Episode 1070 - Tony Hale
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Now, look, I'm recording this a little early, earlier than usual to accommodate my travel plan.
Marc:So...
Marc:It's not that like I'm on the cutting edge of topical shit to begin with, but I just want you to know that this has been on the shelf for a few days, and I hope that's okay with you.
Marc:I'll try to keep it evergreen, thinking about reading a couple emails, thinking about reacting to a couple things.
Marc:This is really a great conversation today.
Marc:I'm going to tell you that right now.
Marc:Tony Hale is on the show today.
Marc:Now, Tony Hale is truly, I think, one of the funniest comedic actors working.
Marc:You've seen him in Veep.
Marc:You've seen him on Arrested Development.
Marc:He's now the voice of Forky in the show.
Marc:Forky Asks a Question for the new Disney Plus streaming service.
Marc:That launches tomorrow, November 12th.
Marc:He also has his own animated show on Netflix called Archibald's Next Big Thing.
Marc:I did a voice of a hermit crab on that show, but you know him from...
Marc:from all his comedic work and all his straight acting work.
Marc:But we had a very interesting talk about faith and about being a person of faith.
Marc:Not so much in an argumentative way, but just the way people talk about their life and what their life is.
Marc:I think getting to know Tony was an exciting thing for me to do because I have a great respect for his talent.
Marc:But now as a person, you get to know people a little better.
Marc:We had a lot in common.
Marc:Jesus not being one of them but I respect his position on it and his life in light of that and in everything else you know it was just one of those talks that went a place that's very interesting and exciting to me so that's coming up I guarantee you you'll be surprised and excited to get to know Tony funny fucking guy and just great I mean Jesus on Veep are you kidding me
Marc:All right.
Marc:So here's some emails.
Marc:Some of them are heavy, but I'll share them with you.
Marc:You know, I recently engaged with somebody who thought it was not right.
Marc:And I talk about this in a future podcast in an interview I just did the other day to share about being an AA, even though I say I don't represent AA, even though there's other ways to get sober and whatever.
Marc:But you got to know the shit's out there.
Marc:But there's people within the program that are like, hey, man, there's a tradition that says you can't talk about it publicly.
Marc:Well, well, that condition is like the Constitution.
Marc:It needs that tradition.
Marc:It's like there's an amendment needs to be made.
Marc:This is the real world.
Marc:This is modern times.
Marc:This is you need to save lives.
Marc:But anyways, I just say that because I do get emails like this one.
Marc:Sober on the streets of Nashville.
Marc:Hi, Mark.
Marc:I wanted to reach out to you today as I just got my first year of sobriety and it was through your podcast that I came to understand that it was something I wanted.
Marc:I picked up on the concept of sobriety being treated as a spiritual connectedness.
Marc:Through one of your episodes, forgive me, I can't remember which one it was exactly.
Marc:And while it took me another year to get sober, I always remember that one moment on your show.
Marc:You seem to have something I wanted, as we say in the program.
Marc:Anyways, my wife and I came to your show in Nashville last month.
Marc:It was hilarious.
Marc:And we ran into you on the street after.
Marc:I asked you if you wanted to get dinner as you seem to seem to tat alone.
Marc:But you're on your way to the Ryman to see Jason Isbell.
Marc:It was an honor to be able to say hi to you for a second.
Marc:Shake your hand, though.
Marc:I hope you enjoyed Jason, enjoyed performing for us, and had an all-around good time in Nashville.
Marc:Kind regards, Josh, in Nashville.
Marc:Yes, I had a great time.
Marc:Congratulations on your year of sobriety.
Marc:That is no small feat, man.
Marc:Good shit.
Marc:Good for you.
Marc:Along the same lines, hey, Mark, subject line, lozenges.
Marc:I really enjoy it when you talk about nicotine lozenges.
Marc:I'm not really sure why I find it so fascinating.
Marc:I haven't had a cigarette in seven years.
Marc:I don't even want to smoke again.
Marc:I loved it, but I guess I tricked my brain into being over it.
Marc:Quit cold turkey.
Marc:I was having weird heart palpitations that were freaking me out, so I quit everything for a week.
Marc:No caffeine, cigs, booze, nothing.
Marc:I guess from the caffeine-nicotine withdrawals, I ended up sweeping most of the week.
Marc:It wasn't really hard for me to stay off the cigs and coffee.
Marc:Gave up my coffee for about five years.
Marc:Terrible.
Marc:Back on it.
Marc:I love it.
Marc:My life's more enjoyable with a couple of daily cups.
Marc:My buddy's been off cigarettes for two years, but he's still on the nicotine gum.
Marc:He says it's great.
Marc:He says he keeps them regular.
Marc:Another friend of mine was trying to get off the vape, and he heard your pod with Dorf and decided to get some Walgreens lozenges.
Marc:It worked for him.
Marc:He's off the vape.
Marc:Now I catch myself eyeing the lozenges and the gum when I'm at the store.
Marc:Would I be an idiot to get on lozenges after being off nicotine for seven years?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I have my two cups of coffee in the morning and then I'm like, damn, now what?
Marc:What's up on those fucking lozenges?
Marc:Huh?
Marc:Anyway, congrats for getting off the lozenges.
Marc:Thanks for the pod and the comedy.
Marc:So look, dude, don't do it.
Marc:You're off.
Marc:You're out.
Marc:There's no fucking way that you're not going to get strung out on lozenges.
Marc:If you're an addict, listen to you, even the way you write.
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:Don't do it.
Marc:Don't do it.
Marc:Because you'll be in it, you'll be in it, and then you'll have to kick it.
Marc:I can't believe I'm going on vacation without a fucking monkey on my back.
Marc:Sorry, I was looking at my phone.
Marc:Why is this happening?
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:My phone...
Marc:Just recorded everything I just said and transcribed it into a text to Brendan.
Marc:I got a 10 and the buttons are fucked.
Marc:I'm sorry.
Marc:Where's my brain?
Marc:Anyways.
Marc:This one gets a little darker.
Marc:Putting dad down, subject line.
Marc:Mark, my dad's been suffering from Parkinson's for about 15 years, and his health is, of course, degrading severely as the incurable disease progresses.
Marc:I struggle emotionally with watching this from a distance and feeling helpless as my job requires I live across the country from my parents.
Marc:I wish I could be there to help my mother with the growing weight of caring for my aging father and my inability to be there in any constructive manner pains me.
Marc:So your little back and forth about taking your dad to the vet to put him down struck a chord.
Marc:It was exactly the comic relief about my own situation I desperately needed.
Marc:Were you being cynical?
Marc:Maybe a little, but it highlights our national need to be able to discuss end-of-life planning without stigma or fear.
Marc:But overall, you brought some much-needed levity to a difficult situation, and I appreciate that.
Marc:My sense of humor comes primarily from my father, and he would have found your discussion equally amusing.
Marc:Regards, HR.
Marc:Glad to help out, pal.
Marc:Sorry what you're going through.
Marc:It's horrible.
Marc:And you're right.
Marc:We do need to sort of talk about death in a more grown up fashion without denial and also about end of life planning.
Marc:I think you're absolutely right.
Marc:I think that is true.
Marc:So.
Marc:What does this one say?
Marc:Oh, yes.
Marc:Yeah, this is sad.
Marc:You know, this guy, you know, I'm dreading this.
Marc:Dear Mark, subject line, my cat passing, I've been a big fan of yours for years in both good times and bad.
Marc:The many states of mind and circumstances in between have turned to your WTF podcast, to your shows and to your movies for laughter inside and most of all for heart.
Marc:Thank you so much for all that you do for me and for millions of others.
Marc:Two weeks ago, my beloved cat Jasper died suddenly from a cardiac event.
Marc:There was no warning up to that morning and he died laying next to me in the passenger seat of my car on the way to the emergency vet, my hand petting the top of his head, trying to soothe his tremendous pain.
Marc:I cried my eyes out, and when I got to the vet, even more so when I was told, as I'd feared, that he was indeed gone and there was nothing more that I or anyone else could do to save him.
Marc:Today, having picked up his ashes from the vet and with many tears shed, I think about how I've gotten through the last couple of weeks and how among my friends and family, and yes, my psychoanalysts,
Marc:to another person has also been such an ally in this journey of mourning.
Marc:You, Marc Maron, and your WTF podcast, I think of your love, your grittiness, your unabashedly being yourself, and I think of your being a cat person through and through, and how I believe you'd get this, that you'd empathize with me, and that I'd feel both your humor...
Marc:And your heart.
Marc:So I'm writing this in hopes of it reaching you.
Marc:Maybe even hearing something back.
Marc:And to say you keep helping my life get better.
Marc:Including in times of loss.
Marc:Respectfully yours Jack in Seattle.
Marc:Jack.
Marc:I'm sorry man.
Marc:You know, there's nothing anyone can say or do to make grief any easier.
Marc:I mean, maybe you can make it easier, but it's still going to last as long as it's going to last.
Marc:And we love these fucking animals.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I've been spending so much time with monkey right now.
Marc:Because he's sick and he's 15 and his sister's 15 and I'm giving him the pills.
Marc:I don't think I'm going to get him radiated because he's always OK.
Marc:But I'm really paying attention to enjoying his company.
Marc:It's a weird thing that you get to do.
Marc:Not so much with.
Marc:Parents or kids or you may be when they're sick, but I don't want to be too dark.
Marc:But, you know, with animals, when they get old, you know, you're supposed to outlive the animals, generally speaking.
Marc:And, you know, it's coming.
Marc:And I think that there is a way to start the grieving before they go.
Marc:but i'm sorry you lost your cat suddenly i hope he had a good life with you and that you had a good life with him and you know what jack and i'm not this is not cynical but once you get over it you can just get another one i know the cat with jasper was special but they're all fucking geniuses and you can just pick them up off the street they're like everywhere there's you you could with two with one phone call you could find a dozen cats if you wanted and
Marc:There's plenty of cats that need love, and you will find the strength to get one eventually.
Marc:But I hear you.
Marc:I empathize.
Marc:I get it, dude.
Marc:Tony Hale, you know him from Veep, from Arrested Development, from other features, animated things, Drunk History, all of that.
Marc:He's the voice of Forky in the show Forky Asks a Question for the new Disney Plus streaming service.
Marc:that launches tomorrow november 12th he also has his own animated show on netflix called archibald's next big thing i did a voice for that i played a hermit crab and i was i've always been curious about uh tony and what he's like and who he is and i was thrilled to have him and glad he came over i didn't know if it was going to happen and it's it's happened it's happened and he's here so this is me talking to tony hale enjoy
Guest:So how'd our cartoon turn out?
Guest:So for those of you who didn't know, Mark did a voice on this cartoon I produced called Archibald's Next Big Thing, and he played a hermit crab who was very used to living alone, and his shell got broke, and Archibald, the...
Guest:Chicken came along and said, well, I need to help you find a home.
Guest:And his name was Freddy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Freddy was like, no, I'm okay.
Guest:I'm okay.
Guest:I'm okay.
Guest:And Archibald's like, no, let me help you.
Guest:You want me to do it?
Guest:No, I'm okay.
Guest:I'm okay.
Guest:I'm okay.
Guest:And then in the end, the lesson is like, you know, he needed a little push to get some friends.
Guest:He always thought, oh, I can live an isolated life.
Guest:And Archibald's like, no, we need community.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, and it worked out.
Marc:And then there was a lot of crabs at the end, I remember.
Marc:You built a crab condo.
Marc:Yeah, a crab condo.
Marc:Out of broken pottery pieces.
Guest:But that was based on a book you co-wrote?
Guest:I wrote with my buddies Tony Boyagni and Victor Huckabee years ago called Archibald's Next Big Thing.
Guest:But was that a popular book?
Guest:It was an amazing experience.
Guest:I don't think it did not do gangbusters, but it was really fun because it was based on this idea of me always looking to the next thing and missing where I was.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And so Archibald- That's a real problem we all have, Tony.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I'm still struggling with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he gets, anyways, he gets a card in the mail that says your big thing is here.
Guest:And he's like, where?
Guest:And he goes on all these adventures.
Guest:But he's like, I got to get to my next big thing.
Guest:And this bee comes along.
Guest:It's like, you got to just bee, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then in the end, he realizes the truth is our big thing is right here.
Guest:My big thing is talking to you right now.
Guest:That's my big thing.
Marc:Right, but do you have this problem, like I noticed this as we're talking about that thing I did with you, is that, and I knew you were coming over today, is that I knew I did it, I knew I played a hermit crab, I knew I was cranky, and, but like, because really when it comes down.
Marc:Which was very nice of you to do, by the way, I appreciated you doing it.
Marc:No, it was great, I was happy to do it, it was fun, but like it's really, like you're only, I'm in the studio basically one day, and then another day for pickups,
Marc:And I'm sitting there yesterday and I'm like, I can't remember the fucking story.
Marc:I know I was a crab, but does that happen to you or should I go to the doctor?
Guest:No, you shouldn't go.
Guest:What if today's the day I'm like, you have a real problem, Mark?
Guest:No, I... Like I can't remember shit.
Guest:Well, okay, this is what my... Go ahead, take your time.
Guest:I say this knowing that I still struggle with it.
Guest:So I'm coming from a place of like, this is a daily battle for me.
Guest:I don't remember most of my life.
Guest:And I actually don't remember sixth grade down at all.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Not even bits?
Guest:I don't remember friends.
Guest:I don't remember teachers.
Guest:I don't remember anything.
Guest:None of it?
Guest:None of it.
Guest:None of it.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Therapists have tried to crack the code.
Guest:I don't even understand.
Guest:But I do know the older I got, I still don't remember much.
Guest:However-
Guest:When I wasn't practicing being present in a place, I feel like I've been pretty detached for most of my life, whether it be with anxiety or checked out somewhere else, whether dreaming about something or creating narratives that haven't happened yet, whatever it is.
Guest:And when that happens- Horrible narratives?
Guest:Oh, yeah, fully, like full narratives.
Guest:I've already walked through trauma that doesn't even exist.
Guest:And so I think with that, you're not there.
Guest:And so I don't remember it.
Guest:And the times that I have practiced being present, and I will say Veep is an example of that.
Guest:During Arrested Development, I was not very present.
Guest:And that's where the book came from.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Where Archibald came from?
Guest:Yeah, that kind of idea of just being present.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Veep, I really tried to be there and I remember more.
Marc:Yeah, of that.
Guest:Of that.
Guest:And it's recent.
Guest:And it's recent and it's a lesson I'm trying, especially having a daughter.
Guest:She's 13.
Guest:She's 13 now.
Guest:13?
Guest:She's 13 and I'm really like, Tony, be right here.
Guest:Don't be somewhere checked out in your head because yours are going fast.
Guest:Right, they do go by very fast, and I just have old cats to look at.
Guest:I don't have any children.
Guest:Very sweet cats that I just met.
Guest:I can't believe one of them is 15.
Guest:Two of them are 15.
Marc:They're brother and sister.
Guest:Where'd the name Monkey come from?
Guest:Monkey looked like a monkey.
Guest:You think the cat looked like a monkey?
Marc:When I first got him, he had this weird tuft of hair on his nose that went away, that kind of reconfigured his face to look more like a monkey face.
Guest:Where did you get him?
Marc:I got La Fonda and Monkey and they were running around.
Marc:La Fonda.
Marc:That's so good.
Marc:Yeah, that was my ex-wife named that cat.
Marc:I think it was probably after Napoleon Dynamite.
Marc:But I pulled those cats out of the back alley of my Astoria apartment in 2004.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Marc:wow there were five of them and they were all feral it's quite a story i've told it many times i trapped them all in boxes thinking they would just be fun kittens but they were already wild and then i couldn't get them out of my house and it was a fucking disaster yeah yeah yeah and you don't have any allergies no not that i know of do you 100 percent
Marc:Cat?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Did you know that you were cats?
Guest:Nope.
Guest:You were supposed to be told.
Guest:It's totally fine.
Guest:I've got my inhaler with me.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:Because years ago- So you might have watched me have an asthma attack on radio.
Marc:I've seen it before.
Marc:Years ago, Ed Helms almost died in the garage, and sadly and selfishly, I had not gotten the amount of time I wanted out of him.
Marc:So I let poor Ed wheeze through.
Marc:So he has asthma, Ed.
Marc:He has cat allergy bad.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like real bad because that garage, I didn't even let the cats in.
Marc:So it must've been through the air conditioner or something.
Guest:I think the old, I used to not be able to have any pets.
Guest:We got some dogs.
Guest:And I think that has kind of decreased my sensitivity.
Guest:The dander sensitivity.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Well, let's talk about this thing because like you're saying that...
Marc:With Veep, you were more present and more able to remember, though it was recent.
Marc:Don't you find that during Arrested Development, at least in the first season, you were still struggling to some degree, right?
Marc:So that whole weird struggle part of like, am I gonna land?
Marc:If everything that you do that's still part of that active struggle before you sort of land and go, I'm okay.
Marc:If you're lucky enough to be okay, which you are in terms of career,
Guest:It's still always a struggle to be like rest and just, hey, I'm provided for.
Guest:It's amazing how when you're younger, it's always a hustle.
Guest:It can always feel like a hustle.
Marc:But that anxiety levels.
Guest:It levels your ability to sort of take in what's happening.
Guest:And I talk about this a lot of time to the point where I'm like, oh God, I'm sure I'm just boring everybody.
Guest:To who?
Guest:I don't know, anytime I, this is, I mean, I get on a bit of a soapbox about it because I got my dream on Arrested Development and it didn't satisfy me the way I thought it was gonna satisfy me.
Guest:Does anything?
Guest:If I think if I, but here's the thing.
Guest:Anything doesn't if your expectations are unrealistic.
Guest:And I think I came into Arrested Development because all the times in New York, I was like, all I wanted was a sitcom.
Guest:I just wanted a sitcom.
Guest:And I was there seven years and I was like, that's coming, that's coming.
Guest:And I gave it too much weight.
Guest:And then I got there and I was like, oh.
Guest:just the reality of I gave it too much power.
Guest:And so I think because of that, I woke up to the fact of I had been, just not been very present.
Marc:I think that when I really look at things, my expectations are really, for the most part, just to feel better.
Marc:I don't think it's gonna solve any big problems or that I'm gonna launch into some other level of fame.
Marc:But I'd like to get through something and after I'm through it, not go like, God, I could have done better.
Guest:I don't know if you do this.
Guest:I think my time in New York, and I still do this to an extent,
Guest:Whatever I was going through, whether it was, you know, the struggle or life or something, there was always this fantasy and narrative in my head of like, oh, once that sitcom happens, once this perfect job happens.
Guest:And for me, it was the job someone else could be.
Guest:Once I get married, once I have a baby, whatever it is, then something's going to click in.
Guest:And I gave that thing too much power.
Guest:And it's just, you know, and then I was there and I was like, and I've said this a lot, but it's that thing of if you're not practicing contentment where you are, you're not going to be content when you get what you want.
Guest:Those seem to be the big theme.
Guest:So where do you come from?
Guest:Just in growing up?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was the South.
Guest:Well, my dad was in the Army.
Guest:I was an Army brat.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like how much did you travel?
Guest:I think I traveled, I think it was like six or seven times before the seventh grade.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my brother and I talk about this.
Guest:That might have been a part of the memory thing.
Guest:Just you really didn't really- Were you like in Germany and-
Guest:Yeah, we were in Germany.
Guest:We lived in Heidelberg in Berlin for five years.
Guest:And then the seventh grade, we settled in Tallahassee.
Guest:Oof.
Guest:I love Tallahassee.
Guest:Why do you have that reaction?
Guest:I don't.
Guest:Do you not like Florida?
Guest:I avoid it.
Marc:My mother's there.
Guest:Oh, where?
Marc:She's in- My parents are in Vero Beach.
Marc:Hollywood, Florida.
Marc:Fort Lauderdale area.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:The Jew area.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And Jews and Germans in the summer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But no, I've grown to appreciate Florida, but I actually did a show in Tallahassee at the college.
Marc:At FSU?
Marc:Yeah, part of a program, which was good, but it was like shortly after the election.
Marc:I mean, Tallahassee's the South.
Marc:Where my mother is, is something else.
Marc:It is true.
Marc:Tallahassee is very Georgian.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And my feelings was just only because like, you know, it's a very small pocket of blue if it, you know, within that world.
Marc:And, you know, at that time, you know, I'm looking at the businesses and the way that, you know, I'm judging to a certain degree.
Marc:But I did have one of these revelations there where, you know, I was at some health food restaurant near the college and there was three or four like older looking progressive people kind of huddled and talking about how terrified they were.
Marc:And I'm like, is this what America is going to look like?
Marc:were just like huddled groups of old hippies going like, we're in trouble.
Marc:So I think it was my opinion of it.
Marc:The school seemed great and the audience was pretty good.
Guest:And I just spent middle school and high school there and I,
Guest:You know, I had a typical, you know, off and on growing up, but it's like I had some really good memories there, so I enjoy going back.
Marc:So you do have those memories?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:A couple.
Guest:A couple.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, I mean, to that point, I mean, it was tough at times, but I found this theater that I really kind of felt seen and enjoyed.
Guest:My brother was into sports.
Guest:I wasn't into sports.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Like, what was he?
Guest:He was a soccer player.
Guest:He was a soccer player.
Guest:Older brother?
Guest:He was older.
Guest:And I didn't like sports.
Guest:And in the South, everything is sports.
Guest:And so when my parents found this theater, it was a real gift.
Guest:And so I have a lot of very, very fond memories about theater.
Guest:So you were like a children's theater?
Guest:Yeah, it was Young Actors Theater in Tallahassee, Florida.
Guest:And it was started by Tina Williams.
Guest:And the thing is, I'm a huge advocate for arts education.
Guest:Because even if you don't go into a career like we have, certain personalities need those environments to thrive.
Guest:And I was one of those personalities.
Marc:Yeah, I just did a benefit.
Marc:I host a benefit every year for Flea's Music Conservatory.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:The Silver League Conservatory of Music.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Which he did in response to public schools cutting music programs.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And I don't even... I mean, it's... I was not just... There's so many personalities that need that environment, and it's crazy for them to keep cutting those funds.
Marc:Like, what about...
Marc:Well, what about your, because I had that.
Marc:I had a guitar teacher.
Marc:I didn't do it in public school.
Marc:Music classes didn't resonate with me too much.
Marc:They were sort of aggravating, but guitar lessons did.
Marc:But what is it that you think?
Marc:What kind of personality?
Marc:What was it about you?
Guest:Well, I mean, I was a very sensitive kid.
Guest:I was kind of a little bit, a lot of energy, just kind of making jokes and quirky and all that kind of stuff.
Guest:Awkward?
Guest:Beyond.
Guest:I just wanted everybody to like me, very needy.
Guest:I remember this one story.
Guest:I didn't like sports so much.
Guest:I remember doing this swim meet and these people were swimming next to me and I stopped in the middle of the meet and stood up and my dad has this look like, what are you doing?
Guest:Keep going.
Guest:And he said, I had this look that was like, why?
Guest:I'm exhausted.
Guest:Why would I keep swimming?
Guest:But it was just, I felt like the theater was a space where, and I was encouraged to be kind of dramatic and goofy and
Guest:think beyond the box, and I love making people laugh.
Marc:So it's a military family, but it's not great Santini style, is it?
Guest:No, my dad was very, they were always very supportive.
Guest:My grandfather was an opera singer.
Guest:Your dad's father?
Guest:Yeah, and he performed also in a lot of clubs in Miami.
Guest:He died when my dad was very young.
Guest:So my dad had an appreciation for the arts.
Guest:So in addition to have his kind of military training, he was very artistic.
Guest:I wonder what drove him to the military.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Is he still around?
Guest:Yeah, he's still around.
Guest:It's a good question.
Guest:We've never talked about it, but I think he went to West Point.
Guest:Oh, he did.
Guest:And he even taught nuclear physics at West Point at one point.
Guest:So he's a smart guy.
Guest:He's a very smart guy, really a sensitive guy.
Guest:But him and my mom were always very supportive.
Guest:And what's your mom do?
Guest:And she did a lot of things.
Guest:She stayed at home with us when we were growing up.
Guest:Just you and your brother?
Guest:Me and my brother.
Guest:Well, my sister, we have an older sister too.
Guest:Oh, you do.
Guest:But she also was actually involved in politics a lot.
Guest:She helped people with campaigns when Bob Graham went for senator.
Guest:And she helped this woman in Atlanta when she was going through her campaign.
Guest:So she was kind of involved in politics too.
Guest:Yeah, so were you aware of that then?
Guest:No, I was only aware of myself.
Guest:It was all about me.
Guest:I was just like, when can I get a laugh?
Guest:When can I get attention?
Guest:How popular can I be?
Guest:All that stupid stuff.
Marc:But do you like, in your work, because you're sort of a very unique and memorable comic talent.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Guest:As are you.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:But it is kind of interesting, especially with the stuff you do on Veep, that that...
Marc:that character in and of itself is this insanely codependent character.
Marc:To a degree that I don't think's ever been really explored.
Marc:And it seems to come up.
Marc:As is Buster Bluth on Arrested Development.
Guest:True.
Marc:But these are sort of like from what you're saying to me that this is a big component of your personality.
Guest:It is, I do codependency very well.
Marc:But did you find when you were younger that you were at a loss for, outside of knowing how to laugh, knowing how to get laughs or wanting to get laughs, I'm just thinking about my own life.
Marc:Did you kind of glom on to stronger personalities?
Guest:Oh, that's a good way to look.
Guest:Yeah, I think I, that's a good question because I think if a person was very popular, I would probably, yeah, I can see myself wanting, yeah, I did try to attach myself to them to get some kind of identity.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that is what Gary did on Veep with Selena.
Guest:He had no identity outside of Selena Meyer.
Guest:So yeah, I think I did that all through high school.
Marc:I did too, and it's weird, I don't, because I consider you a fairly strong personality, and I consider myself one too, but there's this emotional thing, and I have tried to figure out exactly why I have it.
Guest:Yeah, I do think though, because I've listened to your podcast a lot, and this is what's great about life is you, I mean, it's not that I don't struggle with it, but man, the older you get, you really do identify when, huh,
Guest:I have a strong, I can settle in an identity I have and a value I have and not have to give power to that other person, you know?
Marc:No, for sure.
Marc:But like there's still, I still find that I have a fundamental envy of people that seem so non-reflecting, non-reflexively grounded in themselves.
Marc:Like, you know, when you see people that like, that guy never goes
Marc:Who am I?
Marc:Why am I so proud?
Guest:I'm actually envious of that too.
Guest:I'm envious of not walking around life and going, hey, we're spending on a planet, guys.
Guest:This doesn't, you know.
Guest:It's not going to end well.
Guest:I just drove by a graveyard.
Guest:We're all going there.
Guest:You know, like we're all, or like you want, sometimes you want to stand up at events and be like, hey, we're all going to die.
Guest:Does anybody recognize that?
Guest:No.
Guest:But some people, you're right, they kind of go through life and they accept it and they accept that.
Guest:It's taken a long time for me to accept the uncertainty, to live in the powerlessness of it all, to kind of almost live in the question, all that kind of stuff.
Marc:Yeah, I find that if I let myself get exhausted by anxiety, all those questions seem to become unimportant.
Guest:The life questions?
Marc:Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Guest:Where it's just like, I can't.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But do you also find it, I think there's another side of it.
Guest:I find it very comforting when I'm giving too much anxiety to something, too much power to something.
Guest:And I'm like, Tony, I go to a meta place and I'm like, again, we're spinning on a planet.
Guest:I was doing Conan once and I walked off stage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't feel like I did was very funny and I bombed or said something stupid.
Guest:Was this recently?
Guest:No, this was, well, maybe a couple of years ago.
Guest:I had this feeling like recently.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I walked off and I went up to Andy and I was like, Andy, I just, I don't think that was very funny.
Guest:I think I bombed and he goes, Tony, it doesn't matter.
Guest:It just doesn't matter.
Guest:And he's like, I think he gave the example of like, it's like a paper boat in the ocean.
Guest:It just goes away.
Marc:Andy's very good at that.
Guest:He's so good at that.
Guest:And I was like, and somebody else might interpret that as like, wow, that's really heavy.
Guest:But that was such a gift to me.
Guest:It's just like, yeah, it doesn't matter.
Marc:And it matters even less now usually.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In the sense of like, you know, who's going to see it?
Marc:What are you really worried about?
Marc:Who's going to judge you like you're going to judge yourself?
Guest:Well, it's that narrative.
Guest:I mean, I'll create a whole narrative of that.
Guest:Someone will...
Guest:take that to an extreme and think you know whatever right and it's all my thing of creating conversations that people might be having or actually here's the thing it's all narcissism to think that anybody will be thinking that much about well that's what i used to do a joke it wasn't really a joke it was a line i wrote that where i said uh you know most of what other people are thinking is something you're making up yeah yeah
Marc:They're not think they don't like think about yourself really.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How much time do you spend?
Marc:It's just crazy.
Guest:And the classic example, I'm sure you've done this of like when you're with a director, you're doing a scene and you think you didn't do it right.
Guest:You go home and you think how much that director is obsessing about how awful you are, what choice and this kind of stuff.
Guest:And it's like that director has got so much to think about.
Guest:He's got so much on his plate.
Guest:He's not thinking about you.
Marc:Or also when you walk off going like, you know, they don't care because like that was terrible.
Marc:And it's like, well, they chose to say cut.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:They're moving on.
Guest:Yeah, they got something.
Marc:A lot is hanging on them.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:They're not going to let you do garbage.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just go like, fuck it.
Marc:We'll just let that guy die.
Guest:Do you know what?
Guest:A cool thing that I learned on Veep, I'm, again, still learning, but-
Guest:David Mandel took up the show from Armando Iannucci and David was so fantastic.
Guest:However, when I was with Armando Iannucci, one thing Brits do, which is really great, they don't give you highs and lows in terms of response.
Guest:So it's like when we were with Armando Iannucci, you would do something and I think I'm so used to like, okay, the director's either going to be like,
Guest:oh my gosh, that was so great.
Guest:Or you're going to know that kind of was not great.
Guest:But Armando always gave this kind of flat, kind of even keel response to where I had to begin to learn to trust my own validation, my own sense of how I think it went and walk off and go, I can't rely on that director's play.
Guest:Because in a typical actor format, you're like, okay, he did a little chuckle.
Guest:You read however you think you did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And our manager just gave this real flat thing and it taught me to trust myself.
Guest:And I really, it was a good four years of that.
Marc:Right, well, it's about hijacking or at least pushing back on that voice that always tells you the same thing, right?
Marc:That it's not quite good enough or it wasn't quite right.
Marc:We put that voice inside of our head because it seems like we have a lot in common around this.
Marc:And the best explanation that I found for it, and I don't know if it'll help you.
Marc:No, please.
Marc:Was this I read this book called The Fantasy Bond by Robert Firestone.
Marc:That's a great title.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:But the idea is that, you know, when you're younger, if your parents are self-involved or they're, you know, emotionally selfish or negligent or even abusive, that when you feel uncomfortable as a very young person.
Marc:you can't blame your parents because they're your parents.
Marc:So you naturally blame yourself.
Marc:So you implement a dialogue, an inner parent that tells you you're bad, that you're not good enough, that clearly it can't be your parents, it's gotta be you, and that sticks in there.
Marc:And that works for me, but it sounds like your parents were supportive.
Guest:Did they give, one tool that this therapist gave me that I love in regards to that is,
Guest:If I'm, you know, feeling just, you know, the negative self-talk we do and just beat ourselves up.
Guest:And I think about if my daughter came to me and said, Hey dad, I'm feeling kind of low.
Guest:I'm feeling kind of stressed out, overwhelmed.
Guest:I would be like, honey, it's going to be okay.
Guest:I'd hold her.
Guest:I'd be like, Hey, we're in this together.
Guest:Let's do this.
Guest:However, I don't talk to myself that way.
Guest:And he's like beginning to talk to yourself as though you would to your daughter.
Guest:Right.
Guest:You know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I just, it's just, it's so habitual for me to be like, Tony, what an idiot.
Guest:Why would you do all this kind of stuff?
Guest:And that, but I would never say that to my daughter.
Guest:So self-parenting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Self-parenting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:In a healthy way.
Marc:No, it's great.
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Cause I had that thing the other night, I taped this special and we did two tapings.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And the first taping did not go well.
Marc:And I knew it was not, I knew I could hit better.
Marc:I knew it wasn't right.
Marc:But everyone around me, you know, director, executives are like, great, we got it.
Marc:And I'm like,
Marc:What the fuck are you talking about?
Guest:But I knew I was right.
Guest:Would you say you built that on the response you got or the inner kind of like, I knew I could do the turns better, I knew I could do the rhythms better?
Marc:No, it was just because it was a different type of theater.
Marc:We did it at the Red Cat Theater, which is a black box theater, which is kind of a sparse, intense place.
Marc:And I was too, like I wanted to hit everything right.
Marc:So I was too kind of in it.
Marc:It was felt too rehearsed.
Marc:The audience, it was seven on a Wednesday.
Marc:And they were just, they were entertained, but I couldn't get a role going.
Marc:And I knew that.
Marc:And so going into the second one, either I could have went like, I'm fucked.
Marc:I'm just fucked all night.
Marc:Or I'm like, dude, how are you going to stay open?
Marc:How are you going to show up for this?
Marc:How are you going to make this happen?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How are you going to get over this hump?
Guest:Right.
Marc:And luckily the audience, I heard them with the opener.
Marc:I was like, no, they're okay.
Marc:They're better.
Marc:They're more responsive.
Guest:I have such admiration for standup.
Guest:I really do.
Guest:It's like, man, just what you guys get and then able to say, all right, moving on.
Marc:Uh, yeah.
Marc:I just knew that if I walked away from that second show with that same feeling, I would, but now like I did it and I'm like, it's over.
Marc:I've been working a year and a half on that material and it's almost like a relief.
Marc:A year and a half.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And like, you know, I didn't even, uh, it doesn't matter.
Marc:So how do you get from Tallahassee?
Marc:Like how do you, where do you, so you pursue theater?
Marc:How does it work?
Guest:So I studied, yeah, I loved theater in Tallahassee.
Guest:In high school.
Guest:In high school.
Guest:And then going to college, I didn't know if I could make a career out of it.
Guest:So I studied journalism.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Which that's like a dying art.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But were you interested in that?
Guest:Um...
Guest:I was more in the mass communications part of journalism because I think I told them I liked people just because I didn't know if I could make a career off acting.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I did that for four years, had a great experience at college.
Guest:In journalism.
Guest:In journalism in Alabama at the school called Samford.
Guest:Alabama.
Guest:Birmingham, Alabama.
Marc:We shot there.
Marc:That's a great town, really.
Guest:What did you shoot?
Marc:The Lynn Shelton movie, Sword of Trust.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:We did two weeks there.
Guest:I love Birmingham.
Marc:Yeah, there's something about it, huh?
Guest:I love it.
Guest:Anyways, I did that, and then after that, I was like, well, let me dip my toe back into this acting thing.
Guest:and in 1995, I moved to New York, and I didn't know anybody.
Guest:Right after college?
Guest:No.
Guest:Right after college, I went back home for a year, and then I actually studied in Virginia a little bit.
Guest:Acting?
Guest:Acting, just to kind of really- In Virginia?
Marc:How do you get to Virginia?
Marc:You go back home to Tallahassee, and then-
Guest:I went back to him to Tallahassee.
Guest:I heard about the school in Virginia.
Guest:And honestly, I just needed a space.
Guest:I had a lot of anxiety getting back into acting.
Guest:I think I just had this, if I'm, to be honest, which you're very good at the honesty stuff, I remember having a panic attack in high school during a show.
Guest:And I thought it was an asthma attack and it was a panic attack.
Guest:Oh, it's the worst.
Guest:You couldn't breathe and you're like, I couldn't breathe that.
Guest:And I didn't know what was happening.
Guest:And then after that, I think that was a large part of not wanting to invest in acting in college.
Guest:In addition, did not know I could make a career out of it.
Guest:And so after college, I was like, I don't know if I'm ready to like make the jump.
Guest:So then I started doing the Virginia just to get back on stage, just to kind of see if, you know, I could get past this anxiety.
Marc:Was it like before you went out there, like before the show, or when did it happen?
Guest:It was during a show, Little Abner, during a high school show, during a song, Jubilation T Kornpone.
Guest:And I just all of a sudden couldn't breathe.
Guest:And I remember rushing off stage to get my inhaler, taking it and not working, and being like, what's going on with my body?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I remember also in college having panic attacks.
Guest:I remember being on this bus going to this retreat and having this feeling of like, wait, we're in a bus in the mountains.
Guest:If I have something happens, there's no place to go like that kind of like neurosis.
Guest:And at that time, panic attacks were not, you know, talked about.
Guest:No one really knew what was going on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Since then I've been able to do a lot of cognitive behavioral therapy kind of stuff, which I really love.
Guest:But not the breathe in the bag thing.
Guest:Back then they were like, what's going on?
Guest:And so it was just so much fear because you're like, wait, I know, because you'd always get like, you're fine.
Guest:Like there's nothing wrong with you.
Guest:And you're like, okay, but my body feels like it's shutting down.
Guest:I went to the doctor a lot in college.
Marc:Oh yeah, it's awful.
Marc:Mine was always my hands and feet are tingling.
Guest:Tingling, yeah.
Guest:And also your vision gets very narrow.
Guest:Yeah, blurry.
Guest:You never feel like you're gonna get over that breath.
Guest:Oh, it's the worst.
Guest:I haven't had the breathing one in a while.
Guest:Man, I'm so grateful for therapy.
Guest:Anyway, so after that, I still wanted to do this acting thing, but just this anxiety was keeping me from it.
Marc:But you had anxiety about everything.
Marc:But it usually is triggered by your brain getting into an existential dread mode.
Guest:I think if I'm honest, it was my anxiety at the end of high school, in college.
Guest:You can temper and keep those situations anxiety at a point.
Guest:level.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then your body says, I got to react to this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, this is, you're keeping a lid on stuff that you can't keep a lid on anymore and your body starts, you know, bubbling over and that's what was happening.
Guest:You mean mentally?
Guest:I think mentally, family stuff, you know, personal stuff, just kind of like, you know, there's addiction in my family, all this kind of stuff and just like,
Guest:You know, different stuff that you just kind of, you can kind of keep a happy face on and then your body starts reacting to it.
Marc:Oh, so you grew up like, you know, you were the kid who was, you know, keeping it all together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think kind of like, yeah.
Guest:And trying to make everybody happy.
Guest:Yes, and very, yeah.
Marc:Even knowing that things were not right.
Guest:Yeah, which a lot of kids do.
Marc:Of course.
Marc:There's only a couple ways to go with that.
Marc:Either you become an addict or whatever, or you're the other guy.
Marc:Hey, everybody.
Guest:And I was very much the performer.
Guest:Right, right.
Guest:And I was good at it.
Guest:You become all things to all people.
Marc:Yeah, I just talked to John Goodman about this.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Very, very similar trip.
Marc:Real people-pleasing, very hard on himself.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Still.
Guest:And the cool thing about life, as you know, is...
Guest:Kid deals with anxiety, all things to all people.
Guest:It's neat how shit can turn into productive things.
Marc:Yeah, for sure, but this is exactly what I'm talking about.
Marc:If you don't have that, if whatever it is, and you can be vague about it to pretend whatever, but I mean, whatever it is, you're not getting the sort of closure, the sort of consistent kind of grounded closure you need from the parents, right?
Marc:So your brain's just sort of like,
Guest:well why am I uncomfortable then it can't be them and you know you've got to manage yeah and they're you know they're doing their best because they they they you know everybody they didn't have the foundation they needed sure um but yeah it's but when you're a kid yeah exactly you don't you can't understand that you don't understand it you don't have the tools to know how to manage it yeah all you know is survival mode yeah
Guest:And when you get the kind of gratification of whether it be an audience or, hey, if I'm this way to this person, they're going to like me.
Guest:I mean, they're also the biggest assholes from high school and yet still wanting them to like me.
Marc:I know.
Guest:Believe me, I know.
Guest:It's like a dog returning to its vomit.
Guest:You're like, what is going on?
Guest:Going back to the scene of the crime to reenact it over and over again.
Guest:But that's the level of need where you're just like, oh my God, if you like me, then maybe I'll have, you know, all that kind of crazy stuff.
Marc:I can't even figure out what it is.
Marc:Like, there's something about Charming Monsters
Marc:Yeah, that's a great way to put it.
Marc:It makes you feel safe for a minute.
Guest:And even in this business, there's that sense of subconsciously going, oh, if that person sees me a certain way, and then you have to step away and go, wow, why am I giving this person power?
Guest:Oh, it all comes back to childhood.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Marc:And also, you start to realize, and I realized late, but I do realize it, that all these people are fucking broken weirdos themselves.
Guest:We're all broken weirdos.
Marc:I know, and it's just sort of like, in that moment where you're thinking, I need approval, you don't see them as a person anymore.
Marc:There's some other thing going on.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:There's a huge transference happening.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I don't always understand it.
Marc:But as a funny person, like in high school, you can sort of broker between all clicks because you're funny.
Marc:But there's always that kind of weird moment that I started to feel, which is like, all right, so I got all these monsters laughing, but it still feels like I'm just one line away from getting my ass kicked.
Yeah.
Guest:I've got all these monsters laughing.
Guest:Oh, that's so good.
Guest:That is so good.
Guest:And in the moment you're like, I got the monsters laughing.
Guest:I got them.
Guest:Or at least I got the monsters to invite me to their party.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's like, why?
Guest:And then across the board, I even do this, you know, as a parent, I'm sure, or I'll probably do this more, but like, why do you want to be at that monstrous party?
Guest:I don't want to be at the monster party.
Guest:I want to be invited to the monstrous party.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Guest:You know, it's like, I want to be accepted by the monsters.
Marc:But it's because we think the monsters have their shit together more than we do somehow.
Marc:At least they're just monsters.
Marc:They don't think about the sad kid.
Marc:No, yeah.
Marc:And they're in survival mode as well.
Marc:I guess, but it just seems a lot more together.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, cut to everybody's Instagram with a together picture and nobody's together.
Guest:Oh, it's the worst.
Marc:It's like just a never-ending cry for help on all platforms.
Marc:I can't fucking take it.
Marc:I know people that post like nine Instagrams a day.
Marc:I'm like, dude, this is getting sad.
Marc:It's getting...
Guest:And it's like, it's, yeah, it's a highlight reel.
Guest:I mean, I'm on it myself.
Marc:I'm on it, but like, I forget to do it.
Marc:When you pull away a little bit and you start to look at the people you know and how much they're posting, they're like, wait, are you doing anything with your life?
Marc:I mean, are all you thinking about is the next tweet or the next thing?
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, I'll be in conversations with someone and be thinking about the next thing.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:I gotta put that up there.
Guest:That'd be good.
Guest:Or just like what I'm doing next.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not in this conversation.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:Now I feel like I am, but.
Marc:But how do you survive?
Marc:Look, I was a drug guy where I would create sort of identities for myself involuntarily.
Marc:But once it became the angry drunk guy, that lasted a good long time.
Marc:But there was definitely different sort of hair and facial hair configurations, different outfits.
Marc:But I really, if you watch my history on Conan O'Brien, you can just see a history of outfits of a guy who never quite landed on it.
Marc:Sure, yeah, yeah.
Marc:But like, how did you get through?
Guest:God, I love that.
Guest:I love that question because I think I medicated with identities.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I think in high school, I had my own like quirky, funny.
Guest:At high school, I was one person.
Guest:At the theater, I was one person.
Guest:And again, you know, nobody's fault but my own.
Guest:Like I was just creating this idea.
Guest:And then I went to this Baptist school.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And if I'm honest, I came into that going, all right, I'm going to step into this Southern khaki wearing Christian man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that'll be my identity.
Guest:And I did for four years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And honestly, I think God had, you know, he probably, you know, my faith is very important to me.
Guest:And I think through that, he began to reveal himself to me.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:Um, and I was like, you know, it's like I could maintain that kind of facade for so long.
Guest:And then I just, the shit fell apart and I was like, I'm a disaster.
Guest:And that's where God, my higher power stepped in.
Guest:And it's like, I'm here for your disaster.
Guest:I'm not here for this cookie cutter Christian image, you know, pastel shirt wearing whatever.
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:And he stepped in, you know, and he let you off the hook.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:And he still lets me off the hook.
Guest:But it's like, I'm Stephen, you know, even moving to LA.
Guest:I came from New York and I'd never been on a studio lot.
Guest:I'd never had that much free food in my life.
Guest:You know, I was just like, what's going on?
Guest:And then I kind of stepped into that identity.
Guest:And then I realized, okay, let me break that down and just try to be more myself and all that kind of stuff.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's hard.
Marc:You can hear me on this show.
Marc:If I'm talking to Mel Brooks, I will become old and Jewish within minutes.
Guest:Look, I mean, because to get Mel Brooks to like you, there's that part in us that's, I mean, I even probably walk away from this going, well, I don't know, was that good?
Guest:Did Mark like me?
Guest:He's such a cool guy.
Guest:He's funny.
Guest:He's smart.
Guest:You know, it's like, I wonder what he's thinking about me.
Guest:You know, everybody plays that narrative in their head.
Guest:Do they?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I think if we're, maybe, you know, I can't say everybody, but it's like most of the people I know
Guest:There's always these certain figures in their life that they really want to be approved by, they want to be seen by, and they will gravitate towards those... It's so much... I fight it now, though.
Marc:I will not... There are some times...
Marc:like i had a hostess of this thing the other night you know flea has that and like you know those guys the chili peppers they're like a whole other level of like you know alphas you know not your classic jock monsters but you know jock with the rock and roll like there's a whole bunch of layers to it and every time i've met anthony kiedis i i turn into a high school kid i'm like
Marc:hey what's hey hi like i'm fighting totally and it's not even that i love the guy or that like i love the music but he's just one of those dudes where i just turn into like such a fucking you know like insecure even though your soul wants to be grounded wants to be normal around him wants to be organic it's yeah it's like it's a fucking nightmare and i hate him for it yeah
Guest:And I mean, he's probably around a ton of people like that.
Marc:He doesn't give a shit.
Guest:He's got his own shit, but I'm sure.
Marc:Of course, he wrote a whole book about it.
Guest:You can see it.
Marc:It's all out in the open.
Marc:But we're different types of dudes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And there is sort of like, I don't buy into the whole alpha beta myth, but I do buy into, there are dudes that gravitate to a certain thing.
Marc:They've got their own sensitivities.
Marc:They're dealing with their problems in a certain way.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But there is a kind of like, for some reason, when somebody is effectively, you know, confident and cool, I really think is what it comes down to.
Marc:It's just sort of like, how is he so confident and cool?
Marc:It's a confidence thing, now that I really think about it.
Marc:Like, you know, he's not sitting there going like, am I okay?
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Is he not though?
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:I don't see it.
Marc:I mean, he probably is.
Marc:I think everybody is.
Marc:I guess, but this is so much work to think about.
Guest:Because, I mean, not to get mad at him, but it's like if you really sit down and go, oh, we're spinning on a planet.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:No, but here's the thing.
Guest:We are all trying to pretend live a normal on Earth.
Guest:managing life, knowing that we're going to die in how many years.
Guest:It's like everybody to an extent is walking around trying to maintain some kind of a normal amidst a crazy uncertainty.
Marc:Right, exactly.
Marc:And denial of that.
Marc:Most of what we do is to aid in the denial of that uncertainty and the kind of inevitability of our mortality.
Marc:I found myself on stage talking about being on statins.
Marc:you know, for my cholesterol.
Marc:And like, right when you bring up stuff like that publicly, like I got a little stuff in my heart and I'm on the statins, I can feel the room go, ooh, and I'm like, you all have heart disease.
Marc:Every one of you, if you don't have heart disease, you're gonna have cancer.
Marc:One or the other.
Marc:Something is going to happen.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:This is not the greatest thing for the middle of a comedy show.
Marc:I just want to make sure we all know we're dying.
Marc:But what a wake up.
Marc:I guess.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe with that perspective, maybe I'll treat somebody else a little different.
Marc:Well, I'm trying to integrate and accept the inevitability.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So you go-
Marc:So you go to New York, a Christian khaki wearing pink, I left the khakis behind.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:But yeah, I went in 1995, moved to New York, didn't know anybody.
Guest:Just to be an actor?
Guest:Just to pursue acting, yeah.
Marc:Were you going to do a class?
Guest:I don't think I was at a place where I was like, I'm an actor.
Guest:I was like, all right, I'm going to try this out, pursue it.
Guest:I didn't know if I can label myself.
Marc:But you moved out of the Southern Jesus thing.
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes, Jesus was still with me, but it's like I moved out of that world.
Guest:Jesus came, but not the pants.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:So, and I didn't know anybody.
Guest:My first, I remember, I don't know if you remember backstage.
Guest:Yeah, sure, the paper.
Guest:The paper, I looked at backstage.
Guest:My first show was Shakespeare in the parking lot.
Guest:I did Tamey of the Shrew in a parking lot in the East Village.
Guest:I started every job under the sun.
Guest:I went from like sublet to sublet.
Guest:But then I started doing commercials.
Marc:But no classes?
Guest:I did do classes.
Guest:The first class I did, it was a two-year program.
Guest:I won't say the name.
Guest:Why?
Guest:Was that bad?
Guest:Well, the teacher was one of those arrogant drama teachers that everybody's walking on eggshells around.
Guest:Who?
Guest:I'm not going to say his name.
Marc:Maybe I was taking the class though.
Guest:No, you might have.
Guest:We'll talk off air.
Guest:But it's like, I don't want to- Is he still around?
Guest:No, he's not still around.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't want to do that.
Guest:All right.
Guest:But he was a good teacher, but he didn't create a very safe space to me.
Guest:Everybody was like, oh God, I want him to like me and look at me, look at me.
Guest:And so then I went to the Barrow Group and they, to me, I'd come from this place that everything was like, oh my gosh, your work is amazing.
Guest:Your work, like Tony, find your work.
Guest:Everything was so intense.
Guest:And the Barrow Group brought back this idea of play.
Guest:What was the Barrow Group?
Guest:This just great theater program that Seth Barish and his wife created.
Guest:Seth Barish, I know that name.
Guest:Yeah, he directed Michael.
Guest:Birbiglia shows.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And just like, it just kind of let go of this whole heavy work mentality that a lot of these acting.
Marc:Right, the old failed method guy and his cult.
Guest:Yeah, and not to say that, I mean, yes, it is work, but it was nice to reintroduce this idea of play and, hey, let's let go of a lot of stuff.
Marc:What was the process?
Marc:I think it was just like... Because the other guy was probably just, what, scene studies and monologues and you'd get a partner in the class.
Guest:I think it was just that, but even the communication of it, just like, find it and where are you and da-da-da, and it's like, oh...
Guest:You're not here and you need to be here.
Guest:And it's all this kind of like, good God, I'm just trying to... And rather than like, hey, let's just let stuff go and just kind of try to be there.
Guest:And this is like your playground and you're stepping into this character, you're stepping into the story.
Guest:Just kind of like see what happens, you know?
Guest:And also they did one technique, which I always appreciated.
Guest:Like if I was doing a monologue, they would be like, all right, let's have a...
Guest:let's just have a conversation before you start.
Guest:And it was like, we would just have a conversation, and then you go into the monologue.
Guest:Rather than like, I'm stepping into a monologue, all of a sudden my speech changes, I get stiff.
Guest:He's just kind of like, hey, let's just organically get into it.
Marc:Right, so it's interesting though, because it seems from looking at the work, you weren't a comedy guy,
Marc:per se.
Guest:No, I wasn't.
Guest:I did sketch comedy in New York, but- With who?
Guest:I was never, this group called King Baby, and it was with this guy named Todd Wilkerson, Susan Isaacson, at the time Jeannie Noth, who's now Jeannie Gaffigan, Jim Gaffigan's wife.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And we just did, we did sketches, and it was really fun.
Guest:Oh, you were with that?
Guest:But I never did improv or anything like that.
Guest:No stand-up.
Guest:No stand-up.
Marc:But you just were going to be an actor.
Guest:Yeah, and I did mainly commercials.
Guest:I was kind of the guy, my type was like, he's kind of checked out.
Guest:Didn't you do a big commercial?
Guest:I did a commercial, the Volkswagen Mr. Roboto one.
Guest:And I really enjoyed it because the commercials I did were pretty funny.
Guest:And I wasn't just standing behind a side of a car.
Guest:They were funny.
Guest:And so I really enjoyed it.
Guest:And when did you, what was the first break?
Guest:In 2003, it took me many years to find an agent or somebody to send me out for TV and film because I was kind of labeled a commercial actor.
Marc:Oh, so that was your thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But those guys always have a run.
Marc:You're the guy in all the commercials for a year or two.
Guest:Yeah, and I was very grateful for that run because I could knock off some of those odd jobs.
Guest:Like which jobs?
Guest:Man, I temped everywhere.
Guest:I remember passing out flyers in Bryant Park a lot.
Guest:I cater waited.
Guest:I actually really liked cater waiting because I hated waiting tables because people got so obnoxious about food.
Guest:But cater waiting, you just put the same food down and you didn't have to talk to the people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then you'd get like 20 bucks an hour.
Marc:These are actor jobs.
Guest:Yeah, they're actor jobs.
Marc:And you're doing theater all the way through?
Guest:Yeah, like showcases and stuff you found in backs.
Guest:Not like Off-Broadway or Broadway stuff, but mainly commercials.
Guest:And then 2003, years before that, a couple managers and agents were kind enough to start sending me out, people I met through commercials.
Guest:And then the audition for Arrested Development came around.
Guest:And I remember reading the script and being like, oh, I really like this.
Guest:Because it reminded me of Christopher Guest stuff.
Guest:Like I loved Christopher Guest.
Guest:And got a call back.
Guest:And then I remember I shot the pilot out right when I got the call back.
Guest:I flew out to LA, shot the pilot.
Guest:And then I have a specific memory of running out of underwear.
Guest:And I had to go to Old Navy to get underwear.
Guest:And that's literally one of the only memories I have.
Guest:Which is obviously trauma related.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't remember because I think I was so detached of just all the, you know, I was so overwhelmed.
Marc:Yeah, I have, yeah.
Marc:It's weird that those are the memories.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I don't have underwear.
Guest:I don't have enough underwear.
Guest:I need to go to, where's an old Navy?
Guest:That's my focus.
Guest:I need to find an old Navy.
Marc:But you know what I've learned over time with myself is that that stuff is grounding, dude.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:You know, that's an attempt at, you know, sort of like taking care of yourself.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember going while we were shooting the pilot, I remember specifically going to dinner with Michael Cera and his mother to like, I think we went to like a cheesecake factory.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And I didn't really know anybody.
Guest:And I was just like, I just remember sitting in the cheesecake factory being like, okay.
Guest:And having a conversation about kind of like, this is crazy.
Guest:And Michael was new and I was new and his mom, Linda was really sweet.
Guest:And
Guest:Like those kind of, I have those kind of pockets of memories.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so, but had you done some film stuff before that?
Guest:I did like little bits on The Sopranos.
Guest:I was a nurse oncologist on The Sopranos and I was a photographer's assistant on Sex and the City named Tiger.
Marc:Now, did you find, so before Arrested Development, you didn't do any kind of, like you didn't seem to have enough screen time to do any real character work.
Guest:Yeah, mainly that in class.
Guest:Like I would kind of do that kind of stuff in class.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because as time went on, even after Arrested Development, it seems like you were able, you can play serious, you can do, and this isn't a question that I was mad at myself for not asking John Goodman.
Marc:In the same way, given that, you know, being hard on himself and having this anxiety, but being great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is there, outside of getting a laugh or outside of, like, is there a tremendous amount of relief involved in creating a character or getting lost in a character?
Marc:Because I find with stand-up, it's really one of the only places I can be actively present because I don't have a choice.
Marc:And if I'm not present there, I'm in trouble.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So when you're acting or lost in something, and I know TV works different because it's a lot of stopping and starting, but you do have to be present and engage.
Guest:You do have to be present.
Guest:Those moments, if I'm honest, are few and far between because if I get into a rhythm like with Julia on Veep or something like that when I got into those, I definitely would get lost in that.
Guest:But for the most part in TV, I'm very aware of the stopping and the starting, all the crew.
Guest:I would say I just did this thing, this blacklist reading on Saturday night, and we read a script.
Guest:And being on stage, I can relate to your stand-up, it really forces you to be present and ride that wave is...
Guest:There really is a joy of being present on stage that I miss.
Guest:Yeah, because you can feel the audience.
Guest:You can feel the audience.
Guest:I'm doing a play in San Francisco in January called Wakey Wakey, and I'm both terrified but really looking forward to that kind of those moments again.
Guest:Where'd that come from?
Guest:It's a play this guy named Will Eno directed.
Guest:It premiered in New York.
Marc:Will Eno, that guy.
Guest:Yeah, he did know that guy.
Guest:He's really gifted, and they did the play with Michael Emerson in New York years ago and wanted to bring it to the American Conservatory Theater in San Francisco and asked if I would do it.
Guest:Tim Simons knew Will Eno really well, who was on Veep.
Guest:And I was, you know, at first I was like, oh, I haven't done theater in so long, but I really love it.
Guest:Like I really love it.
Guest:And I'm just kind of taking it day to day.
Guest:I'm excited, but I'm just like, you're in rehearsals.
Guest:I start the day after Christmas.
Guest:And is it a comedy?
Guest:It's like, yeah, both.
Guest:And it's practically a one man show.
Guest:There's a character, a nurse character that comes in halfway through.
Guest:And the one man show would be you.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And now, obviously, working with that crew on Arrested Development, you guys became kind of a family a bit, right, over time?
Marc:I came up with Dave.
Marc:I know Dave really well.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I love David Cross.
Guest:He's a very sweet man.
Marc:Very.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:If he lets you in, he's very sweet.
Marc:He's a very sweet man.
Marc:He's a father now.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I used to, like, back in the day, like, when I was in between houses when we were doing comedy in Cambridge, I used to stay at his, like, I didn't have a house for some reason.
Marc:And I was sleeping on their couch.
Marc:He lived with three other guys.
Marc:But when he was at his girlfriend's, I could sleep in his bed.
Marc:I mean, like, I have a real history with this.
Marc:Dave.
Guest:When we were shooting, I guess this last season for Rested, I held his baby on set, and she's a sweet little angel.
Guest:Him and Amber Tamblyn.
Marc:Yeah, I'm so surprised, you know, because he was... I have not talked to him enough as a father.
Marc:I haven't seen him in a while, but he's... But I'm sure it softened him.
Guest:It's impossible not to.
Guest:Yeah, I don't have any of the kids.
Guest:That's one thing.
Guest:After it rested, I had my daughter in 2006 after it was canceled.
Guest:And one big way in for this whole kind of waking up to being present thing for me was having a daughter because it's like you had to keep them alive.
Guest:So I was like, I got to be present here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you had a wife too.
Guest:We have a wife.
Guest:Yes, I had a wife.
Guest:But it was just like when you're with her, it's like you can't be checked out.
Guest:You don't want to drop them or put them on the stove.
Guest:Yeah, that's a good call.
Yeah.
Guest:When did you get married?
Guest:In New York?
Guest:I got married in 2003, the same year the show got picked up.
Guest:So 10 days before we got married, the show got picked up.
Marc:And where'd you know that girl from?
Marc:That lady.
Guest:We met at this church.
Guest:There's this group that my friend Kathy Karbowski and I started
Guest:called The Haven, which kind of sounds like a cult, but in New York.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It was kind of a lot of people whose faith was important to them, artists, and we would just kind of both encourage each other, see each other's work, and then also we would do a lot of, we would try to plan a lot of service projects just to kind of get our eyes off ourselves.
Guest:Help the community kind of thing?
Guest:Help the community and like, you know, in this business, you're selling yourself.
Guest:So just to force you to get your eyes off yourself.
Guest:Like what kind of service?
Guest:We would make apple pies for Thanksgiving for this shelter.
Guest:Is the allergies kicking in?
Guest:No, I'm okay.
Guest:I'm good with water.
Guest:As my throat slowly starts closing on the microphone.
Guest:I remember we would make these Valentine heart wreaths for these people in the hospital that were infected by AIDS and all these things just to kind of do stuff outside ourselves.
Marc:Get out of yourselves.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because it seems that to be outwardly Christian in our business is not something you hear a lot about.
Marc:You hear sort of non-specific spirituality.
Marc:You hear atheism or agnosticism.
Marc:But sort of proud Christians who are not weirdos, I would imagine there was sort of like a cloistering sort of thing.
Marc:Like, okay, we've got us.
Marc:Was that compelled by that?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't remember that.
Guest:I mean, I think if I'm growing up, I think the faith community is very much like that.
Guest:It's like, you know, we huddle down, you know, all that kind of stuff.
Guest:And it's a bummer because the more...
Guest:I think with The Haven, there was a recognition of like, we're all a mess, you know?
Guest:And we, this is, God is a source of strength for us, but it's, I don't know, the more that you don't own your own mess, I think then you do more set yourself apart of like,
Guest:But like everybody, like I think when we own our mess, the bridges are created.
Guest:Conversations are created.
Guest:You know, many people I'm obviously throughout my business.
Guest:I know many people in different faiths and different beliefs.
Marc:I think if you're not proselytizing or you don't think you know better than others or you're not consumed by delusional profits.
Guest:And I would even say proselytizing is like, I mean, if somebody asks my story, it's who I am, so I love to talk about it.
Guest:But when there's an agenda attached to that story, I think that's when the proselytizing kicks in.
Marc:Right, right, right.
Marc:So your relationship with Jesus has evolved and changed over the years.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's, yeah, I mean, it's for me, it is I, knowing that he is with me and sees a bigger picture than I do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:His ways are higher than my ways.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I fall apart with him.
Guest:He encourages me, I mean, to forgive when I don't want to forgive.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:For my own healing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think this is the challenge, and I get it, is everybody has such a different history with faith.
Guest:And so when someone hears when my faith is important to me, I understand that's colored by everybody's different experience to that.
Guest:And even it is frustrating.
Guest:You look at the political environment and how the faith community is attached to...
Guest:Trump, it's challenging because I'm like, hey, the faith Jesus I follow says the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.
Guest:That's the fruit of somebody following God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And when I don't see one of those in a figure that my community is attached to.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's upsetting.
Guest:I'm saying I'm working on two or three of those on a good day, but when it's hard to not find one of those and my community is attached to that.
Marc:There's a schism within the community, I think, isn't there?
Guest:I mean, there's definitely two camps.
Guest:Oh, there's definitely two camps, but it's something that's when I kind of fall back.
Guest:I don't...
Guest:I think the older I get, I don't know if you're like this, I don't know people's story.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I can't speak into why somebody is following that man.
Guest:I don't know their journey.
Guest:I know for me, it's tricky.
Guest:Not even tricky.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:And I have questions, but I don't know.
Guest:I think the older I get, I'm like, I...
Guest:I can't put out their narrative of why they're doing that.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I know for me, that's not a figure that I want to follow.
Guest:Why you're not.
Guest:Why I'm not.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yes, yes, yes.
Marc:And within the faith umbrella.
Guest:Within the faith umbrella.
Guest:Cool.
Marc:And I'm sure on some policy level as well.
Guest:Because, yeah, and it's, yes, 100%.
Guest:And it's also everybody, they're...
Guest:well i don't want to go on a tangent but it's like there's no bridges of conversation being built between these two sides right and i don't within the faith community or within republicans and democrats i think with republicans delegates and the faith community i think it's like nobody everybody is so terrified to um for fear if they give an inch then the other person is they're gonna you know take something like so
Marc:Yeah, it's become like sports.
Guest:It's weird.
Guest:Nobody wants to just talk and engage, and I hope that I can engage.
Guest:I mean, I have family members that are on that other side, and we're forced.
Guest:We engage, and you have to engage, and just to hear where they're coming from.
Guest:Does it get ugly?
Guest:There's things you avoid, but...
Guest:I have to see the whole person rather than the things that they are supporting.
Marc:Isn't that weird when you like somebody and you're like, I know if I just say one sentence, it's going to be a problem.
Guest:Yeah, it is.
Guest:And is it worth, and to me, it's for peace and for a bigger conversation, is it worth saying that sentence?
Guest:Because here's the fact, and you know this as well as I do, I'm not going to change anybody's mind.
Guest:Something does, though, sometimes.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:If I say stuff, I don't know if I'm changing anybody's mind.
Guest:All we're doing is just screaming.
Marc:But I'm not saying that we can change somebody's mind necessarily.
Marc:But you read about or hear about these moments.
Marc:I know in my own heart, my own moments, where you've held hard and fast to something because of your own fear, resentment, or injury.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And then some weird passing event melts it away.
Marc:Like something happens where you see things totally different in a moment.
Guest:But isn't that your own personal experience of changing that mindset rather than something that's been told to you?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:But I mean, you read about these moments of racists all of a sudden having a come to Jesus moment around the fault of how they're seeing it.
Marc:And like you can't manufacture those things, but they do happen.
Marc:There are sort of weird things.
Marc:I know a lot of people right now have volunteered for a brain fucking that they're not going to recover from.
Marc:But there are moments that happen on a one-on-one human level that I think really kind of like, you know, change people because they all of a sudden they can let go of their brain.
Guest:But with that, that takes a dropping of the guard on both sides.
Guest:For them to each be vulnerable enough to be open to somebody else hearing this.
Guest:I can't force someone to be open to what I'm saying.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:They have to make that choice themselves.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Sometimes it's just a window.
Marc:Hey, look, they're crying.
Marc:I got an opportunity.
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, sure.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Did you find that doing Veep sort of gave you, you know, at least, you know, proximity wise or you're not saying that you were involved in a a very thorough and intelligent satire of our political system that was that somehow did that feel like you were doing something?
Marc:Did that feel like service?
Guest:Yeah, I mean, it changed.
Guest:Like I remember when I was doing Veep, I kind of loved, I love showing a slice of life, a little real slice of life of what might be happening behind the scenes.
Guest:rather than all we hear is the perfect speeches.
Guest:But like Washington- Not anymore.
Guest:Not anymore.
Guest:But like, it's like, you know, these people are, it's pressure cookers for massive decisions in the world.
Guest:So, you know, behind the scenes, people were losing their minds and being like, was that right?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Did I say the right thing?
Guest:So I liked showing that window of like the humanity behind the curtain, you know?
Guest:And then as I progressed, it was like,
Guest:OK, now there's already a satire happening on CNN.
Guest:You know, it was a very and then it kind of just became about ego.
Guest:And, you know, I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:It becomes impossible to parody now, because even even the most extreme satire is sort of like you're nostalgic for that amount of chaos.
Marc:At least there was an order to that chaos.
Marc:There was a respect for the institution.
Guest:However, I will say one, not to make it into a moral tale.
Guest:Julia always made fun of me for this.
Guest:But I think the big gratification I get from Veep, from doing Veep, is to me it's a beautiful picture of you reap what you sow.
Guest:Because Selena Meyer, she sowed her whole life, selfishness, arrogance, stabbing people in the back, all for herself.
Guest:And she reaped isolation.
Guest:She reaped a life of sadness and everybody left her.
Guest:And here's the deal.
Guest:When you sow that, that is what will happen.
Guest:And that's a huge bummer.
Guest:Like that's your legacy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And that's a bummer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And that, that is the way humanity works in a way.
Guest:And again, I'm speaking from a place I'm not perfect.
Guest:I've had entitled moments.
Guest:I've had arrogant moments, but I like, I hopefully I'm more aware of my, you know, or just, you know, having that awareness of like, Hey, maybe that's not the best choice to treat someone.
Guest:Like, let me say the right thing here.
Guest:Let me be kind here.
Guest:Let me, you know, it's like, cause that does reap a different fruit.
Marc:So your faith and the principles of it inform those moments of being present in your times of anxiety.
Marc:As somebody who has the faith, and you also struggle with this constant self-talk that's negative, that I would assume that at some point the relationship with God has got to step in there somehow.
Guest:It does, and I was just talking to a friend of mine this morning about, we were talking about our church that we go to,
Guest:And my favorite thing, this is what I love also about the Quaker church, they allow for these moments of silence.
Guest:You're in the Quaker church now?
Guest:No, I'm not now, but this is what I love about the Quaker service is they have these times of just silence where you're sitting and just quiet.
Guest:And one of my favorite things when I go to the church I go to is just sitting, before everybody goes, they're just sitting in the pews and knowing I'm not alone.
Guest:And it's that sense of how he sees me, how he created me, just feeling safe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And having that foundation, it really strengthens me.
Guest:And you grew up with it all the way through, or did it come later?
Guest:I think, yeah, I did.
Guest:I did.
Guest:It was not, I would say, for lack of a better way of saying, like a personal faith.
Guest:It was more of a social faith.
Guest:It was like going to church.
Guest:But it was always there.
Guest:It was always there, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Now, the relationship with Julia and the comedic dynamic, how did it start and how did it evolve over the arc of the thing?
Marc:Because it's so unique, that pairing, that comedy team of you and her.
Marc:It seems like it is so natural and so honestly symbiotic.
Marc:How did it start?
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:It was...
Guest:It's hard to put into words because it was such a joyful experience for me.
Marc:I think she's one of the best comedic actresses ever.
Guest:She's amazing.
Guest:And she's also... I was in such close proximity to her all the time.
Guest:I grabbed all the subtlety that she gave.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think it was...
Guest:I don't know, we kind of, on a very personal level, we became very good friends.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so I think it's that really, there was a ground, there was a respect there, there was a value for each other.
Guest:There was a trust where if you throw something out, you know that they're going to throw it back.
Guest:And also if something didn't sit right, if it was like, yeah, this doesn't feel right, it wasn't met with like, no, it's fine.
Guest:It's like, no, let's talk about it.
Guest:Let's get to the place where you feel comfortable.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And just looking at the description of the characters, she was such the mouth.
Guest:And I was described as a bitchy mime on the show.
Guest:So I couldn't even, I didn't even have a verbal.
Guest:I was all nonverbal.
Guest:In the script originally.
Guest:Just like Gary would say sometimes like moans or sounds.
Guest:And he was all facial expressions because she wouldn't let me speak.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So it was this really fun, like I had to create a language behind her to be able to communicate that.
Guest:And then she just, I don't know, just that energy of her putting me down and me worshiping her, having a blindness to the way she treated me.
Guest:I just, it's like to step in, to know that's not your life and to step into that kind of dysfunction on a play way is so much fun.
Guest:Like in life, because, you know, as you know, the base of comedy is very sad.
Guest:Like you look at the family of rest development, you look at the people in Veep, they're atrocious human beings.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it's to step into that kind of dysfunction and to play in it and to give yourself that permission, it's just nothing better.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And so you guys were friends, so you were with her through the health crisis and everything?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:She doing okay?
Guest:She's doing great.
Guest:Oh, that's great.
Guest:She's really doing great.
Guest:And she, man, she has a perseverance to her that is really, just really impressive.
Guest:Yeah, I love her.
Marc:I don't know anybody who is as consistently- She's been on here, right?
Marc:Yeah, consistently funny.
Marc:Before she got the cancer, though, I haven't talked to her since then.
Marc:But so consistently and so unpurposely funny than her.
Marc:Maybe Ferrell, Will Ferrell can do it as well.
Guest:And I think she takes every opportunity.
Guest:She didn't just, when a script came or whatever, she would look at it and sometimes we would stop and she's like, yeah, this doesn't, we need to mush this up.
Guest:Like this, it's always that sense.
Guest:And her and I, when we would get on set, I mean, the writers, Dave and all them work so hard, but-
Guest:It was like, okay, how can we bump this up physically?
Guest:So like you drop your coat, I'll catch it, you do this.
Guest:How can we bring some physicality into this?
Guest:Always amp it up.
Guest:Even when she was at award shows, it was like, if I do win or if I'm presenting, how can I make this the funniest thing?
Marc:She's a great physical comic, so it's all thought out.
Marc:You guys would sit there and orchestrate it?
Guest:Oh, yeah, always thought it out.
Guest:It had to be, because it was a very organized chaos.
Guest:There was one time, I don't remember what it was, but she was at a presidential, she had not been president anymore, and she was at a presidential museum, and there was a president's desk behind these ropes, and she goes and sits behind the desk, but she said, keep a watch out that nobody's looking.
Guest:And then somebody came, we had to jump over the banister, and then I had to catch her right before she fell on the floor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it looked very chaotic, but you really have to choreograph that kind of stuff.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And you won two Emmys for this.
Guest:I know, isn't that nuts?
Guest:That was really surprising.
Guest:But did you feel good?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, yeah, it's still very surreal to me.
Guest:I remember being nominated for the first time when I was and just being like, what the hell?
Guest:And that excitement, but then that terror of like, oh God, it felt pressure.
Guest:And I remember this therapist I was working with really encouraged me to be like, hey,
Guest:I know you want to check out during this or you want to minimize it just to get through it because it seems so larger than life.
Marc:Minimizing to get through.
Guest:Yeah, because it seemed too much energy.
Guest:So I wanted to, I think just in life, if there's two highs or two lows, you want to neutralize it because it's too much.
Guest:And he was like, I really want you to breathe and I want you to look around and I want you to, this is where I am and embrace it.
Guest:And since I did that, I remember it.
Guest:That's great.
Marc:Well, I think all those things you were just saying, too, about whatever you're thinking about, like leveling it.
Marc:I think a lot of it is to try to get ahead of it, control-wise.
Guest:Get ahead of it.
Guest:Because when you know, because of life and growing up, some things weren't safe, didn't feel safe.
Guest:And so you wanted to try to, how can I peacemake?
Guest:How can I stabilize the situation?
Guest:How can I take anything?
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:I'll just make the most negative projection so I can deal with that in my head and then I'm ready.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I don't want to get too excited because you don't know what's around the corner.
Marc:So it's like I got to stabilize it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It might take it away from me.
Marc:It drops on my foot.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Totally.
Marc:You still do a lot of like, you know, because you're so identified with comedy, but you do a lot of serious parts.
Marc:You've done a lot of things, but what are you hoping for now?
Marc:I mean, these animated projects are great.
Marc:What is Forky's?
Marc:Ask a question.
Marc:I saw the title, but I did not get the thing.
Guest:Yeah, so this character I did in Toy Story, Forky, he's a spork that's called Forky, because this little girl calls him a fork.
Guest:And he doesn't understand anything about the universe, and he just asks a lot of questions.
Guest:It's really a sweet, Toy Stories was a really sweet story because Woody comes along and the spork is like, listen, I'm here to help people eat chili and then I'm going to the trash.
Guest:That's my route.
Guest:And Woody's like, no, you're made for more than that.
Guest:You're made to be loved and to love.
Guest:And so now this little web series, he just goes around and asks a lot of questions.
Guest:He's like, what's cheese?
Guest:What's love?
Guest:What's a friend?
Guest:All that stuff.
Marc:Educational kid thing.
Guest:Yeah, and just in typical Pixar fashion, just very well done.
Marc:Very well done.
Marc:Well, that's great.
Marc:And what's your level of service these days?
Marc:Do you go talk to the kids?
Marc:Do you do any of that kind of stuff?
Guest:I do, actually, really.
Guest:I just talk to Pepperdine.
Guest:I really enjoy talking to students because you and I have had interesting experiences.
Guest:And I did get my dream, and I did learn a lot of lessons about being present.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And also the whole idea of fame I like to talk about.
Guest:I think we all want to be known and we look at fame as the ultimate being known.
Guest:But actually if you're known by people who love you and that's all the known you're ever going to need.
Guest:It's better.
Guest:Just because fame can be very isolating and all this kind of stuff.
Guest:But I think our society is still like, how many Instagram followers do you have?
Guest:How famous are you?
Guest:But fame is actually the opposite of what people, it's the opposite of being known.
Guest:Or being loved sometimes.
Guest:And being loved.
Guest:And I love talking about that.
Guest:Anyways, anytime I can help out, there's this great organization called International Justice Mission that fights human trafficking.
Guest:Oh, great.
Guest:I just love any time to give a voice to them because it's very easy to give a voice that are, you know,
Guest:just in our little world of stuff that's running, but like globally what's going on and children being trafficked and it's absolutely horrific and we just don't know about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, or we turn a blind eye to it.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:It's hard to, yeah, we're so consumed with all the shit coming out of us, out of, at us on a day-to-day basis.
Marc:It's hard to know.
Marc:And then when you do know, you're like, oh my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that was, that made me think of, I was telling this story the other day, but it's like, um,
Guest:Even in anxiety, when you can get your eyes off yourself, it is such a gift because years ago, also when I was doing Conan, I was about to step out and I felt the wave of panic come over me.
Guest:I was like, oh God, I have a choice here.
Guest:I'm either going to bolt or do something.
Guest:and there was these two guys standing by the curtain, and I just started asking them questions.
Guest:I was like, where are you from?
Guest:How long have you been doing this?
Guest:How long have you been a curtain guy?
Guest:How long have you been a curtain guy?
Guest:Just something.
Guest:And the curtains open, and I walked out.
Guest:And it's like, any time, it's such a gift to get your eyes off yourself because you just live in this headspace.
Guest:Believe me, why do you think I do this show?
Guest:I know.
Guest:And I was doing somebody else's podcast, and I was telling them, what a gift, not only to you, but like...
Guest:In addition to hearing other stories, but, like, man, just, like, to get your eyes.
Guest:What a gift to do that.
Marc:Get out of yourself.
Marc:Those guys at the curtain on Conan, I had a thing with them.
Marc:Because every time I'd be standing there, I'd always look at the one guy.
Marc:I forget his name.
Marc:I'd go, like, I got nothing.
Marc:So, like, it became this thing.
Marc:Like, I'd go there.
Marc:He'd go, like, what do you got?
Marc:Nothing.
Marc:Got nothing.
Guest:But wouldn't it be a cool documentary to tape that section right before somebody walks out, how people deal and manage anxiety.
Guest:Yeah, that moment was like, can I get a water?
Guest:Yeah, can I get a water?
Guest:Or just pace, or just start talking, or fixing clothes, or just like something.
Guest:Let me see the sheet.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, okay, okay.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:I understand when you hear those older actors have all the cards on the walls just to remember because it's like, you know, the older things just kind of leave you.
Guest:That's for sure.
Marc:I don't even know where we started with this thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:It's good talking to you though, man.
Marc:Really good talking to you.
Marc:Thanks for having me.
Marc:Thanks for coming.
Thank you.
Marc:That was Tony Hale.
Marc:I found that to be a very engaging and interesting conversation about a lot of things.
Marc:Faith, anxiety, parents.
Marc:I think you hear the depth.
Marc:Great.
Marc:What a great guy.
Marc:He is currently the voice of Forky in the show Forky Asks a Question for the new Disney Plus streaming service that launches tomorrow.
Marc:He also has an animated show that he co-created on Netflix called Archibald's Next Big Thing.
Marc:I was on there.
Marc:I'm the hermit crab for an episode.
Marc:Arrested Development, Veep, any other things that you love Tony in.
Marc:I was very happy to talk to him.
Marc:And now I will play my Stratocaster through the old amp and the Echoplex.
Marc:Just some dirty blues.
Marc:Redundant.
Marc:Three chords, motherfucker.
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Marc:Boomer lives.