Episode 1065 - Pamela Des Barres

Episode 1065 • Released October 24, 2019 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Guest:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:Alright, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fuckineers?

00:00:14Marc:What the fucksters?

00:00:15Marc:What's happening?

00:00:16Marc:I'm Mark Maron.

00:00:17Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.

00:00:20Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:21Marc:How's it going with you guys?

00:00:24Marc:I feel alright.

00:00:25Marc:You?

00:00:27Marc:You guys, I talked to Pamela DeBars today.

00:00:30Marc:She is the original, well, obviously not the original groupie, but she was part of the organized groupie situation.

00:00:38Marc:I don't know what you would call it.

00:00:40Marc:She has a podcast, Pamela DeBar's Pajama Party, and she writes a regular column for the Please Kill Me website.

00:00:48Marc:She was there back in the late 60s, man, doing the business with the fellas and just hanging out with... She's a world-famous...

00:00:58Marc:groupie I guess is what you would say and she had a lot of she had relationships with a lot of the the big musicians uh back in the day I'd always heard her name I'd met her once over at the Zappa house in that brief period of my life where I was dating a Zappa and uh I don't know it just we I decided why not talk to Pamela at the bars and we're doing it and so that's going to happen shortly I will be at the Masonic

00:01:23Marc:in san francisco this saturday day after tomorrow october 26th for the final stop on my tour before taping my special next week there are some tickets left at wtfpod.com slash tour also well you know i i you know not that this is going to be incentive uh for people to go see the show either you want to come see the show you don't uh my uh my buddy um luke schwartz

00:01:47Marc:Luke Schwartz, door guy from the comedy store, which is how I started, is going to come up there and open for me.

00:01:55Marc:Luke's a good guy, funny guy.

00:01:57Marc:And what else?

00:01:59Marc:Yeah, I've reloaded the merch store.

00:02:02Marc:We've put a bunch of new stuff in there at the WTF merch store.

00:02:05Marc:We got new shirts with the draplin design and metallic ink.

00:02:10Marc:We got a ringer tee, a ladies muscle tee.

00:02:13Marc:We got tumblers and water bottles and hats.

00:02:16Marc:But you can go to PodSwag.com slash WTF or click on merch at WTFPod.com.

00:02:24Marc:Going to San Francisco for the big show at the Masonic.

00:02:27Marc:As Masonic auditoriums always, you know, Masonic lodges, Masonic temples.

00:02:34Marc:I know there's a back room to this one.

00:02:35Marc:Some guy wrote me about it.

00:02:36Marc:But, you know, I'll let you know how that goes because I'm on the inside, folks.

00:02:41Marc:I don't know if you knew that about me.

00:02:42Marc:I'm on the inside.

00:02:43Marc:You know, I said, you know, I was just drawing to attention the fact that our president is a dirtbag.

00:02:49Marc:And sometimes, look, you know, it doesn't have to be deep.

00:02:52Marc:Oddly, and I know this cuts both ways, but sometimes it's very satisfying just to, you know, call people names.

00:03:01Marc:God knows he knows that.

00:03:03Marc:So, yeah, sometimes it just feels good to say President Dirtbag.

00:03:09Marc:But but because of some of my commentary that was immediately disregarded as commentary by the QAnon folks.

00:03:18Marc:But, you know.

00:03:20Marc:Look, if you want autocratic rule, if you want to bend the system into some sort of single party nightmare, if you want to, you know, there's a difference between having political differences and having different opinions on the other side and wanting the other side to be dead.

00:03:40Marc:But whatever commentary I made about the un-American people, some of them got riled up.

00:03:47Marc:I think some of them made some sort of mini film project about me.

00:03:51Marc:And, you know, it's been revealed, folks.

00:03:54Marc:that apparently I'm on the payroll of George Soros, and I'm actively working for Deep State, and somehow Barack Obama's involved in this scheme that involves me calling the president a scumbag and calling people that support this momentum that we're in now as being somewhat un-American.

00:04:18Marc:and uh i just want to say that uh you got me man you got me i you know we all get on the phone every morning there's a big conference call with everybody that works for uh soros and deep state uh soros isn't usually on the call but you know deep state representatives are usually calling from their secret phones and uh

00:04:40Marc:It's a big conference call with me and a lot of other liberal celebrities where we just get the talking points and we're told sort of, you know, what we're trying to do, which is obviously spread socialism throughout the country to the point where everyone's making the same amount of money and nobody has any freedom.

00:05:01Marc:So that's sort of, you know, that's a big job.

00:05:05Marc:You know, there's a lot of time on the phone and...

00:05:08Marc:And to be honest with you, the checks don't roll in.

00:05:11Marc:Deep State and Soros, not as organized as you think.

00:05:14Marc:The payroll, never on time, and it's never as much as you think it's going to be.

00:05:18Marc:But we're all so terrified all the time.

00:05:22Marc:If we don't say what they want us to say, that Soros and Deep State and Barack Obama, who does get on the phone occasionally with us to tell us what's up, are going to come down on us.

00:05:35Marc:So you caught me.

00:05:38Marc:And look, I'm just hoping my checks keep coming in from Deep State and from Soros.

00:05:44Marc:And I hope I don't get into trouble for revealing to you fucking dummies that, yeah, that you got me.

00:05:53Marc:I, Marc Maron, in my house doing my podcast where I talk to people in the creative business.

00:06:00Marc:And being paid by George Soros personally to call President Donald Trump a scumbag at least, you know, twice a month.

00:06:09Marc:Big money, folks.

00:06:11Marc:Big money.

00:06:13Marc:So San Francisco, folks, I've been in this auditorium before.

00:06:18Marc:The Masonic.

00:06:19Marc:I actually, I think that was in 1992.

00:06:25Marc:That was where the finals of the San Francisco comedy competition were.

00:06:29Marc:I think maybe 93.

00:06:30Marc:Fuck, I don't know.

00:06:32Marc:But that was the year that Carlos Alsraki came in first.

00:06:37Marc:I came in second.

00:06:38Marc:Patton Oswalt came in third.

00:06:41Marc:I think Rick Kearns came in fourth.

00:06:44Marc:And I can't remember who came in fifth, but I've been there and it was weird, folks.

00:06:49Marc:You know, I got the zap on my brain because I was a little closer to the source of the big conspiracy that I'm now involved in because I work for Deep State on the payroll.

00:07:02Marc:And George Soros, sorry.

00:07:04Marc:I got to throw a little love to Soros, you know what I mean?

00:07:07Marc:Because he's signing the checks.

00:07:08Marc:for my podcast fucking idiots um anyway but yeah i had the zap on my head about the masonic but i knew man i don't know if you've ever competed uh in anything but i don't compete a lot you know

00:07:23Marc:I compete in my mind and certainly I, you know, we're all competitive, but to actually be in that, that competition was so fucked up, man.

00:07:31Marc:They had these judges and then they'd break down these numbers and they put the numbers up the next day and you would never understand how it broke down or what the numbers were.

00:07:38Marc:And there was 40 people when the thing started and it comes down to five and oh my God, what a fucking stressful nightmare for comedy.

00:07:47Marc:But you know what?

00:07:48Marc:I knew it.

00:07:49Marc:Here's my point.

00:07:50Marc:is that sometimes it's just not your night, man.

00:07:53Marc:And I kind of knew it wasn't my night.

00:07:56Marc:And I don't know if that was my own head or if that was a real thing or I was picking up a mystical vibe, but I knew going in it was not my night.

00:08:05Marc:Second place is not bad, but it ain't first.

00:08:10Marc:But I knew it.

00:08:12Marc:When I went on, I'm like, I ain't fucking getting over right.

00:08:15Marc:Oh, my God.

00:08:16Marc:So that place is polluted for me.

00:08:18Marc:I'm going to have to go there, transcend, and kick some ghosts' ass.

00:08:23Marc:That's the big plan.

00:08:25Marc:But there are tickets.

00:08:26Marc:I'm looking forward to going to San Francisco for a couple days.

00:08:28Marc:I'm actually going to... I think I'm going to drive up.

00:08:31Marc:And I'm going to... I haven't done this the whole tour, but...

00:08:35Marc:I'm going to do a meet and greet, I guess.

00:08:37Marc:Yes, I am.

00:08:39Marc:I'm going to sell some posters myself.

00:08:43Marc:Maybe Luke will sit out there with me.

00:08:44Marc:I'm going to sell some posters and meet the people, take some pictures.

00:08:48Marc:I ordered myself a new square reader so people can charge with their cards.

00:08:54Marc:Bring cash, though.

00:08:55Marc:$40 for the hand-screened poster.

00:08:57Marc:Yeah, by Raquel Jack.

00:08:59Marc:40 buckaroos.

00:09:01Marc:But it's cool.

00:09:02Marc:And it's like, I know some people in other places are like, where was our poster?

00:09:06Marc:How come no Philly poster?

00:09:07Marc:How come no DC poster?

00:09:08Marc:Because it's a lot to wrangle.

00:09:09Marc:And this was sort of specific because I just felt that this particular artist kind of played into the San Francisco trip, man.

00:09:16Marc:Even the font, the graphic of my name is taken from the old weirdo, the Arkham weirdo comics.

00:09:24Marc:So...

00:09:24Marc:It just was a vibe, and this is where it's at.

00:09:27Marc:I got 100 of those fucking posters.

00:09:29Marc:98, actually.

00:09:30Marc:I'm taking two for myself.

00:09:31Marc:I hope you don't mind.

00:09:32Marc:And I'll be there.

00:09:33Marc:Hopefully the show will be good.

00:09:35Marc:There's nothing worse than the meet and greet when the show's not great.

00:09:38Marc:And you just kind of got to be like, oh, thanks.

00:09:41Marc:Yeah.

00:09:42Marc:Hey, I tried, man.

00:09:43Marc:Yeah, no, I've done better.

00:09:44Marc:Oh, thanks.

00:09:45Marc:It was okay.

00:09:47Marc:Okay.

00:09:48Marc:Yeah, you don't want to be that guy.

00:09:49Marc:Just pretend.

00:09:50Marc:Pretend like it's amazing.

00:09:53Marc:Yeah, I don't know if that's great advice.

00:09:55Marc:I don't know if it's honest advice.

00:09:56Marc:But don't take the experience away from somebody else.

00:09:59Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:10:00Marc:Everything's great.

00:10:02Marc:What a great night.

00:10:03Marc:But then they might walk away and be like, I think that guy's delusional.

00:10:07Marc:Is he delusional?

00:10:08Marc:I hope my check from deep status here.

00:10:11Marc:So Pamela DeBars is here.

00:10:13Marc:It's sort of interesting going back.

00:10:16Marc:She was part of rock and roll at a very kind of important, kind of crazy time in this city.

00:10:25Marc:And she's infamous and mythic.

00:10:29Marc:And she has a podcast called Pamela DeBars Pajama Party.

00:10:33Marc:She writes a regular column for the Please Kill Me website.

00:10:36Marc:And she's here.

00:10:37Marc:And I'm going to talk to her.

00:10:38Marc:Well, she was here.

00:10:39Marc:So this is me and Pamela.

00:10:40Pamela DeBars.

00:10:43Marc:I live five minutes from Whole Foods.

00:10:51Marc:Five minutes from Trader Joe's.

00:10:52Guest:Lucky, lucky, lucky.

00:10:54Guest:I'm not near a Whole Foods either.

00:10:55Marc:Oh my God, where do you live?

00:10:57Marc:In the valley?

00:10:58Guest:Yeah, way out in the valley.

00:10:59Guest:Reseda?

00:11:00Marc:Reseda.

00:11:01Guest:That's where I'm from.

00:11:03Marc:You grew up in Reseda?

00:11:04Marc:Yeah.

00:11:05Marc:I have no sense of Reseda.

00:11:07Marc:I know I drive by it.

00:11:09Marc:Is there anything nice about it?

00:11:11Marc:I've seen the sign for Reseda.

00:11:13Marc:Have you heard Free Fallen?

00:11:15Marc:No, I know.

00:11:15Marc:That's what always comes to mind.

00:11:17Guest:Of course, right?

00:11:18Marc:Is that about you?

00:11:19Guest:You know, I always thought it was.

00:11:21Guest:Just because of Jesus and Elvis and my mom and Reseda.

00:11:26Guest:Did you know Tom?

00:11:27Guest:I only met Tom briefly.

00:11:29Marc:Oh.

00:11:29Guest:Yeah.

00:11:30Marc:He was one of the few that you didn't know.

00:11:32Guest:There's a lot of them I didn't actually know.

00:11:37Marc:Right, yeah, yeah.

00:11:38Marc:But I mean, but socialized with?

00:11:39Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:11:40Guest:No, I met him once at Dylan's house.

00:11:42Guest:It was one of the best days of my life.

00:11:44Guest:Bob Dylan's 50th birthday party.

00:11:46Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:11:46Marc:I met you once.

00:11:48Marc:When?

00:11:49Marc:I met you briefly.

00:11:50Marc:Maybe not.

00:11:50Marc:I dated Moon for like six months.

00:11:52Marc:So I was at a Christmas party before Gail died.

00:11:55Marc:Maybe the last one.

00:11:56Guest:Okay.

00:11:57Guest:With all the trees in the living room.

00:11:59Guest:Yeah.

00:12:00Marc:So I think you were there.

00:12:01Guest:Always there for all her parties.

00:12:03Guest:Yeah.

00:12:04Marc:So I was sort of, I don't know if we met, but I think we did briefly.

00:12:08Marc:Yeah, it was quite an array of characters.

00:12:10Marc:Yeah.

00:12:10Guest:Always.

00:12:11Marc:At the Zappa house.

00:12:13Guest:Always.

00:12:13Marc:Yeah.

00:12:14Marc:And that house is gone now.

00:12:15Guest:Well, Lady Gaga owns it now.

00:12:17Guest:Did Lady Gaga buy it?

00:12:18Guest:Yes, she did.

00:12:19Guest:11.5.

00:12:20Marc:Oh, that's good.

00:12:21Guest:At least she wanted Frank's studio, of course.

00:12:24Marc:The original one downstairs?

00:12:26Marc:Mm-hmm.

00:12:26Marc:The one with the low ceilings?

00:12:28Guest:Yeah.

00:12:28Guest:I got to see it.

00:12:29Marc:Studio.

00:12:29Marc:Yeah.

00:12:30Marc:Oh, you did.

00:12:30Guest:Yeah.

00:12:31Marc:Well, I mean, you know.

00:12:32Guest:What years were you?

00:12:33Marc:When did I date Moon?

00:12:35Guest:Six months, yeah.

00:12:35Marc:It was about five years ago or so.

00:12:37Guest:Okay.

00:12:37Guest:So it was like- So Bill was unwell already.

00:12:40Marc:No, she literally got sick when I was with Moon towards the end of it.

00:12:46Marc:And I didn't really know.

00:12:47Marc:It was a very brief window.

00:12:50Marc:But yeah, she started to get sick right around the time I was with Moon.

00:12:55Marc:And I don't know that it ended particularly well with us, but she recently reached out and was like, hey, let's not be weird.

00:13:02Guest:Good.

00:13:04Guest:She's still, you know, I've known her all her life.

00:13:06Guest:You have, right?

00:13:07Guest:She was six months old, yeah.

00:13:09Guest:What was your- She's 51 now.

00:13:11Marc:Right.

00:13:12Marc:Yeah.

00:13:12Marc:That's crazy.

00:13:13Guest:That's how long I've known that girl.

00:13:14Marc:Yeah.

00:13:15Marc:But you used to, like, watch them?

00:13:17Guest:I was their governess.

00:13:18Guest:I lived in the house, in the Zappa house for three years, and then I'd go back and forth whenever I-

00:13:23Guest:was having trouble finding somewhere to live or moved out with somebody, Gail would always take me back and I would be the nanny governess for however long that lasted.

00:13:33Marc:I guess a lot of people know your story because you've written a couple books about it and you're sort of infamous, but there is sort of the movement.

00:13:44Marc:Where does it start?

00:13:45Marc:How do you get to Los Angeles?

00:13:48Marc:Were you always here?

00:13:49Guest:Well, I was raised in Reseda.

00:13:51Guest:I know, but were you born here?

00:13:52Guest:I was born in L.A., yes.

00:13:54Marc:You were?

00:13:54Marc:Uh-huh.

00:13:55Marc:So your folks are from here?

00:13:56Guest:I'm a SoCal gal.

00:13:57Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:13:57Marc:Do you have siblings?

00:13:58Guest:No, they're from the South.

00:13:59Marc:Oh.

00:13:59Guest:No, I'm an only child.

00:14:01Guest:My mom lost a couple kids before me, a couple after me, so I was adored and worshipped and revered.

00:14:08Guest:But, you know, I got in trouble.

00:14:09Guest:It wasn't like, you know, I didn't have consequences.

00:14:12Guest:Yeah.

00:14:14Guest:Yeah, I got in trouble, but I was always music...

00:14:17Marc:But this is like the 60s, right?

00:14:20Marc:50s.

00:14:20Guest:50s, I was music crazed.

00:14:23Guest:I got turned on to Elvis Presley when I was nine.

00:14:28Guest:I went to my dad.

00:14:30Guest:I still love thrift stores and thrifting and treasure hunting because my dad took me to thrift stores and garage sales when I was a little kid.

00:14:37Marc:It's not the same anymore, though, because everyone knows what they have.

00:14:40Marc:To find good shit, like records and stuff, you've got to hope that the person doesn't know what they have.

00:14:45Guest:Right.

00:14:45Guest:Yeah.

00:14:46Guest:Most people, eBay changed everything.

00:14:48Guest:Yeah.

00:14:48Marc:The internet just ruined it.

00:14:49Guest:It truly did.

00:14:50Guest:However, I travel all over the country teaching my writing workshops and I go to all the small town thrift stores and I still, believe me, I still find great stuff.

00:15:00Guest:What do you look for?

00:15:02Guest:Mainly vintage clothes and knick-knacks.

00:15:05Guest:My house is so full.

00:15:06Guest:Some people might call me a hoarder, but they would be wrong.

00:15:09Marc:An organized hoarder.

00:15:10Marc:Very organized.

00:15:11Guest:Clean.

00:15:12Guest:Clean.

00:15:13Guest:A collector.

00:15:14Guest:But anyway, yes.

00:15:15Guest:Elvis at nine, my dad took me and he said, pick anything you want.

00:15:19Guest:And I didn't see any dolls or toys or anything, but I saw a stack of records.

00:15:24Yeah.

00:15:24Guest:The first one was Great Balls of Fire I picked because of the yellow, you know, really bright cover.

00:15:30Guest:Seven-inch ones?

00:15:30Marc:No, they were 45s.

00:15:32Guest:Yeah, 45s.

00:15:33Guest:And then Elvis was right under that, and I had seen him on Ed Sullivan.

00:15:38Guest:I was curious, so I bought it.

00:15:40Guest:It was Jailhouse Rock.

00:15:41Marc:I bet you Jerry Lee would be happy that you saw his first.

00:15:44Guest:Yeah, he probably would.

00:15:46Guest:So I brought those home, and my life was altered for all time.

00:15:50Marc:When I hear about people who were kids when that stuff happened, I guess it's hard when you just listen to it.

00:15:57Marc:When my dad played that stuff for me, it was like, yeah, that's great music.

00:16:02Marc:I love it.

00:16:03Marc:But it was really mind-blowing when it came out.

00:16:06Guest:Yes, it was life altering, planet tilting.

00:16:10Guest:Elvis was doing the black music, but he gave them credit.

00:16:17Guest:He actually brought black music to the fore, which was really important, I thought.

00:16:21Guest:But a lot of people say he ripped them off.

00:16:23Guest:I don't think so.

00:16:24Guest:He was doing what felt right to him.

00:16:25Guest:He was a kid.

00:16:26Marc:Yeah, music is an evolution of ripping off.

00:16:29Guest:Yes, yeah, for sure.

00:16:30Guest:Even Dylan says that, who's my god.

00:16:32Marc:Yeah, he's your guy?

00:16:33Guest:He's my god, man.

00:16:34Marc:Some of the later Dylan records, he actually claims writing credit on songs that are, I'm pretty sure, pretty traditional.

00:16:40Marc:But that's not, you came to him a little later?

00:16:43Marc:Yeah.

00:16:43Guest:Well, no, right away.

00:16:45Guest:I was in high school when Victor Hayden went to my high school, who was Captain Beefheart's cousin, Don Van Vliet.

00:16:51Marc:Victor Hayden.

00:16:52Marc:Don Van Vliet.

00:16:53Guest:Yeah.

00:16:53Guest:Are you familiar with Captain Beefheart?

00:16:55Guest:Of course I am.

00:16:55Guest:Oh, good.

00:16:56Marc:I do a whole comedy bit about Captain Beefheart.

00:16:58Marc:And I talk to Moon about Captain Beefheart, teaching her how to drive.

00:17:03Guest:Uh-huh.

00:17:04Guest:Wow.

00:17:05Guest:Well, he taught me a lot, too.

00:17:06Guest:I was in high school.

00:17:07Guest:Victor went to my high school.

00:17:09Marc:So this Victor, he's his cousin?

00:17:10Guest:Yeah, Victor Hayden was his cousin.

00:17:12Marc:And he lived out in the desert, right?

00:17:15Guest:Yeah, but at this time, he was living in the valley.

00:17:17Marc:Uh-huh.

00:17:18Marc:How old was he at this time?

00:17:20Marc:What was he doing?

00:17:21Marc:Uh-huh.

00:17:21Guest:Well, he was older than I was.

00:17:22Guest:He was probably 26 or so.

00:17:25Marc:And you were, like, 16?

00:17:26Guest:Yeah.

00:17:27Guest:No, he was maybe even only 24 or 5, yeah.

00:17:30Guest:I was 16 when I met Don.

00:17:32Guest:Talk about a mind-boggling life change.

00:17:35Marc:What happened?

00:17:36Marc:Where'd you go?

00:17:37Marc:What was that scene?

00:17:38Guest:Well, okay, Victor went to my high school.

00:17:40Guest:He turned me on to Dylan right in high school.

00:17:42Guest:The first album, Bob Dylan.

00:17:43Marc:Right, 65, 64.

00:17:44Marc:Life-changing game, yeah.

00:17:46Guest:Then he took me to meet Don.

00:17:48Guest:A few months later at the second annual teen fair at the Hollywood Palladium, where he was really out of place.

00:17:56Marc:Who Don was?

00:17:57Guest:Yes.

00:17:59Guest:Captain Beefheart and the Magic Band, that first album, genius.

00:18:03Marc:Sure, but was that who he was when you met him?

00:18:05Marc:Yeah.

00:18:06Guest:He was already Captain Beefheart in 65.

00:18:08Guest:I met him early 65.

00:18:10Guest:So he looked me up and down, and Victor had already combed.

00:18:15Guest:I had a big bouffant and everything, and I was trying to be a cheerleader, but he convinced me.

00:18:20Guest:I mean, I just wanted to comb the rats out of my hair after I met Victor, so I was looking pretty hip.

00:18:25Guest:My dad brought me a corduroy jacket, and he looked me up and down and said, You're a gas.

00:18:30Guest:I wish there were more people like you.

00:18:32Guest:This was huge for a 16-year-old girl.

00:18:35Guest:Yes.

00:18:36Guest:For this big, gruff man.

00:18:37Guest:Yeah.

00:18:39Guest:This tall, imposing dude.

00:18:41Guest:So I went out to find out, okay, what is a gas?

00:18:45Marc:You have to become that.

00:18:47Marc:What is a gas?

00:18:47Guest:What is a gas?

00:18:48Guest:I'd never heard that term.

00:18:49Marc:Did you find out?

00:18:50Yeah.

00:18:50Guest:Well, sort of.

00:18:52Guest:Victor turned me on to jazz.

00:18:54Guest:He took me to a club called Mother Neptune.

00:18:56Guest:And you're like 17, 16?

00:18:58Guest:Yeah, 16, 17.

00:18:58Marc:And they're just letting you in places?

00:19:00Guest:Different times?

00:19:01Guest:Yeah, I guess so.

00:19:03Guest:I soon got fake IDs as soon as I started hanging out on the strip.

00:19:06Guest:But yeah, Victor, I give him so much credit for altering my life.

00:19:10Guest:And Don.

00:19:10Marc:Yeah.

00:19:11Guest:Yeah.

00:19:12Marc:So, okay.

00:19:12Marc:So at that meeting, you meet Beefheart and then he's, and that's his first record around his first record.

00:19:17Guest:Safe as milk.

00:19:18Marc:Right.

00:19:18Marc:Fantastic.

00:19:19Marc:Kind of weirdo How and Wolf jams.

00:19:23Guest:Blues.

00:19:24Guest:Yeah.

00:19:24Guest:Rock and blues though, man.

00:19:26Marc:So good to dance to that record.

00:19:28Marc:Yeah.

00:19:28Marc:He was great.

00:19:29Marc:He became a real character.

00:19:30Marc:So when does like, when does your commitment to the life of rock and roll begin?

00:19:36Guest:Very soon after that, I got to Hollywood from the valley, which was literally like going from the Midwest to the moon.

00:19:43Marc:Yeah.

00:19:44Marc:You didn't go over there often?

00:19:46Guest:I never did.

00:19:46Guest:Reseda was West Valley.

00:19:48Guest:It was my little area.

00:19:50Guest:I knew that had my little record store, the theater where I saw Hard Day's Night and all those things.

00:19:56Guest:But then-

00:19:57Guest:Over the hill.

00:19:58Marc:It's like right over the hill.

00:19:59Guest:Right over the... Magic.

00:20:00Guest:Magic.

00:20:01Guest:And I had a car.

00:20:02Guest:My daddy bought me a 59 Chevy Impala convertible for my 16th birthday.

00:20:07Guest:Boy, I wish I had that.

00:20:08Guest:Anyway, I drove that over the hill.

00:20:10Marc:Yeah.

00:20:11Guest:And it was Oz.

00:20:13Marc:Where'd you start going first?

00:20:15Guest:Pandora's Box, which was the club at Crescent Heights and Sunset.

00:20:19Guest:Pandora's Box was torn down because they had to have a three-way turn signal.

00:20:24Guest:But I really believe it was because the hippies were taking over the strip.

00:20:28Guest:There were at least 1,000 to 1,500 hippies up and down the street, long-haired boys growing their hair out, girls taking their bras off.

00:20:37Guest:No, 65, 66 is when I started.

00:20:39Marc:This is when it started.

00:20:41Guest:Yeah.

00:20:42Marc:And it was really that populated, huh?

00:20:44Guest:Yes.

00:20:45Guest:It was a revolution.

00:20:47Guest:It was a revelation.

00:20:47Guest:It was magic.

00:20:49Guest:You can't describe it.

00:20:52Marc:Where'd you park?

00:20:55Guest:We had to walk a few blocks, yeah.

00:20:57Guest:And then I started hitching because it was easier.

00:20:59Guest:Right.

00:20:59Guest:I would hitch over the hill, Laurel Canyon.

00:21:01Guest:Yeah.

00:21:01Guest:where all the rock stars lived.

00:21:03Guest:The Birds, Love, Buffalo Springfield, all the cool people, mamas and poppas, everybody hung out.

00:21:09Guest:Frank.

00:21:10Guest:Yeah, Frank.

00:21:11Guest:I first saw Frank, first saw him.

00:21:14Guest:And I always, of course, because of Don, I knew about Zappa.

00:21:19Guest:And he had just moved to town from New York.

00:21:22Guest:Yeah, Frank.

00:21:23Guest:And I saw him at the Lenny Bruce Eulogy.

00:21:26Guest:That's how hip I was at 16 and still in high school.

00:21:29Guest:Where'd they have that?

00:21:30Guest:He's buried way up in the valley, the Northwest Valley.

00:21:35Guest:Sun Valley, I think it is.

00:21:37Marc:Lenny is?

00:21:37Marc:Yeah.

00:21:39Guest:And there was this big, long hippie march up to his gravesite.

00:21:42Guest:And I first saw that guy, Vito.

00:21:45Guest:Everybody knew it was happening?

00:21:46Guest:Yeah, you know.

00:21:47Guest:Who's Vito?

00:21:48Guest:Vito was the... It's hard to describe him, too, because these things couldn't happen today.

00:21:54Guest:Actually, Rodney Bingenheimer took me to his 54th birthday party in 66.

00:22:00Wow.

00:22:00Guest:And he had a sidekick called Captain Fuck.

00:22:05Guest:Can I say that?

00:22:05Guest:Sure.

00:22:06Guest:Captain Fuck.

00:22:07Guest:He had a big F and blazing on a big red cape he wore.

00:22:10Guest:And it was just a bunch of hippie, wild, trippy freaks.

00:22:14Marc:Vito was?

00:22:15Guest:Vito.

00:22:16Guest:Yeah.

00:22:16Guest:He was 54 years old.

00:22:17Marc:Then?

00:22:18Guest:Yeah.

00:22:19Guest:And he had come from the beats.

00:22:21Guest:Yeah.

00:22:22Guest:And he always wanted to be the center of attention.

00:22:23Guest:He was an amazing artist, incredible dancer.

00:22:26Guest:What kind of painter?

00:22:27Guest:A painter?

00:22:27Guest:Sculpt.

00:22:28Guest:Sculptor.

00:22:29Guest:Uh-huh.

00:22:30Guest:And we started dancing with his troupe.

00:22:32Guest:I met all the GTOs, my girl group, before we were even, you know, we were just very young teenagers.

00:22:39Guest:Well, you know, 17.

00:22:40Marc:Yeah, I have that record.

00:22:41Yeah.

00:22:42Guest:You do?

00:22:42Guest:I bet you have a big collection of records.

00:22:44Marc:I have a few records, yeah, but somehow I got the GTO's record somewhere.

00:22:48Marc:I have it.

00:22:49Marc:Wow, you should have me sign it.

00:22:50Marc:I will.

00:22:52Marc:I think I have a record called The Groupies.

00:22:54Guest:Yeah, there was a band called The Groupies.

00:22:57Marc:And there was a movie called The Groupies with a soundtrack.

00:23:00Marc:Yeah, I thought it was just talking.

00:23:02Marc:It's not just, maybe, I don't know, I'd have to look.

00:23:04Guest:I don't know if there's music, because I was in that movie, but I was seeing Jimmy Page at the time, and I was always pretty secretive.

00:23:11Guest:They didn't like to be talked about.

00:23:13Marc:Who, Hendrick?

00:23:15Guest:Page and any of them, but Zeppelin especially were very private people.

00:23:19Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:23:20Guest:But I said I would do this movie.

00:23:22Guest:I wanted to be in the movie.

00:23:23Guest:These people said, oh, we'll film it at your house.

00:23:25Guest:So the whole thing was filmed at my house.

00:23:27Guest:And they said, we will not use the word groupie if you don't like it.

00:23:30Guest:So, of course, they called the movie groupies.

00:23:32Guest:The groupies, yeah.

00:23:33Marc:So going back to Vito and the Lenny Bruce eulogy.

00:23:35Guest:Yes, I went to the Lenny Bruce eulogy and met Vito there and hung out with these crazy freaks.

00:23:42Guest:You know, I always wore a padded bra.

00:23:44Marc:So you weren't a freak yet.

00:23:45Marc:You were just a teenager.

00:23:47Guest:I was a...

00:23:47Guest:Pre-hippie.

00:23:49Guest:I thought I was a hippie.

00:23:51Guest:And then I became a flower child at the Lovins and stuff, and then I really latched on to the Vito scene in Zappa and became a freak.

00:23:59Guest:It was quite a different situation between those three categories.

00:24:04Marc:Right, because Frank was sort of anti-hippie in a weird way, right?

00:24:07Guest:Well, he made fun of everything.

00:24:09Guest:But he wasn't really anti-hippie.

00:24:11Guest:He just didn't take drugs.

00:24:13Guest:So he thought they were stupid, smoking pot and taking drugs.

00:24:16Guest:Of course, he wrote that fantastic song, Flower Punk.

00:24:20Marc:So the Lenny Bruce eulogy was sort of the baptism in the freak scenes?

00:24:25Guest:Yeah, it was.

00:24:25Guest:It was a baptism and also the birthday party, Vito's 54th birthday, very close to each other.

00:24:32Marc:Did people speak at the Lenny Bruce thing?

00:24:33Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:24:34Marc:Yeah?

00:24:34Guest:Phil Spector led the talks and everybody said a few words.

00:24:38Guest:I actually have a picture of me sitting there looking up at Phil Spector when I was 16.

00:24:42Guest:Pretty cool.

00:24:43Guest:And I was already wearing vintage clothes, vintage velvets, because a friend of mine's grandma let us go into her trunk.

00:24:51Guest:Yeah.

00:24:51Guest:I mean, that was another life changing.

00:24:53Guest:Everything was blowing my mind.

00:24:56Guest:Sure.

00:24:56Guest:And I was this normal, sort of normal, but an only child.

00:25:00Guest:Yeah.

00:25:01Guest:Makes you a little abnormal.

00:25:02Guest:Right.

00:25:02Guest:In the valley.

00:25:03Guest:And I just transformed into this creature.

00:25:06Marc:When you hear about like the, like I know that you've certainly seen the arc of time hit a lot of these dudes, but you know, it didn't end well for Phil.

00:25:16Marc:Yeah.

00:25:16Guest:No, it sure didn't.

00:25:17Marc:But like at that time, you know, was there any sense that he was sort of a monster and a weirdo?

00:25:23Guest:Phil Spector was a kind goofball.

00:25:25Guest:We all hung out at Cantor's because the clubs closed at two and we'd all show up at Cantor's because they were all night.

00:25:31Guest:You had to have 50 cents so you couldn't go in.

00:25:33Guest:You had to buy some soup for 50 cents.

00:25:35Marc:This is the mid 60s.

00:25:36Guest:Yeah, mid-60s.

00:25:36Guest:Well, this is now 66.

00:25:38Guest:He would buy me food.

00:25:40Guest:He was a very kind fellow.

00:25:42Guest:He wanted the hippie girls to be there, so he'd buy our food for us.

00:25:47Marc:He liked to have the girls around.

00:25:49Guest:Yeah, he really did.

00:25:50Guest:He always had a full table full of girls.

00:25:52Guest:And, you know, it was such a magical situation with all the bands wandering around the strip.

00:26:00Guest:There was no separation between the hippies, the flower kids, the freaks, and the rock stars.

00:26:06Marc:And it seemed like everyone had sort of access.

00:26:09Marc:They were out in the streets as well.

00:26:11Guest:Yeah, they were hanging out in the streets.

00:26:13Guest:The riots on the Sunset Strip...

00:26:15Marc:What were they about?

00:26:16Guest:They were going to close Pandora's box.

00:26:18Guest:So we decided to protest.

00:26:23Guest:So we had signs made and we sat cross-legged on Sunset in the street.

00:26:29Guest:And thousands, probably about 1,000, 1,200 kids.

00:26:33Guest:And the cops came with their batons and started beating us all up.

00:26:37Guest:But they were going to close Pandora's box, which was a very cool little all-ages club.

00:26:42Marc:This is where the mall is now?

00:26:44Guest:No, right now it's a small island.

00:26:47Marc:Oh, so it didn't exist.

00:26:48Guest:And it was a big island.

00:26:49Marc:Right, I get it, I get it.

00:26:51Guest:They were widening the street.

00:26:52Marc:Oh, I get it.

00:26:53Marc:Wow.

00:26:54Marc:All right, so when does, like...

00:26:57Marc:How do you shift into this lifestyle where because it's hard to because there's an idea of the 60s and how people viewed sex and communal living and free love.

00:27:08Guest:Oh, so different then.

00:27:10Guest:Sure.

00:27:11Marc:But, you know, like you kind of get characterized or you characterize yourself as somebody who it was sort of your gig.

00:27:16Marc:Right.

00:27:17Marc:To hang out with rock stars.

00:27:19Guest:I wouldn't call it a gig because I always had to work to pay for things.

00:27:24Marc:When did that start?

00:27:26Marc:When did you realize, I'm going to be the person that sleeps with rock stars?

00:27:32Guest:I never said that to myself.

00:27:34Guest:I'm going to sleep with rock stars.

00:27:36Guest:I wanted them to be my boyfriends.

00:27:38Marc:Oh, it was earnest.

00:27:39Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:27:40Guest:Oh, totally earnest.

00:27:41Guest:Oh, my God.

00:27:42Guest:I'm all about love.

00:27:43Guest:Are you kidding?

00:27:43Guest:Oh, my God.

00:27:44Guest:I'm still a flower child down deep.

00:27:47Marc:You must have gotten your heart broken over and over again.

00:27:49Guest:I did get it broken, yeah.

00:27:50Guest:I was looking for love, looking for love.

00:27:53Guest:Yeah.

00:27:53Guest:And there was no groupie word.

00:27:56Guest:That word didn't exist when I was doing this stuff.

00:27:59Marc:When did it start, though?

00:28:00Marc:Who was the first one you fell in love with who you...

00:28:03Guest:Well, I was hanging out with Zeppelin.

00:28:06Marc:What year?

00:28:06Guest:I was seeing Jimmy.

00:28:07Guest:This was 68.

00:28:08Marc:Oh, before they broke big even.

00:28:10Guest:Yeah, first album is when I was seeing him.

00:28:12Guest:Maybe it was early 69.

00:28:13Guest:Where'd you meet him?

00:28:15Guest:Well, it's a fun story.

00:28:17Guest:I was with Cynthia Plastercaster in Chicago visiting her.

00:28:22Marc:She made the Dick Sculptures?

00:28:22Guest:She made the dick.

00:28:24Guest:They weren't sculptures.

00:28:25Marc:They were actual dicks.

00:28:26Marc:Plastic casting of the cocks.

00:28:27Guest:Plaster dicks.

00:28:28Guest:So, yep, I went to visit her, and she's on the GTO's album, Our First Conversation, Frank Taped, which is so great.

00:28:34Marc:Oh, that must be where I'm thinking of.

00:28:35Marc:That's on the record.

00:28:36Guest:Yeah, that's on the GTO's album, Permanent Damage.

00:28:39Marc:So now, like, in that scene, she's out there making plaster casts of rock guys' cocks.

00:28:46Guest:She had to love the music, or she wouldn't do it.

00:28:48Marc:Okay.

00:28:49Marc:But who hooks you up with her?

00:28:51Marc:How do you know that this is the circle you're running in?

00:28:54Guest:Frank introduced us on the phone.

00:28:56Marc:Frank did, okay.

00:28:56Guest:And we were, you know, fell in love.

00:29:00Guest:We were both in love with Noel Redding from the Jimi Hendrix experience.

00:29:03Guest:So we really connected on that.

00:29:05Guest:And I went to Chicago to visit her when 68 was turning to 69.

00:29:10Guest:And I got to see a lot of her dicks.

00:29:14Guest:They were pretty amazing, the Hendrix one especially, which she still sells very small amount of replicas right now, if you're interested.

00:29:22Marc:She still got those casts?

00:29:24Guest:Oh, of course.

00:29:24Guest:Yes, that's her life's work.

00:29:27Guest:So, oh, no, it's real serious work.

00:29:30Guest:She's going to go down in history, I believe, as a very important artist.

00:29:33Guest:I've always believed that.

00:29:34Marc:So you can still get a Hendrix cock?

00:29:37Guest:Yes, for $2,000.

00:29:38Marc:Okay, there you go.

00:29:40Guest:Don't you want one?

00:29:41Marc:I'm ordering it now.

00:29:43Guest:They're bronzed.

00:29:45Guest:Are they?

00:29:45Guest:Yeah.

00:29:46Guest:So when I was visiting her, she had a big poster of Led Zeppelin on the wall.

00:29:51Guest:And I'd never heard of him.

00:29:52Guest:Right.

00:29:53Guest:This was 68, turning 69.

00:29:55Guest:So she said, oh, you got to stay away from those guys.

00:29:58Guest:They're really dangerous.

00:30:00Guest:Ooh, especially that Jimmy Page.

00:30:02Guest:Oh, my God.

00:30:02Guest:I've heard he has whips on the road.

00:30:04Guest:So I said, oh, my God.

00:30:05Guest:Oh, of course I'll stay away from them.

00:30:07Guest:But he was awfully cute.

00:30:09Guest:Uh-huh.

00:30:09Guest:So when they did come to town, of course, I love the music.

00:30:13Guest:It's a great album.

00:30:14Guest:It's always about the music for me.

00:30:15Marc:That first album.

00:30:16Guest:And the second one, too.

00:30:17Marc:Oh, yeah, for sure.

00:30:18Marc:They're all pretty good.

00:30:19Guest:So I was at a club called The Experience, which was a short-lived club, a very, very naughty club on Sunset.

00:30:28Marc:Why was it naughty?

00:30:29Guest:Well, you could pretty much get away with anything in there.

00:30:32Guest:I was pretty new to drugs, though, and I had only slept with a couple of people when this happened.

00:30:38Guest:I was pretty green.

00:30:40Guest:But Zeppelin walked into the experience, and I had heard from one of the BTOs, Boys Together Outrageously, the boys we danced with, the gay boys, so colorful, so wonderful, and that one of them had gotten a postcard.

00:30:53Guest:from someone who said, Jimmy Page wants Miss Pamela.

00:30:56Guest:And I was like, ooh.

00:30:58Guest:See, these were the groupie tom-toms.

00:31:00Guest:There was no texting, there was no Google, there was no internet, there was nothing.

00:31:04Guest:But I still heard that Jimmy Page wanted me.

00:31:08Marc:And it was a smaller town then too, right?

00:31:10Marc:So like people who were on the scene, I mean, word could travel pretty quickly because it was not a huge scene.

00:31:16Guest:Yes, it wasn't that big.

00:31:17Guest:No, people tend to think that, oh, everybody was a hippie in the 60s.

00:31:20Guest:No, it was a real small group of free-spirited, free-thinking weirdos.

00:31:27Guest:But that night at The Experience.

00:31:29Marc:The Experience.

00:31:30Guest:Where was that called?

00:31:31Guest:T-H-E-E, The Experience.

00:31:33Guest:Sunset and Stanley, I think it was.

00:31:35Guest:Rodney Bingenheimer's club opened close to there later.

00:31:38Guest:But anyway, I was passed a note by their roadie, Richard Cole.

00:31:43Guest:Very notorious roadie.

00:31:46Guest:Probably the most notorious roadie ever.

00:31:48Guest:Anyway, he passed me a note saying, Jimmy wants to meet you at room 609, whatever, after the show.

00:31:55Marc:At the Hyatt?

00:31:56Guest:At the Hyatt, of course.

00:31:57Guest:The riot house.

00:31:59Guest:And I didn't go.

00:32:00Guest:Because I had heard he was, you know, difficult and, you know, with the whips and all that stuff.

00:32:07Guest:So he somehow got a hold of my phone number.

00:32:10Guest:You know, people ask me, how did you meet these guys?

00:32:12Guest:Oh, did you have to, what did you have to do?

00:32:14Guest:Yeah.

00:32:14Guest:Nothing.

00:32:15Guest:Because we were, the GTOs were already kind of renowned crazy girls.

00:32:20Guest:Yeah.

00:32:21Guest:Yeah.

00:32:21Guest:half-naked, wild-dancing, freaky girls.

00:32:23Guest:Yeah, you were one of them.

00:32:25Guest:And we had our album.

00:32:25Guest:Yeah, the GTA was Girls Together Outrageously.

00:32:27Guest:Frank recorded us.

00:32:29Guest:At this point, though, the record wasn't out yet or anything.

00:32:31Guest:We were just, everyone knew who we were.

00:32:33Guest:Just notorious.

00:32:33Guest:Yes, exactly.

00:32:34Marc:And he found your phone number.

00:32:35Marc:Does that mean, where were you living?

00:32:36Marc:Your folks?

00:32:37Guest:No, I had just moved into my own apartment.

00:32:40Marc:Yeah.

00:32:40Guest:In Hollywood.

00:32:41Guest:Yeah, in Hollywood, West Hollywood.

00:32:43Guest:And he called me and he coerced me and he sweet talked me and that accent and those rosebud lips and all that stuff.

00:32:50Guest:So he invited me to a show out in Long Beach.

00:32:53Guest:So Michelle Overman, my dear friend at the time, was already seeing Robert Plant.

00:32:58Guest:So she said, oh, come on, just see the show.

00:33:01Guest:So, of course, that's all it took, seeing the show.

00:33:05Guest:So we made out and had all these passion.

00:33:08Guest:Incredible.

00:33:10Guest:Well, no one had ever seen the arena, Long Beach Arena.

00:33:14Guest:So then Jimmy and I became an item after that.

00:33:16Marc:So you made out with Jimmy after the show, and then you became an item.

00:33:19Guest:Well, he had to woo me a little bit.

00:33:22Marc:Yeah.

00:33:22Guest:Because I had only like, I think he was the fourth person I slept with.

00:33:26Marc:Fourth, yeah.

00:33:28Guest:Yeah.

00:33:28Guest:Was he the first rock guy?

00:33:30Guest:Oh, God, no.

00:33:30Guest:The first three were bass players.

00:33:33Marc:Bass players.

00:33:33Marc:So now you're moving up to the guitar player.

00:33:36Marc:Got a little confidence.

00:33:37Guest:It was Nick St.

00:33:39Guest:Nicholas, who I was really in love with, bass player in Steppenwolf, and then Noel Redding.

00:33:44Guest:Yeah.

00:33:45Guest:Yeah, Noel Redding, and then Chris Hillman of the Byrds, who was my true, true, true love off and on for decades in my life.

00:33:52Guest:Hillman?

00:33:52Marc:Yeah.

00:33:53Marc:Yeah.

00:33:54Marc:So those are the first three, and then you stepped up to the guitars.

00:33:57Guest:Then it was Jimmy Page, and then it was Mick Jagger.

00:33:59Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:33:59Guest:So I guess you can see the elevation, right?

00:34:02Marc:Right.

00:34:03Marc:Yeah.

00:34:03Marc:But now, when you have a relationship with a guy like Jimmy at that time, I mean, what is that?

00:34:09Marc:Do you find, are they, because there's a lot of talk about inspiration, about muses, about this and that.

00:34:16Guest:Of course, we were all muses, all of us girls.

00:34:18Marc:You think that you felt that?

00:34:19Guest:yes I mean at the time I was just having fun yeah you know you reflect later yeah of course we were really inspiring these people Roberts told me going to California is about me and a couple of other LA girls you know yeah and yes they in fact Zeppelin would base themselves in California in LA at the Hyatt house rent the whole sixth floor and fly out to everywhere else their wives always thought they were in Idaho somewhere well there was only one wife yeah Robert was married oh no wait there was only one single one Jimmy was single

00:34:48Marc:Right.

00:34:48Guest:They were all married.

00:34:49Guest:Yeah.

00:34:49Guest:Everybody got married so young in England then.

00:34:51Marc:I guess so.

00:34:52Marc:I think he's, isn't Robert still married?

00:34:53Marc:I don't know.

00:34:54Marc:I mean, I know he's got.

00:34:55Guest:Absolutely not.

00:34:56Marc:No.

00:34:57Marc:No.

00:34:59Marc:That's a guy you stay in touch with?

00:35:01Guest:I did for many, many years, decades.

00:35:04Guest:Whenever he came to town, he'd come over.

00:35:06Guest:We'd have tea.

00:35:07Guest:We'd go to dinner.

00:35:08Guest:I went to all his shows.

00:35:10Guest:Then he just stopped talking to me about four years ago.

00:35:13Guest:Broke my heart.

00:35:14Guest:That's too bad.

00:35:14Guest:I do believe it's because he has a young girlfriend.

00:35:17Guest:They get young, young girlfriends.

00:35:19Guest:He and Jimmy have very young girlfriends right now.

00:35:22Guest:I think the girls don't want to know about the past.

00:35:24Guest:He doesn't want to think about it either with the new young girlfriend.

00:35:27Guest:Even though Robert and I never actually slept together.

00:35:31Guest:We talked about it for years, but we didn't do it.

00:35:33Marc:Were these relationships, if they weren't specifically just sexual, did you see these guys struggle through stuff?

00:35:39Marc:Oh, of course.

00:35:40Guest:I went on the road with them.

00:35:44Guest:From a groupie, I went to a super groupie, which were girls who were taken on the road because these guys had girls in every port.

00:35:52Guest:I'm a traveling man.

00:35:53Guest:Remember that song Eric Nelson?

00:35:55Guest:So they had girls everywhere.

00:35:56Guest:It was a toy store.

00:35:58Guest:The world was a toy store for these guys, and the time was ripe.

00:36:02Guest:No one was getting killed by having sex.

00:36:07Guest:It was a beautiful, free-spirited, free-loving time.

00:36:10Guest:No one was using each other.

00:36:12Guest:When my book came out, I'm with the band, my first book.

00:36:15Guest:Yeah.

00:36:16Guest:I had no idea how it would be received.

00:36:18Guest:You never know when you're writing a book if anyone's even going to read it.

00:36:23Guest:It became a bestseller, which is great.

00:36:25Guest:And I think I opened the door for a lot of other quotes of nobodies to write their memoir.

00:36:29Guest:But at the time, I was considered to be a submissive slut when that book came out.

00:36:35Marc:By who?

00:36:36Guest:Because the word groupie was used.

00:36:39Marc:Oh, so who gave you that name?

00:36:41Marc:Who gave you a submissive... Oh, God, everybody.

00:36:44Guest:The press.

00:36:44Guest:I mean, it got good reviews for the writing and stuff.

00:36:47Guest:But when I would go on talk shows, people were just...

00:36:52Guest:The audience members would stand up and just call me names.

00:36:57Guest:Like you were a whore or a swat.

00:36:59Guest:Yes, submissive to rock stars, which was the absolute antithesis of what was really going on.

00:37:05Marc:They don't understand the egos of rock stars.

00:37:06Guest:No, we were equals with these people.

00:37:10Guest:I took Rod Stewart shopping for his first freaking feather boa, you know.

00:37:15Marc:How you did that?

00:37:16Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:37:16Guest:All that.

00:37:17Guest:We dressed Alice Cooper and put their makeup on them.

00:37:19Guest:I mean, we were very important girls.

00:37:21Guest:The GTOs.

00:37:23Marc:You define the culture of that era of rock.

00:37:27Guest:We actually did.

00:37:28Marc:Yeah.

00:37:29Marc:Yeah.

00:37:29Marc:I mean, why they needed that.

00:37:31Marc:Because I just I picture, look, you know, these guys are performers.

00:37:34Marc:People know their records.

00:37:35Marc:A lot of times people don't realize that, you know, it takes weeks, maybe months to pull a record together, the studio hours and all that.

00:37:42Marc:And when you're on tour, you're on the stage for like two or three hours on the road.

00:37:46Marc:Right.

00:37:47Guest:I know.

00:37:47Guest:Right.

00:37:48Guest:They get there two and a half hours.

00:37:49Guest:Zeppelin's created those long gigs.

00:37:53Guest:But yeah.

00:37:54Guest:And then the rest of the time, they're staring at the four walls in the hotel room.

00:37:58Guest:Or on the bus.

00:37:58Guest:For the girls.

00:37:59Guest:Yeah.

00:38:00Guest:I was seeing these guys pre-bus.

00:38:02Guest:There were no tour buses.

00:38:03Guest:And what was the- And the bands were huge, so they didn't have to have tour buses.

00:38:08Marc:Did you ever have to deal with any of these guys having a sort of crisis of identity or insecurity or breakdowns?

00:38:15Guest:Keith Moon, yeah.

00:38:16Marc:Oh, boy.

00:38:16Marc:Yeah.

00:38:17Guest:Keith Moon was one of my main squeezes.

00:38:19Marc:Really?

00:38:20Guest:Early on?

00:38:20Guest:I could soothe him.

00:38:22Guest:No, middle.

00:38:23Guest:I would say the middle of his career was a 70-year-old.

00:38:26Guest:I met him on the set of 200 Motels.

00:38:29Guest:He played The Nun.

00:38:30Marc:The Zappas movie.

00:38:31Guest:Yes, Zappas movie.

00:38:33Guest:And we became friendly because I was seeing someone else at that time.

00:38:37Guest:But then when I was single and he came to town, well, I wasn't quite single, but he came to town and we really connected.

00:38:44Guest:We always liked each other.

00:38:45Guest:And whenever he came to town, I was his L.A.

00:38:48Guest:girl.

00:38:49Guest:And it was a very wild ride because now he would be considered bipolar.

00:38:56Marc:Right.

00:38:57Guest:Yeah.

00:38:58Guest:He was a manic guy.

00:39:00Marc:Right.

00:39:01Marc:But it was fun.

00:39:01Guest:Oh, it was mostly fun.

00:39:03Guest:But you ask me, were there a crisis?

00:39:06Guest:Yes.

00:39:06Guest:He could not hide his misery.

00:39:11Guest:He couldn't hide it.

00:39:12Guest:When he was down.

00:39:13Guest:Yeah.

00:39:14Guest:He would pretend to be other people.

00:39:16Guest:We cross-dressed a lot.

00:39:18Guest:And when one of the shows I did, I helped him do his K-Rock big spectacular show.

00:39:25Guest:L.A.

00:39:25Guest:show featuring a lot of people.

00:39:27Guest:He was the host.

00:39:28Guest:And I helped him get his clothes.

00:39:29Guest:We always wanted to go to Western costume so he could be other people.

00:39:34Marc:He really committed.

00:39:35Guest:He escaped himself, though.

00:39:36Marc:He was escaping himself.

00:39:38Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:39:38Marc:Well, I mean, that's another question, I guess.

00:39:40Marc:And just in light of the reputation of some of these guys.

00:39:43Marc:Not in terms of sex, but in terms of drugs and stuff.

00:39:46Marc:I mean, it must have been somewhat menacing.

00:39:48Marc:I mean, you're painting a pretty starry picture about it, and it is the romantic idea that I want to have.

00:39:54Marc:I'm a big rock and roll guy, but I have to assume that sometimes the drugs got scary.

00:39:59Guest:Well, for me, I was not an addict.

00:40:01Marc:No, but being around it.

00:40:03Guest:Oh, yeah, I was around it.

00:40:04Guest:But early days, Jimmy Page was not doing drugs.

00:40:09Guest:He was primping in the mirror.

00:40:11Guest:I mean, I knew them all the way through their career, and I saw him really slide down into all kinds of drugs, and it was worrisome to watch.

00:40:21Guest:But look at him now.

00:40:22Guest:He's this fine gentleman.

00:40:23Marc:Sure.

00:40:24Marc:If they survive and clean up a little bit, they usually do all right.

00:40:28Guest:A lot of them didn't survive, and I lost a lot of friends, of course.

00:40:32Guest:So there's obviously a lot of darkness involved, and it mostly involved drugs, yeah.

00:40:38Guest:But I was not addictive.

00:40:40Guest:It was such a blessing.

00:40:41Guest:I got my mom's side of the genetics, and I tried everything.

00:40:45Guest:I did the stuff with them, but I stopped when they left town.

00:40:50Guest:It wasn't like I had to keep doing things.

00:40:52Guest:Coke or whatever it was.

00:40:54Marc:When you know that you're like, you know, the L.A.

00:40:56Marc:girl, you know, how does that kind of fact, how does that play into the idea that you have a, you know, that you have a relationship?

00:41:05Marc:I mean, it's different.

00:41:06Guest:Well, we had a relationship, totally.

00:41:08Guest:It was very intimate.

00:41:09Guest:It was very warm.

00:41:09Marc:It was totally loving.

00:41:12Guest:Well, you know, I'd see other people, too.

00:41:15Guest:I was single, you know, when I was seeing Keith Moon, Waylon Jennings, and...

00:41:20Guest:Waylon too, huh?

00:41:21Guest:And Mick.

00:41:21Guest:So I was seeing these people.

00:41:23Guest:Well, with Mick and Jimmy and I was a bit of a triangle because Mick would, when I finally met him, I was dancing with Miss Mercy to the Flying Burrito Brothers at the Corral, a tiny little club in Topanga.

00:41:36Guest:What's Miss Mercy?

00:41:37Guest:We were all Miss.

00:41:38Guest:Tiny Tim, when he met all us girls, called us Miss Pamela, Miss Mercy, Miss Sparky and all that.

00:41:43Marc:How was Tiny Tim?

00:41:43Marc:Nice guy?

00:41:44Guest:Nice.

00:41:44Guest:He was the best.

00:41:45Guest:He was the real thing.

00:41:47Guest:Boy, talk about a lunatic.

00:41:49Guest:But sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet.

00:41:52Guest:Quite a story there.

00:41:53Guest:But Miss Mercy and I were dancing to the Flying Breeder Brothers, my favorite band of all time.

00:41:59Guest:People ask me, that's who it is.

00:42:01Guest:And the Stones all walked into this tiny little dump because Graham Parsons, Keith Richards were really close.

00:42:09Guest:It was a bromance before the word existed.

00:42:12Marc:But do you think that Keith took them down?

00:42:14Marc:Do you think that Keith?

00:42:15Guest:No, Graham took himself down.

00:42:17Guest:Terrible addict, yeah.

00:42:18Marc:Oh, really?

00:42:19Guest:And he had a lot of money.

00:42:20Marc:Because he was a trust fund kid.

00:42:21Guest:Yeah, so every year he'd pick up $333,000 down in Florida, which now, how much would that be?

00:42:28Guest:Yeah, a lot.

00:42:29Guest:A lot.

00:42:29Guest:And it was gone by the end of that year because he was very generous.

00:42:32Guest:He paid all the rents of the bands.

00:42:34Guest:He bought everyone drugs.

00:42:36Guest:But anyway, that's another story.

00:42:38Guest:Oh, yeah, sort of a sad story.

00:42:39Guest:Yeah, it's a real sad story.

00:42:41Guest:I miss him all the time.

00:42:42Guest:But Mick came onto the dance floor because he'd met Mercy in San Francisco.

00:42:48Guest:And he said, who is your beautiful friend?

00:42:51Guest:So then I started seeing Mick.

00:42:54Guest:But I was already in love with Jimmy Page.

00:42:56Guest:And he was on the road.

00:42:58Guest:And so for several weeks, the Stones were in town recording.

00:43:02Guest:I would go visit Mick.

00:43:03Guest:And I loved Mick Taylor, too.

00:43:04Guest:We became really good friends.

00:43:06Guest:And Mercy and I would go hang out with Mick and Keith.

00:43:08Guest:Mick Taylor seems like a sweet guy.

00:43:10Guest:The best.

00:43:11Guest:My favorite guitar player.

00:43:12Guest:He's great, yeah.

00:43:13Guest:Him and Hendrix.

00:43:15Guest:But Mick kept trying so hard.

00:43:17Guest:I did make out with him, and I did let him put hickeys all over my legs.

00:43:22Guest:But I wouldn't sleep with him because I would say, you have to be true to Jimmy.

00:43:26Guest:Oh, really?

00:43:27Guest:And Mick kept saying, come on, he's not being true to you.

00:43:30Guest:Sorry, it's just not happening.

00:43:32Guest:And I believed Jimmy.

00:43:34Guest:I was very naive.

00:43:35Guest:I still am in some ways.

00:43:36Guest:But anyway, when I found out that he was not being true to me on the road, I said, fuck it, and I slept with Mick.

00:43:42Marc:Now when you're sleeping, your experience sexually with all these different rock gods, I mean, are some better than others?

00:43:52Guest:I don't ever answer that question.

00:43:55Guest:I do rock and roll tours of Hollywood, and some people want to know how big someone was or who was the best, who was the best.

00:44:03Guest:And I don't compare.

00:44:05Guest:I never compared.

00:44:06Guest:For me, when I was with these people, I was so thrilled.

00:44:09Guest:It was such a heightened experience that I didn't compare one to another.

00:44:13Guest:You didn't think about it.

00:44:14Guest:Yeah.

00:44:15Guest:I didn't think of it in that way.

00:44:16Marc:It was all electric anyway.

00:44:17Guest:Yes, it was.

00:44:18Marc:There was a lot happening beyond the sex.

00:44:23Marc:I was thrilled.

00:44:24Guest:I remember the first time I was with Mick, I was looking up, and I could not even think about anything below the waist.

00:44:30Guest:I was looking at his face going, oh, my God, this is finally happening.

00:44:34Marc:Yeah, hypnotize.

00:44:35Guest:Because I was such a huge fan so early.

00:44:37Guest:But then I saw him off and on for a while.

00:44:41Guest:And when I went to England, I spent a lot of quality time with him.

00:44:46Marc:But when you see them, is it like one of those things like, do you get those calls where you're like, when it's sort of like, you don't even know they're in town and you get a call at like 11 at night, like, what's up?

00:45:00Marc:Were you around?

00:45:01Marc:Is some of it like that?

00:45:02Guest:We always knew they were in town.

00:45:03Guest:Okay, right.

00:45:04Guest:Yeah, the groupie tom-toms.

00:45:05Guest:Yeah.

00:45:06Guest:And we'd expect them and I would get notes and letters.

00:45:08Guest:I have letters from so many of these people.

00:45:11Guest:We used to write letters back then.

00:45:12Guest:Really?

00:45:13Guest:People don't realize it was just a relationship.

00:45:16Guest:It wasn't like... I mean, of course, there were groupies, one-night stands, one-hour stands, 10-minute stands.

00:45:21Guest:That was not me.

00:45:22Marc:Right.

00:45:23Marc:You guys, the crew of you out here had sort of a... It seemed like there was sort of a community of support and also that you had these reputations of...

00:45:36Marc:I wouldn't say it's maternal, but there was something nurturing about the whole trip.

00:45:41Guest:Yes, we were totally nurturing.

00:45:43Guest:I sewed buttons on their shirts.

00:45:45Guest:I ironed their shirts.

00:45:46Guest:I took them shopping.

00:45:47Guest:I brought them food.

00:45:51Guest:People think of a hotel room.

00:45:54Guest:It was much more than that.

00:45:55Guest:It was the real thing.

00:45:57Marc:You had a good time.

00:45:58Marc:Absolutely.

00:45:59Guest:And I got my heart broken, too.

00:46:01Marc:Who broke it?

00:46:02Guest:Jimmy Page.

00:46:04Guest:But Mick, Waylon Jennings, Keith, these were people that I knew I wasn't going to marry.

00:46:09Guest:I was going to have fun.

00:46:10Guest:You could have fun in those days and have sex with people and not guilt trip yourself.

00:46:16Guest:I mean, I did for a little while because I'm a Jesus girl.

00:46:19Guest:So I have him tattooed on my back along with Elvis.

00:46:22Guest:But for a while, I questioned the morality of what I was doing.

00:46:27Guest:And I looked through the Bible and I tried to find somewhere where it said fornication sucks or whatever.

00:46:33Guest:I couldn't find it.

00:46:34Marc:I think there's also the weight of how women are supposed to fit into the whole trip.

00:46:39Guest:Totally.

00:46:40Guest:And we were coming out of the 50s and had to express ourselves as we were the early feminists, of course, only we were not perceived that way.

00:46:49Guest:Yeah.

00:46:49Guest:We were perceived, like I said, as submissive sluts to these rock gods.

00:46:54Guest:But it was the opposite.

00:46:56Guest:We were doing what we wanted to do, going after what we wanted.

00:47:00Marc:I think that's changing.

00:47:02Marc:I feel like because of culture now for different reasons, it sort of has to do with...

00:47:07Marc:empowerment and you know too much porn and a lot of different things it just it does seem that that that women are more able and i'm generalizing to kind of fuck like dudes uh a little more you know just for fun and to walk away from it that's coming back you think it's coming back i do think it's coming back a little bit that there's a demystification around sex and and the expectations uh are not all loaded up uh like they used to be

00:47:34Guest:Well, when I had to go on Oprah and Geraldo and shows like that, it was late 80s, and everyone was afraid of AIDS, and that colored so much of my story and the stories I was told in the book.

00:47:48Marc:Oh, because of the timing?

00:47:49Guest:Yes, because of the timing.

00:47:50Marc:Well, I mean, back in the day, when I spoke to people of that era who were out there fucking, I mean, VD was sort of common.

00:48:00Marc:Like you got it, you dealt with it, and you moved on.

00:48:02Guest:It was no big deal.

00:48:03Guest:I only got it one time, and it was not from a rock star.

00:48:07Guest:So people just think it was just a tawdry, wicked, it wasn't like that.

00:48:12Guest:And maybe for some people it was, not for me or the people I knew.

00:48:15Marc:It was around.

00:48:16Guest:It was around.

00:48:17Guest:Oh, people were having orgies.

00:48:19Guest:I had plenty of people trying to get me involved in three ways and four ways in orgies, but I was not into that.

00:48:25Guest:I'm very much a one-on-one.

00:48:26Marc:Well, what was that scene at that place, the experience that you said was so weird?

00:48:29Marc:Was that like an orgy trip?

00:48:31Guest:It was.

00:48:31Guest:There was one night when Zeppelin were there and Richard Cole.

00:48:36Guest:It was always the roadies with them, with the fish and all the things you hear about them.

00:48:41Guest:It was never the band.

00:48:42Guest:The fish?

00:48:43Guest:Well, you know, the mud shark story.

00:48:45Guest:I don't.

00:48:45Guest:Tell it to me.

00:48:46Guest:Well.

00:48:48No?

00:48:48What?

00:48:48Guest:I was not there, believe me.

00:48:51Guest:But there were stories about, in Seattle, you could fish off of your balcony at the hotel where they stayed.

00:48:58Guest:And they would use these fish on these girls.

00:49:01Guest:Use them?

00:49:03Guest:Oh, okay.

00:49:03Guest:Use your imagination, okay?

00:49:05Guest:Yeah.

00:49:06Guest:And it wasn't just Zeppelin doing stuff like that, but these were the kind of girls who just would say anything to be with these guys.

00:49:15Guest:But it was not...

00:49:16Marc:Me.

00:49:17Marc:No, I get it, but knowing that those guys were those guys, it didn't... Okay, I've got to go back.

00:49:23Guest:It was not the band.

00:49:24Guest:The only person in the band who participated in that stuff was Bonzo, the drummer, and only when he was completely bombed out of his mind.

00:49:33Guest:Yeah.

00:49:34Guest:Right.

00:49:35Guest:And Robert, one time, he would be bait.

00:49:40Guest:He would pretend he was going to somehow get involved and then leave.

00:49:43Guest:They never got involved in that stuff, but the roadies all did and John Bonham if he was drunk enough.

00:49:49Guest:Right.

00:49:49Guest:So don't think it was Jimmy or Robert or certainly not John Paul Jones.

00:49:53Marc:Right.

00:49:54Marc:Well, I mean, just like there's this sort of like weird kind of understanding where you have you have a genuine relationship with these guys and it's nice and you have there.

00:50:02Marc:You feel a certain amount of respect, but you know that they're out there being monsters.

00:50:05Guest:Well, like I said, it wasn't the actual guys.

00:50:07Marc:Right.

00:50:08Guest:And I loved Bonzo, but he was not my boyfriend.

00:50:10Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:50:11Guest:He was married.

00:50:12Guest:Yeah.

00:50:12Guest:You know?

00:50:13Guest:Sure.

00:50:13Guest:But I was treated like a queen.

00:50:16Guest:Yeah.

00:50:16Guest:They took me to see Elvis in Vegas.

00:50:18Guest:Sat in the front row.

00:50:19Guest:The Zeppelin guys?

00:50:20Guest:Yeah, Jimmy and Robert sat right in between them.

00:50:22Guest:Yeah.

00:50:22Guest:Seeing Elvis.

00:50:23Guest:How was that?

00:50:23Guest:In the black leather stuff.

00:50:24Marc:Oh, did you go meet him?

00:50:26Guest:Oh, my God.

00:50:26Guest:No, I was so angry.

00:50:28Guest:And I think he was afraid I was going to run off with Elvis because Red West came up because he knew I was such a fan.

00:50:34Guest:Red West came up behind after the show and said, would you want to meet Elvis?

00:50:38Guest:And I can still see it.

00:50:39Guest:He turned around and said, oh, no, thank you.

00:50:43Marc:Wow.

00:50:43Guest:And Robert and I looked at each other like, what is he saying?

00:50:47Marc:Red, the king of the roadies.

00:50:50Guest:Yeah, Red West, absolutely.

00:50:53Marc:I'm curious about Tiny Tim.

00:50:54Marc:You said that's sort of a weird story.

00:50:55Guest:Well, it's a fun story because he obviously had OCD before anyone knew it was such a thing.

00:51:00Guest:So Miss Lucy, one of the GTOs, had met him in New York, and she was already Miss Lucy.

00:51:06Guest:She had the miss because they'd met in New York.

00:51:08Guest:And she took the rest of us to meet him at Sunset Marquis when he came to visit his first gig out here, actually.

00:51:14Marc:From London?

00:51:15Marc:Where was he from?

00:51:15Guest:New York.

00:51:16Marc:Oh, he's from New York.

00:51:17Marc:I just remember him when I was a kid.

00:51:19Marc:I remember kind of being fascinated with him, and he seemed like an oddball.

00:51:23Guest:Very much so.

00:51:24Marc:Almost like Andy Kaufman.

00:51:25Guest:Yeah, very much like that.

00:51:27Guest:So we went to visit him, and she knocked on the door, and she said...

00:51:31Guest:The GTOs are here.

00:51:32Guest:And he went, oh, oh, wait a minute.

00:51:35Guest:Oh, just a minute.

00:51:36Guest:You know, he was really like that.

00:51:38Guest:So he had to take a shower.

00:51:40Guest:He said, let me take a shower first.

00:51:41Guest:So we waited in the hall.

00:51:43Guest:Then he opened it up, freshly showered.

00:51:45Guest:We went in to visit him and we sat around and he was so petrified with all these girls that he was about to faint.

00:51:53Guest:And she fanned him with a fan.

00:51:55Marc:Was he kind of a... What was he?

00:52:01Marc:It was almost he was bordering on being a drag act.

00:52:06Guest:He was sort of.

00:52:06Guest:He wore lipstick and eye makeup.

00:52:09Guest:No one was doing that.

00:52:10Guest:And he sang in a falsetto.

00:52:11Guest:He spoke in a falsetto, too.

00:52:12Guest:Interesting.

00:52:13Guest:And then he kept having to take showers.

00:52:16Guest:Every 20 minutes, he, oh, I have to take a shower.

00:52:19Guest:And he'd come back.

00:52:20Guest:But we spent the whole day there with him.

00:52:21Guest:And at one point, he...

00:52:24Guest:He said, I have a secret.

00:52:26Guest:I want to show you something.

00:52:27Guest:And he took us into this tiny little kitchen, Sunset Marquis, and he pulled out frozen hockey pucks out of the freezer and a hockey stick from behind the fridge, and we played hockey on that little floor.

00:52:40Guest:And he loved that.

00:52:41Guest:He thought that was the most fun ever.

00:52:43Guest:Tiny Tim.

00:52:44Guest:Yeah.

00:52:45Guest:And then he said, here's my real secret.

00:52:47Guest:And he opened the drawer, and under the silverware, he had hidden all these candy bars.

00:52:51Guest:Huh.

00:52:52Guest:Because my manager thinks I'm fat, but I'm just pleasingly plump.

00:52:57Marc:Oh, my God.

00:52:57Guest:I remember these quotes because I wrote them in my diary.

00:53:00Guest:I kept diaries for the whole thing.

00:53:02Guest:Yeah.

00:53:02Guest:My whole life.

00:53:03Marc:Yeah.

00:53:04Marc:And you still got them, right?

00:53:05Guest:Yes.

00:53:06Guest:Oh, I still have.

00:53:07Guest:They should be in the Smithsonian.

00:53:08Marc:What about Jim Morrison?

00:53:09Guest:Well, I knew him.

00:53:11Guest:Yeah.

00:53:11Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:53:12Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:53:12Guest:I made out with him.

00:53:13Marc:Yeah.

00:53:13Guest:Rolled around with him.

00:53:14Marc:Yeah, but you saw the Doors back in the day?

00:53:17Guest:Oh, yeah, plenty.

00:53:18Guest:They were the house band at the Whiskey, which was my home away from home.

00:53:21Marc:And how was it when you saw them, when they first started coming around, did you realize there's nothing like this?

00:53:26Guest:I had never, of course, never seen anything like it, never saw anything.

00:53:30Guest:Jim already, even before the first album came out, he was groaning and moaning and rolling around on the floor and laying flat on his back and singing.

00:53:38Guest:We had never seen anything like that.

00:53:40Guest:Yeah.

00:53:41Guest:And just sexy.

00:53:43Guest:Good God.

00:53:44Guest:And, of course, I had to at least get my hands on him a little bit, you know.

00:53:49Guest:But I was so young then.

00:53:51Guest:That was when I was super young.

00:53:54Marc:So making out was enough in a lot of cases.

00:53:56Guest:Oh, yes, that's what I was going to say, too.

00:53:58Guest:There was no demands made on us girls from these guys in the mid-60s to the 67, 8.

00:54:05Guest:It was like, yeah, let's just have fun.

00:54:08Guest:Let's make out.

00:54:09Guest:I was very good at oral sex, which was something I...

00:54:13Guest:enjoyed doing.

00:54:14Guest:Yeah.

00:54:15Guest:I wanted to show my respect and love for their music and that's how I did it.

00:54:19Guest:But I wanted to hang on to my virginity until I was in love.

00:54:22Guest:You think that's funny, huh?

00:54:23Marc:No, it makes perfect sense.

00:54:26Marc:I don't think it's funny.

00:54:29Marc:It's one of those things where my brain always goes to, well, I'm sure they enjoyed that.

00:54:35Guest:They did.

00:54:36Marc:They did.

00:54:36Marc:They must have been great.

00:54:37Guest:And you know, when Bill Clinton said, I did not have sex with that woman, I knew just what he was talking about.

00:54:42Guest:She just gave him head.

00:54:43Guest:That's all.

00:54:43Guest:That is not full sex at all.

00:54:45Marc:Sure.

00:54:46Marc:It's really just flirting up until intercourse.

00:54:48Marc:It's foreplay.

00:54:48Marc:Yeah.

00:54:49Marc:Yeah.

00:54:51Marc:I get it.

00:54:51Marc:Yeah.

00:54:52Marc:Well, so now as you got older, when did you, you got married?

00:54:57Guest:I married Michael Debar.

00:54:58Guest:I got my Prince Rock and Roll Charming.

00:55:01Guest:We were together 14 years and we're best friends to this day.

00:55:04Guest:Oh, that's nice.

00:55:05Guest:We have a son, Nick.

00:55:05Guest:He's just turned 40.

00:55:07Guest:It's unbelievable.

00:55:09Guest:And yes, we had a rock and roll life.

00:55:11Guest:That's what my second book's about.

00:55:12Guest:Yeah.

00:55:12Guest:I'm writing my sixth book now.

00:55:14Guest:What's this one about?

00:55:15Yeah.

00:55:15Guest:I can't talk about that one.

00:55:17Guest:Actually, there's a seventh book, too, which is Sex, God, and Rock and Roll.

00:55:20Guest:It's my spiritual journey.

00:55:22Guest:Sex, God, and rock and roll.

00:55:23Guest:Because they're all alongside each other.

00:55:24Guest:Where do you stand with God these days?

00:55:28Guest:Wow.

00:55:28Guest:I think you're God and I'm God.

00:55:30Guest:We're all God.

00:55:31Guest:And we have to remember that or we're fucked.

00:55:32Guest:Right.

00:55:34Guest:That's my philosophy.

00:55:35Guest:It's in all of us.

00:55:36Guest:Yes.

00:55:36Guest:Totally.

00:55:37Guest:And in this microphone and this table.

00:55:39Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:55:40Marc:So you've detached yourself from any organized type.

00:55:43Guest:Well, I still love Jesus because he was my main man.

00:55:46Marc:You do?

00:55:47Guest:Yeah.

00:55:48Guest:He didn't do anything wrong.

00:55:49Guest:It's not his fault that his name has been blasphemed for centuries.

00:55:53Marc:Right.

00:55:54Marc:He took the hit for everybody.

00:55:55Guest:I know.

00:55:55Guest:God love him.

00:55:56Guest:No.

00:55:57Guest:And he was a hippie boy and Mary Magdalene was his muse.

00:56:01Guest:And, you know, I'm a big Jesus lover.

00:56:03Marc:Yeah.

00:56:04Marc:So you just integrated that.

00:56:05Guest:But not religious, not church.

00:56:06Marc:But you've integrated it all into your spiritual.

00:56:08Guest:Totally.

00:56:09Guest:And it's the story of mine.

00:56:10Guest:I was born again at eight years old.

00:56:12Guest:And it's my whole story through all the amazing Yogananda, Krishnamurti, all the things.

00:56:18Guest:It's a side of me most people don't know.

00:56:20Marc:But you did that.

00:56:20Marc:You were a searcher all the way through.

00:56:22Guest:All the way through.

00:56:23Marc:Like you did you do.

00:56:25Marc:Well, it's like you didn't get caught up with Manson or something.

00:56:28Yeah.

00:56:28Guest:Well, he was a fraud.

00:56:30Marc:Yeah.

00:56:31Guest:I never met him, but I knew people who knew him, and he was just a fraud.

00:56:34Guest:He was almost like Vito, only Vito wasn't that evil.

00:56:37Guest:But he wanted to be the center of attention.

00:56:39Guest:He found out how to do it, was to grow your hair out.

00:56:42Guest:Yeah, and figure out some spiritual things.

00:56:45Guest:Well, there was very little spiritual things.

00:56:47Marc:Well, he figured out a racket.

00:56:48Marc:Yeah, like the language of a spiritual leader.

00:56:51Guest:Yeah, it's like a leader.

00:56:52Marc:But you never ended up there at a party or anyone?

00:56:54Guest:Never.

00:56:54Guest:But that was a bring down.

00:56:58Guest:Oh yeah, that brought down the hippie movement, the love-ins and all those things.

00:57:03Guest:It was way too real.

00:57:05Guest:It was a wake-up call.

00:57:07Guest:Yeah, it was.

00:57:08Guest:And Altamont happened around the same time.

00:57:10Guest:I was with the Stones at Altamont.

00:57:12Guest:Get the fuck out of here.

00:57:13Guest:You were?

00:57:14Guest:Yes, talk about not really wanting to be there.

00:57:17Marc:I got this sense that because of the bad drugs that were going around and just the intensity of

00:57:23Marc:the nervousness of the acts that, you know, you could definitely feel that things weren't going right through the show.

00:57:29Guest:Well, I left before they came on.

00:57:30Guest:That's how bad the vibe was.

00:57:32Guest:So, yes.

00:57:32Guest:Right.

00:57:33Marc:Because, like, Grill Marcus said that, you know, when they went back up on stage and they knew that they were in trouble, like, that they had never played so intensely well.

00:57:43Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:57:44Marc:Like, you know, when the guy went down and the shit got out of control but the Stones kept playing.

00:57:50Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:57:51Marc:that they were playing to save their asses in a way.

00:57:54Guest:Yes, it's amazing they didn't leave the stage.

00:57:56Guest:I mean, it's really, I give them a lot of credit.

00:57:59Guest:But afterwards, I walked into this room, this hotel room, they were all in there, just them.

00:58:05Marc:In San Francisco?

00:58:05Guest:In San Francisco.

00:58:07Guest:It was them, a couple roadies, and Michelle Phillips was there.

00:58:11Guest:And me.

00:58:12Guest:And I walked in and the vibe was so... And when I called, Mick said, did you hear what happened?

00:58:19Guest:And I said, no.

00:58:20Guest:He said, just come up.

00:58:22Guest:Come up to the hotel.

00:58:23Guest:Right?

00:58:23Guest:Because I was seeing him.

00:58:24Guest:I was seeing him then.

00:58:26Guest:So then I found out what happened.

00:58:27Guest:They were all sitting around talking about it.

00:58:29Guest:Mick was saying, I'm not going to do this anymore.

00:58:31Guest:I've had it.

00:58:31Guest:I'm finished.

00:58:32Guest:With what?

00:58:33Guest:Performing.

00:58:34Guest:Live performing.

00:58:35Guest:Yes.

00:58:35Guest:It was a...

00:58:35Marc:heavy scene well they hadn't been to the states in 66 since you saw them then the first or the second they hadn't oh right and it was sort of like even now they had to make this transition into hippie land so what had happened was you know they had aligned themselves with the dead a little bit and the idea was first to be at golden gate park but all that stuff fell through for a lot of different reasons right but mick wanted to get they he was doing a movie with the with the penny backer right but it was a great movie

00:59:01Marc:But it was originally supposed to be a pro-Stones documentary, right?

00:59:05Marc:Yes, of course, doing a good thing for the fans.

00:59:07Guest:Yeah, and it just got out of hand, and the book sort of hangs it on Mick's insistence to do the show anyways, knowing that that place was... Well, he didn't want to let the fans down, and that was real, because Mercy and I were hanging out with them, and she does tarot cards, and she read their cards one night in front of the fireplace, and she said it ended with the tower...

00:59:30Guest:And she said, are you guys doing something that's kind of secretive?

00:59:35Guest:And Keith said, yeah, we're doing this free show.

00:59:39Guest:And she said, I don't think you should do it.

00:59:41Guest:And they both said, no, it's too late.

00:59:43Guest:It's already all planned.

00:59:45Marc:I mean, the plan was different.

00:59:47Guest:It was so awful there.

00:59:48Guest:It was so terrible.

00:59:49Guest:I left right after the Burrito Brothers played.

00:59:53Marc:More people died there, more like the one guy got stabbed, but a couple of people got killed in a car, and a couple of like, oh, yeah, man.

00:59:59Marc:So the Burrito Brothers, like yeah, he was a pretty beautiful guy, huh, Graham?

01:00:03Guest:Yes, Graham was another life-changing person.

01:00:06Guest:He sat me down one night, me and Mercy actually,

01:00:09Guest:Played us George Jones, Waylon Jennings, who I went after, Merle Haggard, Willie, all of them.

01:00:16Guest:He's made us listen.

01:00:18Guest:He would carry that little portable record player around and make people listen to this.

01:00:23Guest:Because I never would have.

01:00:25Guest:I saw George Jones.

01:00:26Guest:He had this corny crew cut and those stupid clothes, which, of course, I love now.

01:00:30Guest:And I wouldn't have considered it.

01:00:31Guest:But he made us.

01:00:33Guest:And I've been a country fan, real country forever.

01:00:37Marc:I think he did that for rock.

01:00:38Guest:Yeah, he sure did.

01:00:40Marc:Like he integrated it, man.

01:00:42Guest:He, you know, country honk and send me dead flowers.

01:00:45Guest:No eagles without Graham.

01:00:46Guest:Absolutely.

01:00:47Guest:And he's not in the fucking Hall of Fame.

01:00:49Guest:Excuse my French.

01:00:50Guest:I don't understand that.

01:00:52Guest:It's so lame.

01:00:53Marc:Yeah.

01:00:54Marc:So how is your life now?

01:00:56Marc:Good?

01:00:56Guest:It's great.

01:00:57Guest:I teach women's writing workshops all over the country.

01:01:00Guest:You get a good turnout.

01:01:01Guest:I'm leaving tomorrow for Fairmount, Indiana because I'm a James Dean nut.

01:01:06Guest:He's also tattooed on me.

01:01:08Guest:I love rebels.

01:01:09Guest:Yeah.

01:01:09Guest:And I teach there and I teach Chicago, New York, Nashville, Chicago.

01:01:13Guest:I mean, so many places.

01:01:14Marc:And what is it like?

01:01:15Marc:London, Toronto.

01:01:17Marc:You rent a space and people come?

01:01:19Guest:No, I teach in a student's home.

01:01:20Guest:Yeah, it's all very intimate and it's memoir.

01:01:23Guest:Women want to write about themselves.

01:01:26Guest:It's a very cathartic experience and just best friends are made.

01:01:31Guest:So much has happened that I didn't expect.

01:01:34Guest:I have made best friends out of it and they fall in love with each other.

01:01:37Guest:It's just magical stuff.

01:01:39Guest:And I do the rock tours.

01:01:41Guest:What are those exactly?

01:01:42Guest:I'm with the band Rock Tour based around my first book.

01:01:46Guest:I take people in a van.

01:01:48Guest:I have a great driver named Kip Brown who's also a musician.

01:01:50Marc:So is this your business?

01:01:51Marc:You own the van?

01:01:51Guest:Oh, no.

01:01:53Guest:No, I'm still fairly a hand-to-mouth rock girl.

01:01:56Guest:Uh-huh.

01:01:57Guest:Yeah.

01:01:57Guest:But I take them all around and show them where all these things happen to me.

01:02:01Guest:Every six weeks, I take about a dozen people around Hollywood, Laurel Canyon.

01:02:06Guest:I go all the way to Century City where my favorite Keith Moon story happened.

01:02:11Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:02:11Guest:Which one is that?

01:02:12Guest:Well, it's pretty incredible.

01:02:14Guest:Okay.

01:02:14Guest:It was one of his more innocent pranks, but we had to stay in the Century Plaza because he was kicked out of every single hotel in Hollywood.

01:02:22Marc:For breaking things?

01:02:24Guest:Yeah, well, many, way worse than that.

01:02:27Guest:So we went to Western Costume first with Dougal, his guy, and he rented a long red velvet cloak trimmed in ermine, and we went to the Century Plaza Hotel where all the presidents stay.

01:02:41Guest:He'd never tried that one.

01:02:42Guest:And we pretended, he pretended he was a count from some non-existent country.

01:02:47Guest:And they believed us.

01:02:48Guest:In those days, you know, they made up a country and we stayed there for two weeks.

01:02:53Guest:So one afternoon he said, here, stand out on the balcony.

01:02:56Guest:I'm going to show you something.

01:02:58Guest:And I was like, uh-oh.

01:02:59Guest:And I stood on the balcony and there he was hustling across the street.

01:03:02Guest:He was like a little gnome anyway.

01:03:05Guest:And he had a big giant box of Tide in his hands and he dumped it into the fountain across the street.

01:03:10Guest:This huge fountain.

01:03:12Guest:The Century City found him.

01:03:15Guest:And, of course, the bubbles went a block, two blocks in the air, rolled down all the streets, stopped all the traffic.

01:03:22Guest:Oh, it overflowed.

01:03:22Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:03:22Guest:And he laughed.

01:03:24Guest:He was so gleeful because he got away with that prank.

01:03:27Guest:And it was kind of, for him, a pretty clean prank.

01:03:29Marc:Yeah, it seems relatively innocent.

01:03:31Marc:Yeah.

01:03:32Guest:I'm sure the people trying to get to their meetings didn't think so.

01:03:35Marc:Right, right.

01:03:36Marc:But that seems kind of fun.

01:03:38Marc:So you show people that place.

01:03:39Marc:And did you ever get into trouble with the wives of any of these dudes or girlfriends?

01:03:43Guest:I only had one married guy, and that was Waylon Jennings.

01:03:47Guest:And in those days, you did not know they were married.

01:03:49Guest:They took off their ring.

01:03:50Guest:That's all it took.

01:03:52Guest:So I didn't know Waylon Jennings was married.

01:03:54Guest:How would I know that?

01:03:55Guest:And he had just married Jesse Coulter.

01:03:57Guest:He was a naughty man.

01:03:59Guest:Boy, what a trip that was.

01:04:01Guest:Yeah?

01:04:02Guest:Why?

01:04:02Guest:Because he was out of my element.

01:04:05Marc:The country thing.

01:04:06Guest:He was a big, but that was a big quiff.

01:04:09Marc:Yeah.

01:04:10Guest:What do you mean?

01:04:10Guest:He was not a long-haired guy at the time.

01:04:12Guest:Right, right.

01:04:12Guest:He wasn't shaggy.

01:04:13Guest:Right.

01:04:13Guest:He was not an outlaw yet.

01:04:15Guest:Yeah.

01:04:15Guest:But he really was, of course.

01:04:16Guest:And he had these black leather wrist bands and this squint and cigarette hangout.

01:04:22Guest:But I loved his music so much, I wanted to get to know him.

01:04:25Marc:Yeah.

01:04:25Marc:He's great.

01:04:26Guest:Yeah.

01:04:26Guest:So I went to a session after seeing him play and throwing flowers at his feet in my underwear.

01:04:31Marc:It's quite a story.

01:04:32Marc:Big sales pitch, huh?

01:04:35Guest:It worked, okay?

01:04:37Guest:So he came over and I opened the door at 5 a.m.

01:04:39Guest:one morning and there he was.

01:04:40Guest:And I went, oh boy, am I in for it.

01:04:42Guest:But it was great.

01:04:43Guest:He was sweet and gentle and lovely and wild, of course.

01:04:47Guest:And the next morning he wandered around my...

01:04:49Guest:my little living room looking at the long-haired boys on the wall, and he was, do you really like all this long hair and everything?

01:04:56Guest:Yeah.

01:04:56Guest:And I said, of course.

01:04:57Guest:Oh, yeah, we love to rub our hands through it.

01:05:01Guest:Anyway, he grew his hair out, okay?

01:05:05Marc:I talked to his kid.

01:05:06Marc:His kid's all right.

01:05:06Guest:Oh, I love Shooter.

01:05:07Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:05:08Guest:He told me Waylon was still talking about me right before he died, so that made me feel good.

01:05:12Marc:Oh, you made an impression.

01:05:14Guest:Yeah, of course.

01:05:15Guest:I always made an impression.

01:05:17Guest:I hope I still do.

01:05:18Marc:This is very memorable for me, Pamela.

01:05:23Guest:Okay, good.

01:05:24Guest:I'm going to tell you the best day of my life, though, and I'll make it brief.

01:05:27Guest:That's all right.

01:05:27Guest:It was Bob Dylan's 50th birthday party.

01:05:29Guest:I got to meet all the Wilburys.

01:05:30Guest:Yeah.

01:05:46Guest:Your book.

01:05:47Guest:Yeah, I'm with the band.

01:05:48Guest:Then he introduced me to his mechanic who was sitting next to him, and he said he works with engines the way you and I work with words.

01:05:55Guest:George freaking Harrison.

01:05:56Guest:Then I did give Dylan the book for his birthday.

01:05:59Guest:I saw him at a gig.

01:06:00Guest:That's when he let people backstage.

01:06:02Guest:And he said, I read your book cover to cover, and you're a good writer.

01:06:05Marc:Oh, there you go.

01:06:07Guest:Isn't that wonderful?

01:06:08Guest:Hell yeah, it's wonderful.

01:06:10Marc:But that was the first time you met him at his party?

01:06:12Marc:I could have died.

01:06:13Marc:Yeah, I bet.

01:06:14Guest:No, I met him a little bit before that.

01:06:16Guest:He was dating a girlfriend of mine, and it was one of his very rare social times.

01:06:21Guest:He came to a couple parties.

01:06:23Guest:What age was he?

01:06:23Guest:He was just turning 50.

01:06:25Guest:Oh, okay.

01:06:25Guest:That's when the hoodie thing and all that.

01:06:28Guest:Yeah, he's a character, right?

01:06:29Guest:I never miss him play.

01:06:30Guest:Never.

01:06:31Guest:No, you always go.

01:06:32Guest:I saw him in 65.

01:06:33Guest:I walked down to the front of the stage.

01:06:35Guest:It was like I was in a trance.

01:06:37Guest:No one was going to keep me from Bob.

01:06:39Guest:And I was the only person who walked down there.

01:06:41Guest:And they did not make me go back to my seat.

01:06:44Marc:And you just stood there?

01:06:45Guest:Yeah, for the whole show.

01:06:46Marc:Pretty mesmerizing dude.

01:06:48Guest:Yeah.

01:06:49Marc:Yeah.

01:06:50Marc:I would say so.

01:06:51Marc:Have you seen him recently?

01:06:51Marc:How's he doing?

01:06:52Guest:He's great.

01:06:54Marc:Yeah.

01:06:54Guest:I mean, I don't know him.

01:06:56Guest:Right, but you go to the shows.

01:06:57Guest:I go to the shows, absolutely.

01:06:59Guest:I never miss him.

01:07:00Marc:That's great.

01:07:01Marc:You're still a groupie.

01:07:03Guest:Absolutely.

01:07:03Guest:You've got to come see my license plate.

01:07:05Guest:That's what it says.

01:07:06Marc:Okay, I'll come.

01:07:07Guest:Thanks for talking to me, Pam.

01:07:09Guest:Thank you, Mark.

01:07:09Guest:I appreciate it.

01:07:11Yep.

01:07:16Marc:There you go.

01:07:17Marc:A little slice of history.

01:07:20Marc:Look, folks, I forgot to mention that I was cast in the Aretha Franklin biopic called Respect.

01:07:26Marc:Maybe I should talk about that next show.

01:07:30Marc:I'm going to play Jerry Wexler alongside Jennifer Hudson.

01:07:35Marc:So, yeah, that's happening.

01:07:38Marc:And now I'm going to play some straight guitar, old school.

01:07:41Marc:Look, I've been watching that country, Doc, and I'm not going to be ashamed of three chords anymore for my life.

01:07:47Marc:Three chords for life, motherfuckers.

01:07:49Marc:Maybe throw another one in for a transition and a different tone.

01:07:54Marc:Three chords for fucking life.

01:07:56Marc:This is just a Stratocaster turned all the way up on the lead position into an old-ass Fender amp, not completely cranked out.

01:08:05Marc:And it just sounds, you can fucking hear the machinery of electric guitar-ness.

01:08:13Thank you.

01:08:33Yeah.

01:09:35Marc:Boomer lives.