Episode 1072 - Nathan Lane
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:I'm not recording at home, as you can tell by the sound quality or the sound that it's because it sounds different because I'm in Ireland.
Marc:I'm in Ireland still.
Marc:It's been an amazing trip.
Marc:We are having a great time here.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You can go see a bunch of pictures on Instagram.
Marc:If you don't follow me on Instagram, I think I'm Mark Marin, one word, at Mark Marin, I think.
Marc:Yes, I did get a little bit of a cold, but I'm not letting it stop me.
Marc:I'm not letting it hold me back.
Marc:Nathan Lane.
Marc:Nathan Lane is on my show today, and I don't even think he's here for a particular reason.
Marc:I think he was just around.
Marc:I mean, he's always doing things, but we wanted to get him for a while, and then he just decided to come by.
Marc:So that's going to happen.
Marc:Sorry about my cold, and I'm sorry about the sound quality.
Marc:It's bouncing around in this place.
Marc:It's been amazing here in Ireland.
Marc:I really feel at home here.
Marc:I don't know much about the history of the place, nor do I know...
Marc:Yeah, I don't know much about it at all, but I just feel very connected to it.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:I think it's something to do with the nature of the people and the nature of the land itself.
Marc:I started to think about it on a deeper level.
Marc:This entire island.
Marc:It's an island, right?
Marc:And it's just a tangle of roots and rocks.
Marc:The entire thing is this living organism that has lived for eons, for centuries, for thousands of years.
Marc:You can feel the life of the land beneath you in a very organic way, but it's finite and unique.
Marc:And it just, the way it engages with the atmosphere up here and the way the people are so connected to it, they seem to just be natural extensions of the actual life of the rock and moss and peat and roots and heather and stuff.
Marc:Yeah, it's all connected, man.
Marc:See?
Marc:See, that's why poetry comes from here, because there's a direct connection to the entanglements of organic matter that connect the entire world.
Marc:Slowly, it's all going away.
Marc:It will all die.
Marc:Did that not end well or did that end in an Irish way?
Marc:I would say it ended in an Irish way.
Marc:So we left Dublin, drove up to Donegal.
Marc:I don't want to pronounce it wrong.
Marc:I don't know if I'm pronouncing it wrong.
Marc:County Donegal, okay, which is pretty intense up there.
Marc:The weather was intense.
Marc:It changed every few minutes.
Marc:It was windy.
Marc:It was raining.
Marc:It was cold.
Marc:It was sunny, but always green and beautiful.
Marc:Everywhere you look here, green and beautiful and scenic.
Marc:There's like the clouds, the gray, the colors that happen when the sun comes out.
Marc:It's fucking insane.
Marc:Everywhere you look, we're driving.
Marc:We're like, oh, oh, oh, oh.
Marc:Should we pull over and do this at a rest area?
Marc:Because we shouldn't do this while we're driving.
Marc:Everything is beautiful up here, and it's fucking amazing.
Marc:But you know what else I noticed that's amazing?
Marc:No signage, no billboards, no garbage along the streets, but also no street lamps.
Marc:Makes it tricky to drive.
Marc:And I might add, I am now vehicularly ambidextrous.
Marc:I did it.
Marc:It's pretty fucking weird, man.
Marc:And I thought she was going to have to do it all because I was a coward.
Marc:And she had been here once before.
Marc:And she was like, I don't have any problem with driving on the wrong side of the road.
Marc:And I said, yeah, I could probably do it.
Marc:But in my heart, I was like, that's fucking crazy.
Marc:How do you do that?
Marc:And it took a while, but I stepped up, and I did it, and I think I mastered it.
Marc:I think I mastered it.
Marc:There is an issue when you drive on the left side of the road where you tend to want to run the car into a wall or whatever's on the left side of the road.
Marc:I don't know why that happens.
Marc:The streets are very narrow here, the highways, and you see another car coming, and you think you're right in the lane, but then all of a sudden you hear the car hitting the shrubbery or about to go off to the other side, and you think like, why the fuck is that happening?
Marc:I know these roads are just wide enough for a car.
Marc:I shouldn't be afraid.
Marc:And eventually you start to work against your instinct to drift to the left.
Marc:And you just kind of, you just hold on.
Marc:And when a car comes by you on the right, you just go, I know I'm okay.
Marc:I can see the line.
Marc:And it goes by you, but you still flinch.
Marc:But after a while, you get used to it.
Marc:And then you start to actually think, like, fuck them.
Marc:They're on the other side.
Marc:Let them move.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:That's me being an American and not very polite.
Marc:But so I can do that now.
Marc:I can drive on both sides confidently without even understanding the street signs here.
Marc:I'm sitting in a large living room almost in the ocean with a wood-burning stove.
Marc:But it's not wood-burning.
Yeah.
Marc:It's not a wood-burning stove.
Marc:I went out and bought bricks of peat, peat bricks that they dig out of the ground.
Marc:They make fuel that you burn in an oven or a stove to heat your house from the ground away.
Marc:from the living organism this is how it all feeds itself this is how it all comes together this is an island almost entirely made of rock and mulch bog roots decomposing organic matter i went out and bought like two dozen bricks of it for five dollars
Marc:And I'm burning it right now.
Marc:Peat.
Marc:It's a brown deposit resembling soil formed by the partial decomposition of vegetable matter in the wet acidic conditions of bogs and fens.
Marc:And it's often cut out and dried for use as fuel and also in gardening.
Marc:That came right from my memory.
Marc:I just remembered that.
Marc:I didn't read that from the wiki page.
Marc:Fucking spectacular cliffs.
Marc:Breathtaking cliffs to the point where I almost lost the woman I'm with over the cliff because she was so excited.
Marc:She went right to the edge of it.
Marc:testing me testing me to see if I would step out and save her from herself and I said hey what the fuck are you doing it's windy up here don't be stupid and she went okay and she wandered around like a child and then she went back out there I'm like what the fuck dude come back in
Marc:And I think that was concern, but also just the hassle of dealing with a corpse in another country is not something I wanted to deal with.
Marc:Not on my vacation.
Marc:I mean, you've got to wait there.
Marc:They've got to go get her at the bottom of the thing.
Marc:Airwifter out.
Marc:Phone calls have to be made.
Marc:And we haven't even told some of our family that we're together.
Marc:So I don't want to be in the position where I'm like, hey, I know you didn't know about us, but there's a bigger problem.
Marc:She fell off a cliff in Ireland.
Marc:And I'm sorry, but can I leave this package here?
Marc:That didn't happen.
Marc:We went to Giants Causeway, which is something I always wanted to fucking see just from the pictures.
Marc:Those goddamn octagon rocks.
Marc:Is that how many sides they have?
Marc:They're geometrically shaped.
Marc:They're octagon rocks.
Marc:And you see pictures of them.
Marc:And I'm like, where's that?
Marc:I've been saying that for fucking eight years about Ireland and about Giant's Causeway.
Marc:And we saw that, and then someone pointed out to me that's from the cover of the House of the Holy Record, which I didn't know.
Marc:Those are those rocks.
Marc:I was there, but those strange elephant children were not climbing about on the rocks.
Marc:Yesterday we did, what did we do yesterday?
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:I read the script for a movie I'm going to be in.
Marc:Yeah, it's been announced.
Marc:I'm going to be in a movie called Respect.
Marc:It's a biopic of Aretha Franklin up to a point.
Marc:And I play Jerry Wexler.
Marc:So I read that script and I studied it a bit.
Marc:Anyways, we took one day because I got a cold and it was the day to do that.
Marc:So today we went to Galway, had a lovely time, had a tour guide, friend of a friend named Colin took us around.
Marc:I'm going to hike up that mountain across the way.
Marc:I'm pointing now, folks, to a religious mountain that's right across from where I'm staying.
Marc:Tomorrow morning, whether I'm sick or not, whether it's raining or not, I'm hiking up to the top because it feels mystical to me.
Marc:I need to do it.
Marc:There's a lot of really old, old, old Christian shit here.
Marc:Like old.
Marc:I'm not thinking about, you know, I'm just saying it's bordering on primitive things.
Marc:Anyway, going to hit the Christian Mountain.
Marc:Sunday we go to Spain for the film festival, which is why we came, with Sword of Trust.
Marc:We're taking the film to Giron.
Marc:Is that how you say it?
Marc:G-I-J-O-N.
Marc:There's a film festival there.
Marc:And Sword of Trust is going to be playing there.
Marc:So we're taking the film there.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Detectives.
Marc:Can you smell the peat fire?
Marc:Can you smell the bog bricks burning?
Marc:Fucking love this country.
Marc:Nathan Lane came to my house.
Marc:Lovely man.
Marc:Extremely talented man.
Marc:All I know is that somehow he went on Twitter and he cracked the code.
Marc:It's not that hard to crack, but it's a real thing.
Marc:And I just want to say for him and for you that this was a great talk.
Marc:And you'll understand why I'm putting emphasis on that.
Marc:It's for Nathan, really.
Marc:And he's currently a recurring character on Modern Family, now in its final season on ABC after 10 years.
Marc:And he's currently shooting the Penny Dreadful spinoff series, City of Angels, which is shooting now and will air on Showtime.
Marc:But most of this...
Marc:But it's sort of like the Lily Taylor situation.
Marc:This was another chat that we've been trying to do for a long time.
Marc:He was in L.A.
Marc:and had the time on his schedule.
Marc:And he came over to talk.
Marc:And it was a great talk, Nathan.
Marc:I'm saying that to you.
Marc:I'm saying that to the people.
Marc:And I will post that on Twitter.
Marc:This is me talking to Nathan Lane.
Marc:I'm in Ireland.
Marc:This happened back in California.
Marc:Me and Nathan Wayne.
Marc:What is this, incense?
Marc:It's incense that I never burn.
Guest:I think that's a telling sign.
Guest:I'm afraid that it's going to set off the alarm.
Guest:There's a nice smell in here, and I'm surprised because you have cats.
Marc:Well, that's what people have said.
Marc:You're the second person that said that recently.
Marc:I don't understand how you can have cats, and your whole house doesn't smell like cat pee or shit.
Marc:I don't know why that is.
Marc:I'm wearing patchouli.
Marc:That might be it.
Marc:Ah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I was thinking about the 70s.
Guest:You should.
Guest:All of a sudden.
Marc:Yeah, that's what patchouli does.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Were you really, though?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:No.
Guest:Patchouli?
Guest:As I were coming down, I smelled patchouli.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So you've never been to Glendale, but you've been to Burbank.
Marc:And anonymous sex.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, not so much here.
Marc:It's not anonymous.
Marc:Glendale is not a big anonymous sex stop, I don't think.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, not yet.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Any place is, though, now with the apps.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Oh, the apps.
Guest:Can you imagine?
Guest:Now we're just two old Jews on a park bench, aren't we?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Speaking of apps.
Guest:How many do you have on the phone?
Guest:I can't work my phone.
Guest:My grandson put one on.
Guest:I don't know what it is.
Guest:I open it, I don't know what it is.
Guest:He told me I don't know.
Guest:I did a lot of research before this.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, you know, and I'm familiar with your stand-up.
Guest:I'm a fan of your stand-up.
Marc:Oh, you did research on me?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:Of course.
Marc:What'd you come up with?
Guest:So here's what I saw.
Guest:Are we recording yet?
Marc:Sure.
Okay.
Marc:We've been recording, yes.
Guest:And I noticed on your Twitter account.
Guest:I'm not doing that a lot.
Guest:But you have a picture of your guests.
Guest:Yes, I do that, yeah.
Guest:And you fill people in on who they are, what they've done.
Guest:The topics.
Guest:And then at the end it says, good talk.
Guest:Good talk.
Guest:But in some, it says great talk.
Guest:And I thought, now he's given some thought to that.
Guest:And so I thought, because I'm emotionally fragile, I'll be looking.
Guest:I'll be looking to see if I got good talk or great talk.
Guest:Now, if you gave me a great fucking talk, I would be thrilled.
Guest:I could get by for the next week.
Marc:No one has ever called me on that, but you're right in...
Guest:In assuming that there is... You know, Danny DeVito got a great talk.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:Woody Harrelson, good talk.
Guest:Good, good.
Guest:Didn't change my life.
Guest:I never cried, but it was good.
Marc:Well, I can tell you.
Marc:It was nice.
Marc:Yeah, no, it was good.
Marc:It was good.
Marc:You know, there's something.
Marc:Sometimes you connect, and I think we already did, because I don't know why.
Marc:You're just one of those people.
Marc:I knew I would connect with you immediately, because maybe, I don't know, you're needy.
Guest:You know, we're both Jersey City natives.
Guest:We were both born in Jersey City, so there's a connection.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Margaret Haig.
Guest:Margaret Haig Hospital.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was born there.
Guest:I'm a little older than you.
Marc:My father grew up there.
Marc:I was just born there.
Marc:I don't know why.
Marc:Maybe it was the only hospital he knew.
Marc:But my father went to- Wasn't it the only hospital?
Marc:There.
Marc:But I mean, I don't think- God for Margaret Haig.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I don't think that my, he wasn't living there then.
Marc:I don't know why exactly, but he grew up, he went to Snyder High School.
Marc:Oh, sure.
Marc:Does that mean anything to you?
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:So you grew up in Jersey City.
Guest:Jersey City.
Guest:And my mother was- You're full Jersey.
Guest:What they called manic depressive.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I'm full Jersey.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:She was manic depressive?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And my father was an alcoholic.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So are we done?
Marc:No.
Marc:Great talk.
Guest:This is a great talk.
Guest:You know, you have to understand, on the way here, I passed Forest Lawn and Mount Sinai Cemetery.
Guest:So I'm thinking about mortality.
Guest:I thought mortality would be the topic with you.
Guest:So it hit me as I was going by.
Marc:Well, you look great.
Guest:Well, you're very kind.
Guest:Thank you very much.
Marc:You too.
Marc:You don't seem, you seem well.
Marc:So now, okay.
Marc:Do you have brothers and sisters too?
Guest:I have two older brothers, Dan and Bob.
Marc:Are they both around?
Guest:They're both around.
Guest:So that's great.
Guest:You're doing good.
Guest:We're doing all right.
Marc:They're in their 70s.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And they're not in show business?
Guest:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Although my oldest brother, Dan, introduced me to the theater.
Guest:He took me to the theater early on.
Guest:Gave me books and took me to the theater.
Marc:Well, what was Jersey City like back then?
Marc:Because I knew there was a period, like when my father grew up there, it was a thriving, beautiful place.
Marc:And at some point, I remember he wanted to go back and visit where he grew up, and it was a fairly dangerous city.
Marc:Was it still like a nice place to have a family when you were growing up?
Guest:Yes, I think it was.
Guest:But, you know, we were poor.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What'd your dad do?
Guest:Or was he around?
Guest:Well, he was a truck driver.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Regional, local, cross-country?
Guest:Yes, cross-country.
Guest:Oh, so he's away a lot?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And then at a certain point, his eyesight started to go.
Guest:From booze?
Guest:No.
Guest:Just in general?
Guest:No, he didn't drink.
Guest:He was not a drinker at all then.
Guest:And then someone, I don't know who, got him a job as a, he was a court clerk.
Yeah.
Guest:So he had apparently what they used to tell me, well, because he had more time on his hands and he wasn't driving trucks anymore, he started drinking.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So how old were you?
Guest:Well, I was around 11 when he died.
Guest:So I was a mistake.
Guest:I was, you know, it was one of those.
Guest:My mother had me when she was 40.
Guest:A Catholic mistake?
Guest:You know, they went to a wedding, a little too much Schlitz.
Guest:And the next thing you know.
Marc:It happened.
Marc:So your dad, he passed away when you were 11.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So that's a big absence.
Marc:How'd he die?
Guest:He drank himself to death.
Guest:Oh, he did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mother, um, she had, uh, you know, for years she, she would get him into AA from time to time and he would go and then he would fall off the wagon.
Guest:And then finally, um, she left him.
Guest:She moved out and took, and we, we went to, to Clendenny Avenue.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, so that was one after she left.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then about six months, he died about six months later, and he drank himself to death.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It was very tragic and sad.
Guest:And was he totally blind?
Guest:No, but he was, you know, I was cirrhosis of the liver.
Guest:It was- So sad.
Guest:But without someone to take care of him, he just- He just went.
Guest:He just went.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you didn't end up with that?
Marc:With what?
Marc:The alcoholism.
Marc:Alcoholism.
Guest:Oh, well, I've certainly had my moments or decades.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:I mean, but no, it didn't go quite as far as alcoholism, but certainly there was a long period of drinking.
Guest:You could do it?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:So your mom, when was she diagnosed with bipolar?
Guest:Well, that was a long process.
Guest:And at first it was diagnosed as an overactive thyroid.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Then it was, you know, they just kept saying she was having a breakdown.
Guest:And this was after my her mother, my grandmother had died.
Guest:who was a big part of our family and really helped to raise me.
Guest:Grandma who?
Guest:Marianne.
Guest:Her name was Marianne.
Guest:She's solid?
Guest:Marianne Donnelly.
Guest:She's solid?
Guest:Then Marianne Finnerty.
Guest:She was solid.
Guest:She was, yes, yes, she was a great lady, and she, and I would go to her house for lunch, you know, from, I was going to Catholic school.
Guest:Yeah, was she Irish full on?
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:From Ireland kind of deal?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, yes, was she Irish?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Well, yeah, she was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did she have any?
Guest:She had the accent.
Guest:She did?
Guest:And everything.
Guest:And, you know, she was a great cook.
Guest:And so she had died.
Guest:And my mother kind of, yeah, fell apart.
Guest:And this was and she had died and then he had died.
Guest:And then that's when it started to go south.
Guest:And she died.
Guest:And her brother, who was a Jesuit priest.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:You had a priest in the family?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then he was the one everyone went to for advice, even though he was an alcoholic, too.
Guest:He was drinking a dry Rob Roy, telling everyone what to do with their lives and their marriages.
Guest:In his robe?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So she was in and out of mental hospitals.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:Young.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:You know, 11.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:12.
Guest:And then she... So you stayed with your grandma?
Guest:No, she was dead by then.
Guest:Oh, that's right.
Guest:So who was watching you?
Guest:I know.
Guest:This is starting to get Dickensian.
Guest:But my brothers were still at home at that point.
Guest:But she was in and out of hospitals.
Guest:And they would... You know, I can remember her being in...
Guest:in one place that was not, I want to say it was in Trenton State.
Guest:And it was really bad.
Marc:Were they doing like electroshock and stuff?
Guest:They didn't do that.
Guest:But she was, you know, I guess they were giving her medication and so forth.
Guest:But she would, I remember her saying to me, please get me out of here.
Guest:I'm not that bad.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Oh, it must have been just terrifying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then so she was in and out, and she was going through these different stages of manic depression where she would be paranoid or depressed, and she attempted suicide.
Guest:This is a great way to start this interview, isn't it?
Guest:Yeah, well, it's better than ending it this way.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Let's get it out of the way.
Guest:Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
Guest:Speaking of suicide.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So like how did she live long enough to get level with the medicine or what?
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Eventually.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She we were my brother Danny moved us to Rutherford.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This is after I finished high school.
Guest:thinking a change of scenery might help.
Guest:And she was in a really bad place, and she went to the local church and caused a scene.
Guest:In what way?
Guest:Well, there was a whole... This is a really... Classic story?
Guest:This is a whole other podcast.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Well, she had a thing that was... The Catholic bipolar podcast?
Guest:It was...
Guest:Think about it.
Guest:There was a priest at one time in her life and she imagined that he was around and that he was on the altar and she, you know, showed up in a nightgown and a raincoat and lit up a cigarette and walked down the aisle during like a high mass or something.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:And yelling at the priest on the altar thinking he was this priest who had at one time been in her life.
Guest:In a bad way?
Guest:I think this is going to sound like a Fanny Hurst novel, but when my father was away during World War II, she had a, I don't know whether it was a full-out affair, but she fell in love with this young priest, a guy who was studying for the priesthood.
Guest:This happens a lot, I think, to those priests.
Guest:His name was Lloyd Lacombe.
Guest:You know the name.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, because she used to talk about him.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:So she made a big scene.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And so she thought he was Lloyd Lacombe, and she was screaming at him.
Guest:And then this made the local paper, and then they took her to a hospital.
Marc:So it was a manic break kind of deal?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it was just an episode.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And she was very manic.
Guest:And finally, it was diagnosed as manic depression, and they put her on lithium.
Guest:Oh, and then that kind of knocked it down?
Guest:Well, it, you know, she leveled off.
Marc:So were things then better with you guys?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It was better.
Guest:I mean, she was always a, you know.
Guest:How long did she?
Guest:Difficult person to make happy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, that's okay.
Guest:Sound familiar?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, but not as dramatic.
Marc:I found that my parents, my dad was a bit on the bipolar side.
Marc:My mom was pretty self-absorbed.
Marc:It was never, you know, making them happy.
Marc:I just knew that it wasn't quite enough.
Marc:It wasn't like, well, actually, that's true.
Marc:With my father, like, I used to, my mother used to say to me, like, you know, would you go upstairs and make him laugh?
Marc:You're the only one who can.
Marc:Oh, oh.
Guest:So that's...
Guest:But that's pressure, too.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:It's very moving, but it's... It's horrible.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:And then I end up in comedy?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:Yes, of course.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:I end up in making people laugh and resenting them for laughing.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:No, come on.
Marc:I'm kidding.
Guest:Jesus, that's sort of... Don't you love the people?
Guest:Don't you love the audience?
Guest:No.
Guest:No, I definitely have a love-hate relationship with audiences.
Guest:Always have.
Marc:So was she able to see your success?
Marc:How old were you when she passed?
Guest:She was 84.
Guest:So she had seen a few things, yes.
Guest:Oh, that's great, right?
Guest:Yes, absolutely.
Guest:No, it was wonderful that she got to see that.
Guest:Did she think you were good then?
Guest:No.
Guest:She would always say, you know, she would say things like, it would be some big Broadway opening night and she would say, it was very cold in the theater.
Guest:But she would say, she always used to say to me, I'm not saying this because I'm your mother.
Guest:I'm saying it because it's true.
Guest:You were the best one.
Guest:You were the best one.
Marc:You were the best one.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So your brothers are like a decade older, your next oldest brother?
Marc:Is he like that much older?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I was the mistake.
Guest:Yeah, I get it.
Guest:They weren't planning that.
Marc:But you were able to at least see some way of getting older through them?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:They were grownups when you were young.
Marc:But when you were 15, your brother's 25.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, they were, you know, I think my brother Danny in particular, he was the oldest, and I think he felt a responsibility in some way to be the father figure and to look out for me, which is, I think, partly why he, for some reason, you know, it might have been this.
Guest:Whenever I was about 10 or 11, I guess, and they took me out to throw a football around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think there are many things at play on this day.
Guest:And so they're throwing me the football, and I'm catching it.
Guest:But it's not going well.
Guest:And then finally, my brother Bobby always tells me this story.
Guest:He always brings it up.
Guest:And says, and you call us over, and you very seriously handed us the football.
Guest:And you said, listen, I'm not a sportsman.
Guest:Who says that in 10?
Guest:Who says sportsman?
Guest:Unless you're like in Victorian times.
Guest:Anyway, that's what I said.
Guest:So that's what you said when you came out?
Guest:I am not.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:And it still wasn't enough.
Guest:How gay do I have to be?
Guest:They were all upset.
Guest:I was interviewed once, and I said, by that bastion of integrity, Us Magazine asked me if I was gay.
Guest:At the time, I said, I'm 40, single, and I work a lot in the musical theater.
Guest:You do the math.
Guest:What do you need?
Guest:Flashcards?
Guest:And it still wasn't enough.
Guest:They wanted the word.
Guest:So, yes.
Guest:It was my brother, Danny, who really sort of took me to theater in New York.
Marc:And when you were younger, though, were you interested in it?
Marc:Or were you doing it in high school?
Marc:Or were you just uncomfortable?
Guest:I was just uncomfortable.
Guest:No, I was a voracious reader.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I...
Guest:Because of this, being exposed to theater, I joined a play of the month club called the Fireside Theater that used to send me plays.
Guest:And I remember the first play I got was The Odd Couple by Neil Simon.
Marc:When you were in high school?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, even younger.
Guest:Even before high school, I was reading plays and books.
Marc:Like from French's?
Marc:Like the actual little play scripts?
Guest:No, this was sort of a published version.
Guest:It wasn't sort of that.
Guest:Yeah, the Samuel French stuff.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Until that came later.
Marc:And one of the first ones you remember reading was The Odd Couple?
Yeah.
Guest:The Odd Couple and Eugene O'Neill, you know, the Iceman Cometh.
Marc:So this is stuff you read when you were a kid and you ended up being in?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It was a prophecy.
Guest:Yeah, really.
Guest:Simon Gray played Butley.
Guest:Yeah, a lot of these things.
Guest:He took me, my brother Danny took me to see Alan Bates in Butley on Broadway.
Marc:It was good?
Yeah.
Guest:It was a classic Simon Gray play, and it was very funny.
Marc:I don't know enough about theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He's a British, wonderfully, I think, underappreciated British writer.
Guest:He wrote a play called Quartermain's Terms, which was a big success.
Guest:I did a play of his eventually called The Common Pursuit off Broadway.
Marc:Do you like British comedy in general?
No.
Marc:do i like british comedy in general i like uh um all kinds of comedy but i i certainly like british comedy yeah well i mean because there's right well there's just a specific tone like you know like if you do the producers you do the odd couple or you do uh uh the the forum play classically jewish written stuff
Marc:There's a pace to it.
Marc:Even when it's set in ancient Rome.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Doesn't that have that pace?
Marc:I mean, you've done two things that I think Zero Mostel started.
Marc:Yes, that's right.
Marc:Isn't that right?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there's a pace to it.
Marc:And you can do it.
Marc:You can do it as good as a Jew.
Guest:Well, that is high praise indeed.
Marc:Well, I think it must be the Jersey thing or I don't know what.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I know.
Guest:I played many Jewish characters and people because I changed my name to Nathan.
Guest:They just assumed.
Guest:They assumed that I'm Jewish.
Marc:So you had to deal with that.
Marc:Your entire theatrical career is old Jewish women coming up to you going, you're very good.
Marc:You're a real mensch.
Marc:No.
Marc:You are something.
Marc:Do you want to meet my daughter, Rachel?
Marc:Oh, sure.
Guest:I do remember a woman saying that after Guys and Dolls, saying, you were very good.
Guest:And I could tell there was something about her.
Guest:I just said, oh, yeah?
Guest:And she said, and I saw Sam Levine.
Guest:And I said, oh, I wasn't better than Sam Levine?
Guest:And she said, no, come on, that was Sam Levine.
Guest:You were very good.
Guest:That was Sam Levine.
Guest:Come on, don't get ahead of yourself.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Don't get too big for your britches.
Marc:So you're going to theater when you're a kid because your brother's taking it.
Marc:He liked the theater too?
Yes.
Guest:Apparently.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Or was he just trying to guide you somehow?
Marc:Did he say, this kid's going to be an actor?
Marc:He's got something.
Guest:I don't know, but friends of his were putting on a play in college, and he volunteered my services.
Guest:It was the first time I acted, because they were doing this play where they needed a kid to show up in the second act.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a short scene.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so he said, my brother will do it.
Guest:And he came home and told me that I would be doing this.
Guest:So I was in this play.
Guest:It was a Frank Gilroy play called Who'll Save the Plow Boy.
Guest:You were the plow boy?
Guest:No.
Guest:But I had to, you know, I was brought on and...
Guest:It was in Jersey?
Guest:This was Jersey City State College.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How'd you do?
Guest:You came on?
Guest:Well, I got some laughs.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was drunk with power.
Guest:And then I just remember they had an opening night party, but I was too young to go.
Guest:I was sent home, and I was really upset.
Yeah.
Guest:About that.
Guest:Then I couldn't go to the opening night party because I was a part of the cast.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:I was very indignant.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Nine, ten.
Guest:Why can't I?
Guest:I have no idea.
Guest:Party with the adults.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:But so do you think that's where you sort of got the bug to do it?
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also reading about, you know, I was fascinated by the Algonquin Roundtable.
Guest:You know, witty alcoholics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In New York.
Guest:Yeah, in New York.
Guest:Yeah, just across the river.
Guest:It seems so exotic.
Marc:That must have been wild to be in Jersey City and know that it was just over there.
Guest:So close and yet so far.
Marc:Right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you ever think about that?
Marc:Like you only made it across the river.
Guest:And then when I would go to New York, go to see plays in New York as a kid, I would think I could never live here.
Guest:It's terrifying.
Marc:So you leave Jersey City.
Marc:How do you start acting?
Guest:You know, I did plays in high school.
Guest:And then I was going to go to St.
Guest:Joseph's College in Philadelphia.
Guest:Catholic College?
Guest:We had no money.
Guest:So I got a drama scholarship.
Guest:And my brother, Danny, drove me there.
Guest:And I was, you know, I had a government loan and a student loan.
Guest:And then they told me that I owed them more money and I was going to have to take out another loan or something.
Guest:And this was very upsetting to me.
Guest:And my brother said, well, look, you know, if you're that upset, he said you could take a year and work and make money.
Guest:And you don't have to go to college right now.
Guest:And I don't think he was expecting me to say that.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's what I did.
Guest:I said, okay, I'm not going to go.
Guest:We went back and got the bags out of the room and I went back to Jersey City.
Guest:And again, whoever, somebody, somewhere, someone got me a job as a, I was a bail interviewer.
Guest:Anyone who was arrested in Jersey City was brought to me and I would have to fill out the paperwork for the court clerk to see if they, he would determine whether they'd be released on their own recognizance.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I did this for about three weeks.
Guest:But that was the job?
Guest:That was the job.
Guest:Who got you that job?
Guest:I was a bail interviewer at the 7th Precinct in Jersey City.
Guest:What, did they remember your dad or something?
Guest:I don't know, but it was, I don't even remember how this came about, but yes, people would be brought in screaming and covered in blood, and I'd be saying, do you own any real estate?
Wow.
Guest:It was terrible.
Guest:Must have been scary.
Guest:A little scary.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Three weeks you lasted.
Guest:I lasted three weeks.
Guest:And then I had worked with a theater company called the Halfpenny Playhouse.
Guest:Where's that?
Guest:It was a theater in residence at Uppsala College in East Orange, New Jersey.
Guest:And they had a little theater there.
Guest:And I had done some shows with them.
Guest:Was it like a radical theater?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Not at all.
Guest:No.
Guest:It wasn't like the late 60s.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:Cafe La Mama.
Guest:This was this was they were doing musicals and plays.
Guest:Did you do a lot of musicals then?
Guest:I did a few musicals and then they were doing a musical review about the history of New Jersey and.
Guest:Called Jerz, J-E-R-Z.
Guest:In fact, we wore gold sweatshirts that had said J-E-R-Z.
Marc:You need to do a production of this now.
Marc:You need to revive this.
Marc:Nathan, let's revive Jerz.
Guest:It was going to tour schools because the bicentennial was coming up.
Marc:Yeah, 76.
Guest:Yeah, this was in 76.
Guest:So they were booked, and that was sort of the beginning.
Guest:So I left the 7th Precinct, and I started this musical review.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Musical review.
Guest:I did it for quite a while.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I did a lot of things for that.
Guest:I did a musical about, for a minute, it seemed like we were going to go metric.
Guest:We did a musical review called One for Good Measure.
Guest:That's how I got my equity card.
Guest:That's how I got my union card.
Guest:Were you doing this for kids?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So jurors wasn't for the grown-up audience.
Guest:Can you imagine the two-drink minimum?
Guest:Yeah, with one.
Guest:One for good measure?
Yeah.
Guest:So you're trying to teach people the metric system?
Guest:The metric system, ladies and gentlemen.
Marc:And that's how you got your equity card?
Guest:That was how I got my equity card, yes.
Marc:Oh, these were, what great days.
Guest:Not really.
Guest:No.
Guest:But it's the beginnings.
Guest:So you didn't have any acting training?
Guest:I know for a long time I didn't then I took I went to the Stella Adler studio so wait okay so you moved to New York after one for good measure you're like I'm on yes I'm arising yes I had gotten yes I was living in New York by then I oh yes where midtown
Guest:No, the Upper West Side.
Guest:But then I was in the union, but then it was difficult to get a job.
Guest:I was a struggling New York actor.
Marc:How do you join the union?
Marc:Do you just join?
Marc:Do you just pay your dues and you're in?
Guest:Well, the musical about the metric system was an equity show.
Guest:An equity contract.
Marc:It's like Taff Hartley kind of?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You do an equity show, then you've got to pay your dues.
Marc:I love a good Taft-Hartley reference.
Marc:I don't even know what it means, but I know that's what it means.
Marc:Like, you do a movie.
Marc:If you're not a union member, then they Taft-Hartley you, whatever that means.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you get the first one for free, and then you've got to pay the dues.
Guest:It depends what neighborhood you're in.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Certainly around here.
Marc:I'm going to Taft-Hartley you.
Marc:That happens a lot around here.
Marc:There's a lot of that going on around here, Nathan.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you're in the union.
Marc:You're not.
Guest:Yeah, I got in the union.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And so I would I did a lot of struggling actor jobs, selling things by phone and doing Harris poll surveys and singing telegrams.
Marc:But you did go to Stella Adler and do the thing.
Guest:I went.
Guest:I took a summer.
Guest:I thought I should sort of learn what this is all about.
Guest:So I took three courses at a summer session.
Guest:And what did you have under your belt?
Marc:You had one for good measure under your belt?
Guest:Well, I had done lots of dinner theater and summer stock.
Marc:Oh, so you did those gigs.
Marc:Were you regional?
Marc:Like you go out for a month or two upstate New York?
Guest:You do eight shows in eight weeks over the summer.
Guest:Yeah, I did all of that.
Marc:Like where?
Marc:Like in Ohio and all that shit?
Guest:In Chatham, New York at a theater called the Mack Hayden, which was in a barn, literally a barn that they cleaned out.
Marc:But this was like the way a lot of people got started.
Marc:I just talked to somebody else that got started like this doing a John Goodman.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like did that kind of theater in Ohio.
Guest:I worked with John Goodman at Equity Library Theater in 1977, 78.
Guest:We did Midsummer Night's Dream together.
Guest:You've done a lot of plays with him, haven't you?
Guest:I have done a lot of plays with him.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I just talked to him last week.
Guest:He's the greatest guy.
Guest:He's doing pretty good.
Guest:He's doing very well.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, wonderful and brilliant actor.
Marc:It's fun to work with him?
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's the nicest.
Guest:He's such a sweetheart.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And he's so, you know, he's very hard on himself.
Guest:I know.
Guest:But he's a brilliant, brilliant actor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We've done, yeah, we did Waiting for Gatto.
Guest:We did The Front Page together.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was based on the movie?
Guest:Based on the movie?
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:What the, now I know why they call it what the fuck.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:Wait, the movie was based on the play.
Guest:Based on the movie.
Guest:Okay, okay.
Guest:No, it's Ben Heck, Charles MacArthur.
Guest:It was a play from 1928.
Guest:Got it.
Guest:Yes, there were a few movie versions.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:I'm just dumb.
Guest:Wasn't that the one?
Marc:You're not dumb.
Marc:The one that, didn't Woody Allen act in the front page?
Marc:No.
Marc:What am I thinking of?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:It was a blacklisted director who directed it.
Guest:Oh, he did a great movie called The Front.
Guest:Oh, The Front.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:Close.
Guest:Not a bad mistake to make.
Guest:Wasn't it Martin Ritt directed it?
Guest:Walter.
Guest:And Zero Mostel was in it.
Guest:Zero Mostel, a great performance.
Guest:I love that movie.
Marc:So you're doing all this summer stock and you're doing the dinner theater things.
Marc:You're working with John Goodman.
Marc:You're both young.
Marc:Were you drinking at that place he used to drink?
Marc:What place is that?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:He said there was a couple of bars he went to with other actors would hang out.
Marc:I think we went to different kinds of bars, but yeah.
Marc:We were both drinking heavily.
Marc:Let's put it that way.
Marc:How was that life in the 70s?
Marc:What?
Marc:The other life.
Marc:The gay life in the 70s?
Guest:It's fun, right?
Guest:I was just talking about this the other day.
Guest:It was called the long hello.
Guest:We could stand here and chat, but why don't we go home and fuck instead?
Guest:It seemed like a good idea at the time.
Guest:Enough of this talking.
Guest:What's your name?
Guest:Enough of this chit-chat.
Guest:Well, that's when men are left to their own devices.
Guest:That's what they do.
Guest:That's what they do.
Marc:You know, if everyone's on the same page and you understand what's going on, why not have a good time with three to four people a night or at the same time?
Marc:Why not?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I did it all.
Guest:I did it all.
Guest:And you made it through.
Guest:It's unbelievable that I survived.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, it's certainly a different New York now, isn't it?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Marc:Well, it's... Well, I mean, obviously, not just that part of it, but all of it.
Guest:Well, now, you walk through Times Square, and it's a mall.
Guest:It is a mall.
Marc:But do you ever get the feeling, though, sometimes where...
Marc:It is a mall, but the spectacle of lights, I think, is exactly what it was supposed to be.
Marc:I think that before the 70s, whatever it was supposed to be initially in terms of going to Times Square, it definitely was some equivalent to what it is now, I think.
Right.
Marc:you don't you miss just a little the dirt and the filth the seediness sure the porn yeah sure i remember i saw i remember when i was in college i went into a live sex show in times square yeah where you walk in you go into a booth you put a token in a window comes up and there are two people fucking on a rotating table right you feel awkward i was up for that
Guest:Yeah, I could never pass the physical.
Guest:Yeah, wow.
Guest:Well, sure.
Guest:No, no, look, certainly it's better.
Guest:It's better.
Guest:It's just overcrowded and it's annoying having to make your way through all of that.
Marc:I think sort of romanticized seediness has been eradicated from all parts of the culture, really.
Marc:That's depressing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But do you know what I'm saying?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't think I ever really thought of it.
Guest:We're going to clean everything up.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And there was a time like in the 70s, even like, you know, all culture was just about.
Guest:Well, it goes back to the Mayor LaGuardia wanted to clean up New York before the World's Fair.
Guest:So he got rid of all the burlesque houses.
Marc:Yeah, I guess so.
Marc:But like now it's just moved indoors.
Marc:Now it's like because porn is so available, you know, like you don't get to see it out in the world anymore.
Marc:But just do it at home.
Yeah.
Guest:People don't have to leave their house now.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Now you sound like Martin Scorsese.
Guest:People aren't going out to the theaters anymore.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:They want to watch it on Netflix.
Guest:They can have their drugs delivered.
Marc:They've got porn in the house.
Guest:Really?
Guest:You never have to leave the house.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Back then, you could see the weirdos going out and doing what they had to do to get what they needed.
Marc:Not as much anymore.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what was the first big show where you were like, I'm doing it.
Marc:This is it.
Marc:I'm a Broadway actor.
Guest:Oh, man.
Guest:I had done a television series, a short-lived television series with Dana Carvey and Mickey Rooney called One of the Boys for NBC.
Guest:We did 13 glorious episodes.
Marc:Mickey Rooney, an old Mickey Rooney.
Guest:How was that?
Guest:Oh, again, another podcast.
Guest:It would take too long.
Guest:But he was... Difficult?
Guest:No, not with me.
Guest:He liked me.
Guest:He thought I was old school.
Guest:I don't think he understood Dana.
Guest:Dana was very funny, obviously.
Guest:Even then, he was hilarious.
Guest:Mickey didn't understand.
Guest:And it used to annoy Dana because I think Mickey thought he was gay.
Guest:And Dana would say to me, why do you tell him you're gay?
Guest:And I would say, well, why?
Guest:What am I going to do to this old MGM star and ruin his day by telling him something like that?
Guest:It's only going to be 13 episodes.
Guest:And he likes me.
Guest:And he likes me.
Guest:I don't want to upset him.
Guest:But, no, he was, I remember that we had to shoot a 15-minute presentation pilot for the network to see if there was, I guess, chemistry amongst the three of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, he was riding high because of Sugar Babies and the Black Stallion.
Guest:And so his career had turned around because of this.
Guest:And he thought in his spare time during the day, I'll film a television show for NBC.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was not a good show.
Guest:It wasn't a good fit.
Guest:It was a show they had developed for Jack Albertson, but he died.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Mickey's number one.
Guest:You know, he was alive.
Marc:Next at bat.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So we were going to shoot this presentation, and we're in a room alone waiting, and they're bringing in an audience.
Guest:And, you know, we didn't know him very well.
Guest:We just knew it was Mickey Rooney.
Guest:And that he's tiny.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:We're sitting in this room, and he turns to me and Dana, and he says, let me tell you something, fellas.
Guest:This show is going to be the most successful show in the history of television.
Guest:You know, Dana and I are looking at each other like, we'll be lucky if we do all 13 with this hokey premise.
Guest:And we're going to be rich.
Guest:I'm telling you, we're going to be rich.
Guest:You hear me?
Guest:Do you hear what I'm saying?
Guest:And we're going to be so successful that eventually we'll put together a stage version of the TV show and we'll tour with it and we'll make even more money.
Guest:Because let me tell you something, fellas.
Guest:Ike and Tina Turner made $8 zillion last year, but Judy Garland died a pauper.
Guest:So Dana and I are now backed against a wall in terror, and they come in.
Guest:They say, Mr. Rooney, we'll be ready for you in five minutes.
Guest:Oh, great.
Guest:Thanks a lot.
Guest:And it was just sort of him revving himself up for the show, not realizing.
Guest:We're thinking, you know, please call security.
Marc:That was him, huh?
Guest:So that was the beginning.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was also born again.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:Did he stay that way?
Guest:Did he stay that way?
Guest:Born again.
Guest:He was born again.
Guest:So he would talk about, you know, he was visited by an angel.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But meanwhile, he'd be on the phone, you know.
Guest:Yelling?
Guest:You know, he was always at the racetrack.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Making bets.
Guest:He was hilarious.
Marc:Oh, what a character.
Guest:Yes.
Yes.
Marc:So how did that get you to the theater?
Marc:How did that get you to Broadway?
Guest:I had come out here.
Guest:This was in 1980.
Guest:So you were in New York for a couple years and you moved here?
Guest:I was a struggling actor, but this part we skipped over, which was that...
Guest:I was in the world of stand-up comedy because I had done a show with another actor named Patrick Stack, and people liked us together, thought we were funny together.
Marc:You'd done a play?
Guest:We'd done a musical review together.
Guest:You did a lot of those.
Guest:I did a lot of stuff.
Guest:So we eventually, we wrote for some people and then we put an act together.
Guest:And then, you know, we're in clubs.
Guest:In New York.
Guest:And we were signed by an agent at William Morris.
Guest:And in 1980, we came here to L.A.
Marc:You're doing stand-up at like Catch a Rising Star and stuff?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:at the Improv and a couple of other... The old Improv.
Guest:The old Improv.
Guest:On 44th.
Guest:Yeah, and the next thing you know, we're here in L.A.
Guest:I'm at the back of the Comedy Store and David Letterman is on stage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Neither one of us, we were actors, neither one of us were thinking stand-up comedy was the goal, but we thought it might lead to something and we were doing sketch material.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so...
Guest:I mean, I have the utmost respect for stand-up comedians, but I never thought of myself as a stand-up.
Guest:Didn't you produce Birbiglia show?
Guest:I presented Mike Birbiglia.
Guest:Oh, that's different.
Guest:Well, no, money didn't change hands.
Guest:I you know, he asked me we had become friends.
Guest:And when he was putting the show together and and they were going to debut off Broadway and he he was talking about another one person show that was being presented by Meryl Streep.
Guest:And he he was annoyed.
Guest:How did she get Meryl Streep to present her?
Guest:So and then he looked at me and he said, would you present me?
Guest:And I said, sure, I'll present you.
Guest:I said, do I have to write a check?
Guest:And he said, no.
Guest:I said, I'll definitely present you.
Guest:I'll present the hell out of you.
Guest:So suddenly it said, I said, if you think it'll help.
Guest:And he said, well, in terms of the theater, yes.
Guest:So it would say Nathan Lane presents Mike Perbiglia in Sleepwalk With Me, which is the first time that I saw you as an actor.
Guest:In the movie, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, because I thought you were so terrific in this little scene.
Guest:Oh, thank you very much.
Guest:I know you were playing a world-weary comedian.
Guest:I know it was in your wheelhouse, but I thought, oh, he's a real actor.
Marc:Well, thank you very much.
Guest:Because you were not only authentic and believable, but it was also very funny.
Marc:Well, I appreciate that.
Guest:That was the first time I saw you as an actor.
Marc:Well, thank you.
Marc:It was one of the first times I did it, I think.
Marc:Is that right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, yeah, I haven't done that much.
Marc:It was before I did anything.
Marc:It was before I did my show or Glow or anything.
Marc:So, yeah, it was only the second or third time I'd been on screen in that capacity.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It was nice of Mike to ask me.
Guest:Well, it was a really great little scene.
Marc:I had no idea you were presenting me.
Guest:Not the movie.
Guest:I thought you presented the last one.
Guest:I only presented Sleepwalk with me.
Marc:Oh, why didn't you present this one?
Guest:He didn't ask me.
Guest:That's weird.
Guest:No.
Marc:Did he ask somebody else?
Guest:No, he's got big time producers now.
Guest:He doesn't need me anymore.
Guest:He's a big head.
Marc:Can we get back to this?
Marc:Because now I'm curious.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:What?
Marc:Do you feel like, is it over?
Marc:No, not at all.
Marc:Are you kidding?
Marc:I hope you're my new best friend.
Marc:Yeah, you can stay here at the house if you want.
Marc:So you're out doing stand-up.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And this leads to what?
Guest:Well, so we come out here and we made a debut at the comedy store.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And then we did the Merv Griffin show.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And Merv said, oh, they just blew the roof off the comedy store.
Guest:Then we went out and tanked.
Guest:I mean, tanked.
Guest:Tanked on Merv?
Guest:Well, just before Elky Summer was discussing her artwork, that was the warm-up.
Guest:So the audience wasn't quite ready for...
Guest:The hijinks of Stack and Lane.
Guest:But, you know, and then we opened for Rock Axe, Eddie Rabbit and Petaluma.
Guest:You did that.
Guest:We opened for Al Jarreau.
Guest:Oh, nice.
Guest:In Tempe, Arizona.
Marc:You were doing those, what, 15, 20-minute spots?
Marc:That's right.
Guest:Ahead of the Rock Axe.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:The worst gig in the world.
Guest:And they don't bill you.
Guest:You know, they just, before Eddie Rabbit, here's the comedy stylings of Stack and Lane.
Guest:People start booing.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Throwing things.
Guest:It was Petaluma.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:You know, the home of the wrist wrestling championships.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:And there was a sea of cowboy hats.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, they'd all time their drugs for Eddie Rabbit.
Guest:And now these two clowns come out.
Guest:And they literally were yelling and screaming through the whole act.
Guest:And then the local DJ who was sort of emceeing or hosting this concert came out and yelled at them, scolded them.
Guest:These two guys came all the way from New York fucking city and you better shut up and listen to them.
Guest:He went off and there was dead silence for the rest of the act.
Guest:We were suicidal.
Marc:So did you like at that point where you like this is not the career for me?
Guest:We did our act once in the Westwood Comedy Store and I remember in the middle of a sketch, a guy came up and said to me from the audience, he was drunk and he said, if you don't stop this, I'm going to kill you.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Nobody.
Guest:That was the time of, you know.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Drug humor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, it was not, you know, people didn't want to hear.
Guest:And now we take you to a bar somewhere in Manhattan.
Guest:They didn't want to see a fucking sketch.
Guest:They wanted Quailu jokes.
Guest:If you don't stop this, I'm going to kill you.
Guest:If you don't stop this, I'm going to kill you.
Guest:And he was the owner of the club, ladies and gentlemen.
Guest:So, yes, I did that for like a year or so and then got this audition for the Mickey Rooney sitcom, but it was shooting in New York City, and that's what got me back here.
Guest:And then after that, I did my first Broadway show, which was a revival, speaking of British comedy, of Noel Coward's present laughter starring George C. Scott.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:Who directed and starring George C. Scott.
Guest:He directed it?
Guest:That was my Broadway debut, and that was maybe a moment where I thought, oh, I remember he was, it was the opening night, and we were in the Circle in the Square Theater on Broadway, and they're surrounding you.
Guest:Yeah, I know that.
Guest:I've been there, yeah.
Guest:And he was letting loose this tirade against my character.
Guest:He was the Noel Coward character, and...
Guest:And he's reading me the riot act.
Guest:And out of the corner of my eye, I could see Tony Randall sitting across watching us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he looked delighted by the scene.
Guest:And I was like, man, I think I really made it.
Guest:George C. Scott is.
Guest:Ripping me a new asshole and Tony Randall is watching it happen.
Guest:Baby.
Guest:This is it.
Guest:This is it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:What was George C. Scott like, man?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was a complicated, tortured soul who, if you read anything about him, but he was very kind to me.
Guest:Very, very kind.
Marc:And he was sort of like, that's 82, so he's coming into the later part of the life.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And it was a surprise that he was playing this part and doing Noel Coward.
Guest:He was a brilliantly funny actor in comedy.
Guest:And...
Guest:You know, he was... Obviously, look, you know, he was many different things.
Guest:But he loved me, and he was very fatherly and kind to me.
Guest:And this was a huge opportunity.
Guest:And, you know, it was a great part.
Guest:But, you know, I remember when we did the very first read-through.
Guest:This is a different time, you must realize.
Guest:We did a first read-through of the play, and we finished.
Guest:And he said out loud to somebody...
Guest:You know what I like about this cast?
Guest:No fags.
Guest:So I look at this older character actor who I know is gay and I'm thinking, should we tell him?
Guest:No.
Guest:Again, like Mickey Rooney, I don't want to ruin his day.
Guest:And then Dana Ivey, the actress who was sitting next to me, leaned over and said, I'm sure he meant that in a nice way.
Marc:There's the codependency of the theater community.
Guest:But then he couldn't... And this was... May I say again, it was a play by Noel Coward.
Guest:And he said this.
Guest:But then he was incredibly generous and sweet to me.
Guest:And to be on stage with him, for all of his...
Guest:false offstage he was electric on stage he was one of the great great stage actors and and so it was a joy to work with him it's a great baptism into Broadway certainly yes and you know and then I worked with him again nine years later we did a play called On Borrowed Time and how was he holding up all right
Guest:Not so good.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Not so good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, we did this.
Marc:He was like boozy all the way through, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, he said in some interview with the New York Times when we were doing the play, he said, I'm a functioning alcoholic.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So.
Marc:But you must have that experience a lot throughout your career where you're working with because I've never talked to somebody who is essentially a, you know, probably the most successful Broadway actor working.
Marc:I mean, you've done amazing shows and you've constantly kept working on Broadway.
Marc:I don't I know people that have done stage, but you are a stage guy.
Marc:And is that something that you're happy with?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, I have, you know, I've done other things.
Guest:No, of course.
Guest:I've seen you in a lot of things.
Guest:As time has gone on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I've tried to change what is sort of, there was sort of a perception about me by doing more serious things.
Marc:Well, I think, like, I'm just seeing you now.
Marc:When you walked up, I'm like, that's not the same Nathan Lay and I grew to know.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like I felt that you were different.
Marc:So the change worked.
Marc:Oh, did it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe it's just Glendale.
Guest:No.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I act a little different in Glendale.
Guest:But, you know, theater is not a stepping stone.
Guest:It is, you know.
Marc:You never thought of it that way.
Guest:It's the greatest.
Guest:Right.
Guest:For me, it's not only home.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But it's the greatest venue for an actor because you're in control.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No one is yelling cut and no one is editing your performance.
Guest:You go from the beginning to the end.
Guest:And in the theater, I've been allowed to do things that I've never been allowed to do in film or television.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:Whether it's Roy Cohn in Angels in America.
Guest:You just did that, right?
Guest:You know, a couple of years ago, yeah.
Marc:I don't think early on, when you sort of showed up on everybody's radar, I don't know if it was... I think it was before the... I mean, when was... The producers was... It was probably the birdcage, don't you think?
Marc:Sure, yes.
Guest:Where everybody's sort of like... The Lion King.
Guest:The original Lion King.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But yes.
Guest:But as a... But the birdcage, absolutely.
Marc:And that kind of... That was an interesting timing for it.
Marc:That was sort of an important bit of business, the movie.
Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, look, I had I remembered it when I saw it on the Upper East Side, when the French film.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and and thinking this is it's so brilliant because it's so subversive.
Guest:And, you know, the straight people are the villains and the gay people are the heroes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and just loved it.
Guest:And Mike Nichols and Elaine May had always wanted to do it.
Guest:And so it was sort of a reunion for them.
Guest:Look, it has had an effect.
Guest:It did have an effect on people and it was positive for the most part.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's a very mainstream.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And in many ways, it's much less subversive than the French film.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:But because I think Mike wanted a commercial success.
Yeah.
Marc:But also, like, to create, you know, sympathetic characters for a judgmental middle America was a big deal.
Guest:Yeah, and so when you, so you, I mean, the scene on the bench when he's run away from home and Robin shows up and says, here, we're going to sign this thing, this palimony agreement that you want.
Guest:In a sense, he's saying, my life is yours and your life is mine.
Guest:It was like a little marriage ceremony.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And that to me is always the most, is my favorite scene in the film.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also because it's Robin and it just brings back so many fond memories.
Marc:That must have been so fun, you two working together.
Guest:Well, he was just, you know, such a wonderful actor and a comic genius and incredibly generous and kind.
Guest:And, you know, could have easily, originally it was supposed to be...
Guest:Steve Martin was supposed to play the part that Robin played.
Guest:I can't imagine.
Guest:Robin was supposed to play the part I played.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:And then Steve couldn't get out of something and he couldn't do it.
Guest:And then Robin decided he had done Mrs. Doubtfire and didn't want to be in a dress again.
Guest:And he wanted to play the other part.
Guest:And then somehow Mike Nichols thought of me.
Guest:But someone in his Robin's position, you would think would have said, you know, you have to get another movie star.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You were going out on a limb.
Guest:You want some insurance in that way.
Guest:And so the fact that he was so generous and, you know, it was just one of the great experiences and sort of and certainly a life changing one in terms of career and.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's so funny because I was just sort of looking at the credits a little bit and I saw Iron Weed and I'm like, what was he?
Marc:And I'm like, he was one of the ghosts, right?
Guest:Yes, that's right.
Guest:Because I remember your face.
Guest:Jack Nicholson threw a rock at my head.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Killed me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Then I had to appear as a ghost with a rock sticking out of my head.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But I remember your face.
Marc:I actually was, and I have my memory so shitty and I'm talking to my producer and I said, he was in Iron Weed?
Marc:And he's like, I don't remember what...
Marc:And I'm like, oh, my God, he was the ghost, because I can see you in that part.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:Isn't that weird?
Guest:That is weird.
Marc:Because I can't remember a lot of things, but I could remember you in that.
Marc:Well, thank you.
Guest:Great work.
Marc:You really just held the screen there with rock in your head.
Guest:Yeah, it's not easy.
Guest:It's probably a better movie than I think it is, than I remember it being.
Guest:No, it's not a good movie.
Guest:It's not a good movie because that book, it's all in his head.
Guest:So it doesn't really work so much as a film.
Guest:The book is great.
Guest:Yeah, the book is great, the William Kennedy book.
Guest:They're really good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's really, Meryl Streep's performance is rather remarkable in that.
Guest:Oh, that's so sad.
Guest:I was there that day when she did that thing.
Guest:In the car?
Guest:In the club where she gets up and sings.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And you see how it's going in her head and she's singing well and then it cuts back and you see.
Guest:It's just embarrassing, horrible.
Guest:And it was just heartbreaking.
Marc:So it's interesting to me that like you do have a lot of range and like you just did.
Marc:Well, I want to talk about Angels, but you also did F. Lee Bailey and the people versus O.J.
Marc:Yeah, which was great.
Marc:I mean, but that no one sees you like that.
Guest:No.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, that's.
Marc:But is that a challenge for you?
Marc:Do you say like this is going to be difficult for me and I want to raise to rise to the occasion?
Marc:Here's what happened.
Guest:I was doing a musical called The Addams Family.
Guest:A musical review?
Guest:No, not a musical review.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:This was a full-blown musical called The Addams Family.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And it was reviled by the critics.
Guest:But the audience wanted to see it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was in it for a year.
Guest:And at one point, Charles Isherwood, who was still then at the New York Times, wrote a piece about me, sort of a...
Guest:about sort of my whole career yeah and it was a very very flattering complimentary piece yeah um basically said i was the last of the great entertainers that's how he put it not that he's not a good actor but this is the whatever he's whatever it is he's been doing for these last 30 years it was very nice and and i was very flattered but there was a part of me that said
Guest:You know, Peggy Lee, is that all there is?
Guest:Is that what you think all that that's all I am is just an entertainer?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I felt like I have more to offer.
Guest:And I was also feeling at that point in my life, you know, at a bit of a crossroads.
Guest:Yeah, I could just I could just do this.
Guest:I just entertain people.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:For the rest of my life and do things that are safe on Broadway.
Marc:This is not that long ago you're talking about.
Guest:This is in 2010, 2009, 2010.
Guest:And so I said, I wonder if I can change people's perception.
Guest:And so I went off and I did the Iceman Cometh in Chicago with Bob Falls, the director, and Brian Dennehy is an old friend of mine, played.
Guest:Is he still around?
Guest:Larry Slade.
Guest:Yes, he is.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:He's 80 years old.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:And he's available.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I remember when he did.
Marc:I didn't see that production.
Marc:It must have been pretty weighty.
Marc:I mean, he's like heavy, man.
Marc:Denny's heavy.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Actor.
Guest:Great.
Guest:And he had played Hickey years before in 1990.
Guest:And so he was playing this other character.
Marc:He played the character you played?
Guest:And I played Hickey.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The part Robards played way back.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That sort of established his career.
Guest:It's a it's a it's like a it's one of those mountains you climb.
Guest:It's like a three hour thing.
Guest:Right.
Guest:No.
Guest:It's like a five hour.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it's what separates the men from the boys.
Guest:And so I went to Chicago and I did this play.
Guest:And yeah, and it's one of the ultimate challenges, this part.
Guest:And I wanted to be scared and I wanted that experience.
Guest:And it was the best thing I could have done for myself as an actor.
Marc:Now, how do you prepare for something like that, given that you're one of the great entertainers?
Guest:What is the process for you?
Guest:I had a long period before of knowing when I was going to do it, so not only doing research about the play and other productions.
Guest:Um, you know, because the first thing you have to do is shake off the ghost of Jason Robards.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And cause you, you can see him in a, there's a video of the 1960 television production that Sidney Lumet did.
Guest:So you can actually see him do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So if you've ever seen him do it, it's hard to get that out of your head.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And then, um, I worked for the first time I worked with a coach, a great coach called Larry Moss.
Guest:Cause I, I just couldn't, uh, you, you, I needed to talk to someone about it because it's so complex.
Um,
Marc:And what is that?
Marc:What is that?
Marc:What's that experience with a coach?
Marc:What do they tell you?
Guest:Well, it's first you're asking, you know, Larry Moss is he's a brilliant acting coach, but it's it's about text analysis.
Guest:And then it's also he's you know, he's part psychotherapist and cheerleader and and also specifically, you know, discussing.
Guest:Things about the character and where it has to go and helping you get there and find it and your version of it.
Guest:And so that was tremendously helpful.
Guest:And also it was sort of like it had been a long time since I'd been in that position with working with a coach and discussing it that way.
Marc:And going to a different party, your emotional thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, certainly I had done plays over the years, the plays of Terrence McNally or John Robin Bates and so forth, plays that have humor, but they're serious roles.
Guest:But this was like taking on Lear or something.
Guest:It's a very demanding part.
Guest:When I was doing Angels and Denzel Washington was doing it on Broadway...
Guest:playing hickey yeah and he came up to me and he was very sweet and he said uh he just looked at me and he said you know what i'm going through don't you and i said i sure do it was it was so sweet uh because you're it's part of you're part of a small group of men who have played that part um because it's there's nothing you'll never be asked and once you've done that everything else seems easy wow
Guest:um and and then we did it again at brooklyn academy of music so it was it it was the beginning of slightly changing people's perception about me because basically i said oh you think i'm that i'm gonna go over here i'm gonna do this right and then enough enough things fortunately came my way like the the two seasons on the good wife and you know f lee bailey people versus oj
Guest:And then and stuff like that, a play called The Nance and other things that I think eventually led to doing Roy Cohn and Angels in America.
Guest:We did it at the National Theater in London and then brought it to Broadway.
Guest:So by then it was I had.
Guest:And it's a difficult thing to do because people want you to stay.
Guest:I was reading an interview with you where you say people want you to stay in the box, whatever box that is.
Marc:They see you cranky underdog box.
Guest:So, for example, the reason I'm in L.A.
Guest:is because I'm doing this new iteration of Penny Dreadful.
Guest:It's called City of Angels.
Guest:John Logan, great writer, creator of this show, wrote this part for me.
Guest:He sent me the script out of the blue and said, I wrote this for you.
Guest:And I'm playing this grizzled old Jewish LAPD detective who's investigating a murder and also investigating the Nazi infiltration of L.A.
Guest:It takes place in 1938.
Guest:This is a miniseries?
Guest:This is a series, a 10-episode series.
Guest:Right, for?
Guest:Showtime.
Guest:So he wrote this tremendous part of emotional complexity and darkness.
Guest:And I was like...
Guest:No one in Hollywood would ever have given me this point.
Guest:And I said to him, why me?
Guest:I was very grateful, but I said, I'm curious.
Guest:And he said, well, I saw you in The Iceman Cometh, and I saw you in Angels in America, and I thought it was time you did something like this on television.
Guest:So, you know, I feel very, very grateful and lucky and it's been thrilling.
Marc:Well, that's great, you know, because like I'm thinking about it as you're telling me, you know, as an actor, as someone who's known as a stage actor, which is a good thing, you know, for you to sort of like, you know, use your chops differently as an actor who's so established and so respected, it's different than if you were stuck on a series for eight years and then had to do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:I remember when Kelsey Grammer came to New York and he did the Scottish play, did Macbeth.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just after doing Frasier for so long, and he's a wonderful actor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I thought, oh, you need a transition.
Guest:You can't.
Guest:You've been Frasier for so long that it's going to be hard.
Guest:And it didn't go so well.
Guest:And I thought, you know, gosh.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You have to sort of, you know, and that's really the gift, though, of being like of like having such a full life in the stage that, you know, somehow or another, you're fortunate not only being great at that, but not making the decision to get stuck on a series for a fucking decade.
Guest:Well, I mean, look, there were certainly times when I would happily have been here doing a series.
Guest:I mean, I came and did them, but they just never lasted.
Guest:I did like a couple.
Guest:Well, in a way, yeah.
Guest:In a way, thank God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But because the theater just allows you to also the wealth of material.
Guest:Right.
Marc:It keeps happening.
Guest:It keeps going.
Guest:And unfortunately, and it's the only place where I have a little bit of clout to say, would you like to do this?
Guest:I have an idea about doing this or that.
Marc:And you might get some people to produce it.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Have you done that with things?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Like what?
Guest:Where I've said, let's do, well, you know, like Scott Rudin is a very old friend, and so we've now done a few things together.
Marc:Oh, you did that Titus thing, right?
Guest:Oh, Gary, a sequel to Titus Antiochus.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's a whole other podcast.
Guest:Isn't that Rudin?
Guest:That was Rudin, wasn't it?
Guest:That was Scott Rudin, and we did, for example, we did the front page.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He said, what do you want to do?
Marc:That's the show that I just embarrassed myself about a few minutes ago.
Guest:That was the show based on the movie.
Marc:Yeah, sure, yeah.
Guest:The front page, the show based on a movie.
Guest:But you and Rudin did that.
Guest:That's what it is now.
Guest:Now it is shows based on movies.
Guest:It used to be movies based on shows.
Marc:Yes, but that was you and Rudin?
Guest:Yes, and he said, what do you want to do?
Guest:And I said, in the front page, which was sort of daring because it's like 25 people.
Marc:Why that play?
Marc:You're a guy with clout.
Guest:It's one of the greatest...
Guest:Plays ever written.
Guest:Tom Stoppard would tell you it is the classic American comedy.
Guest:But there was nothing before it or after that's ever been like it.
Guest:And it's hard to do well.
Guest:And the character of Walter Burns is one of the greatest parts ever written.
Guest:And it has maybe the greatest last line to a play ever written.
Guest:Which is, there's a whole long setup, but the last line, it doesn't matter.
Guest:There's a long setup, and you think it's going one way.
Guest:You think he's done something really sweet.
Guest:He's the most horrible human being you could imagine.
Guest:I love playing those guys.
Guest:And he picks up the phone, and he's calling the police to pick up Hilde, the reporter, and stop them from getting married.
Guest:Because he's given him his watch as a sentimental gesture.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And so and he's very touched by that.
Guest:And they leave.
Guest:And then he calls up and tells the guy to call the police.
Guest:And because the last line is the son of a bitch stole my watch.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Big laugh, but horrible sadness.
Marc:Huge, huge laugh.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, it was.
Guest:And the thrill was audiences who remembered it fondly or knew it was coming or people who didn't know it was coming in were shocked and like roared.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Roar of laughter that that line gets that this this piece of machinery that they built.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And this character was based on their real-life editor that Charles MacArthur worked for, who famously fell.
Guest:He slipped and fell on a spike and lost an eye.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:And he had a glass eye.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Charles MacArthur said, you could tell which was the glass eye because it was the warmer one.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So anyway, it's just one of my favorite plays.
Guest:And it hadn't been done in a very long time.
Guest:It had been done like in the 80s.
Guest:Jerry Sachs directed a very successful revival with John Lithgow and Richard Thomas.
Guest:And so I just wanted to play that part.
Guest:I wanted to be the guy on stage who got to say, the son of a bitch stole my watch.
Guest:And I did.
Guest:And I can't tell you how thrilling it was when you got to it.
Guest:That's great.
Guest:John Goodman.
Guest:The great John Goodman was in it.
Guest:John Slattery.
Marc:Oh, Slattery's great, too.
Marc:I think if I lived in New York, I would see more plays.
Marc:Sure you would.
Marc:I'd make you.
Marc:Yeah, I would have to.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I do like to go, but I don't go here.
Guest:Well, it's the great... I go when I go to New York.
Marc:A lot of times, Rudin sends me to plays.
Marc:Rudin?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, you're friends with him, are you?
Marc:I don't know if we're friends, but he's taken a liking to me and he books my show sometimes.
Marc:Oh, get out of town.
Marc:He's like, do you know Annie Baker?
Marc:I'm like, no.
Marc:I think the first time you were pitched was probably Rudin.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Yeah, because he'll write us and be like, do you know Annie Baker stuff?
Marc:I'm like, I don't.
Marc:And then all of a sudden I'm going to Annie Baker shows.
Marc:Because of him, I talked to George Wolfe, Stephen Karam, all of them, because Scott was like, you should talk to these people.
Marc:And that's sort of been my- Well, eventually you'll do a one-man show.
Marc:He'll produce it.
Marc:I wanted to interview him, but it just hasn't happened.
Guest:Oh, he's he's got some stories to tell and vice versa.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But so the producers and the outcome, but the producers was like, in my memory, only because I'm not so locked in that that changed Broadway.
Guest:Well, I don't know about that.
Guest:The producers was- Didn't it revitalize it?
Guest:Make it sort of- Well, the producers was like a zeitgeist hit.
Guest:The producers came along at just the right time after many years of depressing British musicals and Les Mis and Miss Saigon.
Guest:And it was all the emphasis was on comedy and musical comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, it was also tied into the sort of the revival of Mel Brooks's career.
Guest:You know, it was like he was sort of out of favor for a long time.
Guest:And then he put this thing together and it worked.
Guest:It was just one of those times when all the right people came together, which has to happen in a musical.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because there were so many people involved and it all has to seem like it's coming from the...
Guest:One voice, one original voice, which was certainly Mel.
Guest:And the fact that everyone were working at the top of their game, and we went to Chicago and opened it, and it was like, from the first performance, it was ridiculous how much they liked it.
Guest:Like Matthew said, they even liked the bad stuff.
Guest:They didn't.
Guest:They would have stayed for another hour.
Guest:And I said, but this is like cult film lovers who love the movie and wanted to see it.
Guest:And I said, it won't be like this tomorrow.
Guest:And then it was exactly like that.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Even more.
Guest:It was like they were so hungry for that kind of madness and that it was all about the comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So much about the comedy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was like a museum of comedy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:So it was – and also it was Matthew and I who had known each other.
Guest:We had done voices in the original Lion King.
Guest:And he – but we had – this was really our first time working together.
Guest:And so we – and that's really how we became friends.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, he's, like, done a lot of stage work, too.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so we, you know, that became a part of the show, really, is that sort of the friendship and love of these two guys, you know, one sort of looking after the other and, you know, taking him under his corrupt wing.
Guest:But so all of that combined, and it was, I've never, everyone should have that experience.
Guest:I've never experienced anything where
Guest:They couldn't get enough of it.
Guest:Everybody loved it.
Guest:And then eventually, of course, there's a backlash.
Guest:It wasn't that good.
Guest:Did that happen?
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:That always happens.
Guest:If something is that popular, people eventually turn on it.
Guest:What were we thinking?
Guest:What were we thinking?
Guest:It's like they wake up and they have to pay the hooker.
Guest:It's like, what's happening?
Guest:This was not... I was so in love earlier.
Guest:But...
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It seemed to change things somehow.
Marc:It revitalized the musical.
Marc:I don't know what I don't know.
Guest:It feels like sure that an up ticket prices.
Guest:And that was one thing.
Guest:And then it's you know, I think it led certainly led to some other shows like Spamalot or.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But that kind of comedy.
Marc:Did you have fun working with Mel?
Marc:How much did you spend time?
Marc:I interviewed him years ago and it was the greatest thing.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:What a fucking great thing that was.
Guest:I can only imagine.
Guest:No, he's the most entertaining human being in the world.
Guest:And no, to get to work with him that closely and getting to know him and Anne Bancroft and, you know, those times together.
Guest:And I'll always remember.
Guest:And yeah, to have lived through that.
Guest:The whole experience, it was a very bonding experience, and he was, you know, we had just so many laughs.
Marc:Didn't he try it with Young Frankenstein, too?
Guest:Yes, then there was Young Frankenstein.
Guest:Did that work?
Guest:It didn't work as well.
Guest:And also, it's hard to follow something like the producers.
Marc:Sure, but I'm just wondering if it did work at all.
Guest:It didn't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It didn't.
Guest:And it was very expensive and...
Guest:But he then recently when I was in London doing Angels in America, he came and they did a new version of Young Frankenstein, sort of a streamlined version where they cut away a lot of the fat.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he wrote like two or three new numbers.
Guest:And it was a huge success in the West End.
Guest:Oh, it was.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I think it always bothered him that it didn't do so well on Broadway.
Guest:But it was a big hit in London.
Marc:So tell me about like taking on Angels because I think I saw the original cast of that.
Marc:And what's his name who played Cohen?
Marc:Ron Liebman.
Marc:Yeah, Liebman.
Marc:Like I just remember Liebman was like almost like spraying spit.
Marc:You know, it was like a wild dying animal.
Marc:Right.
Marc:How'd you do it?
Guest:Wow.
Guest:This is like a conversation at Thanksgiving with an aunt.
Guest:How did you do it?
Guest:Do a little.
Guest:Just do a little.
Guest:Give me a little Roy Cohen.
Guest:You know, it's...
Guest:Look, it's one of the greatest plays of the 20th century and one of the greatest parts ever written.
Guest:It's a gift.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a real gift.
Marc:But how do you approach it?
Marc:I guess maybe I was just being too dramatic.
Marc:I don't usually ask questions like that, but it's because I didn't get to see you.
Marc:I didn't see you in it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And like he's a real guy.
Guest:Well, now you can hear it.
Guest:We did an audio recording of it.
Guest:Andrew Garfield, the whole cast, did it.
Guest:How do you approach it?
Guest:Well, you know, it's a lot of research because it's a real person.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, you try to talk to some people who knew him.
Guest:I tried to talk to him.
Guest:Had you met him?
Guest:No.
Guest:But, you know, it's easy to find people who hated him.
Guest:Most people hated him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I talked to a few people who were friends, who were very loyal to him and loved him.
Guest:And I wanted to hear about that.
Guest:There's only one real... You know, he wrote an autobiography, which is hilarious.
Guest:But the only real book is this biography, Citizen Cone.
Guest:And the first chapter is literally about the two last years of his life, which is when the play is happening, when he's gotten the AIDS diagnosis.
Guest:And there was a lot of interesting stuff in that, especially like hospital reports about his behavior in the hospital and what he was going through physically.
Guest:And I thought there were, especially in Perestroika, which is when he's in the hospital, and his disintegration, I felt there was a more interesting way of showing that, of seeing him, you know, this guy fighting for his life to the very end and seeing him slowly falling apart.
Guest:So that in some of the... And it was informed by some of what I had read, which was that like there was a tremor.
Guest:He developed a tremor.
Guest:And he used to just hold his hand to keep it from shaking because he wanted to control everything.
Guest:But it kept coming back.
Guest:And sometimes it would be in the other hand...
Guest:So that was something I used.
Guest:It was affecting his voice.
Guest:So I thought, so at a certain point, uh, my voice, I changed my voice a bit.
Guest:You saw there was a weakening and, um, uh, and then, you know, then he would have these full body tremors, which were really awful to watch.
Guest:And, and, um,
Guest:So that was a part of it.
Guest:Essentially, those guys, when you play those kinds of monsters, obviously they don't think of themselves that way.
Guest:He thinks he's doing the right thing, and he believes fully in what he's doing.
Guest:But it's just...
Guest:ultimately it's tony's play the language of that play yeah you you any actor worth his salt you you would rise to the occasion because it takes you places you'd never thought you'd go and it's it's so brilliantly written um it's inspiring i mean every when we would have do these um you know the one play is three and a half hours the other is four hours yeah
Guest:so when you're working like that and it's beautifully uh the architecture of that part is you do get plenty of breaks as opposed to say andrew garfield who was like on for most of the time yeah um but you know it was always you couldn't i couldn't wait to do it again to because the you know the scene in the doctor's office when he tells him he's not you know he he couldn't possibly have aids because he's not
Guest:You know, the extraordinary piece of writing.
Guest:One of the greatest scenes ever written.
Guest:You know, you just couldn't wait to get to do it again and find something else or do it another way.
Guest:Jesus, that scene, you know, it was always the most, interestingly, I always thought it was the most challenging.
Guest:Ultimately, you have to play the human being.
Guest:You have to play the guy who was the little Jewish prince who was told he was the most important person in the world and who realized two things, that he could never allow himself to be vulnerable or to be seen as different.
Guest:From a very early age, he had an uncle who went to jail, Uncle Bernie, who went to jail, and then just the notion of being different, of being gay.
Guest:No one could ever know that.
Marc:What was your experience with that as a kid?
Marc:When did you know?
Guest:When did I know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My mother took me to see a movie called The Yellow Rolls Royce.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How old were you?
Guest:I feel like all I ever say is, I was 10, 11.
Guest:Yeah, nine.
Guest:Let's say nine.
Guest:I don't know how old I was.
Guest:Do nine.
Guest:Nine's good.
Guest:Nine's good.
Guest:And this was one of those big movies with an international cast.
Guest:It was written by Terrence Rattigan, and it was directed by Anthony Asquith and Rex Harrison and Jean Moreau and Shirley MacLaine.
Guest:George C. Scott was in it playing a gangster.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was a stretch.
Guest:And all these great actors, Ingrid Bergman, Omar Sharif.
Guest:He always dropped by in an international cast movie.
Guest:So but in this vignette, it was it was, you know, one of those movies, there was like three vignettes all around this conversation.
Guest:Rolls Royce, this car that passed on, and then they would tell a different story.
Guest:So Shirley MacLaine is left in Italy with Art Carney, George C. Scott's henchman, and he has to go back to Chicago and kill somebody.
Guest:So she's there for a few days in Italy, and there's an Italian photographer played by Alain Dallon, the French actor.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:who was at his most beautiful.
Guest:And at one point, he takes Shirley MacLaine to a, there's a cove and there's a, you know, there's water and they go swimming and he's in a little bathing suit and it's all very sexy.
Guest:And then they get in the back of the Rolls Royce and, you know, she pulls down a shade and Art Carney realizes stuff is going on.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just remember feeling, getting weird feelings in my stomach.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When I saw Alain Delon and he was all wet.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And there was something about he was so beautiful and he was so wet and he was in this little speedo.
Guest:And I was like, why am I feeling like this?
Guest:Shirley MacLaine.
Guest:I love Shirley MacLaine.
Guest:I'm so comfortable with Shirley.
Guest:But he's making me very nervous, this guy, this French guy.
Guest:Maybe it's French people make me nervous.
Guest:That was it.
Guest:So that was sort of a sign that I was different from the other boys.
Guest:But it was, I'll always remember.
Guest:Was it a struggle, though, with the Catholicism?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I had very early abandoned Catholicism.
Guest:It was a religion based on fear and hypocrisy and child molestation.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Centuries of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, um, no, it was, um, I, I was living at home.
Guest:My mother was doing a little better.
Guest:I was 21 and I was going to move to New York.
Guest:This is in 77 and I had met someone and a relationship had developed and I was going to move to New York also.
Guest:So to be closer to him and maybe we're going to live together or something.
Guest:So I and I had she I hadn't dated like I hadn't dated in high school and I hadn't I didn't really date.
Guest:You know, I dated a couple I had a couple of days with women.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it just didn't work out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I remember one woman stood me up and they remember my brother and my brother felt so sad to me.
Guest:And I was like, oh, this is just not going my way.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Maybe there's maybe there's another gender.
Guest:Right.
Guest:yeah um so um so they didn't so no no no no no they didn't know so then uh i i i had never you know i hadn't we my mother and i because of all the things we've been through together because of her uh illness yeah i never lied to her and i had told her that uh she knew i was seeing someone in new york and i and and i told her it was uh
Guest:A girl because I didn't want her to be upset.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then but before I left the night before I left, I sat her down and I said, hey, you have to understand she's this little she's been through a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:This little Irish Catholic lady, very conservative, you know.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Her life has not gone so well.
Guest:And she – I said, I know you think I've been seeing a girl, but I've been seeing a guy.
Guest:And she was sitting on the – I can still see her sitting on a couch.
Guest:And she went pale and she said –
Guest:You mean you're a homosexual?
Guest:And I said, well, and I myself hadn't really thought about it.
Guest:And I said, yeah, I guess so.
Guest:And she said, oh, I would rather you were dead.
Guest:And I said, I knew you'd understand.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So now, of course, that was always, you know, that was sort of the worst of it.
Guest:You know, she never it wasn't like she was some.
Guest:No, of course.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But did she eventually warm up to it?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, sure.
Guest:I think, you know, really, she always would have preferred.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was straight and married, but she certainly met any of the major relationships I had.
Guest:She met those people and she, you know, and she was nice.
Guest:Yes, she was.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, there was one in particular.
Guest:I remember her.
Guest:I was getting a portrait at Sardi's, you know, Broadway actors writing a passage, you know, and I was dating at the time a modern dancer, rather handsome dancer.
Guest:yeah fella and and i introduced him to her there it was the first time she met him yeah and she um he went to get her a drink she looked at me and she said oh he's good and so i thought see look look at the progress we've made that's nice uh yeah but now you've been you you're married now
Guest:Married, yes.
Marc:Is that exciting?
Marc:Is that good?
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Is it comfortable?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Best decision I ever made.
Guest:How long have you been with him?
Guest:Well, we've been together a very long time, like 20 years.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:But we've been married three years.
Guest:Three years.
Marc:And what was it that made you decide to get married?
Marc:Just out of curiosity, because I've been married twice, and I don't think I'm going to do it again.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:I have no kids, so.
Guest:I understand.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I understand.
Guest:I think neither one of us, you know, is all for, yes, yes, if you want to get married, get married.
Guest:We're all for it.
Guest:We'll go to the rally.
Guest:But, you know, neither one of us had any interest in getting married.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Honestly.
Guest:And then a few years ago, we were talking about it, and then...
Guest:We felt like, yeah, I would like to marry you.
Guest:And then it was, but we don't want one of those big weddings and exchanging vows and all of that, you know, gay shit.
Guest:I don't want to get all gay about it.
Guest:I just want to marry you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So we went to City Hall.
Guest:You know, the irony is that we were the witnesses at Mike and Jen's wedding at City Hall.
Guest:Mike Birbiglia.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He called us, like, at home and said, the two people who were supposed to show up, his two friends.
Guest:He always has their exotic names, like Ptolemy.
Guest:And, you know, it was like Ptolemy was one of them.
Guest:I said, Ptolemy?
Guest:And Plutarch couldn't make it.
Guest:Can you come?
Guest:And so we were like, yeah, sure.
Guest:And it was like in July.
Guest:You know, of course, we're gay.
Guest:So we put on suits.
Guest:We get all dressed up and down there.
Guest:And they're in shorts and a T-shirt.
Guest:You know, and it's really hot.
Guest:So we get on a line.
Guest:You know, there's a long line, you know, to get set up to go to the chapel.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They have a chapel.
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:It's like it.
Guest:And so we remember Mike saying, you know, I said, well, maybe the lady will recognize me.
Guest:And he said, oh, I don't want any special treatment.
Guest:I said, that's all I want is special treatment.
Guest:That's the only reason I live is that maybe I'll get some special treatment.
Guest:So she did recognize me.
Guest:They went right in.
Guest:And then we left and they went out and had pizza, went to see a movie.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:So so we asked them to be our witnesses and then we got in there and they and and, you know, for me, a cynical old soul.
Guest:You know, you started to say these words that, you know, you've heard in a million movies and TV shows.
Guest:And do you take that business?
Guest:Well, what?
Guest:Which which words do you take this man?
Guest:Well, the whole thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, and it just to say it and then suddenly it was I just fell apart.
Guest:You know, I just I could barely speak.
Guest:It was so emotional.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And and and my husband is, you know, he's he he tends to keep that all inside.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he was just sort of smiling at me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was incredibly moving and meaningful.
Guest:And then it's just a little, it's not like anything drastically changes, but it's just, it's certainly you feel that, you know, just saying husband or, you know, it just, it's incredibly meaningful.
Guest:And so it was great that we were able to do it and what it's meant.
Marc:Well, that's beautiful.
Marc:Congratulations.
Marc:Thank you very much.
Marc:It was great talking to you.
Marc:It was great talking to you.
Guest:Get out.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Was it great?
Guest:Great talk.
Marc:Great talk.
Marc:Well, I had a great time.
Marc:I felt like you got a little mad at me because I didn't know enough about theater.
Marc:I get mad at anyone who doesn't know enough about theater.
Marc:Well, I'm going to try to educate myself.
Marc:Well, maybe this is a teaching moment, as they say.
Marc:I think now that my time has loosened up, maybe, and I have a little money, if there's some good show playing.
Marc:I'll buy you a ticket.
Guest:I'll take it.
Marc:I'm saying I'll fly in just to see some theater.
Guest:I'm going to be one of those guys.
Guest:I'm going to do Death of a Salesman, you know.
Guest:You are?
Guest:In 2021.
Guest:I would go see.
Guest:I saw the Arthur Miller play recently with Tracy Letts because I know Tracy.
Guest:Yeah, All My Sons.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I heard it was terrific.
Guest:I thought that was a good play because I didn't know.
Marc:It was his first big success.
Marc:But I didn't know the play.
Marc:You didn't.
Marc:No, that's what's great about being this dumb is that like I can go watch All My Sons and I don't know what's going to happen at the end.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:That is great.
Marc:I'll come see you in Death of a Salesman.
Marc:All right.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Thanks for talking.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Great talk.
Marc:I was so happy Nathan came by.
Marc:Truly a good guy.
Marc:And I don't have any music.
Marc:I do have a guitar, but it would be tricky.
Marc:I borrowed a guitar that we have to return to the guy.
Marc:A friend of mine who books comedy here in Ireland in Dublin lent me this little guitar he had because I wanted to have a guitar for a couple weeks.
Marc:And now I've got to figure out how to get it back to him.
Marc:But I think we've got a plan.
Marc:There's going to be a drop.
Marc:There's going to be a guitar drop on the way to the Dublin airport.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Boomer lives.
Boomer lives.