Episode 1084 - Shauna Duggins
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the Fuck Tuplets, if there are any out there.
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I am Marc Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:Shawna Duggins is on the show today.
Marc:Shawna is the stunt coordinator for GLOW.
Marc:That's how I know her.
Marc:She's the first woman to win the Outstanding Stunt Coordination Emmy for her work on that show that I'm on, GLOW.
Marc:She's nominated for a third consecutive Screen Actors Guild Award for this season of GLOW.
Marc:She's a stunt rock star and she's on the show today.
Marc:Hope you're well.
Marc:It's been a fun and relaxing few days.
Marc:Very disturbing few days in the world.
Marc:But that's not unusual.
Marc:More disturbing as a Jew when anti-Semitic hate crimes by fucking lunatics, domestic terrorists.
Marc:You know, it becomes a frightening place to live.
Marc:But, you know, my thoughts go out to the people that are terrified in their communities.
Marc:Shitty times and the new year is coming.
Marc:Maybe everything will change.
Marc:Can I shift gears right now?
Marc:That's a big question.
Marc:There's a rough opening.
Marc:It's difficult.
Marc:It's a difficult transition to make.
Marc:But I've had a lovely Hanukkah.
Marc:I've been lighting the candles, which I don't do.
Marc:I've been engaging in the tradition.
Marc:I've been encouraged by yet another non-Jew girl.
Marc:to engage in the tradition of the lighting of the candles and saying of the prayers.
Marc:And I went to a Hanukkah party at Moshe Kasher's house and Natasha Leggero.
Marc:They're married.
Marc:And it was a lovely time.
Marc:I'm starting to socialize a little more.
Marc:I'm I don't know.
Marc:I think that maybe I think maybe people just are they make the wrong assumption is about me.
Marc:They think I don't want to socialize.
Marc:They think I'm antisocial or they don't want me at their house.
Marc:But I've been very pleasant.
Marc:Very pleasant.
Marc:It was a nice time.
Marc:There were a lot of Jews there.
Marc:The Jeff Ross.
Marc:Anywhere there are Jews, Jeff Ross will show up.
Marc:If there are Jewish comedians anywhere, Jeff Ross will be there.
Marc:He'll be there with you.
Marc:He's like some sort of strange ghost of show business.
Marc:Hey, there's Jews gathered here and they're funny people.
Marc:Oh, there's Jeff Ross.
Marc:When did he get here?
Marc:He's always been here, Mr. Torrance.
Marc:You've always been here.
Marc:But it's not the Overlook Hotel.
Marc:It's like some old Catskills joint.
Marc:But that's my thoughts on Ross.
Marc:Some of you know that about my Jeff Ross theory.
Marc:The end of The Shining where Jack Nicholson sees him when he zooms in and there's the picture from the 20s.
Marc:He's always been here.
Marc:Jeff Ross has always been in show business.
Marc:Going back to the early 1900s, he is a Jewish frequency that is eternal.
Marc:Who else was there?
Marc:David Wayne was there.
Marc:Duncan Trussell, not Jewish, but he was there.
Marc:Joe Mandy.
Marc:It was very nice.
Marc:Latkes, a lot of latkes, a lot of latkes.
Marc:And other fried goods.
Marc:And I made a cake, an almond cake.
Marc:Did a lot of baking, but I'm through it.
Marc:I'm done with that.
Marc:Now we're doing healthy foods.
Marc:But I hope you had a lovely Hanukkah.
Marc:Last night was the last night.
Marc:I ran out of candles, got new candles, didn't know the second prayer, still don't know it, but kind of bungled through it.
Marc:My brother was in town with his stepdaughter and he was very surprised that I was doing the candles.
Marc:I being the one that was, you know, as far as much off the grid traditionally as any Jew.
Marc:But we're doing it.
Marc:I'm doing it.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:It doesn't bring me closer to God because I don't have a God.
Marc:But it does bring me somewhat closer to the candles.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It was nice.
Marc:Reminded me of when I was young.
Marc:There's a through line.
Marc:I'm back on it.
Marc:I'm on the sort of mild traditional Jew through line.
Marc:It's important now.
Marc:So, yeah, my brother came out with his stepdaughter and we did.
Marc:I did something I haven't done in a long time.
Marc:I didn't think I would do.
Marc:My brother wanted to take his stepdaughter to see the dead and company, the dead and co the dead and company, which is basically the drummers, Mickey and Bill of the dead with Bob Weir, John Mayer, a new bass guy and a new keyboard guy.
Marc:So there's three of the original dead there.
Marc:And they're doing dead tunes and I've heard they were good, but like I'm sort of a weird purist when it comes to that.
Marc:I saw the dead a few times in my life.
Marc:I had a connection with them.
Marc:It runs deep.
Marc:I lived with dead heads for a couple of years when I was in college.
Marc:I have all the music in my brain.
Marc:I've done the hippie dance.
Marc:I've done the hippie, hippie shake.
Marc:I've done the hippie jig.
Marc:I know how to do the hippie jig.
Marc:I've tripped on mushrooms and acid to dead music, mushrooms at a dead show.
Marc:It is implanted.
Marc:It is hardwired into me.
Marc:The dead is.
Marc:And I was sort of a purist.
Marc:I drew a line.
Marc:But my brother wanted to take her out, and they wanted to stay here.
Marc:And then I thought to myself, well, hey, man, I'm a mid-level celebrity who works for Live Nation occasionally.
Marc:I wonder if...
Marc:I can make a few phone calls and get us some sort of a nice treatment and maybe get to go see it with, you know, get some nice tickets somehow work and angle.
Marc:Well, I did.
Marc:And we went and we, we went, we, it was at the forum.
Marc:We had the forum club experience, all the food and cakes.
Marc:And there were, there were gummy bears, non-druggy gummy bears that,
Marc:There was people I knew there.
Marc:I met.
Marc:You know who I met?
Marc:Here's a weird thing.
Marc:Guy comes up to me, says his name is Mike.
Marc:And then he says, Pompton Lakes, New Jersey.
Marc:Pompton Lakes, New Jersey.
Marc:That's where my mom's from.
Marc:And then he says, my grandmother and grandfather owned the dry cleaning business and lived across the street from your grandparents.
Marc:I'm like, the Roths?
Marc:Yup.
Marc:Yup.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:He's like, yeah, my father was what's his name?
Marc:And I go, one of the twins.
Marc:He's like, yep, I knew that.
Marc:You know, that's the kind of thing that happens at a Grateful Dead show.
Marc:You meet the grandson of your grandmother's across the street neighbor.
Marc:So.
Marc:Into the concert, I don't do drugs anymore, but there was enough in the air.
Marc:There was plenty in the air.
Marc:And I had a great time.
Marc:I did the hippie jig.
Marc:I rocked back and forth, sang along with the songs.
Marc:I put my hands up in the air a couple of times.
Marc:I swayed.
Marc:Lynn was there.
Marc:She sat a lot of the time.
Marc:And looked cold and occasionally would get up.
Marc:But she didn't know a lot of the songs, so she was a good sport.
Marc:I'm not even sure Craig's stepdaughter loved it, but she was in.
Marc:But me and my brother were just sort of like doing the fucking hippie jig, hanging out, rocking back and forth, listening to the song.
Marc:And I realized like, well, you know, I guess that's the way it goes.
Marc:I guess me and my brother got something in common.
Marc:We stayed almost till the very end, which is rare.
Marc:Just we skipped out right after the last song.
Marc:Did not stay for the encore, but saw all of it.
Marc:And I got to be honest with you, man.
Marc:Had a pretty good time.
Marc:I did feel, I don't know if it's nostalgia or what.
Marc:It was a packed house, and it was a very diverse age-wise audience.
Marc:I wouldn't say it was diverse any other way, but it was a lot of different ages.
Marc:But there's a loneliness to Bob Weir that he's the last of them.
Marc:You know, he's the captain of the ship.
Marc:He's the bearded man on the bow singing those old songs that him and Jerry sang for 50 years.
Marc:The boys, Phil's not there.
Marc:Bill and Mickey are holding up the back end and they're in their 70s.
Marc:But it just there felt like there was a heroic thing to it somehow.
Marc:It's like this is the hill they're going to die on.
Marc:There is no other hill.
Marc:They are going to keep going out there.
Marc:And he sounded great and he looked great, but there was a perseverance to it there.
Marc:There was a sort of like, you know, of course we're doing this.
Marc:Of course I'm doing this.
Marc:But it felt like a living eulogy on some level to Garcia and to what that band was and what it stood for.
Marc:But they did a good job with everything.
Marc:It was a joyous event, but I just saw it, that Bill was like, you know, it was sort of like, this is how he's going to go out, man.
Marc:It's like Dylan, too.
Marc:They're just out there.
Marc:They're out on that stage doing it like they always have done it for 50 or 60 years.
Marc:And it's relatively timeless stuff.
Marc:And I thought John Mayer did a great job.
Marc:I didn't have the emotional connection I have to Jerry.
Marc:You know, you create a whole backstory and mythology.
Marc:And there is one.
Marc:I had a good time.
Marc:I guess that's all I'm trying to say.
Marc:I can't say that I relapsed, but man, there was a lot of weed in the air, and about an hour in, you know, how could I fight it?
Marc:Was it going to hold my breath?
Marc:So I got a freebie, kind of, and it was kind of nice.
Marc:Wasn't heavy, but I'm like, I feel a little, all right.
Marc:Well, just enjoy it, you fuck.
Marc:That's what I said to myself.
Marc:That's what woke up inside of me.
Marc:It wasn't the desire to do more, but that angry voice.
Marc:that pushed back on me ruining even the best of times said enjoy it you fuck and i rocked and i swayed and i did the hippie jig and i got lost man i got lost in the music did i mention shauna duggins is on the show i wanted to talk about this in terms of hurting yourself
Marc:Um, I'm a 56 year old man.
Marc:I'm in pretty good shape.
Marc:I eat pretty well.
Marc:And I exercise a lot.
Marc:And I almost I had a revelation.
Marc:Is it a revelation at the gym the other day when I was about to go into a squat?
Marc:And I wasn't even doing the free weight squats.
Marc:I wasn't balanced.
Marc:There was a machine holding the bar, one of those ones where you get some support with the bar.
Marc:And I was doing the heavy ones, and I lifted it onto my shoulders, and I just heard something in the back of my neck go...
Marc:It was like a dull thud that felt like a couple of vertebraes just popped, separated or something.
Marc:And I'm like, that's not good.
Marc:And then I waited a few seconds to see if my legs were going to go out from underneath me.
Marc:And then I thought how that would be.
Marc:Could you imagine ending up in a wheelchair because of a squat accident?
Marc:And I'm not mocking anybody that that happened to, but it was at that point I realized, how much weight do I really have to do at this point in my life?
Marc:What am I trying to do?
Marc:Does my ass have to be that tight?
Marc:Am I that worried about the roundness of my ass?
Marc:Shouldn't I be doing more flexibility exercises, some core work?
Marc:Why am I fucking squatting all this weight to where I almost broke my fucking neck?
Marc:that's right that's the revelation i had hey maybe i shouldn't break my neck at the gym where i end up in a wheelchair and people are like jesus what happened to mark it's a squat pro is a vanity accident it's a squatting issue well he broke his neck doing a squat yeah and he hadn't even done the exercise yet he broke it lifting the weights onto his shoulders and
Marc:It's a squatting accident.
Marc:That's horrible.
Marc:Well, yeah, we're all going in for electric chair for him for his birthday.
Marc:Can you give something?
Marc:I guess.
Marc:We're also getting him a gym membership.
Marc:Now, is that right?
Marc:Is that funny?
Marc:Is that right to do?
Marc:Look, folks, just be careful when he's squatting.
Marc:That's all I'm saying.
Marc:Watch it with the weights.
Marc:Watch it out there in the cars on New Year's.
Marc:So my guest today was very, I'm glad I talked to her.
Marc:I always liked her.
Marc:I've never talked to a stunt person before, but Shauna Duggins is the stunt coordinator for GLOW.
Marc:She is the first woman to receive an Emmy for Outstanding Stunt Coordination for her work on that show.
Marc:She's nominated for a third consecutive Screen Actors Guild Award for this season of GLOW.
Marc:And she's a badass.
Marc:And this is me talking to Shawna Duggins.
Marc:Have you done this before?
Marc:No.
Marc:Come on.
Guest:No.
Marc:You've never done any mic work?
Guest:No.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Exciting.
Marc:The woman who does the stunts has never done any sort of voiceover action.
Guest:I have not.
Marc:Well, that's exciting.
Marc:So how have you been, Shawna?
Guest:I have been great.
Guest:Thank you, Mark.
Marc:You found a window of opportunity to hang out and talk to me?
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:Looking forward to it.
Marc:What have you been doing?
Marc:What exciting, death-defying feats have you been up to lately?
Guest:I was coordinating the Jim Carrey TV show Kidding.
Marc:Oh, right.
Marc:I heard about that.
Marc:What's the other guy's name?
Marc:The old actor.
Guest:Frank Langella.
Marc:Yes, Frank Langella.
Guest:And Judy Greer.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:Oh, yeah, I love her.
Guest:It's a great cast.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I just started, we started shooting about a week, week and a half ago, a movie called Yes Day.
Marc:Yes Day?
Guest:Uh-huh, with Jennifer Garner and Edgar Ramirez.
Guest:It's a comedy.
Guest:Very fun family show.
Marc:And you're a coordinator on that as well?
Uh-huh.
Marc:So, all right, let me ask you something like out of the gate here as a stunt person, because I see that, you know, I've been on a few sets, but I'm not I'm no journeyman.
Marc:I'm no like I don't have that much experience.
Marc:But what constitutes the need for some person?
Marc:Because sometimes like, you know, if a guy just has to fall, you know, trip over a rug.
Marc:They bring in stunt people.
Marc:Like, all of a sudden, you just have to pretend to fall down.
Marc:And it's like, we got the stunt people here, the coordinators here.
Marc:It's like, do I need that?
Marc:How does it work like that?
Guest:I think it depends partly on the show and then partly on the actor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Obviously with action movies, there's a lot more.
Guest:So a lot of times you get the time, and we get it on GLOW, where you get the time to train the actresses.
Guest:So you know what they're all capable of and how good they are and what you can get from them.
Guest:Sometimes you step on a show for a day and it's trip over a rug, but the director is, we don't know what the actor is.
Guest:Is he going to want to hit the ground?
Guest:You can't hide a pad and he wants to take it and he's in his underwear.
Guest:So now is he going to want to hit the concrete?
Marc:Because sometimes you get there.
Marc:Sometimes you get on set and they're like, no, we don't really need you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's fine.
Guest:Sometimes it's been taking care of.
Marc:Easy work.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You're taking care of the actor and either padding them up or helping them and figuring out what the shot is that the director wants.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Because I had a stunt double on my show, Marin, where I had to stand in the middle of a street.
Marc:in a hospital gown holding an IV bag.
Marc:And two cars crossing me on either side.
Marc:And eventually, they were like, can you just do it?
Marc:Do you think you can do it?
Marc:I'm like, yeah, I can do it.
Marc:The drivers are good.
Marc:So that guy had an easy day work looking like me.
Guest:Well, and sometimes it's setting it up.
Guest:So you put the drivers in and you hire incredible drivers for that.
Guest:And then you put the double in, get it all set up.
Guest:How close can we put them?
Guest:What do we need to do?
Guest:And then, okay, Mark, now you step in the middle.
Guest:But you'll never fail if you don't put great people in those spots with driving.
Guest:Then the director will say on the day...
Guest:So do you think he could now slide the car and stop right in front of him or just nearly miss him or, you know, they'll change?
Marc:And that's when I'm like, you know, maybe we'll get the other guy in here.
Marc:Maybe that'd be a good idea.
Marc:I'm too scared.
Marc:I'm not supposed to look terrified.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, so it just varies for every show.
Marc:But a lot of times you could get there and there'd be like, well, I'm glad you're here.
Marc:But and you just you just talk an actor through it and you don't actually need to do any.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And like this show yesterday is a comedy.
Guest:So a lot of that physical comedy is seeing the actor or the actress do it on their face.
Guest:It's not you're hoping to not use the double as much.
Marc:Right.
Marc:For shtick.
Guest:Yeah, it's just funnier.
Guest:But there's times when you're just a backup or you're figuring it out and then you step in and help them.
Marc:So how long have you been doing it?
Guest:About 18 years.
Marc:How old were you when he started?
Marc:Five.
Marc:I'm not going to ask you how old you are.
Marc:Okay, there you go.
Marc:She was five years.
Marc:It's amazing.
Marc:The youngest stunt person ever.
Guest:Ever.
Marc:Five years old.
Guest:It was before the studio said kids can't do stunts.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're throwing you off of boats, off of buildings.
Marc:So you've been doing it a long time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I started my first big movie.
Guest:It was the first Charlie's Angels.
Guest:I went in and auditioned.
Guest:I didn't even know what I was auditioning for.
Guest:I had been a gymnast my whole life.
Guest:All right.
Guest:Let's go back then.
Marc:Let's figure it out.
Marc:So where do you come from?
Guest:you're going to get in this head and finally someone's going to figure it out.
Marc:If it hasn't been done already, I doubt I'll do it.
Marc:Maybe you're just not letting people figure it out.
Marc:Maybe that's your problem, Shawna.
Marc:Maybe all this stunt is just a defense mechanism to keep people out of your head.
Guest:You could be right.
Marc:There we go.
Marc:So where'd you grow up?
Guest:I grew up inland of San Diego in the desert, Imperial Valley.
Marc:Oh, Imperial Valley?
Marc:Is that like Death Valley?
Marc:Is that like that desert?
Guest:It's not that desert, but in the summer it feels about like that desert.
Marc:Imperial Valley.
Marc:So you grew up in the California wasteland.
Marc:Is that what that is?
Guest:Well, it's agriculture.
Marc:Oh, it is?
Marc:Yeah, a lot of ag.
Marc:And what did your family do out there?
Marc:What was going on in the desert?
Guest:My dad was a contractor, still is a contractor.
Guest:And then my mom did several things.
Guest:All growing up, she owned video stores.
Marc:Video stores?
Marc:Like videotapes?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Like before Blockbuster?
Guest:In competition with Blockbuster.
Marc:So you were the local video store that some people would go to because they're like, fuck Blockbuster.
Marc:We like you.
Marc:What's your mom's name?
Guest:Kathy.
Marc:We like you, Kathy.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:And that's the way it worked?
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And then Blockbuster tried to buy her out.
Guest:And then she got really close to a deal and then they were going to fire all her employees and hire them cheaper.
Guest:So she told them no.
Marc:She stood up for the workers.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And then did they eventually put her out of business?
Guest:No, eventually they all went out about the same time.
Marc:Videos were over.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:So that was her thing when you were growing up, video stores?
Guest:So I grew up from probably third, fourth grade all the way through high school, working there in the summers, at night, just helping.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So that was kind of my love of movie was I watched films my whole life.
Marc:Did it have the dirty section in back?
Marc:Did she have a dirty section?
Guest:One of them did.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, she had several?
Guest:She had five stores, and only the first one did, and then when she bought her partner out and closed it, she didn't... Got rid of the dirty section?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But as a kid, when you... The best is my dad...
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:He said the dirty title.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And you're just little kids.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And some of them have very similar titles as the kids movies, which is really bad.
Marc:I never noticed that.
Marc:Do you have any examples of that?
Guest:Oh, I don't.
Guest:But I do remember parents bringing him and I was like, I don't know that that's the right one.
Marc:This doesn't look like the cover.
Guest:Of the Disney movie.
Guest:It's a very close title, though.
Marc:Oh, that's right.
Marc:So they do those.
Marc:They do the fake.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:On like Sweeping Beauty or those kind of movies.
Marc:Some dirty.
Guest:And the most embarrassing is when you call the late list and you're like 14 years old and you're, hey, your movie's two weeks late.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Marc:Could you return a Buttman 3, please?
Guest:Bingo.
Guest:And the wife answers.
Guest:And you're like, if your husband could just call us.
Guest:He has a movie that's overdue.
Guest:We don't have it.
Guest:We haven't written any movies.
Marc:Oh, OK.
Guest:Well, there's one on your account.
Guest:What's it called?
Marc:No, you didn't.
Guest:If you could just have him call the store, that would be great.
Marc:Yeah, I think this is between us.
Guest:I always tried to not sell him out.
Marc:All right, so you're doing, how many brothers and sisters you got?
Guest:I have an older brother.
Marc:So you're in the desert, Imperial Valley, dad's contractor, working at the video store and watching movies.
Marc:So when does like gymnastics come in?
Marc:When do you start doing that?
Guest:I started gymnastics when I was seven.
Marc:So you're like a gymnastics girl.
Guest:Yeah, I competed my whole life.
Guest:And so my mom would drive me up probably twice a week to compete in meets in San Diego, which was two hours.
Marc:What was your specialty?
Guest:Growing up, you do everything.
Marc:Really?
Marc:So you did the horse thing.
Guest:Vault.
Marc:The vault.
Marc:You did the hoops.
Guest:Nope, those are men's.
Marc:Oh, those are men's.
Marc:You did the... Uneven bars.
Marc:Oh, those look hard.
Marc:They look painful.
Guest:I'm surprised you didn't say the balance beam.
Guest:That's the one usually men don't like.
Marc:The balance beam was pretty exciting.
Marc:So the vaulting, the uneven bars, balance beam, then floor work.
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Those are the ones.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:What were you best at?
Guest:In high school, I would probably say beam, which is funny because in college that became my least event.
Guest:Like I was strongest at bars.
Guest:But I think a lot of it became coaching because when I went into college, I had a really great coach that loved bars.
Guest:And so I had a growth spurt.
Guest:I was only 5'3 when I went on my recruiting trips.
Marc:But that's pretty good for gymnasts, right?
Marc:Aren't you supposed to be kind of squat?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, but when you show up and you're 5'8 and then you grow to be almost 5'9 your freshman year, he's like, I don't remember recruiting a tall girl.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:So, you know, I had that to work with, with just longer arms and legs.
Guest:So I could do everything, but it was just like a neon light would flash when my knee would bend of like, huh, bad form, bad form, knee bend.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:My freshman year.
Guest:And then I kind of figured it back out a little.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That is tall for a gymnast then.
Guest:Yeah, very.
Marc:Were you gunning for Olympic status?
Marc:Were you doing that whole thing?
Marc:Were you hoping to get into the Olympics?
Guest:I never really thought about the Olympics much because usually by, I didn't have a club program that could get you ready for the Olympics.
Guest:There's only a handful in the country that really truly can unless you're just miraculously in one of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then most of the time they've moved away to that gym at like 9, 10, 11.
Guest:And I didn't know that I wanted to do it that much at that age.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So for me, it was always about college.
Marc:So you weren't like a lunatic and your mother wasn't a lunatic trying to build a little gymnastics monster.
Guest:No.
Marc:For the Olympic team.
Guest:No, I played other sports in high school and I did basketball and volleyball.
Guest:And then, um, my parents actually coached the tennis team, which my brother was very good.
Guest:And I, to this day, I'll watch tennis and I'll be like, dad, why didn't you let me play tennis?
Guest:And he's like, I tried.
Guest:You did not want to do gymnastics.
Guest:You didn't want to play tennis.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Tennis is more practical because like if you play tennis, you could be like on the weekend.
Marc:So, hey, you want to go play some tennis?
Marc:You can't do that with gymnastics.
Guest:No, but I don't know that it would have given me the same career path.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But can you play tennis?
Guest:I can.
Guest:I can't say that I'm very good because I don't go play very often.
Marc:Is your brother still good?
Guest:My brother was very good.
Guest:The problem is that having a fun party lifestyle became more important than tennis.
Marc:So he got out of the tennis.
Guest:Yeah, he had scholarships and then decided school was much more fun than playing tennis.
Marc:Did he end up on his feet, that guy?
Guest:Yeah, he did.
Guest:Just took a roundabout way to get there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:That happens.
Marc:Different paths.
Marc:Sometimes you got to take the other path for a while.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So now, so it got you into college.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And you competed all through college?
Guest:I did.
Marc:And then what did you graduate?
Marc:What was your degree in?
Guest:business and then minored in uh econ and theater did that do oh well theater is interesting did the business help you in any way did you go into business after you graduated no i had um you know 21 i show up in my little suit because i should probably go and do some interviews yeah so i show up and get offered some jobs and you're thinking well i should take these this is a lot of money at 21 years old like what
Guest:um ad agencies and then consulting firms uh-huh and so did you take them no my mom gave me really great advice she's like is this what you want to do and i said i don't think so i really want to be in the entertainment industry i love performing i love i didn't first i didn't exactly know about stunts right but it was something to do with telling the story of film but you did theater
Guest:I did.
Guest:I took classes, but I never did theater because I was always on the road for gymnastics.
Marc:Oh, acting classes and stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Did you like them?
Guest:I did.
Guest:They were fun.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you knew somehow through watching movies, but you weren't fascinated with stunts necessarily when you were a kid.
Guest:I didn't even really know it existed.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I guess you know there are stunt people, but if you don't grow up around it, I didn't really think about that process that somebody did that.
Marc:So after your mother says your heart is not in being a consultant or being in advertising, you just knew you wanted to be in the entertainment.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She said, you know, you're 21.
Guest:You have your whole life that you got your degree and that's what we asked of you.
Guest:And go and you don't have bills.
Guest:You don't have debt.
Guest:Like, go figure out what you want to do.
Guest:You can always go back and get that job.
Marc:All right.
Guest:So I moved to L.A.
Marc:With nothing, just not knowing what you were going to do.
Guest:I only knew one person, and I thought, is it acting?
Guest:Is it directing?
Guest:I don't know what aspect exactly of the film industry, but I knew I loved film and telling a story and that side of it.
Guest:So I went to some acting classes.
Marc:Which ones?
Guest:Ernie Lively.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:And it's Blake Lively's dad, and I ended up working for him.
Guest:And so I was his assistant.
Marc:Oh, and you were at the studio?
Mm-hmm.
Marc:It is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he just he wasn't he's an actor and acting coach for kids.
Guest:And so then I randomly went in the gym.
Marc:Where'd you end up living first when you first got here?
Guest:I had one friend from college who was moving here and we ended up just an apartment in Studio City.
Marc:And what did that friend end up doing?
Guest:She is a dancer and an actress.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Doing all right?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's good.
Marc:She's doing great.
Marc:All right, so you're working for the lively guy in the acting school.
Guest:Yep.
Marc:You're living in Studio City.
Marc:That was your job.
Guest:That was my job.
Guest:And quickly, within the first few months, I went to a gym.
Marc:A gym, just a regular gym?
Guest:Like a gymnastics club that had an open gym.
Guest:And so I went in just because it was home.
Guest:I had been competing since I was seven.
Marc:So you just wanted to jump around a little bit?
Guest:I just wanted to jump around.
Marc:I wanted to do some flips.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So I went in, and it was a gym where all these stunt people were training.
Guest:And they quickly became friends.
Guest:They were exceptionally talented at stunts, whether it was martial arts, fights, tricking, gymnastics.
Guest:And we all would train.
Guest:They'd go train five nights a week, and I just kind of was – it was these guys, and it was a group of –
Guest:Guys that were filmmakers, they saw beyond just falling to the ground.
Marc:Were they old timers or young guys?
Guest:No, they were all fairly young.
Guest:They're probably five years ahead of me in the business.
Marc:And I would tag along.
Marc:They were just training to keep in shape?
Guest:No, they were training like we would tumble and do gymnastics and I would help them.
Guest:And then they were martial artists, so they would all help me.
Guest:They'd be doing all these things and I'd be over on the beam holding it doing basic kicks.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And then pretty soon I was jumping in and you're doing choreography.
Marc:You mean like how do you execute this stunt?
Guest:No, just playing, like actually putting fights together for film and filming them and doing wire gags and training.
Guest:At the gym?
Guest:At the gym.
Guest:Well, there was different.
Guest:One person had a dojo.
Guest:One had a gymnastics club.
Guest:So we would go to different gyms every night of the week.
Wow.
Marc:And that was just something you were doing for fun in a way to begin with.
Guest:It became where I felt the most at home here.
Marc:And you were interested in the whole process.
Guest:I was absolutely in love with it.
Guest:And so within a year of training them every day, I said, I finally were all eating.
Guest:And I said, you guys, I want to do stunts.
Guest:And they kind of said, we figured that a year ago.
Guest:I mean, you're just now figuring this out.
Guest:But I was, for the most part, the only girl that would tag along.
Guest:And when I say these guys are talented, I'm talking about...
Guest:as you you would know them more now but like chad stahowski yeah who just directed john wick one two and three and then dave leach is a part of that group that i trained with and dave leach directed um john wick one as well and then he went off and just crushed it with atomic blonde and deadpool two and then you hobbs and shaw so these guys were these guys were sort of like you know stunt gym guys that went on to direct these movies
Guest:Yeah, when I met Chad, he had just finished the first Matrix.
Guest:He doubled Keanu, and he was getting ready to do the sequels two and three.
Guest:And Dave was doubling Brad Pitt.
Guest:And what?
Guest:I think several, three or four movies right before that.
Guest:And then Mike Gunther, Marcus Young, Tim Connolly, J.J.
Guest:Perry.
Guest:It was this amazing, talented group of people.
Marc:And they all went on to be directors?
Yeah.
Guest:uh two of them three of them are and then one is about to direct his first film yeah and then the other one's been doing a lot of second unit huh so that's what i mean they're not just like let me fall down and get hit by a car they actually want to tell a story and get into film and they're talented i get it i get it i just never knew that that was an avenue like because obviously they wanted to direct from the beginning so this was their way in
Guest:Well, I don't know if they wanted to direct from the beginning.
Guest:I think it's a passion.
Guest:But I think the evolution with stunts is you are a stunt performer.
Guest:And then if you're very good at that, a lot of them end up coordinating.
Guest:And then from that, a lot end up shooting second unit, directing second unit.
Guest:And then there's a handful that these doors have, they've kicked the door open, especially Chad and Dave, where they have crushed it doing First Unit.
Guest:And it's their movie, and they're incredible with the action and with storytelling.
Guest:And, I mean, Spiro Rosado does, he directs Second Unit, and he was a stunt performer.
Guest:But, I mean, he does all the Fast and Furious for Second Unit, directs them.
Guest:He does, like, almost every car movie out there.
Marc:But the other two guys are the actual directors of the movie.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:It's weird because that whole part of the business where even in sound and lighting and everything else where there's entire communities and there's this sort of hierarchy of learning and getting better jobs or getting in angling.
Marc:But anytime you're on a set for as long as you're on the set doing these things, it's going to be hard not to become enchanted with other parts of it.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And I think for me with stunts, it's always been a piece of if the action isn't moving the story along, it's just an explosion for an explosion.
Guest:I want it to tell the story and make you feel the emotion through it.
Marc:But you've done some explosions for explosions, haven't you?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:What about superhero movies?
Guest:That's what we do.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But then that just directing kind of becomes a part of extension of getting the whole story then.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And then I think that like also because you and what, Helena, is that her name?
Marc:Yeah, are on set on GLOW with Chavo.
Marc:You know, you're coordinating the, like I've seen you on set every day, every time I'm there and it becomes sort of a family.
Marc:And when it's TV and it requires every, you got to be there the whole time.
Marc:I mean, you're sort of invested in the whole arc of the thing.
Marc:It's not like one day or it's not like just one movie.
Marc:It's like it's a whole 10 episodes.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And you're there the whole time.
Marc:So you can visualize the story and understand how all this stuff fits in.
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:And for that show, especially, it's not just, OK, let's just wrestle.
Guest:It's really let's think about, OK, Betty as Liberty Bell.
Guest:OK, now Liberty Bell is crossing over to be Zoya.
Guest:OK, Allie as Zoya.
Guest:Like, what are their signature moves and what are their characters?
Marc:And also the tension between the two of them personally.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:I mean the characters, and then as characters.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so now, how do you get your first break?
Marc:And also, before we get into that, though, because I've read some books lately about the 70s and stuff, and there definitely was...
Marc:The stunt people, mostly men then, were a kind of like, you know, crazy bunch of hot dogging lunatics, you know, drunks and daredevils.
Marc:Is that still the case with that community?
Marc:I mean, like they seemed like real hard dudes that were if they weren't like, but I guess it was post war and there was a different type of person, real cowboys and fucking drug addicts and lunatics.
Yeah.
Guest:I think the time has definitely changed in the industry as a whole from the 70s or 80s.
Marc:Are those guys still around, though?
Guest:Absolutely.
Guest:I work with a lot of them, but they've changed and grown.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:The ones that lived, you would think they'd change a bit.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I think it's...
Guest:It's always a risk when you do big stunts, but it's also, you know, they keep asking for more and more and more.
Guest:And so it's, you know, the equipment is often better now for descenders and decelerators for very high gags.
Guest:What does all that mean?
Guest:Like if you jump off a building, say, 200 feet.
Marc:A descender?
Guest:And you're hooked to a cable.
Marc:Yeah, that's called a descender?
Guest:Uh-huh, it's a descender or a decelerator, yeah.
Marc:Oh, the same thing, decelerator, decelerator.
Guest:Well, one is a free fall, and then it decels you at the bottom, and then one can set your speed the whole way down.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:But that equipment gets better and better.
Marc:Good.
Marc:I think it used to be just you'd jump off and there'd be a balloon at the bottom.
Guest:Oh, there is still sometimes an airbag.
Marc:Yeah, just an airbag.
Marc:Good luck.
Marc:We're going to have to keep doing it until we get the speed right, I guess.
Guest:Well, it depends.
Guest:I mean, if you're jumping into an airbag, the speed is going to be gravity.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:No changing.
Marc:You're not changing it.
Marc:Do you know that guy, that guy Brett, the guy with one leg?
Guest:Brett Smurs.
Guest:Smurs, yeah.
Guest:Yes, he's a fantastic driver.
Guest:I know his dad very well.
Marc:Like, that's a whole family of stunt dudes?
Guest:Well, the dad is Greg, and then his brother is Brian, and they are fantastic.
Guest:They both second unit direct a lot.
Guest:Brian is probably second unit directed...
Guest:just about every marvel movie or most of them a lot of them and then greg has second ejected a ton and then brett is greg's son and he's a fantastic driver he is an amputee below the knee yeah and you would never know i just he worked for me on kidding came in crushed it in a car and nobody knows and he just goes along his day i mean he it happened i don't know he was maybe 14 or 15 so not a stunt accident
Guest:No, at home.
Guest:I believe, if I remember the story right, he jumped off the roof onto a trampoline and then off and had an accident.
Guest:And he was already an incredible go-kart racer.
Marc:I guess if you come from that family, yeah.
Marc:All right, so how do you get... No one in your family is in show business.
Guest:Nope, nobody.
Marc:You're the first one.
Marc:So you're hanging around this gym, you're getting all these chops, you're learning all this stuff, just hanging around because you like to do it.
Marc:How do you get the first job?
Guest:Well, the first one I was, I was X-Files was one day and they had sent everybody into audition.
Guest:And so a friend said, oh, there's a girl that trains with us all the time.
Guest:She's very new and green, but she's really talented.
Guest:So I went in an audition and the stunt coordinator introduces me to Chris Carter, who is the nicest man.
Guest:I'd never seen the show and did not know he was a creator.
Guest:And I was like, well, he's really nice.
Marc:Who's that guy?
Guest:He's great.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And they kept asking me to do certain things, and so I would tumble for them.
Guest:She's in a game, so she's fighting David Duchovny in the game, flips down the alley, flips over him, and then fights him.
Marc:Like a gymnastic flip, like boom.
Guest:Yeah, in an alley on concrete, in heels, and that was my opening to stunts.
Guest:So I auditioned, and...
Guest:The wording that they were using, I don't think was what they wanted to see.
Guest:But when you don't know the lingo.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I said, do you mind if I show you something?
Guest:I think this is what you really want to see.
Guest:Here's, you know, 21 year old version of a naive girl that's going to tell them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think this is what you're asking for.
Guest:And so I show them and then they were like, that's what we've been wanting to see.
Guest:And it was just it was just they wanted you to tumble forward and.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But you can't tumble forward with the speed at backwards, but you just have to start the direction this way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was just the wording of what they were asking for gymnastics wise.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And so I showed him that and then I booked that and later you realize how much of a risk he took on me because I also had to hit a mini tramp in heels and flip over David Duchovny and not land on his head and break his neck and you know, you're brand new and he's like, okay.
Guest:He was great.
Guest:So then my...
Guest:Second job, they said, hey, do you want to audition for a movie?
Guest:I didn't know what it was.
Guest:It's for the Hong Kong team.
Guest:So I went in.
Marc:The Hong Kong team?
Guest:The Hong Kong team.
Guest:They had just finished Matrix, and it was the brother, and he was now doing this movie, which is all fights and martial arts.
Marc:What are those guys?
Marc:What were those brothers' names?
Guest:Wu Ping and Chen Yen.
Marc:They were.
Guest:Well, Ping did all the fights on Matrix and Chen Yen was his brother.
Marc:They're called the Hong Kong team.
Guest:That's what this.
Guest:Yeah, that's what they call them because the whole team.
Guest:So they I went in and auditioned and then a couple weeks later auditioned again and then they offered me the job and it was Charlie's Angels.
Marc:And that's a big movie.
Guest:At the time, it was huge.
Guest:And it was three lead women.
Guest:And then the bad girl was lead.
Guest:So it was a woman.
Guest:So it was everything you could think of between Cars, High Falls, the second unit director, Vic Armstrong, and Andy Armstrong, who are some of the biggest in the business.
Guest:And they are amazing.
Marc:Just break it down for me.
Marc:A second unit director is usually, it's not all stunts.
Guest:Usually second unit is because they're picking up all the big pieces of stunts.
Guest:So they're either doing entire sequences or they're picking up, like say, if you did a fight on first unit, now they're picking up everything that they didn't shoot on the actors with the doubles.
Guest:Or like in this case, it's a, hey, have you done an 80 foot high fall?
Guest:He calls me and I said, I haven't done, I've done 50, but can I have the weekend and I'll let you know if I can do 80 mentally.
Guest:So I went out and practiced and called him back on Monday and said, yes.
Marc:That was for Charlie's Angels.
Guest:That was for Charlie's Angels.
Marc:Mentally.
Marc:Well, that's an interesting thing.
Marc:So what is the mental tools, even for the first thing?
Marc:Okay, so you've got to wear high heels.
Marc:You've never done it before, and you've got to launch yourself over the company.
Marc:So you know you have the physical tools in place, but what do you do to clear your mind?
Marc:Is it just like a type of fearlessness?
Marc:You can't doubt yourself at all, right?
Yeah.
Guest:It's funny is I've had less fear in stunts than I did in gymnastics.
Guest:Gymnasts are very known to have mental blocks.
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:I think because you're always... Like mental blocks to what?
Guest:Like you'll do a trick, maybe you do a double back.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then one day you go in and you're just like...
Guest:I don't know if I can do it.
Guest:You have to spot me or you have to stand right there and then I can do it.
Guest:And your coach is standing there going, I can't even reach you if I needed to, but you're going to do it if I stand on this blue spot.
Marc:Oh, so there's a fear kick.
Guest:A fear kind of kicks in and like weird mental, just stand there even though you can't touch me.
Marc:Like all of a sudden you don't know how to do it.
Guest:Yeah, it's just I think it feeds off of the energy of other teammates versus in club.
Guest:I was always the one that would just be like, send Shauna, she'll do it.
Guest:And they would figure it out on me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then in college, you see other girls that have mental blocks and it starts to have them with you.
Guest:And then you push through them and then something else comes, you know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:versus with stunts things that i may have my coach stand there and do a dismount off a bar say yeah can you stand there now i've done it in stunts off a pipe to an eight inch mat with nothing else around and no grips and you're like in the perfect environment you can set up a mental block but i think with stunts you realize quickly that
Guest:You either can or you can't.
Guest:And if you can't, you don't take the job.
Guest:And if you can, time is money.
Guest:So for you to sit up there and talk yourself into it for 20 minutes, you don't have that luxury.
Guest:And production doesn't have that luxury.
Guest:So you just do it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:But how do you know you can't?
Marc:Just fear?
Marc:Or is that what it is?
Marc:Like, what was the process between, okay, I've only done a 50-foot jump.
Marc:And now you want me to do an 80.
Marc:Let me wrap my brain around that.
Guest:Well, I knew physically I could.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So now let me just make sure mentally I'm not going to get up there and choke on you.
Marc:Freak out.
Guest:So I got up there and there was this stuntman, Bob Yerkes, who was a circus performer.
Guest:He had a big high fall tower in his back.
Guest:yard so one of the guys i trained buddy it's kind of a he's an older he's probably in his 80s and his time maybe in his 60s so he's a friend of a friend and hey we can go train so some guy goes like i know this old stunt guy's got a tower and we'll go over there yeah and he's just like he just hangs out at home and so he's not even there most of the time or if he was i never saw him younger stunt people are like hey man can we use the thing
Guest:Pretty much.
Guest:Can we use it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He had a Russian swing.
Guest:What is that?
Guest:He had all these cool things.
Guest:It's like one person's on it and another and you ride it and then it pitches.
Guest:I can visually show you with my hands better.
Guest:He's an old timey stunt guy?
Guest:Yeah, like an old time circus guy.
Marc:And you never met him?
Guest:Oh, yeah, I've met him, but at the time he wasn't ever there when we would go train.
Guest:I mean, rarely.
Marc:And he did stunts in like the 60s or 70s or whatever?
Guest:I would say.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he's still around?
Guest:He's still around.
Guest:I see him occasionally, like the stunt awards and that kind of stuff.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like he's like one of the old timers?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And he's got all his pieces and parts?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And everything's working?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so you go to his house.
Guest:So I go there, and at this time, he just has a tower.
Guest:So it's a ladder.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:And they have an airbag down, and airbags are rated to certain heights because the pressure and how they're set up.
Marc:Oh, they can't be too inflated.
Marc:It'll bounce you off.
Guest:Yeah, and you can't do an 80-foot high fall for a bag that's rated to 50.
Guest:Because you'll go through it.
Guest:You'll risk bottom out, yeah.
Guest:So they set the airbag up, and so now I do some at, say, 40 and then 50.
Guest:And now-
Marc:It's just a free fall.
Guest:Yes, just a free fall.
Guest:Just jump.
Guest:So the friend that is helping me there makes me carry the step up the ladder.
Guest:So meaning I have to hook my legs around the ladder, take the step off.
Guest:It's a metal step that's like a foot wide by two feet long.
Marc:Oh, from the 50 feet.
Guest:Climb up the ladder like 10 feet.
Marc:And it hooks on?
Guest:Rehook it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And climb up and step up there.
Guest:Because he was trying to make me comfortable each bit I went up.
Marc:And you've got no string or nothing attached?
Guest:Nothing.
Marc:And you're just up there at 80 feet?
Guest:So now I get to 80 feet and I'm looking down and it was like, whew.
Oh, man.
Guest:That looks like a postage stamp and I'm going to land on it.
Guest:And he's like, just jump already.
Guest:So I did.
Guest:I did it eight times so that I knew I felt comfortable if I needed to do it repeatedly.
Marc:It's like installing a little muscle memory.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you do you.
Guest:I think my biggest lesson that day is maybe on the third or the fourth, you start to feel really comfortable and you get a little complacent.
Guest:And so when I landed, I kind of whipped my head in, which was fine.
Guest:But your neck is going to be sore.
Guest:But it also reminded me from that day on that it was like, OK, I really have to think about what I'm doing in the air.
Guest:So I land a specific way to keep myself safe.
Marc:Do you love it?
Guest:It was awesome.
Guest:But it is that fear.
Guest:You have to kind of... People always say, oh, you don't have any fear.
Guest:Oh, I have a fear.
Guest:I think it's more of I have a respect.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, I mean, I think, like I said earlier, that once you have certain tools in place and you take the risk or you practice, you know, just to get over that, like, you know, I don't know if I can do this.
Marc:And then you do it, you know, you can do it.
Marc:Then you do it 10 times and you're like, all right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Then that that kind of takes the fear out of it.
Marc:And it just can get you just have to engage the skill set.
Guest:Well, it's even, say, like a 250-foot descender.
Guest:You've tested it with- I can't even picture that.
Marc:It's like jumping off a bridge?
Guest:20 to 25 stories up.
Marc:Come on, man.
Guest:And you're high-rise building.
Guest:You've done that?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So you have to jump off.
Guest:Now, we've tested it with weights.
Guest:We know it's all good.
Guest:But still, somebody has to ride it for the first time.
Guest:And that's where it comes for me-
Guest:Who is rigging it?
Guest:My life is in their hands and I trust them with my life.
Guest:So there are certain people that I would trust with anything because they have had my life in their hands repeatedly.
Marc:Was it like a handful of people?
Marc:Have you been on a set and been like, I don't want that guy.
Marc:I need another person to.
Guest:No, but I have asked before.
Guest:Well, you know, hey, do you want to do this, this gag?
Guest:Who's rigging it?
Guest:And I think it's a fair question.
Marc:In the beginning, a gag didn't you call them gags?
Guest:Yeah, a gag, a stunt.
Guest:Like, especially a high gag where my life is in their life.
Marc:Why do they call them gags?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Where'd that come from?
Guest:It's a gag.
Guest:It's a stunt.
Marc:I know.
Marc:A stunt's a stunt.
Marc:A gag's a joke.
Marc:But okay.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:Maybe it's a way to disarm the whole language of it.
Marc:Like, yeah, we're just going to do a gag, do a thing, jump off a bridge.
Marc:So you have asked.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think the beginning I didn't.
Guest:And so you learn quickly.
Guest:You look back and go, well, I kind of was lucky because I didn't even know who was rigging it because you're just taking the jobs.
Marc:It's sort of weird like that, what we do where we just take it for granted that things are okay.
Marc:I mean, I think about that just with bullshit, just with things we eat.
Marc:I'm like, how do I know where this came from?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Anything.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Did he wash his hands before he made the hell for my lunch?
Marc:Just weird stuff.
Marc:We just sort of like, I guess it's okay.
Marc:We do that with everything.
Marc:Oh, this car is fine.
Marc:But I could see how that really makes a difference.
Marc:If they're hungover, they're having a shitty morning and they forget to do something.
Guest:Well, and I tried that as a coordinator.
Guest:I try to always respect if somebody's doing...
Guest:you know, they're gonna do a full burn, lit on fire fully.
Guest:Or if somebody... You've done that?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:You've been lit on fire?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was lit on fire and then I raised my arms and the whole building completely around me went on fire.
Guest:For what movie?
Guest:That was for a pilot for... Didn't even make it?
Marc:Wasn't even on?
Guest:Twilight?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Became Moonlight, I think.
Guest:The network?
Guest:Alex O'Loughlin.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:No, it was fun though.
Marc:It was a big, huge burn.
Marc:Was it the only time he burned?
Yeah.
Guest:No, I've done partials, but that's the biggest one I've done.
Marc:Partial burns where it's just sort of like my arm and you're running around.
Guest:Like just your arm or one part or maybe to here or it just depends where they feel you.
Marc:But the whole body burn and the arm raise?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you had to be on fire for a minute.
Guest:I had to be on fire, come through doors.
Guest:So I stand there and then I, the hardest burn is to actually stand and do nothing.
Guest:And just burn?
Guest:Because the fire just comes up under you, into your face.
Guest:When they're moving, it's actually easier because you can move the fire away from your face a little bit.
Guest:So when you're standing there or laying there doing nothing, they're actually the hottest burns.
Guest:So I just had to stand there for... In a fire suit?
Guest:Well, you have like they take Carbonex or Nomex and they it's a fire retardant like thermals almost.
Guest:And they stick them in a bunch of fire gel.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you usually have a couple layers on and then they put a rain suit over it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which is random.
Guest:But that's when you put your clothes on.
Guest:Then your clothes don't get just ringing wet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then they put the fuel on and then burn you.
Marc:And it starts underneath the clothes?
Marc:Is that how it works?
Guest:No, it starts on the top.
Guest:The underneath is just the fuel's on the top.
Guest:The underneath is just to protect you.
Guest:It's that layer in between.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Marc:So there's no fire suit anymore.
Marc:That's the old days.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You've just got some fire-retardant underwear on.
Right.
Marc:Pretty much.
Guest:It's like my Wonder Woman underwear is when I was a kid.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what about your face though?
Marc:How is that?
Guest:It depends.
Guest:Sometimes they can put a mask on and that protects the face.
Marc:And then sometimes there's also- A mask of your face or of the character's face?
Guest:Well, usually it's just a generic one because they're so expensive to build.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Or sometimes there is also a gel that can go straight to the skin and you can burn and then it'll protect you.
Marc:But do you come out of it with a little burn here or there?
Yeah.
Guest:Normally, no.
Guest:Usually the biggest problem is the breathing because if you need to hold your breath or you need to have a regulator because that's where the hot comes in and it can burn like you can have some lungs.
Marc:So that moment where you got to jump off a building or when you're about to be set on fire, that's exciting, right?
Guest:It's very exciting.
Guest:And I think it's the rush and the adrenaline after that's awesome.
Marc:Really?
Marc:That's what you live for?
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So Charlie's Angels.
Marc:What were the stunts?
Marc:What were those?
Marc:Was that the 80 foot?
Guest:That was high falls, cars, fights.
Guest:I mean, the biggest- You do the driving?
Guest:I did some of it.
Guest:There was several different things.
Marc:Did you have to train for that?
Marc:That doesn't sound like the gymnastic angle.
Marc:So you do driving stunts?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I do.
Marc:But you had to learn that later, right?
Guest:I did.
Guest:Well, I grew up because I grew up in the desert.
Guest:We grew up on like quads and dirt bikes.
Guest:And so I had a lot of car handling experience.
Guest:But I did.
Guest:I have taken that and trained a lot in the meanwhile to get better.
Marc:Can you roll a car?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You can roll a car too, unfortunately.
Marc:Not on purpose.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:So like when you got to get into a car and you got to roll it.
Guest:It's all in how it's prepped.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Same with fire.
Guest:It's all in who preps you.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And that's where the trust comes in and effects is prepping the car and the coordinators, they're prepping the car.
Marc:How do you got to prep a car to roll it?
Guest:Well, usually there's a roll cage inside to protect you.
Guest:Oh, right.
Marc:But I mean, but the actual, the moment of rolling is up to you to jerk the wheel, right?
Guest:Well, it depends.
Guest:Usually there's probably a cannon in it.
Guest:So imagine this is like a telephone pole.
Guest:So like on Fast Five, the opening sequence, Corey Eubanks is driving that big bus.
Guest:And so I'm in the little NSX and then Oakley Lehman and Sly are behind and we kind of swap around and cross and then I do a head on.
Guest:And Corey swerves the bus, and then as he pitches the bus sideways, there's three cannons inside.
Guest:So the pressure effects is built is so strong that when he pushes the button, the pressure sends the cannons to the ground.
Marc:And it tilts the bus?
Guest:And it tips.
Guest:So it depends where they place it in the car.
Guest:Oh, I see.
Guest:So if you want the car, like, to go this way, you'll put it in this back.
Marc:So it's an air thing?
Yeah.
Guest:It's like a compression of air that is, yeah, it's hooked.
Guest:And when he hits the button, it sends it up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It sends the cannon with a lot of force to the ground and that flips the car.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:So it comes back to how the car is prepped from the coordinator and effects.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you have a great effects stunt, you know, a special effects team that builds it.
Marc:How much driving have you done?
Marc:How many cars have you rolled?
Yeah.
Guest:I haven't thankfully rolled very many.
Guest:I've rolled a couple, but mostly driving chases.
Guest:We recreated on Alcatraz the bullet car chase in San Francisco with Andy and Jack Gill, which was so much fun.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:All right, so I find it kind of crazy.
Marc:It's a crazy life, but I guess it does feel like there is the risk of injury almost always.
Guest:There is a lot.
Guest:I mean, I've been really lucky.
Guest:I've had a few.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:Like what?
Guest:I broke all the bones of my foot on a descender.
Guest:Oh, because you hit?
Guest:I hit a ledge.
Marc:Oh, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so for me, it was very early in my career and it was the best learning experience.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:When you can't walk for six months.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Fortunately, it's only six weeks because they're little bones.
Guest:OK.
Guest:But I said, I don't think I'll clear that ledge.
Guest:And yeah, yeah, yeah, you will.
Guest:Yeah, you will.
Guest:Yeah, you will.
Guest:I don't think I'll clear it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Has anybody, you know, and you're up on top and they're down below.
Guest:And so I was stupid and said, OK, if they want me to.
Marc:Who the fuck were those people?
Guest:The people that aren't jumping off the building.
Guest:The AD and then everybody up there is telling.
Guest:I ask, does the coordinator think I'm going to clear it?
Guest:Yeah, he says you're fine.
Guest:But he's down there.
Guest:Who knows if it even got to him.
Guest:But your gut was like, I don't know.
Guest:I won't clear that.
Guest:Because the way the molding was.
Guest:And I didn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So as stunt people do.
Guest:I said, don't take my boot off because you won't get it back on.
Guest:So let's get all the shots you want and just stop me above that ledge, which is only 20 feet from the ground.
Guest:After you hurt yourself?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And we did it another probably 10 times.
Marc:Weren't you in pain?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then they took me to, I said, now I take me to the ER to get x-rays.
Marc:Man.
Guest:But we shot.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:You're a trooper.
Marc:you have to get the shot that's it that's the most important get the shot no it's not but what I mean there's not much they're going to change if it's broken it's broken it's not you know and if you're not in so much pain you can't function it's fine right all right so what okay so what are the categories of stunts that you do you do all of them so you do driving you'll roll a car you'll drive fast you can they can set you on fire you'll jump off of things what do you do sword work I do
Marc:Really?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Did you have to learn that?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:Where'd you train for the sword work?
Guest:Same group of people.
Guest:Some of them, that's their specialty.
Guest:Like on Elektra and Daredevil, we use size.
Marc:But this group, though, this is just a group.
Marc:These aren't classes.
Guest:No.
Guest:These are people that hang out.
Guest:These are stunt people.
Marc:And you're like, can you show me how to do that?
Marc:Do people ask you how to do flips?
Guest:Oh, all the time.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:So one of my friends is- So that's the community.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And one of my friends was the best with size.
Guest:So when I got on Daredevil, we started to train and I was doubling Jennifer Garner on Alias.
Guest:And then we were starting to rehearse for Daredevil.
Guest:So when we wrapped, we would go there.
Marc:She's in that too?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so-
Guest:I realized quickly that I needed more work with size and the person that was there.
Guest:Size?
Guest:It's like a weapon that looks like a pitchfork sort of.
Guest:Okay, yeah.
Guest:And so I happened to look around and one of my friends who's a martial artist, that's his weapon that he's a world champion with.
Guest:So I went and trained with him like three days a week.
Marc:And that's Daredevil's weapon?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:No, that's Electra's on Daredevil.
Marc:Oh, right.
Guest:So then I set it up so he would train Jen because I wanted her to look great.
Guest:I didn't want to have to process through me.
Guest:You teach me, I'll teach her.
Guest:Like, just teach her and make her great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:With that thing.
Guest:Yeah, with size.
Guest:And then on-
Guest:On Sucker Punch, it was more swords.
Guest:So I had a broadsword.
Guest:Baby had a, I think, a katana.
Guest:And then they all had different swords and different weapons.
Guest:Which movie?
Guest:Sucker Punch.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:And then you have to pick up bits and pieces of martial arts and stuff?
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, martial arts is what I've been doing since before.
Guest:Other than gymnastics, that was kind of my passion, since just before the business, but really once I got in it.
Guest:Which ones?
Guest:Mostly taekwondo, but I feel like each movie...
Guest:you're growing in your style because each movie changes you know um a lot of like muay thai a lot of um peppermint we did was more like in tight close quarter knees and elbows and guns and you know electra and it used to be a little more wire work and a little more flashy and
Guest:jump, spin, hook, kicks.
Guest:And, you know, I mean, it's just kind of the evolution.
Guest:And then I did Ray Donovan for five years, which was much more hands and boxing.
Guest:So I think for a girl, a lot of times our weaknesses are our hands because you have danced and done gymnastics and martial arts, but you haven't necessarily boxed and done hands.
Guest:Like, boys kind of play fight.
Guest:You guys are just rough as kids.
Guest:So boxing is kind of more.
Guest:So I trained.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I trained a lot with boxing to have my hands stronger.
Marc:At the place.
Yeah.
Guest:At the place.
Guest:No, different places, but some boxing gyms.
Marc:But like I'm just fascinated with this gym where it's just like it sounds like.
Guest:It's more a group of people than a gym because we would go to like L.A.
Guest:Valley one day and then gymnastics Olympica one day and then.
Marc:But each gym, each place specializes in a thing.
Guest:No, each gym is just an open gym.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:So you could do anything you want there.
Guest:Okay, I get it.
Guest:It was just we would go with that group of people, whoever was not working that day, and we would train.
Marc:But there's no, like, teachers.
Marc:Just everybody kind of, it's just sort of like, I'll show you how to do that.
Guest:Well, and you have to imagine most of the teachers there are not going to teach.
Guest:they're gonna they're if they're teaching an adult class they're teaching like a back handspring and then i'm gonna jump on the beam and do layout step outs like it's not that they're gonna teach me you know what i mean right and then the same way you have the olympic coach for taekwondo right if you stepped into a taekwondo dojo right you're not gonna teach him he could teach it anywhere he wanted to go right you know so it's just we're all learning together and collaborating our skills
Marc:It's just an understanding you all have.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And now you can't get any of them to hardly train because they train all the time, but they're all over the world working.
Guest:So then they just train in whatever gym they can find.
Marc:I see.
Marc:So the education of the stunt person, once you start doing it, is just sort of going to the place and seeing who's around and working shit out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then if you want to drive...
Marc:And he'll let you jump off it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The best is my dad, if I had a high fall, he'd always get nervous and say, oh, call me when you're done.
Guest:I just, I don't know where you get it.
Guest:I don't, I don't know where you get these high falls, like where you want to do that.
Guest:And I was like, because when I was eight, we would jump off cliffs that were 80 feet tall into the water.
Guest:Like, where do you think I get it?
Marc:Did you do that?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We would go to Maui and go cliff jumping.
Guest:You and your old man?
Guest:And my dad and my brother, and I always wanted to go with the boys.
Guest:So I would do it.
Marc:Was it 80 feet?
Guest:The highest I did was 80 in Maui.
Marc:Just to jump into the water?
Guest:Uh-huh.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:I always wanted to do it, but every time I've gone to Hawaii, I've gone to Kauai, and there's not very high ones.
Marc:But it's got to be sort of an established thing.
Guest:Yeah, and Maui was black rock, and they've put fences around it, so you can only get to the lower, which is, I don't even know, 20 or 30.
Guest:Now you can't even get to the higher.
Yeah.
Marc:Because someone died.
Guest:Probably.
Marc:Someone ruined the fun with his life.
Guest:Dang it.
Marc:That guy.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So I do notice that you've done a lot of work with Jennifer Gardner.
Marc:So now is that something that she asks for you?
Marc:Is that you are her established stunt double for life?
Yes.
Guest:I mean, I can't say for life.
Guest:I hope so.
Marc:How does that relationship start?
Marc:Just you do a thing?
Marc:Did it start with Daredevil or the alias?
Guest:It started with alias.
Guest:Yeah, I came in.
Guest:She had a double that did the pilot in maybe one or two episodes, and she got hurt.
Guest:So I came in just for a couple days to fill in, and I was, again, all I had done was...
Guest:It literally had been less than a year, and I had done Charlie's Angels and great stuff, but I just was bouncing around.
Guest:I didn't know the coordinator.
Guest:I got referred to him.
Guest:Went in for a couple days, did a fight.
Guest:The double came back, and then she blew her knee out.
Marc:God, what's... Not her day, huh?
Guest:It's not her show.
Marc:Not her year.
Marc:Not her year.
Guest:And then...
Guest:I came back.
Guest:I worked for most of the first season and then got offered a movie, and I thought she was coming back.
Guest:So it was a John Woo movie, and I went to the coordinator, and I said, I think I should take that so she can have her job back.
Guest:I called her because they said, we want you to stay, and I felt bad because I didn't want to step on hers.
Guest:For the woman who blew her knee out?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I called her, and she said, actually, I'm fine with that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:stay on it so i went to jen and just said what do you want me to do i mean obviously i'd love to stay with you but i can do this if you want like you know you're at that point probably 22 and have opportunities that you're just still finagling your way through sure and um she's asked me to please stay with her and i think for me that's where the tall thing probably helped out the tall thing yeah
Guest:she's just fun every day.
Guest:And it's so fun to see her Instagram posts because everybody, you only see like for Alias for five years.
Guest:My mom came on set maybe the third year for a day and she's like, oh my God, she has the cutest dimples I've ever seen.
Guest:I've never seen her smile.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because she's always so serious on the show.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And to see...
Guest:I got to see that goofy, fun, caring, witty side every day.
Guest:So that's what it was like.
Guest:You know, you're going to go to work and laugh and have a good time.
Guest:That's how every job was.
Guest:And then you go to other jobs and they're harder for different reasons or whatever.
Guest:So whenever she has something, it's kind of feels like going home.
Guest:It's like getting to go back to work with your sister.
Guest:And she's a great collaborator.
Guest:She's appreciative.
Guest:She's funny.
Guest:And she has a great team that comes with her between her hair, makeup.
Guest:Me, it's like the same little team that have been with her since Alias.
Marc:So like, do you guys hang out?
Guest:Yeah, we do.
Guest:I mean, we both have, I have a five year old and she has kids, so it gets a little bit hectic, but we definitely do when we can.
Guest:And, you know, it, she's just, she's one of those people for me that you cannot see her for six months and then you can send a text and it's like, it just, you, I'll get a text and be in tears laughing so hard and send one back and you never lose step with somebody, you know, she's just that person.
Marc:So what Marvel things have you done?
Guest:Daredevil and Elektra were both Marvel.
Guest:And then I did Iron Man 3 and I doubled Gwyneth.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:What did that require?
Guest:That was a lot of wire work.
Guest:So she...
Guest:Ends up in the Iron Man suit, which was really fun to get to wear the hero Iron Man suit.
Guest:And I came on set and I didn't have the helmet on yet, but I have the suit and it's way too big on me and I'm trudging up.
Guest:And then Robert Downey Jr.
Guest:turns and he's like, there's a girl in the suit.
Guest:We've never had a girl in the suit.
Guest:in this suit he was so kind and sweet and just he took me back over and he goes do you guys understand this suit is really heavy and it's mentally hard and it's incredible that she's in it and he was so kind and giving because he's been in that suit a lot is it heavy
Guest:it's heavy i think the top because the bottom um are like mocap pants so they build the bottom but from about the hips up and it's probably about 50 pounds oh wow yeah and then um it has a few different helmets one that closes one that lifts one that opens i look like i have a tiny little pea head with a suit on when the helmet's off yeah um but there's one scene where he calls the suit on her so we did his double and i did glenn foster
Guest:Probably a 20-foot ratchet to the wall.
Marc:A ratchet?
Guest:Meaning you're in a harness and there's that same air cylinder that I was talking about with the cars.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The cannon?
Guest:Yeah, a cannon.
Marc:Good job.
Guest:So you're going to be a stuntman.
Guest:I know.
Marc:I'm going to be a coordinator.
Marc:We're going to go right to coordinator.
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:Um, so they hit the button and everything is going at the same time.
Guest:So the helicopter is supposed to be coming in and blowing up the house.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So all the windows blow, everything just blows in the house.
Guest:It's like gunfire annihilated it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And he and I go flying back.
Guest:We're hooked to wires and it's like the propulsion pulls us back to the wall.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And we hit and drop.
Guest:So then when she comes up, she's got the suit on her and then she has to go and then lay over him.
Guest:to protect him from the falling debris because he doesn't have the suit on right but it was the one thing is the first time they did it they said okay drop into this position which is a like a plank position sort of with 50 pounds extra on your top half and so i'm holding it and then they said get closer so the second take i drop in and i'm like this close to robert's face except the only problem is is the eye holes are about this big they're like little slits yeah and because the helmet was too big it dropped so the eye holes were here yeah
Guest:And I come back and I was like, you have to make the helmet smaller inside.
Guest:I'm going to be the first person that knocks Robert Downey Jr.
Guest:out or breaks his nose because I go like this and can't see where he is.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they fixed it?
Guest:They fixed it, padded the top, put it back on, and we went again.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:How many times have you had to be in weird metal carcasses of different sorts?
Marc:A lot?
Guest:A lot.
Marc:That's crazy.
Guest:And it always never fails.
Guest:It's August, July, August, summer.
Guest:And you're like, how am I in this in August in North Carolina with this much humidity?
Guest:You know, it just but then you go, oh, but I'm playing superhero.
Guest:Like how cool.
Guest:My brother used to tell me, please go put your clothes on.
Guest:I'd be like, but I have my Wonder Woman underoos on.
Guest:I do have my clothes on.
Guest:I was an annoying kid and he and his friends did Wonder Woman.
Guest:Well, I did the pilot for the TV show, and then I did some commercials, but I didn't go do Wonder Woman because I was doing Supergirl here at the time.
Marc:Oh, so you did Supergirl.
Marc:That's all right.
Marc:So you were up for the movie, Wonder Woman, and that must have been disappointing.
Yeah.
Guest:You know, it was after, especially after you see what it was, because they did an amazing job on it and such great people.
Guest:But at the time, my little boy was one, and I was on Supergirl, and I was having a blast.
Guest:And it was here.
Guest:It was here.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Melissa Benoist is so fun and lovely and kind.
Guest:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:So it was just like, I'll stay on this.
Marc:There's still time.
Marc:You could still be Superwoman, Wonder Woman.
Guest:I've worn the outfit.
Guest:It's cool.
Guest:where'd you wear the outfit when you were a kid you're under ruse well i started there but yes but i did do the um some commercials where they brought it over and they did a crossover for justice league and walmart and so i got to wear the it was so sweet i i jump in a van in the morning blonde um in sweats and i'm talking to this little girl in the van and she says oh it's my i'm asking she's like oh it's my first day on a movie i've never
Guest:She was so sweet and shy.
Guest:So now I go through the works and they have wigged me.
Guest:I'm in the full outfit.
Guest:DC cloaks you like Marvel so no one can take photos.
Guest:It's at elementary school.
Guest:We get into the cafeteria and the DP's like, can you take the cloak off?
Guest:We need a light.
Marc:Wait, they basically put a blanket over you?
Guest:Like a big hooded blanket because they don't want, as you're walking, photos taken, especially if it's a reveal of something new.
Guest:So I get in there and we do a few shots and then we stop and the little girl is sitting off at one of the tables and I go sit down next to her and I sit down and I'm like, hey.
Guest:Becky and start talking to her and um we then go to lunch and the mom the little girl has no idea that I'm the same person from the van and the little the mom comes up and all you can see now I'm recloaked is the the headband yeah and she comes up and she said I don't know how you knew my daughter's name but you just made her world and I said well why and she said well she just switched school she's been bullied at her old school and she just switched school and doesn't have any friends yet and you made her the coolest kid in there today and
Guest:And you realize like I sat with her for 30 seconds.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And you just I think in this industry we have such an impact on people.
Guest:And it's nice when you get to just do that much back for somebody.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you don't even you don't really realize it because you're just at work and you're being nice.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's in that moment because you're focused on what you're doing.
Marc:Your empathy isn't really engaged.
Marc:You don't know the back story of anyone's situation.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And then, you know, you hear something like that.
Marc:You're like, wow, well, that was easy.
Guest:Yeah, maybe I should have done that more.
Guest:You know, it does make you think about it.
Marc:So have you been scared for your life?
Guest:There's been two times that I would say I absolutely look back and am lucky.
Guest:One was I jumped a car into a lake and it has big holes in the bottom to make it fill up faster.
Guest:The pressure is supposed to equalize the doors.
Guest:You're going to open them up and get out.
Guest:It didn't quite go as planned.
Guest:And before I did the car jump, they moved my safety divers farther away.
Guest:So you see the ticking clock on the screen when I watched it.
Guest:And I would say it was about a minute, 10 seconds before I found my air.
Marc:So wait, so, okay, so you drive?
Guest:So I drive the, it's like a Jeep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I drove it off of a ramp into the water.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And the water was freezing and you couldn't see very far in front of you at all.
Guest:It was really murky.
Marc:So you have impact and you're submerged and it fills up immediately?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It probably took 10 to 15 seconds to fill up only because they added those holes.
Guest:So you see me going to the back as I'm supposed to to follow the air to the back.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then when it comes under, the pressure is supposed to equalize and you can get the doors open and get out.
Guest:Well, with the impact damage from the front, the doors wouldn't open.
Guest:So you see me in a yellow, bright yellow shirt go from door to door to door to door, window to window to window.
Guest:I can't get any of them open.
Guest:And so now the hookah line, which is the line for a scuba that has my air, was underneath me so I could find it.
Guest:Well, now it's floated all over and I can't find it.
Guest:And you're swimming blind trying to find it.
Guest:So that second of panic, you go, holy shit, I'm going to die in this car.
Guest:What am I going to do?
Guest:I'm going to die in here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's one of the few times my mom has come to set, which was probably not the smarter move.
Guest:I get out and she's like got her shoes off standing on the edge of the water.
Guest:I don't know what she thought she was going to do.
Guest:But I finally.
Marc:So you were under there and everyone on land was still videoing.
Guest:They have no clue.
Guest:There's like four cameras in the car.
Guest:And no one knew that I could.
Guest:And my safety divers, I just kept thinking they're going to come and they never came.
Marc:They didn't think there was a problem.
Guest:No, they were trying to get to me because they put them so far out.
Marc:But there was a time limit, right, where they're like, why isn't she up yet?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I guess they kept from... I didn't see this.
Guest:I guess they kept coming to the surface and then realizing I wasn't up yet, and then they would dive back down.
Guest:And so then they're having trouble seeing because they can't see either.
Guest:So I ended up in that moment of panic going...
Guest:okay, this isn't helping.
Guest:So what do I do?
Guest:And it's amazing that you can kind of take that calm for a second or two.
Guest:And I realized I knew where my tank was bolted down and my tank was bolted in the back.
Guest:So I went, swam back to the back of the car, found the tank.
Guest:Now I can find the line.
Guest:I can run the line and it was under the seat and then up in the steering wheel.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:So I would have never found it looking, but doing that, I got air.
Guest:Once I got air, found the window breaker, broke the window and got out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it just shows you doesn't always go as planned, but, and then the other time would have been, um, on fast five, um,
Guest:I was in that little NSX and Corey was turning the bus over.
Guest:And Corey is literally one of the best drivers in the business.
Guest:Corey, what's his name?
Guest:Corey Eubanks.
Guest:So we're doing near misses.
Guest:I hold my line.
Guest:He swerves around.
Guest:We've done it all day, I don't know, 10 times, different time, different cameras, different everything.
Guest:Now we're coming at each other, and there is a helicopter above behind me, and it's from their angle.
Guest:And so I don't know exactly what happened, but we're both encroaching at 35, so that's ahead on at 70, and I don't even come to his bumper.
Guest:I'm so low.
Guest:So we're coming this way, and then that half second when he's supposed to swerve, he doesn't go.
Guest:And I only have a dirt berm.
Marc:What's that mean?
Guest:There's like, there's not road there.
Guest:It's just dirt that kind of goes up at an angle on the side of a road, like in the middle of the desert.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Imagine a two lane and then it's dirt.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I'm going and you have a half second anyway.
Guest:And then in that half second goes away.
Guest:And then so it's the last, I just pulled my wheel as hard as I could to the left and ended up in the dirt and
Guest:I didn't know that the helicopter had moved into my blind spot in his lane down low.
Guest:So if he had swerved around me as planned, he would have hit the helicopter and taken the helicopter out.
Guest:So he had to make the choice in a second.
Right.
Marc:And say like, she'll be all right.
Guest:She'll get out.
Guest:She'll get out.
Guest:She'll get out.
Guest:You know, like he's like her, them, her, them.
Guest:She'll get out.
Guest:They can't.
Marc:Whose mistake was that?
Guest:To this day, I don't know.
Guest:I mean, it's not him or he or I, because we knew exactly what we were supposed to do.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And no one told you that the copter was going to be there.
Guest:Well, we knew it was there, but it wasn't supposed to come down.
Guest:So I don't know.
Marc:It might've been a call from the booth.
Yeah.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I mean, easily could have been come down around the side a little bit and he doesn't know where this was supposed to happen.
Guest:Who knows?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:It's a lot of inner workings.
Guest:But yeah, those are the two that I would say I look back and go, I was very lucky.
Guest:And, you know, other ones you show up to work and like you said, you fall over a rug and it is what it is.
Guest:But, you know, the bigger ones I feel like for the most part are the ones that.
Marc:usually go the best because you've prepped them so much right and there's a lot probably a lot more at stake yeah so what is your husband in the business he is is a stunt guy too uh-huh you're both stunt people yep do you work out together do you not very often is do you ever have like sort of can you show me this or we just work through this move with me this gag
Guest:not usually occasionally if I'm trying to think like especially on Ray Donovan if I was going through a fight I'm like hey will you just play the other side for me really quick because I want to think and I need I'm better when I have a dance partner so I know some people just create both sides on their own I prefer to work off of somebody so occasionally it's him but like he's in New Orleans right now coordinating a Hugh Jackman movie and so it just we end up both busy and you know
Marc:So coordinating is something that you graduate to that.
Marc:That's the next step.
Marc:You're a stunt person and then you're a stunt coordinator.
Guest:And a lot of times you still bounce between them.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:So I went and doubled Jen on Peppermint while we were coordinating Glow.
Guest:So it just kind of depends on what's going on.
Marc:And you won an Emmy, two Emmys for Glow.
Guest:I did.
Marc:For coordinating.
Marc:And you're the first woman to win an Emmy for stunts.
Guest:It's pretty cool.
Guest:And for such a fun show.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, to represent... I think, for me, the thing about that show is if people could just see five minutes of how hard those ladies work.
Guest:They're so focused.
Guest:They're so focused, and I get them in the ring, and I get them when they... Between Chavo and Helen and I, we get to...
Guest:play and teach and they come in and they knew nothing other than Kia of course yeah I mean it was just okay I mean the first day in the ring even this whole speech about trust and I you know I they're going to be great and but I need them to listen to their bodies and blah blah blah yeah and then Chavo goes okay so uh let's start with flipping to your back
Guest:Oh, hold on.
Guest:Let's start with how to get in the ring.
Guest:You know, it's just because you're starting from ground zero.
Guest:And now to watch them, it's they're incredible.
Marc:And also it's sort of a rare sort of situation where the actual what you're what you're doing as a stunt is actually a stunt.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That the whole nature of professional wrestling is it's a real thing, but it is to it's an illusion.
Yeah.
Guest:It's an illusion, but it's funny when they when I've done a couple interviews and they've asked me about it being fake or they've asked me about and I'm like, oh, no, when those girls hit that, you know, hit the ground, you ask them, they're going to tell you they feel it.
Guest:It's real.
Guest:And those guys, they wrestle and their bodies are tired after long.
Guest:I mean, it's hard.
Marc:Oh, definitely.
Marc:But but it's like it's not you're not trying to, you know.
Marc:create someone jumping to their death.
Marc:Correct.
Guest:It is all in the fun of it.
Guest:It's not this life or death situation where she's got to say this and get her kid and fight these guys and shoot them and jump off the building.
Guest:It's more, what is the fun story we can tell?
Guest:And let's add the glitter, add the leotards, add the hair, add the, you know, and let's just have fun.
Marc:And within the characters, there's a story, you know, like, you know, you have the story of the show, whatever episode, but in the ring, there's always a story.
Guest:Absolutely.
Marc:And that's what wrestling is.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, that's exciting.
Guest:And Chavo has really taught us a lot about that.
Guest:Helen and I are gymnasts and we're stunt women.
Guest:So we're great at breaking things down and teaching.
Guest:And we pick up wrestling quickly because that's kind of a version of our background, even though it wasn't wrestling, it was gymnastics.
Guest:Chavo...
Guest:is great at, he's been around it so long.
Marc:Chavo Guerrero is like a, is a family of wrestlers.
Guest:Third generation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he comes from the old school style of, it's not just big flare flare, big move, big move, but he wants to tell the story in the ring.
Guest:So we have a really good time playing going, okay, what's the story?
Guest:Who do you this?
Guest:She's a bad girl.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Now we need to switch it.
Guest:No, she's the heel.
Guest:No, she's the, you know, we get, we get to have a really good time with that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:And we're doing one more.
Guest:I know one more.
Marc:I have no idea what it's going to be about.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:I know all of this.
Guest:No, I don't know any.
Marc:You haven't got told anything?
Guest:No.
Marc:You have no idea where we're going to be?
Guest:I just hear more wrestling, but that's all I know.
Marc:There's going to be more wrestling this year?
Guest:That's what I hear.
Marc:We're going out with a big wrestling finish?
Guest:Big bang.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:I don't know the last episode, the first, the whole thing.
Marc:But just generally you've heard there's going to be more wrestling this season.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Huh.
Guest:But, you know, almost all of us.
Marc:Where does that leave me?
Guest:I think you're going to be in the ring, Mark.
Marc:You do?
Guest:I hope so.
Guest:Can we put that in the universe?
Marc:Yeah, I'm ready.
Marc:Yeah, that would be exciting.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think I should get in the ring once, not as a ref.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:But as a wrestler.
Guest:Let's ask.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So, are you going to direct?
Guest:I am.
Guest:I have a movie that with Wonderland, with McG's company and Voltage, that's out to cast.
Guest:Really?
Guest:An action movie, yeah.
Marc:So you're directing your first action movie?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And it's casting now?
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Who wrote it?
Guest:Corey Byum.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:So is this his first movie too?
Guest:I believe it's his first or his second.
Marc:Oh, so this is exciting.
Guest:It's very exciting.
Marc:Are you going to direct any glows?
Guest:That would be a dream.
Marc:Did you ask?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I asked, but who knows?
Guest:I mean, that'd be a dream.
Marc:But you're directing a movie.
Marc:That's exciting.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'm excited.
Marc:You've been on sets, though.
Marc:But it's so weird, though, because this is the thing I was saying before.
Marc:Like, I don't know much.
Marc:I know if you live your life on sets, whatever you're doing, if you're there all day, you're going to see how everything fucking works.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:How could you not?
Guest:Well, and we're so used to working with the cast and, you know, like I've spent so much time with with different actresses or actors that a lot of times like on Ray Donovan, you know, it becomes a you sit in and you say, hey, just so you know, this may get pushback because character wise, he really wouldn't do this.
Guest:He would probably do this.
Guest:So you're used to what those questions will be because I care about what their questions are as an actor.
Guest:Like I understand where that's coming from.
Guest:And if it makes me question it in the script, it's going to make them.
Guest:So let's make it work for everybody.
Marc:And now you're going to get to do that with emotional stuff.
Guest:Yes, I love it.
Marc:Congratulations.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I'm so glad we talked.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:I'll see you on set.
Guest:I'll see you on set.
Marc:So that's it.
Marc:Shawna Duggins, the stunt coordinator, the Emmy Award winning and SAG nominated stunt coordinator of GLOW.
Marc:Again, if you'd like to see me in concert in Cleveland or Grand Rapids, Michigan or Milwaukee or Orlando, Florida or Tampa or Portland, Maine or Providence, Rhode Island or New Haven, Connecticut or Huntington, New York.
Marc:Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for the freezing leg of the Hey There's More tour.
Marc:And that's it.
Marc:I'll play some guitar.
Marc:Kind of half-ass it right now.
Marc:And that's all.
Marc:That's all for now.
Marc:Happy New Year.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives!