Episode 1103 - Thora Birch
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:Alright, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fuck-o-crats?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Welcome to the struggle.
Marc:Welcome to the show.
Marc:This is a wrestling show, man.
Marc:This is a wrestling show.
Marc:Today.
Marc:That's what I think.
Marc:I'm wrestling with this new guitar, goddammit.
Marc:Wrestling with it.
Marc:It sounds great, but it's hard to play, man.
Marc:And I got to get it.
Marc:I got to get it.
Marc:I got to get the hang of it.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:I'm not saying I don't love it.
Marc:Sometimes you wrestle with who you love and what you love and with who you are.
Marc:I would say most of the time.
Marc:For me, anyway, I don't know what you're about.
Marc:Thora Birch is on the show today.
Marc:You all know Thora Birch.
Marc:We all know her.
Marc:We love her.
Marc:Come on, man.
Marc:She's currently on The Walking Dead, which airs Sunday nights on AMC.
Marc:You remember her from American Beauty, of course, Ghost World, other things.
Marc:That was some wrestling.
Marc:Little bit of wrestling.
Marc:I mean, I could tell you more about it before we talk to her specifically.
Marc:But I was happy to see her, happy she came over.
Marc:So here's what's happening.
Marc:The cold first.
Marc:The last time I talked to you, I was sweaty.
Marc:And the last time I talked to you is before the Joe Biden surge.
Marc:That guy's addled, man, addled.
Marc:What a tragic series of events we're having.
Marc:Fucking pathetic.
Marc:The whole goddamn thing.
Marc:Bernie, clear as a bell.
Marc:It's like a fucking joke.
Marc:Look, man.
Marc:I don't know what I'm going to be able to do.
Marc:I really don't.
Marc:I do know that my special is coming out Tuesday.
Marc:I'll talk to you on Monday about it, but people in the press got it yesterday.
Marc:I'm pretty fucking proud of it.
Marc:I'm glad you guys are going to see it.
Marc:I've shown some friends the thing.
Marc:Gotten some good feedback.
Marc:I don't have many friends.
Marc:I showed one friend and my producer.
Marc:Haven't heard from Brendan yet.
Marc:But Judd said he liked it.
Marc:Had some nice things to say about it.
Marc:He wanted to see it early.
Marc:He's earned that opportunity.
Marc:But I'm excited you're going to see it.
Marc:I'm excited about it.
Marc:Looks different than most specials.
Marc:Shot by the...
Marc:Inimitable.
Marc:Lynn Shelton, who also wants me to inform you
Marc:Apparently to her ears, when I talked about my cold, I was riding it out alone.
Marc:But I was being cared for.
Marc:She made me soup.
Marc:She felt my head.
Marc:She took my temperature.
Marc:She got me stuff from the supermarket.
Marc:Medicines.
Marc:So, I don't want to sound like some, you know, guy out in the wild on my own.
Guest:Out there on the edges of the cold.
Marc:Front by myself She felt like I had revised history Excluded her from the narrative She made me soup
Marc:And she took care of me to, okay, all right, I'm done with it.
Marc:She did, she helped me out.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:So look, I ended up, the guy who I sent that text to, to refresh your memories, basically saying that he's shitty and his wife is shitty after he stood me up a second time, I groveled over text and he said, it's not a problem.
Marc:We ended up having lunch the other day and it was lovely.
Marc:We talked about stuff, about movies, about what we've always talked about the few times we've hung out.
Marc:I don't think he told his wife about it, which is good.
Marc:I explained again that it was a bad day and I was on steroids for my back and I was angry.
Marc:But it was fine.
Marc:And I'm glad because I enjoy him and I enjoy his work and his wife's.
Marc:No, I'm not.
Marc:I'm still not going to say who it was.
Marc:You can guess.
Marc:But anyway, so that worked out.
Marc:Maybe I'll read more of your emails another time.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Moving on.
Marc:So I went to a secret clubhouse meeting last night for the first time in months with my buddy Jerry and got to talking.
Marc:I'm a little consumed, man.
Marc:I'm consumed.
Marc:You know, there's a funny thing my brain does as we head into true authoritarianism with little hope on the horizon, but some excitement.
Marc:Maybe, maybe, maybe.
Guest:I'm not saying it's over.
Guest:Hey, you know, if we can possibly exchange one mentally addled fucking devil for a mentally addled okay guy, I guess that's America.
Guest:But maybe something surprising will happen.
Guest:Maybe the momentum will shift and something fucking spectacular will happen.
Guest:Huh?
Marc:But point being, you know, I fester about bullshit and I'm doing OK for myself and I'm happy with the work I'm doing.
Marc:My specials airing.
Marc:I'm about to start shooting glow.
Marc:I'm challenging myself on a lot of levels.
Marc:I'm trying to wear different glasses occasionally.
Marc:The Aretha Franklin movie was exciting.
Marc:I'm just saying things are going well, but I still, especially with my comedy, because I put so much of my heart and mind into the goddamn stuff.
Marc:It's life or death for me, man.
Marc:It still is.
Marc:That's the tone of the thing.
Marc:A year and a half, two years, I worked on that stuff that's in the special.
Marc:And my fear is it'll just disappear into the churning cloud, into the hungry ether, and dissipate into a million pieces.
Marc:that reorganize themselves as one occasionally for somebody sitting somewhere.
Marc:But that's fine.
Marc:But I'll judge myself against the more successful sorts.
Guest:Hey, man, everybody likes them.
Guest:Not everybody likes you.
Marc:I've never been the everybody likes you kind of guy, but sometimes I still find room in my heart and my mind to resent and spite more successful people that I like.
Marc:So I've got to wrangle that shit, man.
Guest:And then I realized the other day, like most of these cats and kitties, as the great Lord Buckley would say, most of these cats and kitties are 20 years younger than me.
Guest:They're 35, 36, these babies.
Guest:37, maybe.
Guest:38, perhaps.
Guest:These cats and kitties.
Guest:I'm 56.
Guest:They somehow manage their talent on the natural arc of life trajectory.
Guest:I'm in the fucking Hail Mary past trajectory.
Guest:I am the made it in the second half guy.
Guest:The final quarter, I hope not.
Guest:But I can't judge myself on sort of well-managed people who had enough of their shit together to be career focused.
Guest:And they come up in a generation where they realize their brand.
Guest:They realize they are one.
Guest:They realize how to maneuver the content platforms and to sort of like control and put their talent out there in beautiful ways that aren't just sort of fucking throwing ropes out of a hole.
Guest:It's a predominant form of my expression is if I can just get this rope to hook onto something up there outside the hole.
Guest:Maybe somebody will see the fucking rope.
Guest:But I'm out of the hole.
Guest:I've been out of the hole for a while.
Guest:Climbed up out of the hole.
Guest:But I'm constantly repelling.
Guest:That is a double entendre.
Guest:But these younger cats and kitties, they know what's going on because they got their shit together at a younger age than I did.
Guest:So I just have to be grateful and appreciative of the people that I have that dig me and understand me and not turn into it.
Marc:I just want to fuck up my happiness, folks.
Marc:That's all.
Marc:I just want to fuck it up.
Marc:I've just barely figured out how to handle it.
Marc:And there's part of me that just immediately is like, it ain't enough, dude.
Guest:It ain't enough.
Guest:But listen to this.
Guest:Subject line.
Guest:Fuck, man.
Guest:You saved my life.
Guest:Hey, Mark, a few years ago.
Marc:I sent you an email entitled 27-year-old pill guy, two months clean.
Marc:You probably get a ton of these, so I don't expect you to remember.
Marc:But for me, that single email and response helped push me onto a path to turn my shit around.
Marc:I asked you how you got sober.
Marc:I had no money for rehab, and I wanted to see if you thought rehab was a key thing for your recovery.
Marc:I was lying when I told you I was two months clean in my email.
Marc:In fact, I was deep in the addiction.
Marc:You emailed me back with some hard truths.
Marc:The fact you didn't bullshit me with a fluffy response really reinforced the fact that it's all on me to save myself.
Marc:I realized the things that were going to help me were ready for me to utilize.
Marc:You told me if I really want to kick drugs, I needed to, quote...
Marc:Just start doing the things you know you need to do, unquote.
Marc:You told me to bite the bullet and detox all the shit that's been killing me.
Marc:And then you advised me to go to some meetings and listen.
Marc:I printed that response out.
Marc:I kept one in my car and taped one to my bathroom mirror.
Marc:I've now been clean since 2014, 2019.
Marc:I went to meetings.
Marc:I found a great sponsor and I found the will to live.
Marc:As dramatic as that sounds, it's true.
Marc:I was real suicidal there a bit.
Marc:You helped save my life.
Marc:I just want you to know how special you are when you take the time to email your addicted fans a few words of encouragement.
Marc:I'm truly, truly thankful you reached back out to me.
Marc:I don't want to put the burden on your shoulder to save everybody who emails you, but fuck, man, I owe my new life to you and your amazing fucking email.
Marc:They were words from beyond the abyss that it's possible to do this.
Marc:Thank you so fucking much, Mark.
Marc:You know, it's like, who cares?
Marc:You know, it's like, I fucking get out of my dumb head.
Marc:You know, that's the beauty of the thing, man.
Marc:That's the beauty of the thing.
Guest:I don't want to be anybody else.
Guest:I never did.
Guest:Never wanted to.
Guest:There were been times where I wanted everyone to understand me more and I couldn't understand why everybody didn't just get what I was doing.
Guest:But I don't really care.
Guest:That's that.
Marc:So now Thora Birch.
Marc:I ran into her husband.
Marc:She, you know, she'd come up as a possible guest a lot in the past.
Marc:A few times, it just didn't work out.
Marc:I ran into her husband at the comedy store.
Marc:He was like, she's a huge fan of the show.
Marc:We both are.
Marc:She really wants to come on.
Marc:So, like, I didn't know a lot about her, but I was, like, open to it because, you know, I like her.
Marc:I dig Thor Birch, and I wonder what her life was like.
Marc:I knew that she had a difficult past in the way.
Marc:I knew both her folks were involved with adult films back in the 70s.
Marc:I've actually...
Marc:You know, sadly, or maybe not sadly, I remember her mom from Deep Throat very specifically.
Marc:But, you know, but that's, you know, that's her life.
Marc:It's not my life.
Marc:So but I thought there was an interesting story there.
Marc:And if she was ready to come on the show, she was ready to tell it.
Marc:When she got here, it was tense.
Marc:It felt a little tense.
Marc:And I did what I always do.
Marc:And I kind of really stayed open through the whole thing.
Marc:But we did it.
Marc:And we did okay.
Marc:And there were points where I just didn't think she was emotionally comfortable.
Marc:to deal with some of this stuff.
Marc:But this is my conversation with her, and I was happy that she's doing okay and happy to see her.
Marc:She's currently on The Walking Dead, which airs Sunday nights on AMC.
Marc:So this is me talking to Thora Birch.
Marc:Did you try the coffee?
Guest:I did.
Guest:How is it?
Guest:It's nice.
Guest:It doesn't have any of that bitterness.
Guest:It's a perfect medium.
Guest:I did it?
Guest:I made it?
Guest:It's a perfect medium.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Yeah, I commend you.
Marc:Yeah, I forget.
Marc:I never know what's going to happen when I ask people if they want coffee, and then if they say yes, then I'm sort of like, all right, well, it's going to be a bit of a production.
Marc:Like, I have to boil water.
Right.
Marc:There's too many steps.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then it comes out pretty good.
Guest:I understand that it is a little bit of a crapshoot, too, though, because every morning my husband makes the coffee.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he never makes it consistently.
Guest:What is it for?
Guest:It always comes back like not sweet enough.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Or too sweet or like not enough coconut creamer or too much coconut creamer.
Marc:cream he can never get a formula down i'm almost at the point where i'm like honey i'll just go get it but that why would i do that i'm too lazy in the morning right and he makes it though yeah yeah that's a routine like coffee and news oh wait a little closer oh yeah you can move it in too we have a a coffee news routine a coffee news routine yeah coffee news where do you get the news on your phone you just like walk into the phones and figure it out wait now before i ask that what what method are you using to make the coffee
Guest:We have a coffee maker.
Guest:Oh, like a... A standard drip.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Old school.
Marc:Like an Aralco?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I forgot the name.
Marc:No, like you put the filter in and then the bag.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You put the brown... Slide the thing in.
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Scoop in the grinds.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Good.
Marc:Like old timey.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Not too fancy.
Guest:No.
Marc:And where are you getting your news?
Guest:All over.
Guest:I mean, mainly, you know, we'll put CNN on probably just on the TV.
Guest:But then we read like the news news on our phones.
Marc:Just sit there and panic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With the rest of us.
Guest:Pretty much.
Guest:It's like it's a really.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You kind of wake up with a certain amount of optimism.
Guest:And then, you know, 10 minutes later, you're like, oh, right.
Guest:Never mind.
Marc:We're going to die of a virus.
Marc:There's like right when there's even a smidgen of hope.
Guest:It's just like you don't feel like you can believe anything anymore.
Guest:Like, were they really burning cash because that was the only method of stopping an airborne disease?
Guest:Come on.
Marc:What were they doing?
Guest:Like they were burning cash in China.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm like, I don't think that has anything to do with the virus.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:What does that even mean?
Marc:They were burning cash.
Guest:That's what I'd like to know.
Marc:You read that this morning?
Guest:Not this morning.
Guest:I think it was four days ago.
Guest:And I was like, no, that's a huge story.
Guest:Why don't we get more into that?
Marc:So is it like some sort of mystical approach to the pandemic?
Guest:Mystical.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Burning money?
Guest:Their excuse was, you know, well, you know, people touch money and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:Think of all the other things that we touch.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Rid knobs, like doorknobs.
Guest:Sure, knobs, everything.
Marc:And how is it traveling but cash?
Guest:Hard doors?
Guest:They were burning cash.
Guest:Burning cash.
Guest:That has nothing to do.
Guest:It's insane.
Guest:That must be, they must have wanted to do that for some other reason.
Marc:No, I think about money all the time.
Marc:About dirty money.
Guest:Dirty money?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah, but think about money.
Marc:How many times it's changed hands?
Marc:Like any bill you have?
Marc:And who carries bills anymore?
Marc:I do.
Marc:I always carry money.
Marc:For sure.
Guest:But then again, I kind of subscribe.
Guest:I like cash, but I subscribe to the George Carlin...
Guest:view of things where it's like you need a certain amount of germs to keep your immunity up.
Guest:I think that's true.
Marc:Absolutely.
Marc:You can't avoid germs.
Guest:It's always like the healthiest, cleanliest person is going to wind up with a terrible disease.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:No, I agree.
Marc:You got to move through germs.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And if you're on a plane a lot, you get in your share of germs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, that one, I don't like the recycled air on planes.
Guest:I agree with you on that.
Marc:It's the worst.
Marc:And do you ever feel like, you know, when you get out of a plane, you're sort of like, I'm covered in it.
Guest:I mean, yeah.
Guest:I got a shower.
Guest:I think I had like a nosebleed last time I landed.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I was like, oh.
Marc:Dried out?
Marc:Your sinuses?
Guest:Yeah, and I was hydrating during the flight and everything.
Marc:Nothing?
Marc:Didn't work?
Marc:Didn't work.
Marc:So the necklace, is that powerful?
Guest:No, just a fan gave it to me.
Guest:I liked it.
Guest:It was on my bedside table.
Guest:I'm like, ah, just throw it on.
Marc:That's a fan present.
Guest:It was either the necklace or earrings, but I'm down to a single earring on all of my pairs.
Guest:Like I always just lose one earring.
Guest:You lose them?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So I know you grew up here, right?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:The whole life.
Guest:I was born at Cedar Sinai.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you're like full Los Angeles.
Guest:I'm a West Hollywood girl all the way.
Guest:Born and raised.
Guest:Stayed there until my early 30s when I moved into Santa Monica.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So like, but it's kind of interesting because your career, the whole thing, like we all know you from a certain couple of things.
Marc:And then you sort of wonder like, oh, wait, where's she been?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:But also like, I find, I know that your history is sort of dug into the Hollywood of the 70s.
Marc:And you like grew up in that, but specifically kind of porno 70s.
Guest:Well, I was born in 82.
Guest:So by the time I came around, they were just leaving that.
Guest:But all of my parents' prior experiences were wrapped up in that kind of world.
Guest:I mean, they were on the road a lot.
Guest:They did a few films.
Guest:And I feel like their career was built up more than what it was cinematically.
Marc:I mean, it's just out there, so I'm kind of asking or talking about it.
Marc:Because I remember they were in movies that I saw when I was very young, and they damaged me.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:They kind of reconfigured my brain.
Guest:Oh, God.
Marc:But that's all right.
Guest:I'm sure they don't apologize.
Guest:No, I'm kidding.
Marc:No, no.
Marc:And I'm not mad about it.
Marc:I think it helped me on some level.
Marc:It was one of those things where I'm like 13 or 14, and someone had their parents' video cassette.
Marc:But when did you first start to realize that they were in, you know, because your mom was in deep throat, right?
Marc:And so was your dad?
Guest:I believe briefly.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I've never seen it.
Marc:But they had throat.
Marc:You never saw it?
Guest:I saw a couple of minutes here and there, but, you know.
Guest:Why would you want to do that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was more like I wanted to be open-minded enough to think that, like, oh, I could handle this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A couple of minutes into it, I'm like, well, first of all, it's not funny.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I was like, okay.
Guest:You know, maybe I'm good.
Guest:Maybe I'm good.
Marc:That's my mom.
Marc:I don't need to know that.
Guest:No, I didn't get to her.
Guest:I didn't get to her.
Guest:I was just like, yeah, no, I don't think I want to go this far.
Marc:Weird old Harry Reams doing his business.
Marc:Yeah, it's got a rough opening.
Marc:Do you mind if I smoke while you're eating, I think is the first line of that movie.
Guest:Oh, geez.
Guest:Yeah, let's not.
Marc:But I guess the question is, like, growing up in show business and having that element of show business in it, I mean, what do you first remember about your parents in terms of that?
Guest:I was older when it finally really hit me that like, oh no, they had actually been at porn.
Guest:Because for me, it was just the family story was, oh, she had danced.
Guest:You know, she had danced.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Your mom.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She had danced and she was on the road.
Guest:And then also she actually did, after all of that, she became a bodybuilder.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And she won like a number of just like, but before the roided out, they're just like natural female bodies.
Guest:Right.
Guest:She'd do deadlifts and squats and things like that.
Guest:They were very, very in that health kick.
Guest:They did the raw food diet.
Guest:Are they both around?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're both still alive?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Are they still married?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:So so when you when you're old enough to realize that the story was she was a dancer.
Marc:So they'd gotten out of it and they probably did some touring of some kind.
Guest:I guess before.
Guest:Yeah, they did a lot of touring.
Guest:They like I had a show.
Guest:She had a routine.
Guest:Right.
Guest:The show.
Guest:And she would take it all around to all the clubs.
Marc:Like strip clubs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then other ones, too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I know she did a lot up in San Francisco with the Mitchell Brothers at their.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:At their weird showroom.
Guest:Right.
Guest:They were.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They were all close for a while.
Guest:Because, again, all of that was before me.
Guest:And so I didn't grow up in that.
Guest:No, I get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Honestly, I think it was not until I was probably, like, in just my, like, pre-teens and early, early teens where I gleaned from other people.
Guest:Like, it was a little more than what they're telling you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Not just dancing.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so it was, like...
Guest:But, you know, there were only certain stories that I had heard, but nothing.
Guest:They really tried to, you know, when she was done, she was done.
Guest:And she actually kind of went more the other way with me, a very, like, kind of a, you know, strict, pursed, almost, you know.
Guest:very nearly conservative type of upbringing.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, not in a religious sense.
Guest:Right, no, right, right.
Guest:But just more, you know.
Marc:Like discipline sort of like, you know.
Guest:Well, you know.
Marc:Try right and wrong.
Guest:Good.
Guest:Yeah, manners.
Marc:Don't get screwed up.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:And like, you know, you're not going to have sex until you're 82 and that kind of stuff.
Guest:Do you have brothers and sisters?
Guest:I have a younger brother.
Guest:How's he doing?
Guest:He's good.
Guest:He's good.
Guest:He's finding his way.
Guest:He's a great kid.
Guest:He's got a great heart and he's really funny.
Guest:How old is he?
Guest:He's 28.
Guest:Is he in show business?
Guest:He's dabbled, but more like behind the camera and stuff like that.
Marc:But you started acting so young.
Marc:So, I mean, obviously somebody had invested in this idea.
Marc:Or was that you?
Marc:Well, not at four.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But my babysitter actually had, you know, my parents had a no television policy other than Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers.
Guest:But when the babysitter was over, that kind of went out the window.
Guest:The first thing that happened was the television got turned on.
Guest:And so, you know, I would watch TV and I would start mimicking commercials like the old Tali Savalas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Who loves you, baby?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Kojak right right yeah I just kind of remember I think I was imitating the commercials sure yeah and so she thought that was just the most adorable thing in the world and she decided to make our pastime that you know she'd start taking me out on like auditions for commercials the babysitter
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, she can like kind of talk.
Guest:She was close friends.
Guest:It was a babysitter, but also close friends with my parents.
Guest:Like a nanny-ish thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so, you know, what do you think about that?
Guest:And they were like, well, I, you know, we don't know anything about it really.
Guest:You know, from like a child actor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:We don't know that world.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:We know a different type of show business.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So they're like, well, I don't know.
Guest:You know, it seems like harmless enough.
Guest:It'll keep her away from the TV.
Guest:Great.
Guest:So but I started booking commercials like right away.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:So and then then just kind of after that, then it was the first TV show that I did for NBC called Day by Day.
Guest:Was it a guest part?
Guest:Gary David Goldberg.
Guest:I was a mini regular.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, it was the concept was that this.
Guest:lawyer yuppie couple decided to abandon their professional careers and open a daycare in their own home so I was one of their regular students and I was like a sassy blonde kid and did you love it?
Guest:I did.
Guest:I remember my first commercial, which I think I was about four and a half, maybe just about to turn five.
Guest:And my task was to sit in front of an open refrigerator with the content spilled out all around me.
Guest:And I had to eat a raw hot dog dipped in peanut butter, which I just thought was the most fantastic thing in the world.
Guest:And I was like, this is work?
Guest:Like, okay, if this is a job, this is amazing.
Marc:A raw hot dog dipped in peanut butter?
Guest:I mean, well, maybe the taste didn't, you know, but just the process of, like, you know, the attention and being around a bunch of adults.
Guest:You know, I always really kind of identified more with adults.
Guest:I love kids my own age, too, but I cared what the adults had to say.
Guest:I wanted to have a conversation with them.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And so just, yeah, I mean, I...
Guest:I loved it on a very kid-like, child-like level, like as a kid would like it.
Marc:And your parents were like, so they were on board with it, obviously.
Guest:They became on board, you know, because I started booking and then it was always like, well, you know, when it came time for school, it was very important to them that I was in public school.
Guest:I had that experience, and I kind of was like, okay, yeah, school's great.
Guest:People love it.
Guest:When am I going to get back to the set?
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so for a long time, that was kind of, that was my, yeah, let's bounce back and forth between a quote-unquote normal childhood and then go have some fun on a set.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Were they doing any other types of show business?
Marc:Not, no.
Marc:And then eventually they got involved in your career?
Right.
Guest:Yeah, as, you know... As parents?
Guest:As, you know, mama, dadagers, whatever.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Managing you?
Guest:Yeah, for a period of time.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Not a great time?
Guest:No, it was... You know, honestly, it just... They've been retired for a long time.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And do you have a relationship with them?
Guest:I do.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:I do, yeah.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:It's...
Guest:it's okay it's fluid yeah it's good so how does it like how does it unfold like to to like um you did a lot of uh episodic work first or what uh yeah episodic and then you know more commercials and then i was on that show parenthood the first iteration following the film right yeah and uh you know several of your guests came from that
Guest:Yeah, like who else was on there?
Guest:Leo was on, I believe.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:David Arquette.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, I was somebody's kid.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I was one of the family's kids.
Marc:And do you remember all those guys?
Guest:I remember bits and pieces.
Guest:I remember kind of like offset playing on the lot.
Guest:And like, you know, I kind of remember Leo running around with a water gun and stuff like that.
Guest:Just like little bits and pieces.
Marc:Innocent fun.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:And when did you like start doing the movies?
Yeah.
Guest:Nine.
Guest:Well, I did one small independent film when I was six.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I consider my first real film to be Paradise with Don Johnson and Melanie Griffith.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Directed by Mary Agnes Donahue, who's a really good writer as well.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was, I played Billy Pike and that role got me a lot of attention from film people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:likely or plausible that one in the TV world would then go into films.
Guest:But I think because I was so young and the type of character it was, it was a very kind of funny but dramatic performance.
Guest:And so I got a lot of attention from that.
Guest:And then that kind of helped me land like Patriot Games and certain other roles.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:It took off from there.
Marc:Did you feel like you were making your own choices or were your parents like running you?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:No, because there were certain scripts and projects that I, at the time, there was maybe a mini effort to maybe see if I would be interested in doing them.
Guest:And I ultimately put my foot down like, no, I don't like that role.
Guest:I don't feel comfortable doing that kind of role.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And maybe I shouldn't even say, but like an interview with a vampire was one where I'm like, eh.
Guest:Yeah, I was a kid kid.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That kind of adult type of performance was not something that I was comfortable with.
Guest:So I kind of... But then other times, there were just scripts where maybe I was happy to do for one reason or another.
Guest:But at the same time, I probably wasn't even aware of all of the scripts that were being sent to me until around 11, 12.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So then the American Beauty thing...
Marc:It's huge, right?
Guest:It was a huge thing all around.
Marc:I mean, it was like it changed everything.
Marc:It changed the way people shot television, I think, in a weird way.
Guest:Yeah, I still hear commercials with music that's clearly influenced from Newman's score.
Guest:But, yeah, I mean, that just...
Guest:project took up so much of my life for a two-year period.
Marc:So you've done several movies, and so you knew what you were doing.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Did you study acting at all?
Guest:Every day I was on set.
Guest:That was the way it worked?
Guest:Yeah, I didn't study under, or I don't subscribe to a style or anything like that.
Marc:It was just something you picked up.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I understand that.
Marc:I think a lot of people do that.
Marc:I don't...
Marc:It's weird because I've talked to actors about it.
Marc:And, you know, the ones who learn that way, there's always a moment of sort of like, no, I did not even need to do that.
Marc:I just pretend I watch other people do it and I listen and I talk.
Marc:But how did that how did that one happen?
Guest:It was a very long auditioning process.
Guest:Sam Mendes?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was actually one of the first people to go in and have a meeting with him.
Guest:Lester hadn't even been cast yet.
Guest:Oh, Kevin's part?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And Sam was just in this zone where he was like, well, I'm here.
Guest:Spielberg's my guy, and I get to see everybody.
Guest:So let's see everybody.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:But-
Guest:But for me, it was such a personal thing because I so strongly identified with Jane.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, there was talk of maybe like, well, why don't you go in for Angela?
Guest:Because it's like a flashy star making part or whatever.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But I really don't like Angela at all.
Guest:And I really identify a little bit more with Jane.
Guest:And I just feel like I could bring something to that.
Guest:Angela was played by Mina Savari.
Marc:Mina Savari.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What has she been doing?
Guest:She's around.
Guest:She just had a show, I think.
Guest:I don't know if it's still on, but she ran for a couple years, I think.
Guest:So then I go in, I have a meeting.
Guest:That's awesome.
Guest:With Sam or just the casting?
Guest:With Sam and the producers and the casting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then come back for a reading just with Sam, not taped, and another meeting, and then like...
Guest:Five months later, I was doing this TV movie up in Oregon called Night Ride Home.
Guest:And they're like, we need to fly you down here for the screen test.
Guest:You know, there's a couple of pairings, this and that.
Guest:We want to get the combination of the three parts the right way.
Guest:So, yeah, went in, did the test.
Guest:And another month and a half later, you know, I got a call saying, yeah, you know.
Marc:It was crazy that much went into putting that movie together.
Marc:They knew it was going to be huge.
Marc:Yeah, it drove me nuts.
Guest:Did they know it was going to be huge?
Guest:Well, there was a cult-like obsession within the industry for the script itself.
Guest:I still haven't seen, apart from maybe something on the top of the blacklist or something, I still haven't seen a reaction to a script quite like that.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Like there was for that one.
Guest:Everybody and their mother wanted to go in for it or to be a part of it.
Guest:It was just so beautifully written by Alan Ball.
Guest:And it was something that was so unique for the time.
Guest:Or at least that's how I...
Guest:It was a unique style.
Guest:It had so many pieces of other types of film.
Guest:It had a slight noir-ish thing, but it was so character-based.
Guest:It was existential and full of symbolism and all of that kind of stuff.
Guest:And I was like, wow.
Guest:I'm, you know, this is the type of, like, this can be, this is, movies can be like this.
Guest:This is exciting, you know?
Guest:It doesn't all have to be Disney or action pictures.
Guest:Like, this is a real piece of art.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Also, the marketing for it was phenomenal.
Guest:You know, Terry Press had done a great job.
Guest:It was like, we had a great trailer, a great poster.
Guest:Just everything, like, so I think we, it was crafted.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:To have that response from an audience.
Guest:So it was very much by design.
Guest:Could I say that we all knew how big it was going to be?
Guest:I think, you know, at the time, we always like to say to each other, like, oh, this could be something.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This could be really cool.
Guest:And I remember thinking to myself, like, oh, come on, you know, you're going to win a thousand Oscars.
Guest:But nobody could, you know, sit around saying that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like that was kind of the feeling like, yeah, this could be big.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you at that point, you were that you were savvy enough to know all this stuff was going on.
Guest:I was savvy in some areas, but completely innocent in others.
Guest:I was a late bloomer.
Guest:We shot that when I was 16.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like Mendez was like, was he interesting to work with?
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:It was like a college professor.
Marc:So you learned things?
Guest:For sure.
Guest:You could pick as much as you could try to.
Guest:Try to pick his brain a little bit.
Guest:You know, try to scratch the surface.
Guest:He's kind of a quiet guy.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And was he on set directing or was he far away in a little video village?
Guest:No.
Guest:I mean, he was both.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was both.
Guest:The beauty about the way Conrad Hall lit was that he would light the whole...
Guest:world yeah and so so it wasn't like you could be right up close he kind of like created a whole space in which the actors mainly had a lot of freedom or a lot of movement and so because uh physically because of that physically yeah and be like right up you know yeah like in the water with you sure to say but yeah
Guest:But he was, you know, second it was cut, he'd come running in.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then other times he was more, you know, wouldn't necessarily watch the monitor.
Guest:So it was all depending on his mood or the situation, I suppose.
Marc:I don't know why I asked you that.
Marc:I think it's because I can't remember who was talking, but maybe it was Carol Kane?
Marc:Just because I talked to her recently that there was a time where, you know, the director was, there was no Video Village.
Marc:They were there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They were sitting there by the camera.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, doing the business.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And there was an intimacy to that, I guess.
Guest:I think it's nice to have a bit of both.
Marc:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:A little bit of a balance.
Guest:But if I were to, let's say, take on that role, I imagine that I would have the little monitor in my hand but also be right there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Have you done any directing?
Guest:Minimal, but that's the goal.
Guest:I've done some shorts, online shorts, like little clips.
Guest:And how are they received?
Guest:Well, I mean, for no budget, like guerrilla.
Guest:You know, I mean, I had one editor.
Guest:And no music, no nothing.
Guest:I mean, it was like bare bones stuff, just like me dipping my toe in, basically.
Guest:And you've done a commercial, you said?
Guest:Yeah, well, I had...
Guest:I had done a campaign for these breath flash strips in the early 2000s.
Guest:And part of the deal was that I would do these three commercials and one of them I could direct.
Guest:So one of them I did.
Guest:And I came up with the concept and everything.
Guest:And that's the goal?
Guest:And that was kind of like, yeah, it's a goal.
Guest:It is a goal.
Guest:I've done some producing.
Guest:But I think that I've always wanted to, ever since I was nine, I wanted to...
Guest:Because my idea is like, well, who's in charge?
Guest:Because I want to be that guy.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Guest:So it's always been the goal.
Guest:But at the same time, it's not as burning as it once was.
Guest:But I think that that actually might propel me to achieve it even more.
Guest:Because I'm not so desperate for it.
Guest:It's more of a, well, if this can happen, that would be great.
Marc:Yeah, if he can work towards it.
Marc:So, like, after American Beauty, do things get pretty crazy for you?
Guest:Oh, yeah, for sure.
Guest:Crazy in the sense that, you know, it was a whole new level.
Guest:Like, I felt before that I had been...
Guest:maybe industry known you know as a as a as a kid actor bordering on child star or whatever however you want to put it right and then after that it was more like oh no you're you just stepped into a different club right and you know you're touring europe with the film and promoting it and and all of that so we did toronto uh-huh uh we didn't really need festivals but we went around
Guest:Sure.
Guest:To promote it.
Guest:Yeah, to promote it.
Guest:We had the premieres in London, Spain, Italy, France, all that, Germany.
Guest:Kevin and the three of us did a lot of it.
Guest:Was Kevin all right?
Guest:Kevin went on a tour in the States, too, like the colleges and universities.
Guest:Was he all right to work with?
Guest:As an actor, he's wonderful to work with.
Guest:And I only really interacted with him on set and at premieres and events and stuff.
Guest:So we didn't, like, in the rehearsal period, we had a little time to bond and get to know each other.
Guest:But there were always, you know, Kevin's a really intelligent person and he even was a private person.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Look, I was a 16-year-old girl.
Guest:There's just not much of an interest there for me.
Marc:Yeah, and I'm not looking for anything.
Guest:But also I think the nature of our on-screen relationship, too, was more – it kind of lent itself to a natural –
Marc:thing on set where we were like we were close but there was like a slight contentiousness there just but I think it was a bleeding over from the nature of the character yeah it's like that thing we were talking about earlier in the kitchen where you know if you have you know younger parents that the bond is sort of weird right like I I guess it's his trip was sort of a midwife trip but it was still him trying to to get something back right of his youth yeah and not understanding you know proper grown-up boundaries or or you know or
Guest:I think he just like he only like I think, you know, a lot of parents get kind of they their kids reach a certain age and the parent just can't help but not understand them in a new way.
Guest:It's more like, well, what happened to that wonderful eight year old that I, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it can it can stay weird.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then he's going in this like, well, what happened to my life?
Guest:And he's taking it a little bit on a selfish, from Jane's point of view, it's a very selfish outlook that he's taking.
Marc:And did you find that with your folks?
Marc:Were they young when they had you?
Guest:No.
Marc:They weren't?
Guest:No.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So you didn't grow up with younger parents?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:They were parents.
Guest:But they were friends, too, because they didn't talk to me like...
Guest:Aga-goo-goo.
Guest:Yeah, read this book.
Guest:Tell us what you think about it.
Guest:Be engaged.
Guest:Educate yourself.
Marc:Is your sense of them that whatever went on in the 70s was some sort of like they were contracting after that?
Marc:That after that, whatever they'd gone through in the 60s and 70s, they're like, all right, we did that.
Marc:Let's bring the kid up right.
Guest:I believe that.
Guest:Yeah, I that's I mean, that's mainly I mean, definitely.
Guest:I think that was the there was they had been through so much and so much that there was a level of horror that I why the idea that I might have to go through some that, you know, that was what they had done was not for me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I think that that happens to a lot of that generation, you know, given that, you know, not all of them do what your parents did, but that that sort of like following that that 60s trip of like, you know, just kind of do it, man.
Marc:You know, do whatever, you know, in all that liberation.
Guest:That was not the I mean, maybe if they had been younger when I when I came along or I had come.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, at an earlier period?
Guest:You're lucky.
Guest:Like, say I was born in, like, 78 or 77 or something like that?
Guest:It might have been different.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In some way, I got the more standard, normal.
Marc:Right.
Marc:They had come to their senses after the insanity.
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:Well, a little bit.
Guest:They always have, like, a radical outlook on things.
Guest:They do?
Guest:But, I mean, in a thoughtful way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They can be reined in.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Like, well, it's radical.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, you know, I mean, I think, you know, like I said, they were incredible health nuts for a long, long time.
Guest:So you grew up with a lot of supplements?
Guest:Well, you know, bee pollen, spirulina and stuff like that.
Guest:And then, you know, but then, you know, 10 years later, they're like, oh, we're going for Chinese.
Guest:You know, so they kind of, they go all over.
Guest:Phases.
Marc:So during the American Beauty period, are they, is your dad managing you?
Guest:yes he was still yeah but I had you know I had a big agents yeah I had teams I've been with a lot of different agents a long period of time and yeah but he yeah he was but he was never on set yeah he was you know he he was working out at home yeah he's yeah and real estate he was a real estate guy dabbled a lot of hustles I don't know yeah I was busy you know I didn't so what happens right after American Beauty
Guest:Well, you know, it was kind of like sit back and just go on the roller coaster for a little while there.
Guest:And, you know, honestly, there wasn't as many scripts as I had expected to be flooding through.
Guest:And I still, to this day, don't know if that was because there simply weren't that many roles to follow a performance like that up with at that time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's why when I – shortly after the film came – not that shortly after the film came out.
Guest:Maybe about like four or five months after the film came out, I got the script for Ghost World.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And it was sent to me with the graphic novel as well.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So I read the script first.
Guest:Then I read the graphic novel.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I was completely blown away.
Guest:And I'm like, this is my part.
Guest:This is my part.
Guest:This is my part.
Guest:And nobody wanted me to play that part.
Guest:The director didn't want me to play it.
Guest:The writer didn't.
Guest:They wanted somebody else.
Guest:Really?
Guest:They thought of me as a Rebecca.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And for me, that particular character did nothing for me.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And Enid was somebody that I felt that I could kind of maybe in some way hide behind and...
Guest:at least be able to portray her personality without having her personality in my own life.
Guest:But unfortunately, through playing her, she stuck with me for a while.
Guest:So her outlook became my outlook for potentially a little too long.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, disenchanted, just kind of lost and confused in a way.
Guest:And I think part of that is...
Guest:So, you know, internal stuff, but at the same time, I think it's a reaction to just like, you know, the...
Guest:being a young woman in that era, if you're pursuing a high-profile career, there only seems to be a couple of formulas to adapt to in order to reach, let's say, that level.
Guest:And what it took, those formulas were not so attractive to me.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You got cynical.
Guest:I got, yeah, a little.
Guest:A little.
Guest:And I just also felt like maybe it was unfair that
Guest:so many of my opinions had to be corrected or adjusted or something.
Guest:I can be stubborn from time to time.
Marc:Right, so the implication was you didn't know better and that other people knew better.
Guest:I think it's more of like a calm down.
Guest:It's all okay.
Guest:Just do this and everything will be fine.
Guest:Oh, so that was the way they framed it.
Guest:Like in your best interest.
Guest:But it's a proverbial.
Guest:It's like it was everybody.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Everyone's just like, oh, don't, you know, that's just more of a shoo-shoo poo-poo.
Marc:Right, but there was still those formulas that they were trying to put together.
Guest:Those were the ones.
Guest:And any trying to forge a new formula was something that needed to be corrected, not...
Marc:Not embraced.
Marc:Right.
Marc:What were the old formulas in your mind?
Guest:Just, you know, the hot, tall, skinny, Jessica Alba type of thing.
Guest:Like, no, there's anything wrong with that.
Guest:I'm not critiquing it.
Guest:I'm like, okay, but maybe, you know, I'm not going to grow a foot taller and stay the same weight.
Guest:So what can I do?
Marc:But it looks like, though, you did a couple of movies in between American Beauty and Ghost World that were, it seemed like kind of trying different things out.
Guest:Yeah, actually, right after American Beauty, Ghost World was my next film that I shot.
Guest:And then after that, but it took a while to come out.
Guest:Oh, is that how it worked?
Guest:It took a while to come out.
Guest:And then after Ghost World, I was more experimental and I was trying things.
Guest:And I was more like, oh, I don't care about the budget or who's like all the things where they say like, oh, you only want to work with certain people and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:So I didn't care about any of that.
Guest:I was like, I was just going by the material.
Marc:Yeah, so the sensibility of Ghost World.
Marc:I mean, because that is a pretty, you know, that, I mean, it was an experimental movie, really, I think.
Marc:You know, I've read Clouds for a long time, you know, and I've interviewed that guy.
Marc:And Zweigoff is like, he's kind of a pain in the ass, but he's all right, you know.
Guest:He cracks me up.
Guest:Yeah, he's funny.
Guest:I cannot get through a conversation with him without having a stomach ache for the next day because I'm laughing too hard.
Marc:He's an odd, interesting guy.
Guest:He's the most self-deprecating person I've ever met.
Marc:But there was something about the nature of Klaus and about those characters that really, they changed your point of view, huh?
Guest:For sure.
Guest:I think they...
Guest:highlighted a point of view that I maybe already had.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But they put a spotlight on it.
Guest:And also... And it allowed me to fully expand on it.
Marc:Right, right.
Marc:And in retrospect, do you think that was destructive?
Guest:No.
Guest:I had a blast.
Guest:I loved making that film.
Guest:I mean, maybe...
Marc:By just being cynical.
Guest:Following, you know, afterwards, maybe being turned into like, you know, having the personality not so dissimilar to Terry's himself was maybe not ideal for an 18-year-old girl.
Guest:And I might have lost some friendships and, you know, stopped some guys from approaching me.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe that's a good thing.
Guest:It's a good thing, yeah, probably.
Marc:And did you... Were you and Scar with friends ever?
Guest:Very tight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Very tight.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, well, I mean, we... Worked together.
Guest:We were working like this, you know what I mean?
Guest:I was just graduating high school, and she was still in school, so our time together wasn't as much as it maybe could have been.
Guest:She was still in high school?
Guest:We were exactly the same age.
Guest:I think she was 15.
Guest:No kidding.
Guest:15.
Guest:Wow, I didn't even realize that.
Guest:But she...
Guest:Was that her first movie?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:She had been in something like Manny and Lowe and some others.
Guest:Oh, oh, oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was her first, I think, big, chunky, bordering on adult role.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, it's so weird.
Marc:There's people that... I know it from my own life.
Marc:Because when I look at the cast of some of the movies you've been in, some people had hard lives.
Marc:Some people aren't with us anymore.
Marc:It's heavy, man.
Marc:I didn't realize that Renfro was in Ghost Word.
Marc:I'm trying to remember who he was in that.
Guest:He was Josh.
Guest:He was kind of a side crush of Enid's.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:But his character wasn't featured that much, but it was essential to the story.
Marc:Yeah, and Wes, too, had trouble, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, when I worked with Wes, that hadn't—I mean, maybe there might have been beginnings of it, but that hadn't— Right, yeah.
Guest:It hadn't, you know, became what it did.
Guest:But when I was working with Renfro, it was already at a shocking place.
Guest:I found—
Guest:where he was at just in his life to be kind of shocking yeah it was the first time you'd seen that it was it was that bad it was the first time I had seen it that bad right I mean I had heard things about other people or right you know I was all when I was a kid I could always tell the difference between the kids who wanted to be there and the kids who didn't yeah and that was always like oof god that sucks you know
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But for him, it was more like it was kind of a cautionary.
Guest:I was like, wow.
Guest:And also, I was shocked that anybody had let had let it gotten to that point.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, his his handler.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That this I don't know, the state or.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Insurance or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had had him with was his was his provider.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's so weird how those people find people that that.
Marc:It's a whole shadow business, you know, to people that have those kind of problems.
Marc:There's just these people that service them.
Guest:Well, he was incredibly vulnerable, too, just because he had no support system.
Guest:So young, too.
Guest:Support network.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he had come from a very disastrous starting place.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:I didn't know that.
Marc:Did you guys remain friends after that until, you know?
Guest:You know, honestly, not that much.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I, we, we, we didn't, his situation scared me.
Guest:I really thought he was a really sweet kid, but there was something about his energy that I didn't want to engage too much.
Marc:So you were able to avoid that?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:I mean, drugs and whatnot.
Guest:Oh, well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I, I, I didn't,
Guest:I never went off the deep end with anything.
Guest:There was always certain journeys in life that I knew I just really didn't want to take.
Guest:That's good that you didn't.
Guest:I haven't been a perfect angel, but none of the hard stuff ever.
Marc:You didn't lose control.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Which is nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Good for you.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:So now after Ghost World, I mean, it seems like you work a lot.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:And are you happy?
Guest:You know, I am because I had taken, you know, like you said, people can ask, you know.
Marc:What happened to her?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's fair.
Guest:But, you know, a lot of the stuff that I did didn't reach the point.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Guest:That happens all the time.
Guest:The audience size of other things, and I did them for different reasons.
Guest:And then at a certain point in my life, it became, for me, I felt like the best thing that I could do just to keep growing and evolving as a person and try to hold on to some sanity was to get my education.
Guest:After graduating high school, my career was in such a place that
Guest:College wasn't even a thought.
Guest:Right, you were working.
Guest:I was like, yeah.
Guest:But I really wanted to educate myself, so I got my pre-law degree.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a four-year program, and I did it about three.
Guest:Where at?
Guest:Kaplan, which is like the Phoenix.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It's the better Phoenix.
Marc:Okay, yeah.
Marc:So online?
Guest:It's online, but it's online.
Guest:Online gets a little bit of a bad rap, but I've spoken to teachers who have said it's actually harder than some of them.
Guest:And it kept me away from the culture.
Guest:Also, I was older.
Guest:From the Hollywood culture?
Guest:No, no, no, the college party culture.
Guest:I feel like when you're that age, you go to college for something other than...
Marc:No, I think people who really want it, they really want it.
Marc:Like, you want to learn.
Guest:Yeah, and I went for that.
Guest:And I really enjoyed it.
Guest:It was rigorous, but I very much enjoyed it.
Guest:But it just brought me back to realizing that I...
Guest:Whereas maybe I was open minded to a major life shift and taking on a new career direction that that that I actually didn't ultimately want that.
Guest:And I still wanted to be part of the storytelling process because I believe that.
Guest:I don't know, call me whatever, but I believe that film and TV is consumed by largely formative minds.
Guest:And so I think that there's a power in that.
Guest:And with that comes a responsibility to shape things.
Guest:those lines in as open a way as possible.
Guest:That brought me back to, I thought, oh, okay, well, maybe I'll write.
Guest:So I wrote a play in a month.
Guest:I wrote a screenplay in a year and a half.
Guest:After you decided the pre-law?
Guest:After I finished my pre-law, there was like, oh, okay, well, either go in for your JD and start working on studying for the bar and all that, or skip it.
Marc:What's the play about?
Guest:A first date.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:What's it called?
Guest:Yeah, but it's a first date on pause.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It's a first date, but it's got flashbacks of previous relationships, and those previous relationships all explain why this first date is going so horrifically awkwardly.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Marc:Now, did you put it up?
Guest:I came close, but I got distracted with other things.
Marc:Did you do a reading of it or anything?
Guest:No, I mean, I had a producing partner, but then something happened with a theater that we were going to do it at.
Guest:And then I just, you know, after that, then it was becoming like, well, you know, I'd also really still like to act as well.
Guest:So it was more of a hunt for representation and stuff like that.
Marc:Oh, so you needed to get re-represented?
Guest:Well, maybe.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:I did.
Marc:So the going to school and the writing the play got you out of the game a bit.
Marc:So you had to go back, get some new people.
Guest:I was still being approached, but I just was, you know, no, this is what I'm doing now.
Guest:And then it actually kind of needed to come from me to decide to try the acting stuff again.
Marc:Do you find that, like, are you writing for young adults?
Guest:Well, I mean, I feel like when I was an audience member at 15, 16, I was always looking for what the 25-year-olds were watching.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And so I want to talk to those kids.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't even understand kids.
Marc:I don't have them.
Guest:I don't understand them either.
Marc:I don't know where they're at.
Guest:No, but I feel like it's our duty to talk to them anyway.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Sometimes they find me, you know, some college kids, but still, like, I don't.
Guest:Oh, I'm sure you're bigger than you think you are with college kids.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You know, I go perform at places in college towns.
Marc:The ones that know me and like me are definitely kind of special, sensitive, tormented, a little brighter than the rest.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:You know, it's not the across-the-board college appeal.
Guest:Maybe those are our people.
Marc:No, they're fine with me.
Marc:It's okay with me.
Marc:So once you get back into the game, are you frustrated now or do you feel okay?
Guest:Not so much because I don't have a lot of the... I feel like a disenchantment and a disappointment or a frustration comes...
Guest:parallel to the level of expectation that one has.
Guest:And so my expectation level might have been one thing a while ago.
Guest:Now it's a little different.
Guest:And so I don't feel the anxiety that's coming with it.
Guest:Or am I achieving my goals quick enough?
Guest:And I don't do the comparison thing.
Guest:You know, basing my happiness on like, oh, so-and-so's doing so much better and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:I never was like that.
Guest:Never?
Guest:Not really.
Guest:I mean, briefly when I was in my early, early 20s.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And every actor has their one.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:They're like, you're a good person, you know.
Guest:I might have had a couple of those.
Yeah.
Guest:I just don't have time for that anymore.
Marc:I've still got mine and I'm doing fine.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It's fucked up.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, it's like how do you get to a point of self-acceptance?
Guest:It's a little I don't think you have to have self-acceptance in order to like just let the other part of it go.
Guest:And it's it's.
Guest:Some people will say, well, in order to succeed, you have to be competitive.
Guest:You hear this in sports all the time.
Guest:It's all about the competition, but I don't see it that way.
Marc:But with sports, it's sort of like I run faster than you.
Guest:You have to win a game.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:There's a million different problems in being competitive in this business.
Marc:What does that even mean?
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Yeah, I hear you.
Guest:I hear you.
Marc:It's fucking nuts.
Marc:But, like, I still get jealous, even though, like, I know in my mind that I don't want what they have.
Marc:I probably couldn't do what they do.
Marc:All that shit, you know?
Marc:But in order to sort of assess that and not use those as weapons against myself, like, well, why can't I do it?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's true.
Marc:It's complicated.
Guest:It's complicated.
Guest:And it's a constant struggle because I, even to this day, I'll have days where, like, well, what do you, what the fuck?
Guest:does anyone want from like what do you want me to do yeah well i gotta stand on stage naked for an hour and a half what do you want when does that conversation happen no i just it's like it's an example of like what does it take to be you know like because you hear so much and everybody hears this oh we love her we love her we love her but then it's like oh it's not this and it's not that and that's not even that's every single actor out there has you know like oh
Guest:Oh, excellent.
Guest:Amazing.
Guest:Not right for this.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:So, yeah, that I can't.
Marc:That's why I never did the acting thing.
Marc:I never pursued it because I couldn't handle that shit.
Guest:Right.
Marc:The amount of rejection you guys take.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I can't.
Marc:I can't.
Guest:Well, and then, of course, in our mind is it's like, you're right.
Guest:But remember when I describe myself as an actor?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like it means I can give me a note.
Guest:Give me an adjustment.
Guest:I'll make it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You don't get the amount of adjustment notes.
Marc:What would be what would make you happy?
Marc:Like in terms of like, I'm not happy-happy, but like what kind of part, what are you looking for as an actor at this point?
Guest:I've always kind of, even when I was, you know, doing different things, I always wanted to, I always saw myself as like...
Guest:That I couldn't wait to get to the older Bette Davis era, the Frances McDormand.
Guest:I always was like, I'm looking forward to that or something.
Guest:So I didn't exactly know what I want.
Guest:I just knew that a lot of what I was reading wasn't really clicking with me.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you did this, you were in that movie with the last black man in San Francisco?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And how was that?
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:I loved that script.
Guest:It's a beautiful poem to the city, which is my favorite city in California.
Marc:It is like a poem.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Poetry.
Marc:The whole thing is, that's the only way I could take it.
Marc:And when I started to watch the groove of it, and I'm like, all right, this is what this is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And the score is phenomenal.
Guest:And Joe's Joe's eye and some of his shots and concepts were just amazing.
Guest:And so I was just happy to be a part of that.
Guest:You know, I'm also on like right now I'm on season 10 of The Walking Dead.
Guest:And I just finished shooting a film in Oklahoma called 13 Minutes.
Guest:So I mean, there's like Oklahoma City.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How was that?
Guest:It was they're starting to do a lot more there.
Marc:Did you hang out with Wayne Coyne from the Flaming Lips?
Guest:Did you go over there?
Guest:Oh, the drummer from the Flaming Lips was the boyfriend of our hair, our key hair.
Guest:And he actually helped out with wardrobe, oddly enough, on set.
Marc:Wayne, the lead singer of the Flaming Lips, he's got a whole little world over there.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:They have a little alley street named after them.
Guest:I walk by it all the time.
Marc:There's a place with a giant... It's a lot of weirdness.
Marc:A lot of the king's mouth.
Marc:He's got some giant mouth you can go in, and there's a womb room.
Marc:Trippy.
Marc:Yeah, definitely trippy.
Marc:Oh, you didn't hang out there, though?
Guest:I didn't make it to that.
Guest:I was in and out on that one.
Guest:It was very much an ensemble piece.
Guest:What's that about 13 Minutes?
Guest:It's about before, during, and after a tornado hits in a very small town.
Guest:And it's like these intersecting lives type of thing.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:It's, you know, it's a nice, clean... Fun?
Guest:Fun, yeah.
Guest:And what is it like being in the never-ending Walking Dead?
Guest:I only started season 10.
Guest:It's amazing.
Guest:It was such an adjustment for me to A, be back on a TV show.
Marc:I haven't even watched it.
Marc:Were you zombie fighting?
Guest:I did a little bit.
Guest:I did a little bit of that.
Guest:One thing that's nice about it coming on it so late is that it runs like a machine.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:So they know exactly what they're doing.
Guest:But it's a very scattered, difficult, laborious, intense, filthy, disgusting, humidity-addled machine.
Marc:Where does it shoot?
Guest:South of Atlanta, Georgia.
Guest:In the summer, no less.
Guest:Hot.
Guest:Just a teensy.
Marc:And you were staying in Atlanta?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, no, too far to commute because the hours of the days are so long.
Guest:They're typically 14 hour days.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you wind up staying in this little town called either Sonoya.
Guest:I don't know if you say it's Sonoya or Sonoya.
Guest:It's spelled Sonoya, but I hear people say Sonoya.
Guest:So anyway, you either stay there, which is like 10 minutes from the set, which is like 300 acres or Peachtree City, which is where I was.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like just under a half hour drive from set.
Marc:Yeah, I was there for a couple weeks doing a thing.
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:It's an okay city, but I guess you weren't really in it.
Guest:You know, I like Atlanta in the winter, like the fall, winter, spring.
Marc:When it's not disgusting and sticky and hot.
Marc:And so what else do you have coming up?
Guest:Like I said, 13 minutes.
Guest:And I did just option a script that I have in front of some people's eyes that I would be directing not in.
Guest:And, you know, it's pilot season, so anything can happen.
Marc:So you go out to pilots?
Marc:You go out for the pilot season?
Guest:Not... Certain ones.
Marc:Isn't pilot season, like, ongoing now?
Guest:Right, but it's, like, the original pilot season now.
Guest:But the streaming pilot season is a yearly...
Guest:Oh, so this is... But, like, it's just, like, the big fives.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So this is really... Going cable.
Marc:So you've been going out on auditions?
Guest:Here and there.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I mean, it's in that between of, like, you're either meeting or auditioning, depending on the project and the people.
Marc:Would you do, like, a big three-camera thing?
Guest:I would.
Guest:I would.
Guest:I'm not against it.
Marc:Like, you know, the three-camera thing never goes away.
Guest:They even, like, I think they did, like, The Ranch.
Guest:And I'm like, wow, the multicam on streaming.
Guest:Why?
Marc:It went for a while.
Marc:I talked to Ashton about that.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's sort of interesting the way they did that.
Marc:You know, like I never like he because it ran, I think, longer than anyone expected.
Marc:And people liked it.
Guest:Yeah, obviously.
Guest:Yeah, it was really it was very popular.
Marc:I think they just did the last season.
Guest:But it's weird that it was that that was a new thing because it was if I did not that I watched too much of the show.
Guest:But Sam Elliott is also my man, my manager.
Guest:So, you know, he's a fellow client was a fellow client.
Marc:It's with your management.
Guest:It was, and so I heard about the show and all of that, and from what I understand, it was multicam, and it was a comedy, but it also had genuinely dramatic elements as well.
Marc:Well, that's the thing that was interesting, that they balanced this thing, because it did have the joke-to-joke business, but then they dealt with heavier things, and Ashton said they got into a system of shooting that because they knew that you could...
Marc:You couldn't do that in the flow of the show with an audience.
Guest:I think I heard that episode.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:She was saying that they would shoot some in front of the audience.
Guest:Yeah, and the serious stuff.
Guest:And then go back and forth.
Guest:It was smart.
Guest:The different levels.
Guest:I mean, it explained to me how something like that would work out.
Marc:Yeah, because I don't think I'd seen it work like that before.
Marc:You know, that you get that weird kind of laugh tracky thing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But instead of relying on the audience just to make the shift.
Guest:Right.
Marc:They were able to isolate the things they knew they couldn't or they prep the audience in a different way.
Guest:It sounds like they might have created a solution to the problem I always had as an audience member with the, you know, filmed in front of a live audience thing, which was.
Yeah.
Guest:for the dramatic moments, they never seem to go in for a close-up at all.
Guest:I'm like, well, how are you supposed to know how dramatic this really is if the camera's still way back here and the audience is still going to laugh in five seconds?
Guest:Like, that's not going to work for me.
Guest:Like, I'm not buying the drama.
Guest:This is just coming off as really bad.
Guest:So it sounds like maybe he found the happy medium with all of that.
Marc:I mean, I watched a couple episodes and it seemed to work, you know?
Guest:Sure.
Marc:So what what's this in terms of directing?
Marc:What has to happen for that for your project option?
Marc:What do you got?
Marc:Stars have to realign and you have to get you want to act in it too or no?
Guest:Not this one.
Guest:Not the one that I just opted.
Marc:So you're trying to connect people to it?
Marc:You're trying to get people into it?
Guest:Yeah, you shop it around.
Guest:You take on the duties of a producer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you got to get the money, honey.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And what do you do for fun, Laura?
Guest:I...
Guest:I watch a lot.
Guest:I read a lot.
Guest:I mean, I read a lot online.
Guest:I'd like to stop and go back to my book reading stuff.
Guest:But I do, I like any historical biographies.
Guest:I bike ride.
Guest:We ski.
Guest:You do?
Guest:I just try to keep this physical, you know, walk.
Guest:I like to ski.
Guest:I haven't skied in a long time.
Guest:And then, you know, I maybe play a couple of stupid games on my phone.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Guest:But, I mean, that's more like when you're on set and you're kind of like in between and stuff like that.
Marc:Yeah, I wish I did more game playing on the phone.
Marc:I just seem to get lost in it, you know, with the news and everything else.
Guest:I do, too.
Guest:But I feel like if you're on the news, they try to steer you or at least my phone tries to steer me to like celebrity gossip or something.
Guest:Oh, yeah, sure.
Guest:Or like, you know, oh, what's wrong with their toe or, you know, I mean.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just I don't I don't like any of that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, I get sucked right into the darkness.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I like hopping around.
Guest:Like trying to find different news sources like AFP or, you know, or then I'll like I'll go.
Guest:I find myself going into groups and finding like online activism and all that, you know, sign every petition in the world.
Marc:Good.
Guest:Maybe that'll help.
Guest:Absolutely nothing.
Marc:Who knows?
Marc:Well, where do you ski at?
Guest:Mammoth?
Guest:Just because it's local.
Guest:Mammoth?
Guest:Mainly Big Bear.
Guest:Big Bear, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, Mammoth is great, too, but it's just a little further away.
Marc:You've been skiing your whole life?
Guest:No.
Guest:I only started when I was, I started learning when I was 34.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You like it, though?
Guest:So it's been like three, four years.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I love it.
Guest:I'm still developing my legs, but I really love it.
Marc:But you went with skis, not snowboard.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:Only because... Does your husband ski?
Guest:I feel like... Yes, he does.
Guest:He's actually the one who taught me.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And I feel like, you know, these boarders, they get... Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Scotty little shit head.
Marc:It's hard to pick that shit up, too.
Guest:It's a little harder.
Guest:When you get older.
Marc:It's a whole different groove.
Guest:Right.
Marc:How long have you been married?
Guest:A year and two months and a couple days.
Marc:And how long did you know him before?
Guest:Oh, we've been together just under five years.
Marc:How's it going?
Guest:Great.
Guest:Love it.
Guest:And a total shock to me.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was a never marry, never kid kind of person, you know?
Guest:And then I just changed with this one.
Marc:Good.
Marc:As long as you're happy.
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:Good talking to you, Thora.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:She was a little concerned about how that might have come off.
Marc:I thought it was fine.
Marc:She's currently on The Walking Dead, which airs Sunday nights on AMC.
Marc:And now you can listen to me wrestle with this fucking Les Paul Jr.
Marc:and my fucking 53 Fender Deluxe amp.
Marc:Me wrestling with these old fucking men at my own age.
guitar solo
Guest:Boomer lives.