he went to an open call, and out of about 3,000 people, they picked him and Nia Long.
Guest:Not Nia Long, sorry, Nia Peoples.
Guest:And we took him to the audition.
Guest:You drove out there?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We all went, you know, we were all going to bum rush it.
Guest:We're like, okay, well, let's do this.
Guest:So we all went down and Jesse was like, Don, sing first.
Guest:Don't dance first.
Guest:You're a better singer.
Guest:You know, you can sing.
Guest:Don't dance.
Guest:And I danced first and I didn't get it.
Guest:But he, he, so we get back to CalArts.
Guest:I was like, how'd it go?
Guest:He's like, it's all right.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Pretty good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So the next morning we wake up and his picture's on the news.
Guest:They have a Polaroid of him on the news.
Guest:They're like, we're looking for this guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because they just took Polaroids.
Guest:He didn't put his, all he put on was Jesse.
Guest:He didn't put a name.
Guest:He didn't put anything.
Guest:So, you know, we saw him in class, like, your picture was on the news.
Guest:Like a missing person?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like, yeah, right.
Guest:Said, no, someone's, they're looking for you on the news.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he finally, you know, our phone rings, we're all suite mates.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The phone rings, they pick it up.
Guest:He's like, yeah, yeah, uh-huh.
Guest:okay cool hangs up he's like i got the job wow like you got what job he's like fame i got the fame job we're like are you serious oh man so we he goes yeah i gotta go down and sign papers and i meet an agent and i guess it's on yeah so we have to go to class and we're standing in class doing our like and looking at each other like why are we doing this
Guest:He just got out.
Guest:He just bounced.
Guest:He's out.
Guest:And so he left and he, but he still didn't have a car, didn't have a ride, so we're still, all of us were very, my friends at school, all of us, we were really, really tight and kind of went anywhere, everywhere together.
Marc:it's interesting so you know there is that moment of sort of like you know that's what you want to do you know he got the job and and you're doing your training but but it is there was never any in your mind there was never anything like a lofty pursuit like you know i don't want to do tv i'm a theater guy oh yeah definitely okay yeah
Guest:I mean, we, and the school discouraged it, I think, rightly so, during, they did not want you going down to L.A.
Guest:to try to book auditions.
Guest:That's why they built the school out there.
Guest:It's all the way up there.
Guest:It's in Saugus.
Guest:Don't go down there.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But no, yeah, absolutely.
Guest:I'll never do a commercial.
Guest:I don't want to do TV.
Guest:I want to do theater.
Guest:So wild, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I did.
Guest:I mean, I used to, when I first met, when I first had agents who were his agents, because when they met us, they were like, well, you guys are all great.
Marc:So yeah, what is the jump of that story?
Marc:So we took him down.
Guest:We went to meet an agent.
Guest:The agent wasn't there at the appointment time.
Guest:So we were leaving.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As we were leaving, he and I and another friend of mine, Patrick, were like, no fake fighting in the court and doing like our stage combat shit outside around the fountains on 9,000 Sunset.
Guest:And she's like banging on the window like, you know, the graduate.
Guest:Don't leave.
Guest:Don't leave.
Guest:She comes down.
Guest:And because I think because she came down and she was outside and she was like kind of in our environment and how we were, we weren't all tight.
Guest:Right.
Guest:How we would have all been probably if we'd get up in the room all nervous.
Marc:So she showed up and you guys had left her and she saw you hanging out.
Guest:She's like, you guys, this is a vibe.
Guest:You guys are great.
Guest:I want to represent.
Guest:All of you.
Guest:No shit.
Guest:And we're like, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I went back to school.
Guest:Jesse went and did the show and they shot in New York for a summer.
Guest:And I was in New York that same summer working at a camp in Scarsdale, working at like a kid's camp.
Guest:I was a counselor at a kid's camp.
Guest:Drama teaching?
Guest:No, just a camp counselor.
Guest:How the hell did that happen?
Guest:Because my friend was like, I can get you a camp counselor gig in New York.
Guest:You want to spend a summer in New York?
Guest:I was like, sure, whatever.
Guest:The Jewish camp?
Guest:No, I don't think it was a Jewish camp.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Although they did call me, no.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But so I saw him in New York and he goes, you haven't called Kay.
Guest:You haven't called our agent.
Guest:She's been trying to put you and stuff.
Guest:I was like, oh, I didn't think she was serious.
Guest:He goes, yeah, she was serious.
Guest:I was like, oh, I'll call her when I get back to L.A.
Guest:So I was just sort of her pocket client and me and a couple other people.
Guest:And she just started sending us out.
Guest:And then we started...
Marc:But you didn't do commercials?
Marc:Is that what you're going to say?
Guest:The first commercial I ever got was an AT&T commercial.
Guest:And it was one where a kid was on the phone and his parents called and he's in college and he's frantically searching around and they're going, how's it going in school?
Guest:And he's acting like they can't hear him because the connection is bad.
Guest:And he's like, oh, you can't hear me?
Guest:And that was AT&T commercial.
Guest:So I'm like, boom, I booked it.
Guest:I'm headed out to go shoot it.
Guest:The pay phone in the lobby of the dorm rings, which could be for anybody in the entire dorm.
Guest:I just have this sick feeling like it's for me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I pick up the phone, and it's my agent.
Guest:She's like, oh, so glad you answered.
Guest:I said, what?
Guest:She goes, they don't want to use you for the commercial.
Guest:I said, why not?
Guest:She goes, they don't want to portray a black kid as failing out of school.
Guest:I said, so they're going to fire the black kid?
Guest:I understand, but it seems kind of counterintuitive if they're trying to hurt black people to hurt this black people.
Guest:But that was the first commercial I got.
Guest:And then I never did a commercial for many, many years.
Marc:Isn't it weird how things have shifted around people's perception of selling out?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a strange thing because I think, I don't know, I think we're roughly the same age probably.
Marc:Maybe you're a little younger.
Marc:I'm 56.
Marc:But there certainly was a time as a talent or an artist or whatever early on where you're like, fuck that shit, man.
Guest:Oh, for sure.
Marc:Punk rock all the way, no selling out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But now it's like people will fucking do anything as long as they look all right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Like, you know, if they can transcend the bullshit, make it funny or make it cute, you know, they're game to do whatever.
Marc:I'm not sure exactly when that happened, but it happened.
Guest:I think this sort of being platform agnostic helped all of that stuff.
Guest:You know, once movie actors were doing TV shows and once- I think that's true, yeah.
Guest:They're like, oh, so-
Marc:Because you remember when stars would sneak off to Japan?
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:To do commercials?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you'd see these weird commercials of big movie stars selling yogurt?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:What the fuck?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Hey, that guy just made a billion dollars in Japan.
Marc:Would you do it out here?
Marc:Hell no.
Marc:No, man.
Marc:There's no place to hide now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Can't hide.
Guest:No, exactly.
Guest:So what was the first role?
Guest:The first role I ever got was to play Juicy Burger Worker in the movie Moving Violations.
Marc:Oh, Juicy Burger.
Guest:Juicy Burger Worker.
Marc:Juicy Burger Worker.
Marc:I didn't see that movie.
Marc:You didn't?
Marc:I'm sorry, man.
Marc:I was going to go back and watch all your movies.
Marc:No, this was fun.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I just walked out.
Guest:fuck you fuck your podcast no man I'll see I'll watch it now we'll watch it together please don't we'll watch it together please don't watch that movie can you watch it no I don't watch anything I'm in ever I mean if I have to sometimes you know to look at cuts and things like that but I don't I don't enjoy it no
Marc:What does it make you feel?
Marc:Are you the kind of guy that like you watch yourself and you feel you can go back into that moment and then you re-judge the moment?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So it's not just a general like, oh, I suck.
Marc:It's just sort of like, I could have hit a little hard.
Marc:And why'd they pick that take?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All of that.
Marc:But you were in Colors.
Marc:I was.
Marc:I can't remember the role, but it wasn't huge, right?
Marc:Rocket.
Marc:One of the gang guys?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And that was Dennis Hopper?
Marc:He was Pivotal.
Marc:Pivotal gang guy.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But Dennis Hopper.
Guest:Yeah, Dennis Hopper.
Marc:Directed it.
Guest:He did.
Marc:I remember being very excited about that movie.
Marc:And Haskell Wexler shot it.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I remember being very excited to see Hopper direct again.
Marc:So you're working with Penn.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And you got to... Now, when you're like that... He's my age.
Marc:He's not that older than us.
Marc:No.
Marc:But he was the shit, right, for a long time.
Guest:And we were, because he was in character all the time, there had been some things where we were like...
Guest:Sean had like roughed the dude up for real kind of on set and in character.
Guest:And he had done, and he and Robert, there was a scene where my friend has played high top, Gwen Plummer played high top and they get in a fight and there was some real shit that happened in the fight.
Guest:We were just like waiting for that to happen because we were just going to all jump him if something happened.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:We were like, oh, it's on if this dude does it.
Guest:Because like three of my friends were in the movie and we're like, we're going to fuck this dude up.
Marc:So all in character though?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:We were going to be like, we're in character too.
Yeah.
Marc:Sorry, man.
Marc:It's method shit.
Marc:Yeah, we were all in character.
Guest:We just all, like, shot you in character.
Marc:Was there a learning curve?
Marc:Were you, like, nervous about it?
Marc:Like, working with directors?
Guest:No, I was working with the gangbangers.
Guest:I wasn't worried about the directors and the actors.
Guest:I was like, I'm working with gangbangers for real gang members, like, that would really...
Guest:gangbang on you for real.
Marc:So they used the real dudes in that movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I remember one of the guys in my gang, his name was J-Bone.
Guest:I don't know if Jeffrey's still around.
Guest:I hope he is.
Guest:But...
Guest:the first day we i get in my wardrobe i'm sitting out on this bench we're like just getting ready getting dressed to do this big group scene yeah so i'm sitting by myself just trying to be in character trying to figure this shit out and i see this dude across the parking lot and he looks at me and i look at him and he looks at me like oh he's gonna you're gonna stare at me and he walks across the parking lot staring at me i'm like oh this is a real one yeah
Guest:And I'm supposed to be the head of the gang.
Guest:I can't really punk out right now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This is a moment that's really going to be telling about how this is going to go.
Guest:So he walks all the way up to me.
Guest:He's like, what's up, cuz?
Guest:I was like, what's up?
Guest:He's like, what set you from?
Guest:I said, oh, I'm an actor.
Guest:I'm not a gangbanger.
Guest:I'm an actor.
Guest:He's like, oh, yeah.
Guest:I was like, yeah.
Guest:He's like, all right, let's see what the fuck was up.
Guest:I was like, and he walked away.
Guest:I was like, fuck, day one.
Guest:Day one.
Guest:So then we have a scene.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Yeah, this is day one.
Guest:So then we have a scene in the van where I'm supposed to tell him we do a drive-by on his blood, and they're all hoo-ri in the back, and I'm supposed to tell them to shut the fuck up because we're getting ready to do this thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So we rehearsed it.
Guest:I'm like, shut the fuck up.
Guest:So...
Guest:And it's late in the morning.
Guest:You know, it's late.
Guest:We're punched.
Guest:Everybody's like tired.
Guest:We want to go home.
Guest:It's where we are.
Guest:Though we're using this gang that we're using.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're in another gang's neighborhood.
Guest:It's a whole thing.
Guest:The locations people had no sensitivity to where we were crossing lines.
Guest:None of that shit.
Marc:Do you find that, well, that's just a question about the director.
Marc:Do you think Hopper was encouraging the chaos?
Guest:No.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Hell no.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:All right.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Nobody really, once we realized, it was like, oh, this is beef.
Guest:This could really be a problem.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we were like, what's up, J-Bone?
Guest:And he's like, we in, you know, we in the Denver Lions area.
Guest:We're not supposed to be out here right now.
Guest:I was like, oh.
Guest:So anyway, we're doing this scene and I tell him to shut the fuck up.
Guest:And then he starts laughing.
Guest:He's like, shut the, man, you sound soft as fuck.
Guest:Shut the fuck up.
Guest:You sound like a little bitch.
Guest:shut the fuck up nigga please and so i was like no for real jay won't shut the fuck up because we have to do this he was like what and he leans he's in the back seat and he leans up in my ear he's like i'll smoke you in this fucking car right now cuz you think i give a fuck about this movie i think i'll kill you right now i was like oh and he and i'm like i know he's good for it i know he's not just talking shit he's
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He probably would do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Everybody gets quiet in the car.
Guest:I'm like, oh, man.
Guest:I'm like, it's my line.
Guest:I'm on a set.
Guest:You're in a movie.
Guest:I have to say this.
Guest:He's like, say it again.
Guest:See what happens.
Guest:I dare you, nigga.
Guest:Say it again.
Guest:Like, I have to say it.
Guest:What are you talking about?
Guest:So we go back.
Guest:Action.
Action.
Guest:cut don what's up you didn't say the line i'm like no it's it's okay go back he's laughing he's like yeah that's right you better not say it i have to say it so we do it one more time and i kind of get it out yeah he doesn't say anything and he's get out of the car he's like you punk motherfucker you better be off the set before i get out of my costume i'm like god damn i get killed on a movie set
Marc:Your second movie.
Guest:Second movie.
Guest:I'm going to lose my life saying a line that I have to say in the movie.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I hustle off the set.
Guest:But after that, I think because I said it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was like.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You're all right, man.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He just had to sweat me.
Guest:And then another day he takes my call sheet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's like, let me see your call sheet.
Guest:I give him the call sheet.
Guest:He starts walking toward this alley.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, where are you going?
Guest:He's like, you just kind of gesture me like follow me.
Guest:I'm like, oh, man, it's the okie doke.
Guest:It's about to go down in the alley.
Guest:So we go in the alley and there's this older black lady standing there dressed like in church clothes and everything.
Guest:He's like, it's my mom's, man.
Guest:Oh, hello, Mrs. Washington.
Guest:How are you?
Guest:Nice to meet you.
Guest:And he's like, yeah, I just wanted you to meet my mom.
Guest:She's like, that's it?
Guest:Go on.
Guest:Get the fuck out of here.
Guest:He couldn't just say, I'll come meet my mom.
Marc:Everything's got to be hard.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's fucking amazing.
Marc:So that's sort of a, that's an interesting entry.
Marc:Yeah, it's Trial by Fire.
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:It's the Crucible.
Marc:And then you just kept going, man.
Marc:And so when do you think the point was where everybody knew who you were?
Marc:Was that from Devil in a Blue Dress?
Guest:I don't know if that's happened yet.
Guest:I can still roll around pretty incognito.
Guest:That's a good thing.
Guest:No, I love it.
Marc:Are you kidding me?
Marc:Just to be able to work like you do, have the respect that you do.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Oh, shit.
Guest:What the fuck was that, dude?
Guest:Maybe we were supposed to change the subject.
Guest:Whoa.
Guest:For everybody listening, we just went black.
Marc:But not all of it went black.
Marc:It was the lights because it- Oh, you were still up and going?
Marc:Well, for some reason, the computer and shit was still on, but the mics went down and the lights went off.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But the box is in here.
Marc:That's some weird shit.
Marc:Poltergeist.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:So, oh, but we were talking about- But should we change the subject?
Guest:Is that a sign?
Marc:Well, we talk about being able to be incognito.
Marc:To be able to have a life.
Marc:Maybe that's the word you're not supposed to say.
Marc:Maybe it's like Beetlejuice.
Marc:Maybe my phone did it.
Marc:I don't even know what my phone does.
Marc:Shut off everything.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:It's like when you ever turn on Siri and you don't know it and all of a sudden talk to you.
Marc:Yeah, that's not good.
Marc:I just told it to shut the lights off in the house.
Marc:But no, but I think that because I actually did watch Devil in a Blue Dress the other night because people I've talked to, they're like, that was the first time I remember that dude.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, I think I got a lot of that.
Guest:I think people said that.
Guest:I think Boogie Nights.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There were a few sort of things kind of in a row.
Guest:It depended on who you were.
Guest:For some, it was picket fences.
Guest:For some people, it just depends.
Marc:That was the other thing, too.
Marc:You'll do TV.
Marc:It's like right from the beginning, back and forth, whatever comes.
Marc:If the role is good, you'll take it.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And I used to, like I was saying earlier, I used to drive my agents, when I realized I had agents, crazy because the first few years that I was in L.A., during pilot season, I left to go do theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And they were like, what are you doing?
Guest:This is the height of when we can get you a gig.
Guest:I was like, there's this great role.
Guest:What was it?
Guest:In this play.
Guest:Well, I was working a lot with Joanne Echolaitis.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And worked at the Guthrie with her, worked at the Public...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Worked at the Goodman in Chicago.
Guest:So being a theater baby, these were all, you know, sort of the crown jewels of places that I wanted to work as an actor.
Guest:So I'm like, I'm not going to say no to going to work at the public.
Guest:Right.
Guest:To maybe get a pilot on some show that it's probably going to be shitty.
Marc:Isn't that true, though?
Marc:Isn't that weird once you realize that, that you're going to go out and read for these pilots and you're going to go spend five minutes in a room with a bunch of suits and then you're going to have to go back again three or four times for three weeks of bullshit and then not get something where you can be on stage doing the thing?
Marc:That I love to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, that doesn't even make sense to me.
Guest:They're like, well, this is the grind.
Guest:This is what it is.
Guest:You have to do that.
Guest:I was like, well, I'll get to it.
Guest:I don't think Hollywood's going anywhere.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'll be back in three months, but I'm going to go do this.
Guest:Do you remember what play it was?
Guest:Did Cymbeline at the Public.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Tis Pity, She's a Whore at the Goodman.
Guest:Oh, at the Guthrie, I did a show called Leon and Len's Bushner play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So you were really doing it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I worked a bunch at another small theater in Minneapolis called Mixed Blood that I just loved.
Guest:So I just kept going back there and doing stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And all during like the busy, busy season.
Guest:But I drive across, you know, I drive from here to Minneapolis by myself.
Guest:Another really sort of solo journey.
Guest:I just loved every aspect of that time in my life.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't have to make any money.
Guest:You know, if I made $500 a week, I was like, that's good.
Marc:Well, it's nice.
Marc:I think that's probably why you're the actor you are in the sense that like, you know, you didn't pollute your brain with the sort of like putting the ambition over the craft.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like just sort of like, fuck it, I'll take, let's just work, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, you really appreciate it.
Marc:I think it seems like your character in the sense, or who you are, it's like with golf, you know, to sort of like, to focus on, like, I'm going to drive out.
Marc:I'm working the thing.
Marc:I'm on my own, looking at the stuff.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Going to show up.
Marc:Looking at me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you go to the theater for the first time, do you go walk around?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:The stage.
Guest:It's the best, right?
Marc:It is the best.
Marc:It's the best.
Marc:When I do stand-up, man, like the sound check when you just walk out.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sometimes I'll have them, like, play some music.
Marc:On the system and just sit there by myself and listen to the music.
Guest:No, there's nothing like a theater.
Guest:There's nothing like a theater.
Guest:Real theater.
Guest:The magic that happens in there.
Guest:It's the best.
Marc:But Boogie Nights, like you bring up Boogie Nights and like that moment where you're sitting there with that James wig on.
Yeah.
Guest:That's a great moment.
Guest:That was a great moment.
Guest:That was a great directing moment for Paul.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why would he?
Guest:Because he's like, okay, so we're sitting.
Guest:He goes, okay, I'm in this spot.
Guest:He goes, all right, so in this take, you're just kind of sitting there, just like out of your element, like second-guessing this look.
Guest:He goes, I want you to just don't do anything.
Guest:Just do nothing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I do it, and he cuts.
Guest:He comes over.
Guest:He goes, that take you were kind of doing nothing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just want nothing.
Guest:Like just a blank.
Guest:I just want you to be nothing.
Guest:Just nothing.
Guest:Why?
Guest:I was like, be nothing.
Guest:He's like, yeah, just nothing.
Guest:So he walks off.
Guest:I'm going, be nothing?
Guest:What is he talking about?
Guest:Be nothing.
Guest:I'm sitting there trying to figure out what that means, and he's like, cut.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I got it.
Guest:I was like, oh, you little master, you.
Guest:And that's how it read, dude.
Guest:He just threw a Zen koan to me.
Guest:It just read like, yeah, exactly.
Guest:Like, there's just... Yeah, and it was...
Guest:it was so like vapid it was sad yeah oh yeah like it was that moment where you're like this guy doesn't know who he has no idea that you really thought that that's what you should wear you really thought that's what you should wear I know you're like you know what this one I said poor buck oh man I was on the phone we were talking about you coming over and I just said a
Marc:Oh, is that for the Christmas?
Guest:For the Christmas.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Another horrible moment.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just worked with that guy, that stunt dude who shoots, who starts it all off, who's the dude sitting at the counter who pulls the gun and shoots the guy in Black Monday.
Guest:It was funny.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a big stunt dude.
Marc:Oh, those guys are wild.
Marc:I've interviewed a couple of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, like, Paul Thomas Anderson, like, I've interviewed that dude.
Marc:It's so funny, man, because... He's great.
Marc:He's great, but, like, you know, I never heard him talk.
Marc:I didn't know who he was.
Marc:Oh, I knew who he was.
Marc:I loved his movies.
Marc:I just had this idea that he was some, like, brooding, dark genius.
Marc:But he's this valley goofball.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's just like this... I couldn't believe it.
Guest:No, he's amazing.
Guest:And Carl introduced him to me, Carl Franklin, who directed Devil in a Blue Dress.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because that year, I think I did three or four movies.
Guest:I may have done three or four movies.
Guest:I don't remember.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did Rosewood that same year and Boogie Nights and something else.
Guest:That year, I think, was sort of a watershed kind of year.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:The agents must have been happy that you locked into that shit, right?
Guest:Well, I was doing picket fences for three years before that.
Guest:And then I just quit the show because I didn't like the show.
Guest:And they were not happy about that.
Guest:You're quitting a series that you're locked in job?
Guest:I was like, I just don't dig it.
Guest:I just think there's something else I'm going to do.
Marc:And I could be here for the rest of my life.
Marc:I don't want to do this.
Guest:I'm the 12th person in the cast, which means, A, I was the heart of the movie, which it's the heart of the show, which don't make me the heart of the show.
Guest:I hate that.
Guest:And secondly, I'm the dude that sort of like, there would be so many days where they just wouldn't get to me.
Guest:And I had sat in the trailer for 12 hours, just wanting to blow my head off.
Guest:Thank God I was writing.
Guest:I just killed myself.
Marc:Yeah, it's weird.
Marc:You go inward with the anger.
Marc:I just get mad at whoever, the AD, the fucking, you know, whoever is taking up the time, the director, like, what the fuck is happening?
Guest:The director's like, I don't know.
Guest:I'm here.
Guest:I won't be here next week.
Guest:They just drop me into this shit.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:We're trying to get lit.
Guest:How long does that take?
Guest:Talk to the DP.
Guest:I would just write.
Guest:So I wrote a play and I just spent the time just writing.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:So they produced a lot of your own plays and stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I did that one at that time.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Which one was that?
Guest:It was a play nobody would ever saw.
Guest:It was called Groomed.
Guest:We actually performed at the John Anson Ford Theater.
Guest:It was a staged reading.
Guest:It turned into a play because the actors decided, like, no, we're going to actually get off book and do this.
Guest:I was like...
Guest:fuck it was not the play so once the lead actor did it yeah kind of threw down the gauntlet yeah then all the other actors like well we're not gonna not if he's not on book if i'm not gonna be on book and the ego started jumping out and the lighting person was like well if they're gonna do all that i'm gonna throw some gels in the shit and some gobos and the person was like well i'm gonna build a set if you guys are gonna do all that and it turned into a play wow which was really great that must have been wild to watch that it was wild
Marc:So, I mean, because all that stuff kind of informs, right?
Marc:Because, I mean, like, when you did the Miles movie, I don't know how much other ones you directed before that, but that thing's got a full vision.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Like, you know, you hired the right folks.
Marc:You knew what you wanted to see.
Marc:Whoever your DP was in your set deck.
Guest:Roberto Schaefer.
Marc:Fucking nailed it.
Marc:It's his own world.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, slightly heightened.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like, what's going on?
Marc:Exactly.
Exactly.
Marc:But, all right, yeah, so yeah, you were busy.
Marc:Rosewood Boogie Nights, Out of Sight.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:We were all really close to each other.
Marc:Right, the Rat Pack.
Marc:Sammy Davis, what compelled you to do that movie?
Guest:Well, the same thing that compels me to do any of them.
Guest:The part was great.
Guest:I liked the part.
Guest:I liked the script.
Guest:I liked the cast.
Guest:That was another interesting.
Guest:I don't know if I have any that aren't interesting, but that one I didn't.
Guest:I was offered the part and the script had never really dealt with Sammy's own awareness of the racism.
Guest:It just sort of glossed over that.
Guest:And I was like, you can't have him not be aware of not just the racism that exists outside, but what he's dealing with with his own friends inside the Rat Pack.
Guest:You know, the kind of ribbing that they do and the kind of ways that they talk shit about him.
Guest:It's like that was nowhere in the script about how Sammy felt about that.
Guest:And you read his autobiographies and it's nowhere in that.
Guest:He never really talks about it.
Guest:Well, what was the assumption?
Guest:I was like, I don't care.
Guest:He has to.
Guest:When I watch the routines, I'm looking at him like, no, come on.
Guest:You can't be a black man up there and then picking you up and talking about this being an award from the NAACP and you not feeling some kind of way about it.
Guest:Can we not do that joke tonight?
Guest:Can we not, when I look at all these black people in the audience, you pick me up and...
Guest:Especially at that time, you know, cause this shit was changing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And he was at the sharp, you know, edge of the spear about it.
Guest:So I said, I kind of don't, this has to be a part of the script or I don't, I don't want to do this.
Guest:This has to be in there.
Guest:So it wasn't addressed.
Guest:It wasn't addressed.
Guest:And like two weeks before,
Guest:I got a draft, and it was in there.
Guest:I said, okay, I'll do it.
Guest:And they're like, great.
Guest:Now you have to do gun twirling lessons, drum lessons, trumpet lessons, tap lessons.
Guest:You have to sing on this thing.
Guest:I was like, oh, shit.
Guest:I got two weeks to get ready for this.
Guest:Holy shit.
Guest:Yeah, it was cram, cram, cram.
Guest:But I had the best teacher.
Guest:Savion Glover was my tap instructor.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And could you do it?
Guest:I could do it when I needed to for that, yeah.
Marc:Isn't that weird when you've got that, you know, you can focus your talent.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And that's some of that acting shit that we learned in school.
Guest:That's kind of that, like, let's go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it shows up and you do it.
Marc:And then two weeks later, you're like.
Guest:I couldn't.
Marc:Yeah, I wouldn't do it at all.
Marc:Just possessed.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:What would you come out of that with for yourself?
Guest:Just a real appreciation of his talent.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And how amazing just being able to dig into all of his stuff, you know, doing the research on him and just let you talk about a talent, right?
Guest:Everything, everything.
Guest:It's crazy.
Guest:High level.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's really like a gifted dude.
Guest:And just hear them talk about like Sinatra, whenever he would introduce him, he's like, I'm about to bring this kid on stage and he's going to... You could just see he was like, this kid, you think I can sing?
Guest:He's like, you don't know shit about singing.
Guest:You got to listen to this kid.
Guest:He's going to hit some notes that are going to make you just...
Marc:Well, it's interesting to note, like when you really look at all those guys that there was a sort of not one noteness to them, but they were so dug into their personalities that they were confining.
Marc:Where like Sammy was, you know, he was Sammy, but it didn't confine him in any way to sing or dance or drum or whatever the fuck, be funny.
Marc:I mean, it was like kind of.
Guest:And sort of like you had to.
Guest:I mean, I think that's something, too, that for that era, for a black man, a black woman especially, you know, it's like you had to be 10 times as talented as anybody else you were standing.
Guest:You had to be able to do everything to get half as far as a lot of those guys could get.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And still be sort of like pigeonholed in a racist way.
Guest:Yeah, you're still not going to get ahead.
Guest:And take it.
Marc:But also like take the joke.
Guest:That's what I'm saying.
Guest:That's what I wanted to be.
Guest:That's what wasn't in this.
Guest:And ultimately what it turned out to be is just a moment.
Guest:I said, can I just have a moment where they can make the joke and I'm laughing and then I turn around and just put a camera behind me to see how I really feel.
Guest:And then I can come back and put the mask on again.
Guest:And they did it?
Guest:Yeah, we did it.
Guest:And I was like, I just need stuff like that.
Guest:I just need to show that this person is not completely obtuse and doesn't understand what he has, the Faustian deal he has made to be able to do this and open the door for other people behind him, which is absolutely what he did.
Guest:But that means you're going to take the brunt of it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I mean, it's been a Faustian deal still.
Marc:For sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I forgot you were in traffic.
Marc:That was great.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:And Bo Worthy worked with that Beatty fella.
Marc:Yeah, that dude.
Marc:That must have been wild.
Marc:He seems like an interesting dude.
Guest:Very wild.
Guest:Very interesting dude.
Guest:And we shot that for, I mean, a year off and on for a year.
Marc:He means business, it seems.
Guest:When he decides to direct something, it's like, it's not... And nobody can tell him shit.
Guest:And his deal specifically at that time, and it was maybe a poison pill left by the last...
Guest:The guy who ran 20th at that time.
Guest:He had a deal that he just had to write a treatment and turn it in.
Guest:And he could do whatever he wanted.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:And I think they sort of left it.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Deal with Warren.
Guest:Because he hated the dude coming in.
Guest:And they used to call me and ask me what was going on.
Guest:Because when the suits would show up on set, Warren would just stop.
Guest:He just wouldn't shoot.
Marc:Really?
Guest:He'd just stand there.
Guest:And they're like, what are you working on?
Guest:He's like, I got some stuff.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:So you're going to shoot there?
Guest:He's like, no.
Guest:No.
Guest:And he didn't care.
Guest:He would just stand around until they left.
Guest:And as soon as they left, we'd start working again.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:I guess that dude's earned that.
Marc:He's Hollywood, man.
Marc:He was there at the beginning of the new thing.
Guest:There's so many things that you realize that actually you can do whatever you want.
Guest:A lot of times people just don't.
Guest:If you have the balls to do it.
Guest:Yeah, if you fucking do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:stop me.
Marc:But yeah, I thought that movie was good.
Marc:I think, you know, it's like you definitely felt the point.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So being part of these franchises, I mean, is there, I mean, it seems like the Oceans thing is fun.
Marc:It's a lot of fun.
Marc:I mean, like they all, everybody seems to be having a good time.
Guest:So much fun.
Guest:And you know, people, like Oceans 12 is one of the movies that people will just come up to me in my face.
Guest:Is that the Andy Garcia one?
Guest:I hate that.
Guest:Oh God, I hated that second one.
Guest:That one sucked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, okay, cool.
Guest:Um,
Guest:Can I come watch whatever you're doing at your job and critique you?
Marc:But it's like they don't look at it in the same way you look at it.
Marc:I don't know why people think they can do that.
Marc:But they think you must feel the same way or that you have some distance from it or whatever.
Marc:Or I don't give a shit what you think.
Guest:You're not a real thing.
Guest:You're sort of a prop that says stuff and walks around.
Guest:But that, yeah, that was Jerry Weintraub, bless his soul, was, you know, produced that one really like old Hollywood.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We just were treated amazingly and everybody had their families over.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:It was nice to be able to have that experience.
Guest:And we were really sort of cordoned off.
Guest:I mean, you know.
Guest:Paparazzi is an Italian word.
Guest:We were in Italy and they had to kind of give us an entire floor where nobody could come and then we had the roof and they would put a, there was a bar up there.
Marc:So real first class Hollywood treatment.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Nice.
Marc:It was great.
Marc:And what about these Marvel movies?
Marc:They're fun too.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In different ways.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a different, it's completely different, obviously.
Guest:Super technical and a lot more.
Marc:But did you see that coming?
Marc:Oh, hell no.
Marc:I mean, it's crazy.
Marc:I mean, like you're in, you're one of the guys.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it happened.
Marc:And it's a great thing, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't watch them and I've been critical of them because it's not my thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I haven't really seen any of them, but it seems like the people that are in them, it's like, why the fuck wouldn't I do that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, and it's, again, it's one of those things where we all, you know, we all really vibe each other and have a great time around one another.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there's so many of us, you know?
Guest:It's like being a troupe.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's crazy.
Marc:It's like a theater troupe.
Marc:It's like its own little community.
Marc:It is.
Marc:And then like the, I guess it seems that, well, just from what I see publicly, that the experience of Hotel Rwanda kind of blew your mind to a point where it activated you on a level you probably didn't even know was in you.
Guest:100%.
Marc:What did you know before you did the movie about the genocide?
Guest:Very little.
Marc:See, isn't that wild?
Guest:Very little.
Guest:And then I started to do the research, and then, you know, saw the front line piece on it, which was devastating.
Guest:And just started meeting, you know, I met Paul, who came out, who I portray in the movie, and I got to meet him, and just...
Guest:Yeah, getting into the story was, yeah.
Guest:I didn't know anything about it.
Guest:I only had cursory knowledge of it.
Guest:And then it was, yeah, it took me to a completely different place.
Guest:And then doing it and seeing the effect that it had on people whose...
Guest:stories hadn't been told and people who you know the survivors of the genocide a lot of them were extras in the film and i couldn't believe they wanted to be a part of it yeah and they were saying no we want it out we want the story to be known and it's important to us and we want to participate in it and it's a cathartic you know it's a healing for us in a way to uh to go through it oh man it's just like
Guest:Your neighbors.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:People you know, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that is somewhat emblematic of how these things go around the world.
Guest:It's very often your neighbor.
Guest:It's very often people that you are commingling with in different communal situations.
Guest:And then they've turned on each other.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:You've been otherized and it's on.
Marc:Yeah, otherizing business.
Marc:That's a good word for it.
Guest:Is that your word?
Guest:No, I can't take credit for it, but that's really what it is.
Marc:Because we're seeing it everywhere now.
Marc:Absolutely.
Guest:Everywhere.
Guest:That's what you have to do in order to be able to do what you need to do.
Marc:Dehumanizing them enough to... You're a thing.
Guest:If I turn you into a thing, I can do anything I want to.
Guest:I can get rid of you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and nobody's going to care.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So how are you active now with that stuff?
Guest:Well, I still work with Sentinel where we, one of the things that we did at the time and are still doing is there is a satellite that, you know,
Guest:goes over that area in Sudan and Darfur.
Guest:And we were able to piggyback on that and capture images from what's happening in the border.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So when there are raids and there are things.
Guest:At that time, we're just warehousing this material and trying to collect evidence in case there ever was a moment when assets happened.
Guest:Bashir is now going to The Hague to be tried for these crimes against humanity and for genocide.
Guest:But at the time, that was not happening.
Guest:We were trying to pressure the world community to act, and now it finally has.
Marc:Years later, now all the information's in, CIA involvement, whatever the fuck was happening.
Guest:Everything was happening.
Guest:And they were our allies at one point, quote unquote, because we were getting intel from them about terrorism.
Guest:So it was a blind eye toward whatever you're doing to your citizens as long as we're getting information that we need to fight terrorism.
Marc:There's got to be some assets involved there, too.
Marc:It's got to be something.
Guest:It's all crazy.
Guest:And then the main rebel leader then becomes the head of the government.
Guest:It's just all mixed up.
Guest:And again, this is not something that is unheard of when these incidents happen.
Guest:There's always other actors involved that have their own agendas.
Guest:And the people are always the ones in the middle that are just getting swiped around and bandied about.
Marc:Yeah, there's a detachment on behalf of the power, right?
Marc:Like, you know, there's the immediacy of the murdering.
Marc:But then, you know, a couple, whoever else is involved, if there's enough detachment, it's just numbers.
Marc:It don't matter.
Guest:Yeah, and who steps into that void once that bad guy's gone?
Guest:Now who are the good guys are coming in?
Marc:Because it was a very destabilized— And how long is it going to take before they go bad?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Guest:I mean, that's the.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So trying to still figure out and to not be this sort of patriarchal and like we're going to tell you how to run your country and we have the best ideas for what to do.
Guest:We went around.
Guest:I was George Clooney, myself, a long distance runner named Tegla LaRoupe, Olympic runner.
Guest:And Joey Cheeks, who was a speed skater, went around during the height of this.
Guest:We went to China.
Guest:We went to Egypt, talked to Prince Mubarak.
Guest:to try and say, you have influence in this region.
Guest:The Chinese had influence because they have deals with the Sudanese people, militaristically, weapons and things like that, and oil.
Guest:And we thought the Arab nations would be able to put some pressure.
Guest:But when we went, first of all, we were the highest level delegation that had ever gone to those areas about it, which is ridiculous.
Guest:Two actors?
Guest:Two actors and two athletes were like the highest level delegation that had ever gone to try to get any...
Guest:movement on it.
Guest:And both of the countries, both of their leadership said to us, who are you to come in here and try to tell us anything America about what to do?
Guest:You guys think that you have the best track record on this to preach from your podium about what we should be doing to curb violence?
Marc:Are you crazy?
Marc:Did you even see that coming though?
Marc:Did that put you in a position of like, what do I really know?
Guest:Well, we're not pushing back on that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're just saying that this is actually really happening.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we're not here to represent or defend things that are happening within.
Guest:American interests.
Guest:We're trying to talk about the people that are here and can you help the people.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they're like, yeah, get the fuck out of here.
Guest:Basically kick rocks.
Guest:Go tell your leadership to do something.
Guest:And during the height of this as well, I was asked to testify for the Senate with John Prendergast and General Dallaire, who was in Rwanda at the time.
Guest:And he was the last UN general who stayed behind when everyone else fled and he wouldn't leave.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:To just talk about our experience in the area and what had happened and what we thought America, quote unquote, should do or what our government should do.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I was called in to meet with Condoleezza Rice because she heard I was coming.
Guest:State Department's like, oh, Condoleezza Rice wants to talk to you.
Guest:Wow, that's pretty heavy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I felt like what it felt.
Guest:I didn't I wasn't cool with it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:What am I supposed to do?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I go sit outside her office and it's like being called to the principal's office.
Guest:You know, I'm out there.
Guest:I have to wait for a while.
Guest:She pulls me in and she starts, you know.
Guest:So Jindai Frazier was her head of African affairs and like, tell Dawn what's happening in the region.
Guest:So she said a bunch of gobbledygook I didn't really understand.
Guest:I was like, okay.
Guest:And then she left and then she excused everybody and it was just me and her.
Guest:And a photographer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, OK, well, let me explain something to you, Don.
Guest:She said, what's happening there?
Guest:You know, on the border, there was a when the Israeli soldiers, there was a couple of Israeli soldiers that were taken between the border between Lebanon.
Guest:And do you remember when that happened?
Guest:It was a big international, it was almost a huge international.
Guest:We were like, we're going to go to war over this.
Guest:A couple of Israeli soldiers were kidnapped.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, we had to send, it's the UN, it's not us.
Guest:We're not the problem with the genocide.
Guest:It's the UN.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And I was like, that's like saying, it's my right, it's not me, it's my right arm.
Guest:But they're the problems.
Guest:So when this incident, this international incident went down, we had to send a couple special envoys down there to push through all the red tape and all the bureaucracy.
Guest:I was like, so you just said you couldn't do anything.
Guest:And now you just told me that you...
Guest:I'm not saying this.
Guest:I'm just listening because I want to leave.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And she said, and all you activists out there, all you guys out there talking about George Bush needs to do more to stop the genocide in Darfur.
Guest:George Bush can't do anything about that.
Guest:You guys need to shut up.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:She said it like that?
Guest:Kind of.
Oh, man.
Guest:Basically knock it off.
Marc:Did you feel like, was she scary or just were you like sort of like, or was she just?
Guest:I felt like, I mean, she didn't say let's meet at a cafe.
Guest:It wasn't like, let me call and tell you that.
Guest:I was literally sitting at, in the state department and she was working in her official capacity.
Marc:Yeah, to tell you to shut up.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Which I didn't.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:I went out and told that story at every book drive.
Guest:I was like, if something happens to me, check Condi.
Guest:I am not suicidal.
Guest:I didn't get despondent and shoot myself in the back of the head in my driveway.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it seems like all of that stuff really has to do with people like you or people who are focused on the issue to go out and get shit done.
Marc:I mean, I was talking to Tandy about working with events with the women in the Congo.
Marc:I mean, it's heavy shit.
Marc:They go down there and they create a system of support of ways that the community can start to rebuild themselves.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that's the best thing that we can do, I think, from our positions is really shine the light on and support people who have been doing the work for a long time and attempt to, as best we can with this platform, lend support to the communities that are dealing with it.
Guest:And bring attention to it.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:That's what we can do.
Guest:We're not the experts.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:We're just saying these are the experts.
Guest:Right.
Guest:These are the people who it intimately impacts and affects and they are down there doing the work.
Guest:Don't I'm glad you put a mic in front of me and put a camera in front of me.
Guest:Let's turn it to them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, like get them what they need.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:Yeah, I can't stand when people condescend Hollywood people or celebrities or the acting community for making political statements.
Marc:It's like we're not assuming anything other than the fact that we can say something and be heard and draw attention to something that requires attention.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:We're not saying we're geniuses.
Marc:No.
Marc:We're not saying we're fucking experts.
Guest:No, we're saying here's a problem.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a real problem.
Marc:And yeah, help out.
Guest:Please look over there and you guys do something.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Fuck, man.
Marc:It's only getting harder and weirder and scarier.
Marc:No diggity.
Marc:These last two big cable shows that you're doing, I watched a bit of the Black Monday.
Marc:It's pretty broad, funny shit.
Marc:You're working with Goldberg and Seth Rogen on that?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Where'd that idea come from?
Guest:Those guys?
Guest:No, it came from the writers, David Kasp and Jordan Cahan, who created the
Guest:Right.
Guest:The pilot.
Guest:And they had pitched it early to Showtime and then Billions came out and they were like, well, our show's not going to happen.
Guest:But Seth and Evan had a deal there and David Nevins had a Showtime at the time was asking, what do you guys want to do?
Guest:And there was a bunch of projects.
Guest:They said, we want to do this one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so they got together and David called me and he said, there's this project that I'm, I don't know if it's you.
Guest:Actually, I don't think it's you.
Guest:As I'm saying out loud.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As I'm saying it out loud, I don't think you're the right person.
Guest:So anyway, good talking to you.
Guest:Everything's good.
Guest:And he hangs up.
Guest:I was like, great talking to you, David.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he called me a little later and goes, you know, actually, the more I think about it, I think this could, this actually might be good for you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said, and I talked to Seth and Evan, and they're way into it, and David and Jordan are way into it.
Guest:So let's all get together and meet and see if there's something that can work out.
Guest:And is it similar to the guy from House of Eyes?
Guest:I think people think he's... Some people have thought that.
Guest:I'm playing it, so I don't feel like he's got the same vibe as Marty Azal.
Guest:I think that they're different.
Guest:Marty at least held certain things.
Guest:He had some moral compass, and he had a family, and he had...
Guest:you know, a grounding mechanism that was his dad and his son.
Marc:And it wasn't as broad a comedy though.
Guest:And it wasn't straight up broad nuts comedy.
Guest:This one is, and I think that's why David was really, David Nevins really sparked to it because he goes, this is like a straight comedy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You don't need a moral compass.
Guest:No.
Guest:These guys are bananas.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Let's go.
Guest:More coke, more insanity.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:And so this is the second season's going up now?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Well, I hope it keeps going.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:And, you know, you're constantly working, and obviously we could keep going through a bunch of stuff, but it was great talking to you, man.
Marc:It was great talking to you too.
Marc:Thanks for doing it.
Guest:Thank you for decatting your studio for me.
Marc:You got it, man.
Marc:Now I got to go listen to some Miles.
Marc:Yo, no doubt.
Marc:That was Don Cheadle.
Marc:I really enjoyed talking to that guy.
Marc:And again, his show, the show he's on now, Showtime's Black Monday, season two premieres on Sunday, March 15th at 10 p.m.
Marc:My special, End Times Fun, premieres tomorrow on Netflix.
Marc:Hey, Google.
Marc:Who is Marc Maron?
Guest:According to Wikipedia, Marc David Maron is an American stand-up comedian, podcaster, writer, and actor.
Marc:Hey Google, what has Marc Maron done?
Guest:According to Wikipedia, from 2013 to 2016, he starred in his own IFC television comedy series, Maron, for which he also served as executive producer and occasional writer.
Marc:Wow, that's impressive.
Marc:Hey Google, is Marc Maron a good stand-up comedian?
Guest:Sorry, I don't have any information about that.
Marc:Come on, you can't just say yes.
Marc:I gotta play my Les Paul Jr.
Marc:just to erase that.
Marc:Let's cleanse the palate with some greasy fucking tone.
Guest:guitar solo
guitar solo
Guest:Boomer Larry.