Episode 1058 - Marilu Henner
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you, what the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck nicks?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:It's Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:It's called WTF.
Marc:Welcome to it.
Marc:If you've never been here before, how's it going?
Marc:Mary Lou Henner is on the show today.
Marc:And hopefully, if everything works out correctly, Danny DeVito will be on Thursday.
Marc:Kind of a taxi themed week.
Marc:Just works out like that sometimes.
Marc:We'll see.
Marc:I have not recorded the Danny DeVito talk yet.
Marc:Anything could happen between now and when I have to record that.
Marc:But that's the plan.
Marc:Can you dig it?
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Also.
Marc:Had some date confusion, day and date confusion last, what was it?
Marc:What day is it?
Marc:On Thursday, when I announced my dates, I'm going to do it again correctly.
Marc:If you want to come see me, I'll be at the Merriam Theater in Philadelphia on Thursday, October 10th, the Kennedy Center in Washington, D.C.
Marc:on Friday, October 11th, and the Schubert Theater in Boston on Thursday.
Marc:on Saturday, October 12th.
Marc:All right, then I'm heading to Nashville at the James K. Polk Theater on Friday, October 18th, the Tabernacle in Atlanta on Saturday, October 19th, and the Masonic in San Francisco on Saturday, October 26th.
Marc:You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets, but I am going to be taping my special on Saturday,
Marc:Yep.
Marc:This is going to be on October 30th at the Red Cat Theater here in L.A.
Marc:It's a nice black box theater.
Marc:We're working on how it's going to all work there, how you can get tickets or whatever.
Marc:It's not huge.
Marc:It's going to be an intimate affair.
Marc:It's going to be unique.
Marc:And I'm going to talk to you.
Marc:That's how it's going to go down.
Marc:So...
Marc:If you want to free that date up to come, please do.
Marc:Tickets aren't quite available yet, but they're going to happen.
Marc:I'll let you know as soon as that happens.
Marc:All right?
Marc:Holy shit.
Marc:Isn't this exciting that president scumbag is being taken to task in a seemingly legitimate way?
Marc:No, I'm going to I'm going to pull seemingly right out of that sentence and say legit.
Marc:This is some legit sort of unconstitutional fucked up behavior for a president.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Not that that's a surprise, but it looks like it's got teeth and it's very it's very exciting.
Marc:I can't say satisfying because with the with the power of the propaganda machine, these worms are worm out of anything.
Marc:But it looks like the screws are being put to them pretty good.
Marc:And that's very satisfying.
Marc:And I'm sorry if this upsets any of you, even you people that somehow rationalize or justify this guy just because, you know, you're doing OK or because you're a Republican.
Marc:If you really, really what it comes down to, if you support this guy unconditionally or even conditionally, you're sort of anti-American.
Marc:You don't believe in our system.
Marc:And that seems to be the truth of the whole matter.
Marc:The more these people defend this guy, no matter what, the more clear it is that they fundamentally don't believe in the American system of government.
Marc:And that makes them un-American.
Marc:They can scream socialist and this and that all they want, but they are fundamentally un-American if they don't take this guy to task in a real way.
Marc:So that's how I see it.
Marc:That's how I'm going to frame it.
Marc:So look, folks, it's been a pretty good few days for me if I look at it correctly.
Marc:I've worked a long time.
Marc:I've worked hard on a few things outside of my comedy, outside of this podcast, things like playing guitar, things like acting.
Marc:And there's been some kind of I can acknowledge and see that I did all right.
Marc:And that's a good feeling.
Marc:If you do something and you succeeded at it or you look at it and you're like, did a pretty good job there.
Marc:Take a minute and appreciate it.
Marc:Will you?
Marc:Because what else?
Marc:Like, I mean, there's more to life, but Jesus Christ, you work hard on something and it works out.
Marc:You should go like, oh, look at that.
Marc:I did that.
Marc:I did that.
Marc:And it happened last week.
Marc:Patrick Stickles, Titus Andronicus, a guy who I like a lot, who's been on the show a couple of times.
Marc:I like his music.
Marc:He plays hard.
Marc:He's an earnest motherfucker.
Marc:He's smart.
Marc:He's funny.
Marc:He's tormented.
Marc:And I just I like him.
Marc:He's from New Jersey.
Marc:We've always gotten along pretty good.
Marc:And that's always nice to hear from him.
Marc:He was playing here in L.A.
Marc:at the Bootleg Theater.
Marc:And I was doing comedy that night.
Marc:But he said, come down.
Marc:and play Neil Young's Keep On Rockin' in the Free World with me.
Marc:And I'm like, all right, I think I can do that.
Marc:And then I learned the chords.
Marc:I know the songs.
Marc:He tells me to throw my gold top in the car, my deluxe, my Gibson, Les Paul.
Marc:And I did.
Marc:And then I get there and I just got all chicken shit.
Marc:I got to the gig.
Marc:It's packed out.
Marc:They're about to play.
Marc:And I didn't bring my guitar in.
Marc:I didn't want to be the guy that walked in with his guitar to play one song.
Marc:I asked him earlier.
Marc:It's like, if I don't bring it, do you got one around?
Marc:He said, yeah, we'll set you up.
Marc:But I got there, and they had a jazz master out for me, a Squire jazz master.
Marc:It might have been the Jay Mascus model.
Marc:I didn't check.
Marc:I was more focused on just the nerves of playing the song.
Marc:And they rock pretty hard.
Marc:They're a punk rock outfit, but it's pretty solid rock and roll stuff.
Marc:It's good.
Marc:He's having a great show.
Marc:It was a great night.
Marc:And they were about to close up.
Marc:And I knew, I guess I should have figured it was going to be the last song I was going to play with them and their last song for the night.
Marc:And I realized right before that, the song before the last song, I wasn't quite clear on some of the changes.
Marc:So in a panic, I ran out of the room where the show was and I pulled it up on Apple Music, the song, and I listened to it just so I kind of had it in my head.
Marc:And then he called me up on stage and we fucking did it.
Marc:And to be honest with you folks, and I don't like being this honest, but I think I've watched it like 15 to 20 times a day every day since I played it.
Marc:Just me playing that lead with a real rock band.
Marc:And I get a kick out of it every time because I fucking nailed it.
Marc:And I feel pretty good about that.
Marc:I feel pretty good about my ability to land a fairly solid solo on someone else's guitar with someone else's equipment in a great song.
Marc:But that guitar sounded good.
Marc:So my point is, all my practice has paid off.
Marc:I can fucking at least three out of five times land a fucking pretty searing solo.
Marc:That's all I'm saying.
Marc:Proud of myself.
Marc:Is that okay?
Marc:Yes, I call them President Scumbag.
Marc:So what else happened?
Marc:Last night, I went to the Joker premiere.
Marc:here in Los Angeles.
Marc:It was exciting.
Marc:It was kind of fun.
Marc:I got dressed up.
Marc:I went with Lynn Shelton.
Marc:She got dressed up.
Marc:We drove up.
Marc:It was high security.
Marc:They closed off all of Hollywood Boulevard.
Marc:There were plenty of fans on the street, but there was this whole chunk of the street just empty, and it was massive security.
Marc:Got out of the limo, did the picture line.
Marc:There was no reporters there.
Marc:It was all photos.
Marc:just walked the line, kind of hung around.
Marc:I finally got to sort of connect with Joaquin a bit because we didn't really do it on set.
Marc:He gave me a hug and had a couple laughs.
Marc:And then we went into, and then Todd Phillips, of course, the director.
Marc:So the movie itself, had not seen it, was very excited to see it.
Marc:There's a nice build to it.
Marc:And it looks great.
Marc:Joaquin is great.
Marc:then and boy the end man the end definitely delivers i there's i'm very limited what i can say but i will say this my scene is not as long as as it was shot and i you know these things happen but it was it made sense i i text before that last week i texted uh todd phillips the director i said am i still in the movie and he said the walk and talk is out but yeah
Marc:The dressing room scene is there and you're in parts of the end of the movie.
Marc:And I'm like, okay, so the walk and talk is out.
Marc:Why is that?
Marc:And he said, because there's not a shot in this entire film that doesn't involve Joker, doesn't involve Joaquin, whether it's his point of view or whether he's in it or whether it's something in his head that the one scene where he wasn't in, it was when me and De Niro were walking down the hallway towards...
Marc:The dressing room, seeing it on the big screen, knowing that you're doing the work in the present, you can only feel what you feel.
Marc:But seeing it like I, you know, I did it, man.
Marc:I held my own in that moment in that little scene.
Marc:I acted right.
Marc:I took Todd Phillips note, you know, when he gave me direction, which is basically, you know, De Niro's your boss.
Marc:And I was very happy with the performance.
Marc:It was very tight.
Marc:I showed up.
Marc:I'm definitely in it.
Marc:So that was exciting.
Marc:Go see the movie.
Marc:I think you'll enjoy it.
Marc:But it doesn't open until next Friday, I think.
Marc:But it's something.
Marc:He's something, that Joaquin Phoenix.
Marc:Talk like my father.
Marc:That Joaquin guy's something.
Marc:So look.
Marc:Let's talk about our guest that we're going to enjoy right now.
Marc:Mary Lou Henner wanted to do the show.
Marc:I ran into her in a theater.
Marc:I can't remember what show we were seeing, maybe Death to Kill a Mockingbird or maybe it was Hamilton.
Marc:I don't remember, but I saw her.
Marc:And she saw me and she was very excited and she wanted to come on the show.
Marc:So today's her day.
Marc:So Taxi, the show that kind of made her, first premiered 41 years ago this month.
Marc:And the plan here is to talk with Danny DeVito tomorrow and have that episode for you on Thursday.
Marc:So this is me talking to Mary Lou about Mary Lou and the arc of Mary Lou.
Marc:And she's pretty, pretty lively.
Marc:So enjoy this.
Marc:And also, by the way, well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you at the end.
Marc:Enjoy this.
Marc:It's Mary Lou Henner and me.
Marc:Do you want to wear cans?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Ex-radio person.
Marc:I know.
Marc:How long did you do morning radio?
Marc:Three years.
Marc:It's like, it turns you upside down, right?
Marc:You know.
Marc:Like six o'clock you got to be on the air?
Guest:At first I was doing five till eight.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I was doing eight till 11.
Marc:That's easier.
Guest:And then that was a lot easier.
Marc:At what stage do you decide to do radio?
Guest:You know, I've always loved interviewing people.
Guest:I used to sit in my backyard.
Guest:I had a very crazy upbringing, but I used to sit in my backyard and interview people with my hairbrush.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Fictional people or real people?
Guest:Like neighbors and kids that I knew.
Marc:Because you saw it on TV?
Guest:because i saw oh i was obsessed with the tonight show oh really so i just i mean like carson's tonight show carson's tonight when i got to do it with him a few times i know it was so great but like so i was just always into i i'm so naturally curious about other people yeah i'm always trying to like really get to know people right everything i'm just very pro extrovert yeah i don't know i'll talk to the person next to me on the airplane you'll
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:You're that person.
Marc:Like Conan has a whole routine.
Marc:He does.
Marc:I find that I don't do it hardly at all anymore.
Marc:But I find that when it does happen is literally like 14 minutes before landing.
Marc:Oh, that's safe.
Marc:I guess that's what it is.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:But I could not talk to somebody for five hours.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then out of nowhere, it's just the conversation starts to happen.
Guest:But maybe you don't go to the bathroom a lot.
Guest:I like a window seat.
Marc:I do go to the bathroom.
Marc:No, and you go to the bathroom on it?
Marc:And you like the window?
Guest:Yeah, I like the window.
Marc:I like the aisle because I like to go to the bathroom.
Guest:So see, now I'd have to talk to you to be able to crawl over.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:My son, I have two sons, 23 and 25.
Guest:The 25-year-old Nick, he loves the middle seat.
Guest:He feels it's the best of both worlds.
Guest:Really?
Guest:And he can be on a plane.
Marc:People be so happy for him to travel.
Guest:I know, I know.
Guest:He's a filmmaker and he directs videos and stuff.
Guest:How old is he?
Guest:25.
Marc:And he's a middle seat guy?
Guest:Middle seat guy since he was little.
Marc:I've never met a middle seat person.
Guest:He wants to do a whole documentary on the middle seat.
Guest:It's a great title.
Guest:The benefits of the middle seat.
Marc:Just call it the middle seat.
Guest:The middle seat.
Guest:And he wants, he feels like even if there's nothing, well, he likes to talk to people, that kind of thing.
Marc:You made another one.
Guest:I made two of them.
Guest:Yeah, talkers?
Guest:Both of my kids.
Guest:The one is a little less of a talker.
Guest:In fact, my son Joey, who's 23, comedy, wants to be a comedy writer, writer's room, improv, graduated from Northwestern, unbelievably funny.
Marc:Well, you're from Chicago, right?
Marc:Chicago.
Guest:that's where northwestern is yes i went to university of chicago but is that joey went to uh so what does it look like when you're growing up you just told me that you had skunks as pets no this is what happened i i'll give you my little speech about my upbringing and then you can take it from what do could do we have to does it have to be in the form of a speech no no but it's sort of like how many times you've done this people yeah it just it just says it all in like a few sentences
Marc:Well, we have more time.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:That's what I like about your podcast.
Marc:Give me the encapsulated few sentence speech on your upbringing.
Marc:We can unpack it from there.
Guest:I'll try to make it sound fresh.
Guest:But it was the heart of the city.
Guest:Do you know Chicago?
Marc:Sure, a little bit.
Guest:Logan Square?
Guest:It's so hipster groovy now.
Marc:Yes, I actually do know Logan Square.
Guest:Heart of the city.
Guest:The Kennedy Expressway just missed demolishing my house when I was a little girl because they were building it and everything else.
Marc:Was there a pushback in protest?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I was four, five.
Marc:You should know, though.
Marc:You have that memory thing.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I remember when it opened.
Guest:So we lived on the boulevard and you weren't aren't allowed to have a commercial property or you couldn't back then anyway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so but it didn't matter because my mother was very close friends with the alderman and we were even like the house where, you know, people went to vote.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It's always weird when you've got to go to a house to vote.
Guest:To vote.
Guest:But my father built this garage, a fake garage, which is, you know, that's why I laud you for doing this in your garage, because I grew up as a garage kid.
Guest:My mother ran a dancing school in our garage, and it was 200 students from the neighborhood between the ages of two.
Marc:The hell of a big garage.
Guest:It wasn't.
Guest:It was like two and a half cars.
Marc:So she ran a few classes.
Guest:Yeah, classes.
Guest:There was never 200.
Guest:Oh, no, no, no.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:Baby classes, old classes.
Marc:She was a dancer.
Guest:A dancer.
Guest:And we all danced.
Guest:We all, as soon as you were 14, put to work, you had to have a class.
Marc:So there were- You had to teach.
Guest:You had to teach.
Guest:Oh, I danced since I was two.
Guest:So yeah.
Guest:What kind of dance?
Marc:Ballet?
Guest:Tap, ballet, jazz.
Guest:Tap?
Guest:My mother taught modern dancing, you know, like jazz.
Guest:You can tap?
Guest:I can tap.
Marc:Have you tapped with Christopher Walken?
Guest:No.
Marc:Maybe that's something you should do before.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I aspire to tap with Christopher Walken.
Marc:Do you have any memories of Christopher Walken?
Guest:I do.
Guest:In an elevator.
Guest:We were all staying at the Viva Hotel.
Guest:The Viva apartments in Vancouver in 1996.
Marc:When you were shooting?
Guest:I was shooting the Titanic.
Guest:I don't know what he was shooting.
Guest:He had red hair, crazy hair.
Guest:And so we'd run into each other in the elevator.
Marc:The Titanic?
Guest:Not Titanic.
Guest:Not Titanic.
Marc:The Titanic.
Guest:The Titanic miniseries that starred, that my husband at the time was directing Robert Lieberman.
Guest:I played Molly Brown, Insinkable Molly Brown.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I had two little kids.
Guest:One was six.
Guest:Joey was six and Nikki had just turned two.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, but it was like Peter Gallagher and Catherine Zeta-Jones.
Guest:It's what introduced her to the American public.
Marc:And you had an elevator moment with Walken.
Guest:A couple of them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Laundry room.
Marc:How was that?
Guest:Great.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Well, I was married to Frederick Forrest.
Guest:He was my first husband.
Guest:From Apocalypse Now.
Guest:And the Rose.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So a lot of those guys that were that group knew me from that.
Marc:How old were you when you were married to Frederick Forrest?
Guest:28.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He was much older.
Marc:He was much older?
Guest:Well, it's at 43.
Marc:And you were 28 and he was 43?
Guest:44, yeah.
Marc:44?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you met on that movie?
Guest:We, no, we met on a movie, the movie Hammett.
Guest:Yeah, that's what I mean.
Marc:At the screen test.
Guest:January the 5th, 1980.
Guest:I won't do dates all the time.
Marc:But you had no kids with him?
Guest:No, I had no children.
Guest:I was only with him two years.
Marc:Oh, that bad, huh?
Guest:Bad enough.
Guest:You either want a marriage that's bad enough that you're out in two years or good enough that you're in for a while.
Marc:It's glad it wasn't one of those slow percolating bads.
Marc:No.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, he talks about it.
Guest:In a bad way?
Guest:No, he definitely, you know, he was an alcoholic.
Guest:And I'd never, you know, I'm so like sunny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, oh, well, that's okay.
Marc:Was that your first alcoholic?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Boyfriend?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a shock.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But do you find that you, are you attracted to people with the compulsive sort of addictive issues?
Guest:I'm attracted to people.
Guest:I'm attracted.
Guest:Well, I understand.
Guest:No, I don't think...
Guest:No.
Guest:You mean like the fix-it type?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I've had my issues.
Guest:I've had my relationships over the years with people who were dark and complicated and thought like, oh, you know, and they're attracted to me, so I'm attracted to them, that kind of thing.
Marc:Yeah, you were the dark and complicated.
Guest:The dark whisperer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:There's a lot of them.
Yeah.
Marc:It's a full-time job.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, one of my brothers has been in and out of rehab a few times.
Guest:In fact, I'm one of six siblings, and five of us went to Betty Ford and spent the week there.
Guest:And they said they've never seen that happen with a family.
Guest:You were at Betty Ford?
Guest:My brother was.
Marc:Five of you, though.
Marc:What's five of you?
Guest:Five of us went there for family week.
Marc:Oh, I thought you were patients.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:No, we got a discount.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:He wants to do a Zagat guide on rehab.
Guest:Oh, he does?
Marc:For rehabs?
Guest:He's a real character.
Marc:Oh, your brother?
Marc:How many got five?
Guest:I have two brothers.
Guest:There's two boys and four girls.
Marc:Everyone's still around?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:Our parents died very young, tragically, both of them.
Guest:But yeah, the siblings are all still...
Marc:So there's a dance studio in the garage.
Marc:Dance studio in the garage.
Marc:You're teaching at 14.
Marc:200 students.
Marc:There's tapping and there's ballet.
Guest:Nuns.
Guest:Oh, I thought you said ballet.
Guest:This is a lower middle class neighbor in Chicago.
Marc:No ballet?
Marc:No ballet.
Guest:You could park on the boulevard.
Marc:Ballet.
Marc:There's ballet.
Guest:Ballet, tap, jazz, social dancing.
Marc:I can see you doing jazz.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Well, I did Fosse for a year on Broadway.
Guest:You did.
Guest:I did Chicago.
Guest:I remember that.
Guest:408 performances.
Guest:Of Chicago.
Guest:I did it on Broadway.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I replaced Annie Reinking, so I was the first replacement.
Guest:And so I went in.
Guest:I did the show with Bebe Neuwirth and Joel Gray.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And Jimmy Naughton.
Guest:And then they asked me to go to Vegas, and I thought,
Guest:oh Vegas I don't want to go and then they made me an offer I couldn't refuse so I was like so excited I went okay yeah that sounds like a deal so I went there I took my two little boys they were three and a half and five at the time and we had the best time they got us a house we the boys learned to swim they got their yellow belts in karate it was fantastic in Vegas and I got so complimented because I was at the Mandalay Bay and the people were saying oh
Guest:You're great.
Guest:Well, we love you here.
Guest:And I was like, oh, you like the show?
Guest:And he was like, no, we sell a lot more Belvedere with your crowd.
Guest:It's all about the booze.
Marc:It's all about the booze.
Marc:Getting them back out to the casino.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:It's weird.
Marc:I don't.
Marc:Was that the first time you worked in Vegas?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The only time.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was in 99.
Guest:And it was really fun.
Guest:I had a great time.
Guest:I mean, they had to drag me kicking and screaming to go, and then they had to drag me kicking and screaming out of there.
Guest:But the boys had to start school, so I had to do it.
Guest:But I had a blast.
Guest:They gave us a bungalow.
Marc:Yeah, when you get first class treatment in Vegas, I imagine it's really first class.
Guest:You take your kids to the wave pool and the lazy river and all that other stuff.
Guest:We had a great time.
Guest:And the audiences were great.
Guest:They loved the show.
Guest:And we did the same show we did on Broadway.
Guest:But it is kind of funny when you're doing a second show on Tuesday and you're about to start the second act and it's midnight.
Guest:And you're doing me and my baby if you want the show.
Marc:It's like crazy.
Marc:There's no time in Vegas.
Guest:No, there's no time.
Guest:No time.
Marc:So, okay, so you start dancing.
Marc:I start dancing.
Marc:Are you the youngest?
Marc:Were you in the middle?
Guest:No, I'm the third.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:My parents were married five years, then they had a girl.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Another five years, they had a second girl.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Another five years, they had me.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then the next year, a boy.
Guest:Next year, a girl.
Guest:Three years later, a boy.
Marc:So that seems like an interesting pacing.
Guest:It was.
Guest:So there's a lot of space.
Guest:They had, my mother gave birth to babysitters.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She gave birth to me.
Guest:That was the plan.
Guest:13 months later, she gave birth to the first boy, the little Buddha.
Guest:So my older sister kind of raised me.
Guest:But we grew up, I mean, it was such a great way to grow up because it was not only a dancing school, but my mom ran a beauty shop out of our kitchen.
Marc:The whole house was a business.
Guest:The whole house was a business.
Guest:25 women from the neighborhood would come over and get their hair done in the kitchen.
Marc:But were there signs or was there just a known thing?
Guest:Just a known thing.
Guest:Everybody came over.
Guest:Everybody hung out at my house.
Guest:My parents were incredible.
Marc:All under the table.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:But not for a dollar a student and my mother charged $3 for a haircut.
Guest:Kept her busy though?
Guest:Right.
Guest:I grew up with such a great role model about wanting to do a lot of different things and being an entrepreneur.
Marc:What about food?
Marc:Who's feeding everybody?
Guest:She was, but as my uncle used to say, as a cook, she was a very good dancer.
Guest:But I liked my mother's cooking because it was very simple.
Guest:She was Greek.
Guest:My father was Polish.
Guest:Greek's the best.
Guest:I just went there for the first time.
Marc:I've never been there, but Greek food, I love it.
Marc:So clean.
Guest:Fish.
Guest:I like fish.
Guest:I like horta, which is the greens.
Guest:I like horta, the greens.
Marc:They're just like dandelion greens or something.
Guest:Yeah, and I love the white beans.
Marc:Have you had that dessert, Gallic de Borco?
Guest:I don't eat dairy.
Guest:I haven't had dairy since.
Guest:Today is my 40th anniversary of not having dairy.
Guest:August 15th, 1979.
Marc:I hardly eat it because it just seems like pure fat to me.
Guest:But now that it just weighs you down.
Guest:It's the hardest thing for your stomach.
Marc:But for 40 years and to celebrate that, like you really have something against dairy.
Guest:I do.
Guest:Oh, I, you know, I was upset.
Guest:Well, my parents both died very young.
Guest:My father died of a heart attack at 52.
Guest:I was 17 at the time.
Marc:That's terrible.
Guest:My mother died at 58 of arthritis.
Marc:Of arthritis?
Guest:The complications, rheumatoid arthritis, the upper vertebrae of her spine disintegrated, shifted out of position, made her paralyzed from the neck down.
Marc:Oh my God, that's horrible.
Guest:Right before I got taxi.
Guest:So it was really sad.
Marc:Oh, sorry.
Marc:And what's that have to do with dairy?
Guest:Well, the more I started studying the human body and I went to, I took, you know, went to the Bodhi Tree, if you remember that.
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Marc:The Bodhi Tree bookstore?
Guest:On Melrose.
Guest:Yeah, it's where- I went there.
Guest:Nutritionists, doctors.
Marc:The Earth Cafe is there now, I think, right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or is it across the street?
Guest:I think it's across the street.
Guest:It's close.
Guest:But the same neighborhood.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Same street.
Guest:Same block.
Marc:So you went to the holistic bookstore.
Guest:I went there.
Marc:Started researching.
Guest:Nutritionists.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Doctors.
Guest:I took human anatomy classes at UCLA.
Yeah.
Marc:Out of fear for your life.
Guest:I just felt like if my parents can both die in their 50s, and this is the genetic hand we've been dealt, and I've got all these brothers and sisters, I don't want to, you know.
Marc:Well, how are they doing?
Guest:Good.
Guest:Really good.
Marc:Are they all on the same diet as you?
Marc:No.
Guest:The smart ones.
Guest:No, the ones who are the most healthy.
Guest:No, everybody dabbles in it.
Guest:Some of them are totally committed.
Marc:Polish.
Marc:How Polish was your dad?
Guest:Half.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, no, he was Polish.
Guest:100%.
Guest:My mother, 100% Greek.
Guest:It's a great combination.
Marc:It is an interesting conversation.
Guest:I'm very lucky.
Marc:I don't know if I've ever heard that one before.
Guest:Yeah, it's rare.
Guest:It's rare.
Guest:I look probably more Polish.
Guest:Well, people always think I'm Irish and Italian.
Marc:It feels pretty Chicago to me.
Guest:Chicago.
Marc:Polish and Greek for some reason.
Guest:Yeah, Chicago.
Guest:It is.
Guest:Real neighborhood.
Guest:Very neighborhood.
Guest:My whole neighborhood was very Polish and German.
Guest:Not too many Greeks.
Marc:A Ukrainian?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:A little bit Ukrainian, but mostly.
Marc:Where are the pierogies from?
Guest:Are they Polish?
Marc:Polish.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, pierogies were, you know.
Guest:But we were very American.
Guest:You know, my parents were first generation, but they weren't very Greek and they weren't very Polish.
Guest:Religion?
Guest:Catholic.
Guest:My mother discovered Catholicism and that's when she started having all the kids.
Guest:And so we lived right next door to a Catholic church.
Marc:She discovered it?
Guest:Was she Greek Orthodox?
Guest:She was born Greek Orthodox and my oldest sister was baptized Greek Orthodox.
Guest:Then she got into the Catholic church because it was right next door.
Guest:And so the nuns came over for stretch classes.
Guest:In their habits?
Guest:In their habits.
Guest:No.
Guest:In their habits.
Guest:I don't know what happened behind closed doors, but my mother, because my mom gave up exercises.
Guest:The nun's class was private.
Guest:The kids weren't allowed in.
Guest:But she also cut their hair because she had this beauty shop.
Guest:But she'd go to the convent to cut their hair.
Marc:But it's a beauty shop.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:You had a couple of those dryers in the house?
Guest:We had one dryer where the refrigerator was supposed to be.
Guest:The refrigerator was down in the basement.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And so the blue hair drying chair was in the kitchen and the whole kitchen was kind of set up like a salon with a, you know how like when you go to a salon and there's like the little tray with the neck.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was set up in our kitchen.
Guest:You know, the kitchen was set up like a.
Marc:Now, was this the primary business of the family?
Marc:The dancing school was.
Marc:And what did your dad do?
Guest:Oh, no, my father sold.
Guest:He was a troubleshooter for Ford Motor Company and Chevrolet.
Guest:He was a manager of dealerships.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:I think one of the reasons I have a good memory is I had to memorize so many phone numbers because he never stayed at a place for very long.
Guest:He'd go in there for three months, build it up, move to the next maybe six months, build it up, go to the next.
Guest:My parents were very dynamic and very...
Guest:Full of energy.
Guest:My image of my parents growing up is that there was always people laughing.
Guest:Men lined up to dance with my mother on the dance floor and women in the corner with my father with their heads thrown back in laughter.
Guest:They looked like Lana Turner and Clark Gable in our minds.
Guest:Exciting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then at some point, because we had these big parties, at some point, you know, somebody would put on a rumba and my father would go on the floor and everybody would clear the space and my parents would dance.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's so sweet.
Marc:Dancing is, that kind of dancing, to know how to dance, it's very kind of exciting.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's really fun.
Marc:I think I learned how to do it for my first marriage, my first wedding.
Guest:Oh, did you?
Marc:We took some ballroom classes.
Oh.
Marc:But I didn't stick with it.
Marc:I mean, there's certain things I think I should stick with because they probably make me feel good.
Marc:But I wouldn't say I'm a dancer.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I bet you have.
Guest:You seem like you have natural grace.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I would hope so.
Marc:I mean, I think I can do it.
Marc:I'm athletic and I have pretty good rhythm.
Guest:What was your sport?
Marc:No, I mean, I don't have a sport, but I mean, physique wise, you know, I work out, I run and competitive sports were not my.
Guest:And you have to sit here for so long.
Marc:That's why it's like, oh, yeah, I don't have back issues.
Marc:I have knee issues.
Marc:I have ankle issues.
Marc:I don't really.
Marc:You must walk well.
Marc:I do.
Marc:All right.
Marc:I'm a little hunched.
Marc:Yeah, I have a natural hunch because I'm holding my stomach in a lot.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I grew up with that.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Well, yeah, my mom was a little bit body dysmorphic, so it's a hereditary trait.
Guest:I heard you talk about it in one of your podcasts.
Marc:One of the many.
Guest:No, but I think that that's the generation, too.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, I think.
Guest:Definitely.
Guest:Well, one of my three mothers-in-law, because I'm on my third and final husband.
Guest:But every one of my mothers-in-law talked about weight and talked about going on diet pills when they were pregnant.
Guest:My mother was naturally thin.
Marc:One of those people.
Marc:The enemy, we call them.
No.
Guest:No, listen, I've got the, you know, I think it's food.
Guest:I really think it's food.
Guest:It's so not popular to say that now.
Guest:You think what's food?
Guest:I used to weigh 56 pounds more than I do right now.
Marc:Stop it.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I did at one time.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Until I changed my, uh, in college, I would go up and down, up and down.
Guest:I was a horrible yo-yo dieter.
Guest:I'd go on every stupid diet.
Guest:This, I talk about this in all of my books because I found a different way of eating that worked for me.
Guest:And it just, it's like learn to love the food that loves you.
Guest:That's what I call it because I knew dairy didn't love me.
Guest:I knew sugar didn't love me.
Guest:I knew a couple of things didn't love me.
Marc:I don't eat a lot of sugar, but I eat fruit.
Guest:Yeah, that's, well, that's a natural sugar, but it's not like refined sugar, not kitty cocaine sugar.
Marc:No, I don't do much of that.
Marc:I like stevia, like almond milk.
Marc:I make my own almond milk.
Guest:Oh, you do?
Marc:Yeah, it's great.
Guest:My son's very allergic to nuts and cats too.
Guest:So unfortunately we can't have a cat because I always liked cats.
Marc:No nuts, no cats.
Guest:Yeah, no nuts, no cats.
Marc:Those nut allergies are scary.
Guest:And I knew it's seven months old because he had something from a hotel room.
Guest:We were staying at the Mirajan.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:And he had taken the hospital?
Guest:No.
Guest:But I could tell his whole... But you know what works for... What's the cure-all?
Guest:Breast milk.
Guest:Breast milk's unbelievable.
Marc:Really?
Guest:It is.
Marc:Not considered dairy, though.
Guest:It's like... No, no, no.
Guest:It's not from a cow.
No.
Guest:Totally different.
Guest:Totally different chemical makeup and everything.
Marc:That's good dairy.
Guest:That's good dairy.
Guest:Breast milk.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So you're dancing.
Guest:My uncle lived upstairs with the 10 cats, two dogs, two birds, a skunk, 150 fish, and his boyfriend, Charles.
Guest:And he taught art at the Catholic grammar school next door.
Guest:He had art classes going on upstairs while the dancing school was going on, while the beauty shop was in the kitchen.
Marc:It sounds like the city should have been paying for all this.
Guest:They should have.
Guest:And he was also the neighborhood astrologist and he ran a cat hospital on our roof.
Guest:So we had all this going on.
Marc:Are you shitting me?
Guest:This is totally true.
Guest:Where's this movie?
Guest:This is how I grew up.
Guest:Why don't you write this script?
Guest:I know, I know.
Guest:I should write this movie.
Guest:It's so crazy the way I grew up and people go, are you kidding me?
Marc:It sounds like a play.
Guest:It's a lot of people.
Guest:Well, it's like you can't take it with you.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Because there's so much going on.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:But it gave us such an outlook.
Guest:And my mother and my uncle were so obsessed with old movies and culture and theater and opera and everything else that we would be exposed to all of that.
Marc:And gayness.
Guest:And gayness.
Guest:Oh, I knew that they were a couple.
Guest:He had his arm around him at dinners.
Guest:Their beds were pushed together.
Marc:So you grew up with tolerance.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:and embracing people do you want to know something I was 21 years old and in the first national company of Greece and I was in Boston not Boston I was in another city in Toronto and I got a birthday card that said love Uncle Dan and Charles and my girl one of the girls in the show she said love Uncle Dan and Charles is your uncle gay and I said
Guest:It's like there was no label.
Guest:There was no label to us.
Marc:Right.
Guest:They had the most successful relationship of any of the relationships in our whole family.
Guest:They were together the longest and they're buried next to each other.
Marc:How do you have a pet skunk, though, is a big question.
Guest:He got it.
Guest:He deodorized it.
Guest:You take the little sack off.
Marc:You do.
Marc:And it was a nice animal?
Guest:So cute.
Marc:Jet.
Marc:What was all the fucking animals?
Marc:So how did they live up there?
Marc:Did it smell like shit all the time?
Marc:It sounds like a fucking zoo.
Guest:No, he kind of cleaned it up.
Guest:And we were the godparents.
Guest:Each one of us got a cat.
Guest:Mine was Chiffon, a little calico cat.
Guest:It was so cute.
Marc:And this was going on upstairs.
Guest:The dancing school.
Guest:All of this went on all the time.
Guest:And it's just the way it was.
Marc:And there were five of you.
Guest:Six.
Marc:Six of you.
Guest:Six of us.
Marc:And this was all going on.
Guest:This was all going on.
Guest:So I grew up with a very kind of theatrical upbringing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And people would call, you know, colleges, high schools, community theaters would call the house and want kids for a show.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And so we, you know, I was always like the first one with her hand up.
Guest:So I would, I got to do a lot of shows.
Guest:I had connections.
Guest:So I started doing a lot of community theater.
Guest:And then when I was 15, I did like a very famous production of The Boyfriend in Chicago.
Guest:I was the youngest kid by far, person by far.
Marc:It was like a big theater production.
Guest:Yeah, it was community theater, but it was like a very well-respected one.
Guest:And then one of the guys that I met who was in the advertising agency, quite a bit older, he called me and he said, Henner, I've written the show.
Guest:It may never get off the ground.
Guest:We're going to perform it in a converted trolley barn.
Guest:I read it about the kids I went to high school.
Guest:It's called Grease.
Guest:So I did the original company of Grease in Chicago.
Marc:Before it got to New York?
Guest:Before anything.
Marc:Oh, wow.
Guest:So I did that.
Marc:He wrote all the music and everything?
Guest:He and his partner, yeah, Warren Casey.
Guest:It was Jim Jacobs and then Warren Casey.
Guest:And so the first day of rehearsal, we both, we walked in and it was like two stacks, about nine inches tall.
Guest:One of them was songs and the other one was scenes.
Guest:And he'd pass out the scenes.
Marc:Who were you?
Guest:Well, do you know the play or the movie?
Marc:I feel like I saw the play when I was a kid in New York.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I remember that.
Guest:When were you?
Marc:September 27th, 1963.
Guest:Oh, you were going on a Friday.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Are you sure?
Marc:I thought it was a Thursday night.
Marc:It was a Friday?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:It might have been after midnight.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Marc:September 27th, 1963 is a Friday?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I believe you.
Guest:Pretty sure.
Guest:That's just off the top of my head.
Marc:So he wrote it about these kids from school.
Marc:I think I remember the sexy tough one.
Marc:Rizzo.
Marc:Rizzo was funny.
Marc:I can't remember who played it.
Guest:It opened in New York, February 14th of 72.
Guest:And so you might have seen it if you saw the original company.
Guest:And then it moved to Broadway.
Guest:So it was at the Eden Theater.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I was in college.
Marc:Who played Rizzo on Broadway?
Guest:Adrienne Barbeau.
Marc:And who played the good girl?
Guest:Carol Demas.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:I wonder who I saw.
Guest:But you might have seen Barry Bostwick, maybe?
Marc:I really can't remember.
Marc:So who did you play?
Guest:I played Marty, who sang Freddie, My Love.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And his boyfriend went off.
Marc:The one who I saw do it had a really nasally voice.
Guest:No, that might have been Frenchie.
Marc:Oh, Frenchie.
Marc:That's Frenchie.
Guest:Frenchie with the red hair.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I wore a blonde wig.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:She was like the one who was very flirty with everybody.
Guest:Sort of a Marilyn Monroe wannabe.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And flirted with the disc jockey who came to do the, whatchacallit.
Guest:So anyway, so here I am.
Guest:I'm doing the show in Chicago.
Guest:The show goes to Broadway.
Guest:My father had just passed away, so I didn't want to do anything.
Guest:I didn't want to go to New York and audition.
Guest:And then I get a call.
Guest:I went to University of Chicago on four scholarships.
Marc:Because I was like- Four scholarships.
Marc:Mm-hmm.
Marc:For dance, hair, animals?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And just social, just personality.
Marc:What were the scholarships?
Guest:National Merit, National Honor Society.
Guest:I was named Outstanding Teenager of Illinois, which is kind of cool.
Guest:Yeah, well, you know, I know how to fill a good resume.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was an overachiever.
Marc:And what did you do in college?
Guest:I did a lot of plays, but they didn't have... You couldn't get a theater degree, so I was going for a political science.
Guest:But I placed out of a lot of classes, so I would have graduated in three years.
Guest:But then...
Guest:At the beginning of my third year, I get a call from Jim Jacobs who says, we're casting the National Company.
Guest:It starts rehearsal tomorrow.
Guest:I've saved the part for you.
Guest:Please come to New York today.
Guest:You have to come to get the job.
Guest:I said, oh, I'm on my way to the library.
Guest:I have two papers due.
Guest:I'm in a relationship.
Guest:Thank you for thinking of me.
Guest:Hang up the phone.
Guest:And I walked to the library and my car was parked in front of the library.
Guest:And I thought, is this a sign?
Guest:Because it was never parked there.
Guest:And I thought...
Guest:I'm going.
Guest:So I went to the airport, flew student standby.
Guest:Remember, maybe you were too old for that.
Guest:Kind of, yeah.
Guest:And got the job.
Guest:And so showed up at the first rehearsal.
Guest:And in that room was Jeff Conaway was playing Danny Zuko.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:And do you know who Judy Kaye is?
Guest:She won the Tony Award.
Marc:I think I saw him as him.
Guest:Is that possible?
Guest:Oh, as Danny?
Guest:Yeah, that's very possible.
Guest:And Jerry Zaks just directed My Fair Lady, directs like everything on Broadway.
Guest:He was playing Kenickie.
Guest:Michael Levick, who did the original Everybody Loves Raymond, he was playing Sonny.
Guest:And John Travolta was playing Doody.
Guest:And Richard Gere was rehearsing with us to play Danny in London.
Marc:What year is this?
Guest:This is November the 28th of 1972.
Marc:So none of these guys were known guys?
Guest:Oh, nobody.
Marc:No, and they were all like four or five years older than Johnny and I. All right, so let's talk about Travolta for a minute since you don't seem to care about talking about people.
Guest:In the good ways.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, all right.
Guest:So you made all of a sudden you got so serious.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:It's like, should I have to put this light in my face?
Marc:I'm just curious, like relative to, you know, what he's become, which is he's still John Travolta, but there's a lot of mystery and weirdness about him.
Marc:What was he like as a kid?
Guest:Well, he and I immediately got along because we're both from families of six kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We both have two brothers and three sisters because he's from a family of three and three and I'm two and four.
Guest:So we both have two sisters and three brothers.
Guest:His mother taught drama.
Guest:My mother taught dance.
Guest:His father sold tires.
Guest:My father sold cars.
Guest:We both grew up in these lower middle class neighborhoods but thought we were the cultural center of our neighborhood.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And just grew up singing and dancing and performing and everything else.
Guest:He was, during that time, like my best, best friend because we were very familial and very comfortable with each other and just took to each other right away.
Marc:Are you still friends?
Guest:Yeah, not as much, you know, unfortunately.
Guest:Things get weird.
Guest:I think Scientology has something to do.
Marc:Took him away?
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I don't know.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, that's been a long time already.
Guest:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, it happened over time.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But you guys were, you never dated?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:On and off for 13 years.
Guest:For 13 years, yeah.
Guest:On and off.
Mm-hmm.
Guest:Yeah, we lived together for a while.
Guest:He's a great guy.
Guest:I mean, our family's very close.
Guest:You know his family?
Guest:We'd travel with them very well.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Yeah, we'd travel back and forth, you know, went to spend a lot of holidays together, our families and stuff.
Marc:So these were your young, like, formative love years?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, really good.
Guest:With John Travolta.
Guest:Yes, but I would say we were always more friends and siblings than lovers.
Marc:I mean, we were lovers, but we were definitely- Was that always the weird rub of it?
Marc:Like you were too good at friends?
Guest:No, because we could stay up all night talking.
Guest:He reminded me of my brothers.
Guest:I reminded him of his sisters.
Guest:He's a great guy.
Guest:He's a great, great guy.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Marc:I never ask people about this stuff, but I'm curious about what these, since your memory's so good, what these people were like when they were younger.
Guest:Like Richard Gere.
Guest:Oh, Richard was fantastic.
Guest:Well, Richard I knew from the Grease Days, but then my first movie, I came out here in 77 to do a screen test.
Guest:Well, no, I came out in April to do a screen test for a movie called Blood Brothers, and he ended up getting the part opposite me, and he was fantastic.
Guest:So we got to be friendly then, and whenever we see each other at some function or something, it's like we're right back there.
Marc:Oh, that's sweet.
Guest:Okay, so you do the national touring thing with Grease.
Guest:And she had me meet her at the theater because she had a singing lesson.
Guest:And I walk in and they're auditioning for a new Broadway show called Over Here, which I had heard about.
Guest:But I didn't think there was a part for me.
Guest:And I get on stage.
Guest:I audition.
Guest:And a week later, they flew me back and I got the part.
Marc:Musical.
Guest:Musical.
Marc:You like the musicals.
Guest:I love to sing and dance.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I love all of it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I love all of it.
Marc:So you do that for how long?
Guest:I did that a year.
Marc:And so now you're like a- In New York.
Marc:A known thing.
Guest:Well, I started getting an agent and stuff like that.
Guest:So people, they send you- I auditioned for 40 commercials before I got one because I finally figured out how to land a commercial.
Marc:How's that?
Guest:But then I did 72 of them.
Marc:How do you land a commercial?
Yeah.
Guest:You have to go in and be yourself.
Guest:That's it.
Marc:Don't act.
Guest:Don't act.
Guest:That's the hardest thing for people to learn.
Guest:You were talking about that.
Guest:I feel like I'm a student of yours now because I've been listening to your podcast for a few days.
Guest:I was so excited to be on this.
Guest:You have no idea.
Guest:I know so many of the people that you talk about in an interview.
Marc:Is there any corrections that need to be made?
Guest:Just a couple.
Marc:No, I'm kidding.
Marc:Like who?
Marc:Who did you listen to that you know?
Guest:Well, I love David Letterman.
Guest:That was great.
Guest:I remember the first time I met him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That was November 22nd, 1979.
Guest:He was hosting The Tonight Show and I came on and I did his show like 14 times.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I love him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Jay, of course.
Marc:And, you know, Jay, but you said that you met Jay and he took you to the comedy store.
Guest:What was that?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:He, and you were talking about, and Letterman was talking about the fact that he was so good.
Guest:And I remember some of his things he, like one of the things he did was about being a college student and you couldn't have a microwave.
Guest:You couldn't cook in your room.
Guest:It was like the cops, come on now, we know you got soup in there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm sure he did that for years.
Guest:But it was interesting because we hung out all day, went to the comedy store.
Marc:Wait, now, what did you say you put together for what reason that you were auditioning for something?
Guest:Oh, American Hot Wax, which I was totally wrong for.
Guest:I kept saying, you need a nice- Did you get, were you in that?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:Fran Drescher got the part and she was perfect.
Guest:I always- That was the Alan Freed movie?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
I-
Guest:I've always had like a very producer head.
Guest:And so when I think I'm wrong for something, I'm the first person to say, don't get me, get this other person.
Guest:I probably talked myself out of many jobs that way.
Marc:Did you do movies before you did TV?
Guest:I did some work in New York, but then I got cast in the film with Richard Gere, came out here to do this.
Guest:A casting director really liked me and kept bringing me in for everything.
Guest:And they brought me in for Taxi.
Guest:And I was totally wrong for the part because at the time I was 25, they wanted a 35-year-old Italian New Yorker who could have a 16-year-old daughter.
Guest:But they liked me and they thought I could hold my own with the guys.
Guest:And in the meantime...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I had done the pilot for Paper Chase and did it as a guest star.
Guest:And then I tested so high they thought, what, we only have her as a guest star?
Guest:So then it was great because Taxi was like, well, we still want this 35-year-old girl.
Guest:And they said, well, okay, you're going to lose her to Paper Chase then.
Guest:So they went, okay, she's Elaine.
Marc:Oh, thank God for Paper Chase.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I know.
Guest:It's like those...
Marc:Which didn't even last as a show, did it?
Guest:Three years.
Marc:Oh, it did?
Guest:Three years.
Guest:We were five.
Guest:Taxi was five.
Guest:Only five.
Marc:Seems like Taxi was on forever.
Guest:I know.
Guest:We did so many.
Marc:It was such a powerful presence culturally.
Guest:We had so much fun.
Marc:Judd Hirsch played the dad on my show.
Marc:He played my dad.
Guest:Oh, he did?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He's intense, huh?
Marc:He is intense, and I was worried about it.
Guest:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, because my concern was...
Marc:when we were able to get him, I mean, this is only a few years ago, was that he'd be too dewy and too soft because my dad's a little aggravated and a little bipolar.
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:That's where he lives.
Guest:Aggravated and, oh, my God, he must have been amazing.
Marc:Well, once we made the adjustment, because he does sort of settle into a Judd Hirsch thing that sort of,
Marc:You know, like it wasn't as aggressive, but like right when I just remember there was this moment where I'm like, he's doing it.
Marc:He's being too cute.
Marc:And he's kind of, you know, he's just doing this Jew thing.
Guest:Really?
Marc:And we were like, someone's got to tell him.
Marc:My dad's a little nuts.
Guest:Oh, Judd is one of the most intense people I've ever met in my entire life.
Guest:I mean, we, you know, when we all.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Once we made the adjustment.
Guest:Oh, right there.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:he's fabulous he's a fabulous actor I learned you watching him and Danny DeVito just take a script that was you know I mean there were no bad taxis but there were some that were much better than others and some that in the beginning of the week you'd think like oh and they were they were just masters and Christopher Lloyd he came in as a guest star and they just loved him so much they just made him a regular the following year and what about Andy
Guest:Andy.
Guest:I loved Andy.
Guest:I was so disappointed in Man on the Moon.
Guest:So, so, so disappointed.
Guest:Oh, me too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I thought, well, now that I've seen the documentary with Jim and Andy, it was like, well, Jim had his own thing going.
Marc:Any biopic, I mean, the problem is, is if the guy is, you know him, if the world knows him, it's already, you know, you're already working at a disadvantage.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:How are you going to do that guy?
Guest:Yeah, but I also think that they made the choice to make him so crazy all the time and not sweet.
Guest:And Andy's genius was that he knew what he was doing all the time.
Guest:And he was like this sweet boy from Long Island who could have serious conversations with you and be so adorable and then do something crazy.
Guest:And the yin-yang of that was so appealing.
Marc:But you were part of the...
Marc:You were in Man on the Moon.
Guest:Yeah, Man on the Moon.
Guest:Yeah, I wore the same clothes.
Guest:I still had them.
Marc:There's all this mythology that I think was mostly, what's his name?
Marc:Who was his partner?
Marc:I interviewed him for two and a half hours.
Marc:Oh, Bob Zmuda?
Marc:Zmuda really kind of built this myth around him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But, I mean, he was a prankster, but was he really... He knew what he was up to.
Guest:He knew what he was up to.
Guest:I mean, first of all, I know Zmuda since I'm in grade school.
Guest:What?
Guest:Because we did... Zmuda is like... My life is like a Dickens novel anyway.
Guest:People kind of wander in and out.
Guest:But Zmuda and I... I was in eighth grade going into freshman year.
Guest:He was a junior going into senior year.
Guest:And we ended up at the same Loyola University...
Guest:high school thing yeah we did the boyfriend together yeah and then all of a sudden i go to school and he's he ends up in my show in high school i was a freshman and he was a senior he ended up playing a part in the unsinkable molly brown yeah then i run into him in new york when i'm doing greece and he's good friends with somebody in the show and then i come out to hollywood and there he is
Guest:Andy's right hand guy so I've known Zmuda a very long time that's crazy I know crazy crazy yeah but I think you're right he grew he had this mythology but Zmuda has that Chicago sort of let's see what we can get away with the hustler yeah and in the best way you know um and Andy was just he'd come up with the craziest things I mean that whole Tony Clifton thing yeah was insane and did happen the way it was only it was even crazier than you saw in the movie if you saw it
Guest:Really?
Marc:It was crazier?
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:I mean, imagine that you're working with someone, you really like them, you're working together three months, and then all of a sudden your producers say to you, okay, the guest star next week is going to be Andy.
Guest:Well, it's not Andy, but just play along.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Oh, OK.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then he shows up with this fake chest, you know, like padded out with the ruffled tuxedo shirt and the, you know, ice blue tuxedo jacket with a mustache, orange fake nose wig and chain smoking.
Guest:You know, and it's like, hey, pretty lady.
Guest:Hey, let's get to work here.
Guest:And.
Guest:He was such a bad actor.
Guest:Tony Clifton was so bad playing a part.
Guest:He was going to be playing Louis de Palma's brother.
Guest:And it was Andy or was it Bob?
Marc:It was Andy.
Guest:Oh, it was totally Andy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, it was always.
Marc:Well, Bob is done Tony later.
Guest:Yeah, later to sort of carry on this myth that maybe Andy's not dead.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But so you all had to play along.
Marc:It came down from the top.
Guest:We played along until Tuesday and then went to the run through and it was so horrible.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I remember some of the lines because it was about Louis de Palma negotiating with his brother who was going to get stuck with their mother for the holidays.
Guest:And the way he said the lines was like this.
Guest:You know, ma, sometimes she's glad, sometimes she's sad.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:As Jim Brooks said, you can't have a man playing a man playing a man playing a man.
Guest:It's like I believe in an artist painting, but they can't paint on other artists.
Guest:They can't paint on the other actors.
Guest:And so they fired him, but he said he would only get fired.
Guest:They called Andy at night and said Tuesday night and said, it's just not working out with your friend Tony.
Guest:We're going to have to fire him.
Guest:And he said, can you do it in person?
Guest:So the next day we came in, Jim Burroughs said, who's directing, he said, you, you know, just play along.
Guest:We don't know what's going to happen, but here he is.
Guest:He's going to, you know, this is the new guy.
Guest:So he starts and we're like, okay, finally we can have a show this week.
Guest:And then after lunch, out of nowhere, here comes Andy with the two, here comes Tony with the two hookers that he was hanging out with all weekend in his trailer, all weekend in his trailer.
Guest:It's like,
Guest:okay where's the director let's go let's get to work and all this yeah you know and then judd turns to me he says uh the man wants a psychodrama he wants a psychodrama so the man being andy andy and they started punching each other until the paramount guards pulled them apart but my question is is like what why why did everyone feel like they had to play along with this why would why why would you know if jim called andy that's a good question ask our country right now
Guest:It's like what you know, you play.
Guest:People are fascinated by bad behavior.
Guest:And I think that I get it.
Marc:But like if everyone knew it was Andy and, you know, and they they why did they indulge Andy Kaufman to that degree?
Guest:I think they loved what he was doing as Latke so much, even though he only had to come in Tuesday afternoon for the run through.
Guest:They wrote this in the script.
Guest:It said what he was saying, but didn't have the language.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And Andy, I always use this line.
Guest:I said, Andy made up a country I wanted to visit.
Guest:Because it was so rich in culture what he brought in terms of the language and the history of, you know, Latkeland, whatever it was called.
Guest:And so they loved what he was doing so much they didn't want to lose him.
Guest:So that was a threat?
Guest:No, when he signed his contract, he said, my friend Tony Clifton has to be a guest star.
Guest:And he wanted three.
Guest:And they said, we'll sign him for one.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So...
Guest:It was like, oh, let's see.
Guest:You know, we'll play along.
Marc:But they were, you know, he had enough leverage to kind of do that.
Marc:It was really.
Guest:And they were fascinated.
Guest:I think our guys were fascinated.
Guest:I think that they thought like, well, this is kind of funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Kind of cool.
Guest:Let's see what.
Guest:But then when they realized it was not it was not going to work.
Marc:So I got rid of him.
Marc:Was the entire experience of taxi a good experience?
Guest:Fantastic.
Guest:Oh, such a golden time in all of our lives.
Guest:And every one of us will say that.
Guest:Jim Brooks and Danny and Tony and all of us.
Guest:We loved it.
Guest:I always say we had 112 shows.
Guest:We had 112 parties.
Guest:We were like the cool kids because it was Bosom Buddies and Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, Working Stiffs, Mork and Mindy.
Guest:Everybody came and hung out at Taxi's.
Guest:It was like my family.
Guest:Everybody came out and hung out at Taxi's.
Marc:And then was it from Taxi that you were able to do the movies, most of the bigger movies that you did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Went right into like movies.
Marc:I can't believe there's a fucking wood chipper out there today.
Marc:You know, I can't tell you how it's fucking annoying me sometimes.
Guest:Oh, I'm sorry.
Guest:Well, I'm a good guest to have then because it's not annoying me.
Marc:Oh, no.
Marc:No, I don't even think it picks up on the mics that much, but it's like every fucking day in this neighborhood.
Marc:There's something.
Marc:Like in my old neighborhood, I was tucked in the back.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And it's just like with all these yards, it's like every day.
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:It's just like it's one thing with the blowers, but then it just becomes this thing where like earlier there was a blower and then there was a second level, which is a wood chipper.
Marc:And I'm like, what?
Marc:A wood chipper?
Marc:What is that?
Marc:It's Fargo.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like, you know, like it becomes like this farce.
Guest:I know.
Marc:With the goddamn blowers.
Marc:And then it's like, what is that noise?
Guest:When you are at a hotel, do you have to have it quiet or do you have to have it dark?
Marc:I don't like there to be a nightclub downstairs or to be on the street where it's like, you know, going till two in the morning.
Marc:I like a quiet environment.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:And I know like, look, I've been doing a podcast from my house one way or the other for a long time.
Marc:And, you know, and I don't mind texture, but like it just makes me sort of like it fills me with a type of resentment.
Guest:Right.
Marc:The gardening equipment in this particular neighborhood.
Guest:But you have a beautiful neighborhood.
Guest:I understand.
Marc:I understand.
Marc:But it's just one of those days where I think I'm looking for a reason to lose my fucking mind.
Guest:Oh, why?
Guest:Oh, that's okay.
Guest:You could do it in front of me.
Guest:Why?
Marc:Because show business is irritating sometimes.
Guest:It is.
Guest:It's very irritating.
Guest:You have to get to inner peace and have a good family life a lot sooner these days.
Marc:You do?
Guest:You do.
Marc:But you've had this like amazingly kind of persistent career in show business.
Guest:Well, I think because I haven't messed myself up maybe.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:You know what?
Guest:It's like I think because of my parents and the crazy way I grew up, I'm always like looking like, okay, what's over here?
Guest:What's this?
Guest:So, you know, I do a lot of different things.
Marc:But you did all these like fun movies.
Guest:Did fun movies.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know if they, some of them weren't huge movies, they were kind of weird movies.
Guest:Oh, they were like weird, but I did some movies that we thought were going to be huge and then they weren't.
Guest:Like Johnny Dangerously, that was a heartbreaker.
Marc:Yeah, that was, was that Piscopo and Michael Keaton?
Guest:And the funniest person I've ever worked with, the two funniest people I have ever, ever worked with, Griffin Dunn and Ian McShane.
Guest:They will put anybody to shame.
Guest:They are the funniest two people I have ever worked with in my life.
Marc:Both of them having sort of like a pretty good few years.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:As older dudes.
Guest:How great is Griffin in, how did he not get a nomination?
Marc:For Transparent?
Guest:Oh no, for This Is Us.
Guest:Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:He's so good in that show.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I just saw him, I just realized I rewatched Dallas Buyers Club.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And he plays a doctor in Mexico.
Guest:He's so good.
Guest:He can do anything.
Guest:But he is, personally, he and Ian McShane, tears roll down your cheeks when you work with these guys.
Guest:They're unbelievable.
Guest:I did a movie in the south of France.
Marc:I can't even picture Ian McShane as funny.
Guest:Oh, so funny.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So funny, like killer funny.
Guest:Which movie did you do with them?
Guest:I did a little Showtime movie back then called Grand Larceny with Omar Sharif, Louis Jordan.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:It's pretty cool people.
Marc:See, that's what's interesting about you, too, is that you're at really this weird, like a lot of that generation was still around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, in Hollywood.
Guest:And Bert.
Guest:I worked with Bert five times.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And worked with him for four years on a series, but also did The Man Who Loved Women with him and got directed by Blake Edwards and just bonded with him.
Guest:Like, first moment, laughed, had so much fun with him.
Marc:Nice guy.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Burt Reynolds.
Guest:The best.
Guest:The best.
Guest:The best.
Guest:I loved him so much.
Guest:What a great guy.
Guest:I can't believe we're coming on the one year anniversary.
Guest:Such a special, special person.
Guest:Just really.
Guest:And it's funny because we never had an affair.
Guest:We never had a thing together.
Guest:But we just loved each other.
Guest:Maybe that's why we got to work together so many times, I always think.
Guest:Wonderful.
Guest:Wonderful man.
Guest:Special and just so generous.
Guest:It is hard to believe he's gone, really.
Guest:I know.
Guest:Because you know why it's really hard?
Guest:Because his parents lived well into their 90s, like 96 and something.
Guest:And so that he died so young.
Marc:How old was he?
Guest:Well, he was like 81.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's just like there are these people that were always so present in the culture for so long.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And just there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you just, you know, you don't, their absence, it's sort of like, wow, that's, that's happened.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And you guys stayed close until the end?
Guest:We stayed close.
Guest:Oh, we called each other on birthdays and he did my radio show and, you know, he talks about me in his book.
Guest:I talk about him in my book and, you know, just, I guess that's.
Guest:That's not so Hollywood.
Guest:That's not like a stupid thing to say.
Guest:But we stay in contact.
Guest:Well, I'm sorry for your loss.
Guest:What a great guy.
Guest:He was great.
Guest:Yeah, I've been very lucky in my career to work with a lot of wonderful people.
Marc:LA story you did with Steve Martin.
Guest:Oh my God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My favorite part I've ever played.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Not the most like me.
Guest:In fact, very unlike me.
Guest:But Steve gave me free reign.
Guest:I read the script and I wanted to go in as this character.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And they said, no, can you read the part of Trudy, the girlfriend?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I thought, I'm so not dressed.
Guest:I want to like look like the part.
Guest:I said, can I do it tomorrow?
Guest:Because I had therapy actually.
Guest:So I had therapy on the phone and I wanted to like go to my, you know, go to my therapy.
Guest:Are you still in therapy?
Yeah.
Guest:I did 28 years of therapy with a brilliant psychoanalyst who passed away.
Guest:And now sometimes my husband and I go to her son.
Guest:She was such a brilliant therapist.
Guest:Her name is Dr. Ruth Velikovsky-Sharon.
Guest:She would set up Sunday nights at 6.30 LA time, 9.30 New York time, set up six speaker boxes in her place in Princeton, New Jersey, and the six siblings for 10 years every other Sunday would do group therapy.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:So...
Marc:So 28 years of that type of psychoanalysis.
Marc:Loved it.
Marc:So when you do that for 28 years and then you do it with your, like what is, because there are some people that will do it therapy.
Marc:Like I've done it on and off my life and I'm very self examining.
Marc:But when you sort of stay in that consistent relationship with a therapist, what are you working on?
Guest:I always liken it to like, there's always things that come up and there's always so many people.
Marc:But why do they need, what do you need them for?
Guest:Because it's, it's great to brainstorm with somebody that you trust, that you can, it's like going to a computer and it's, you're asking questions that ask you questions back and forth and back and forth.
Guest:And there were just so many people.
Marc:But you, but for you, did you have a psychological issues that you, you know, that constant, that needed constant maintenance?
Guest:No, new ones come up because I definitely went into it at the time.
Guest:I felt like I was numb.
Guest:My, my, my, my mother was still alive, but my father had died.
Guest:I was having, I found myself dating a lot of men that were in other relationships.
Guest:So I was kind of like a professional other woman and I found myself not picking impossible people to have a relationship with and then complaining that I didn't, couldn't, where is that guy?
Guest:You know, I'm not, how can I have a relationship?
Guest:Right.
Guest:Without blaming yourself.
Guest:Without blaming myself.
Guest:So it was always easy to leave or say, oh, well, of course it didn't work out.
Guest:He had a girlfriend or he was crazy or he did this or whatever.
Guest:And I remember it was just like hard for me to make commitments and things.
Guest:And I remember I was living up on 83rd Street at the time and I like went to the 79th Street.
Guest:subway to go downtown and I got on and then we pulled up to 72nd and I thought should I take the express stay on the local express stay on the local and I thought I'm going to take the express so I ran to the express the doors closed ran back to the local the doors closed and the two trains were like whizzing by me I'm in the middle of the platform and I thought
Guest:no wonder i'm on my way to therapy you know it was like not easy for me to make decisions or to to take action and and i just felt like i was so out of touch with my feelings at the time and then new things come up you want to become more successful and the problems get bigger and you lose your mom and you know yeah weight is an issue because i was dealing with with weight you know women you can't talk to any women you
Guest:Because we were raised by mothers like your mother, like my mother.
Guest:And then there were issues always with food and stuff until I figured out how to eat.
Marc:So really it was about kind of like trying to make better decisions for yourself, accepting who you are and why you make the decisions you do.
Guest:You know what it is, too?
Guest:I always thought that I don't want to be a wise old person.
Guest:I want to be a wise young person.
Guest:I want a doctorate on myself.
Guest:I don't want just an eighth grade or a high school or a college education.
Guest:I want to know why I do what I do, where that comes from, why am I reactive, what is going on here.
Guest:And it just felt like, and I just loved it.
Guest:I loved the process so much.
Guest:And the more I was getting my siblings into it, the more I could see.
Guest:What were you doing?
Marc:So you got six speakers set up, and you're doing group therapy from different places.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What are you trying to... Was it more about the relationships between you guys or what happened in your childhood?
Guest:Everything.
Guest:Everything.
Guest:I mean, we had a very tragic situation with my father and one of my brothers that I was talking about a little bit earlier.
Guest:He...
Guest:We were having a Christmas party at our house.
Guest:I was 17.
Guest:He was 16.
Guest:My sister was 15.
Guest:My brother was 12.
Guest:My two older sisters were like 27 and 23.
Guest:Big Christmas party, all the dancing students, blah, blah, blah.
Guest:My brother got into some liquor that my father had been given as a Christmas gift.
Guest:He started mouthing off to one of the guests.
Guest:My father made him go in the house.
Guest:I see my sister.
Guest:I'm at the party.
Guest:I see my sister run out, get my mother.
Guest:I follow them.
Guest:My brother and father are arguing.
Guest:My brother is hitting him.
Guest:My father's got him down.
Guest:He's hitting him.
Guest:My mother separates them.
Guest:My father slumps into a chair and has a heart attack and dies.
Guest:And that's how he dies.
Guest:So we had things to deal with in my family.
Guest:And so...
Marc:And that was the core of it for everybody.
Guest:Well, part of it.
Guest:That was part of it.
Marc:But everyone was there.
Guest:Everyone was there.
Guest:We had 100 people in our dance studio and all through our house and everything else.
Marc:And it was just very... And then your dad, your brother probably had what feelings of guilt?
Guest:He was 16.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, all kinds of things.
Guest:So, you know, things things got shoveled under the I mean, we've always been a very verbal family, very like people, you know, have incredible conversations.
Guest:Our favorite thing to do is sit around and talk.
Guest:But we had issues and we had to like deal with certain things.
Guest:And then things come up in our own lives that you want to bring to the group and sort of talk to them about.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And you were 17?
Guest:I was 17.
Guest:I just turned 26.
Marc:And it was tragic.
Marc:It was quick.
Guest:Tragic.
Guest:Horrible.
Guest:Like overnight.
Guest:Like our life turned on a dime.
Guest:And what's crazy is that if I were writing a story about this family and there were certain signs along the way, just little conversations and things.
Guest:My dad was not in the health of...
Guest:I'll give you an example.
Guest:I was filling in one of the scholarship things.
Guest:And my father filled in the financial and I filled in the personal information.
Guest:And I said, oh, let me check it.
Guest:And he said, no, no, no, that's okay.
Guest:He sent it in.
Guest:I got it back in the mail two days after he died.
Guest:And...
Guest:They wanted my mother's age because nobody was ever sure of my mother's age.
Guest:So I left it blank and he left it blank just because we thought the other one filled it in.
Guest:But what my father had written was they said, if you expect decrease in income.
Guest:And so he had a different income for the following year written down.
Guest:And he wrote... He wrote...
Guest:Expect decrease in salary because of decrease in health.
Guest:Angina pains are more frequent and severe.
Guest:So he knew.
Marc:And do you find that after, like through all this process, like are you guys very close now?
Guest:Oh yeah.
Guest:Super close.
Guest:All of us.
Guest:We get together at Christmas and we all block off five days to a week and do such incredible things together.
Guest:We have, you know, there's always some kind of food crawl that it starts with.
Guest:We did an Anthony Bourdain food crawl last time.
Guest:We do a Christmas survey.
Guest:We do secret Santa.
Guest:We, I do the cooking for Christmas.
Guest:We go to somebody else's house.
Guest:We do some kind of sports event, whether it's, no, we're super
Guest:close and now the family numbers you know in 32 or 33 oh yeah everyone's got kids and kids have got kids probably uh uh well yeah kids my oldest sister you want to hear something crazy in my family my oldest sister's daughter because we're a 15 year spread my oldest sister's daughter is 54 my brothers who's 15 years younger than she is than the sister his daughter's four
Guest:So there's a 50-year age spread in that second tier.
Marc:That's so crazy.
Guest:It's crazy.
Marc:So now you doing Dancing with the Stars makes sense, right?
Marc:And you did it.
Guest:I did it.
Guest:That was one of the hardest things of my life.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was hard for a lot of different reasons, but yeah, it was really intense.
Guest:But my mission was to stay on the show.
Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Because of competitive reasons?
Guest:No, I think I had the wrong partner at the time.
Guest:Who was your partner?
Guest:Derek Hough.
Guest:He was in a tough time in his life.
Guest:I'm very like, he was, I don't think we were a match.
Guest:Oh.
Guest:And so, unfortunately.
Marc:So you had to deal with a little more emotional baggage than you prepared?
Guest:Well, I knew, I mean, he was doing two jobs, so the schedule was based around him rather than- What was he going through in his life?
Guest:He was going through, no, no, no, he was going through hairspray.
Guest:He was going through hairspray, but he was also going through, I think he expected to come back and have it.
Guest:I mean-
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:All right.
Marc:But okay.
Marc:So, and then, but the apprentice too.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Now, when you do these things, are you doing it to stay?
Marc:Do you like the work or you need the work?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:They don't pay you enough on apprentice, believe me.
Marc:You just wanted to lose money.
Marc:You did it when Trump was the guy.
Guest:Yeah, it was fun.
Guest:I was the first person they called for Celebrity Apprentice because I know Chuck LaBelle and I knew Mark Burnett.
Guest:So they called me and they said, would you do it?
Guest:And Donald was on the phone too.
Guest:And it was a blast.
Guest:It's the hardest thing I've ever done in my life and it was so much fun and it was so crazy and you get no sleep but you really prove what you can do to yourself, I think.
Marc:And you had a relationship with Donald...
Marc:that was show business yeah that was show business no but I mean like before he is the president yeah now what you know as somebody who knew him as this guy that had this reality show right what were your feelings about him
Guest:Well, he was certainly fun in the show.
Guest:And he was totally fascinated by my memory.
Guest:So every show, you didn't see it because they, of course, cut it out.
Guest:But every boardroom, he'd have me tell him what happened.
Guest:I mean, he was always like, Mary Lou, if I take you to Vegas, could you count cards and stuff?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was so, I mean, he was like, somebody would say what happened on a task and he'd say, Mary Lou, is that true?
Guest:Because you're the one with the memory.
Guest:You know, I have a good memory too, but you, you know, you have, my memory's not, I can't do the dates thing, but I have an excellent memory.
Guest:It's so funny.
Guest:But he'd be like, he'd say something totally inappropriate and he'd say, Eric, cut that out.
Guest:And I'd say, I don't know, that's kind of funny.
Guest:He'd say, Eric, leave that in.
Yeah.
Guest:But I'll tell you something.
Guest:He was fascinating because he used no notes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he just, he was off the cuff.
Guest:And he was like, he was kind of like fun and wacky.
Guest:If someone had told me that four years to the day after I was fired from a fake job, from a fake boss on a fake show, that he would be president of the United States, no way would I have believed it.
Marc:And how do you sort of assimilate that in your head with the, you know, like knowing that guy and having that kind of relationship
Marc:Because most of the people I know, comedians and stuff who knew him, they're like, yeah, he was kind of a clown and funny and he made you feel good.
Guest:He's very charming.
Guest:He's very charming.
Guest:He tripped once in front of me.
Guest:He's like, oh, she's going to remember that.
Marc:Very quick.
Guest:Very quick.
Guest:Yeah, he was really fun.
Guest:I never expected him to be president.
Guest:I never expected him to be like the president he is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:At all.
Guest:I thought he'd be much kinder and more conscious and more, you know.
Marc:Do you think he only gives a shit about himself?
Guest:I think he goes where the action is.
Guest:I think if everybody, you know, loved him over on the Democratic side, he'd go there.
Guest:I think he, you know.
Guest:So, yeah, I don't even think it's, I think he goes where the action is.
Guest:He goes where's the crowd.
Guest:And he knows how to stir people up.
Marc:That's for sure.
Guest:You know, he knows how to stir people up.
Guest:But I hate all the racism.
Guest:I hate all the misogyny.
Guest:I hate, you know, I mean, he was he was no more inappropriate in the boardroom or than most guys of that generation.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:But he was so I the idea of the children at the borders and the families, I did not expect that from him at all.
Guest:I didn't expect him to turn into that guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he goes with the fan base that wants that.
Guest:So that's what he does.
Guest:And I think that people, there must be some kind of puppet master, although he doesn't want to think that there is.
Marc:There's several.
Guest:Several.
Marc:Yeah, because he doesn't want to concern himself with that shit.
Guest:Of course, no.
Marc:He doesn't know what he's doing.
Marc:He just wants to be out in front of the people.
Guest:He didn't expect to win.
Marc:Yeah, but he's the guy, but he's no thinker.
Marc:So he's like, he's got all these monsters, you know, I'm not even being an apologist.
Marc:It's just that, you know, you're right.
Marc:He's going for the crowd.
Marc:They're really horrible.
Marc:And then he's got people that are, you know, Republican policy dudes and religious fanatics who are just like, he's like, I don't want to deal with that.
Marc:You do whatever you want.
Guest:I'll keep these people.
Guest:He likes the crowd.
Marc:Yeah, I'll keep these people worked up.
Guest:However he can keep them worked up.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm surprised.
Guest:I'm saddened by Ivanka because I loved her and she and I, you know, we had a nice relationship.
Marc:It's hard to picture them as even regular.
Marc:They're not even like, what kind of people are they?
Guest:I know.
Guest:I mean, that's so many things are going on right now.
Guest:And just just the bullying.
Guest:It's just it's just it's so crazy making that.
Guest:How do you wrap your head around?
Marc:I just think that they're so insulated that they really don't give a fuck.
Marc:It's just like ultimately whatever policies outside of environmental, which is going to affect everybody.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:He knows that none of it's going to touch him.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:There's no effect on his life.
Guest:You know, as an actor, you're always trying to figure out what's your want in the scene.
Guest:What does everybody want in the scene?
Guest:He just wants to stay in front of the crowd.
Guest:He wants to stay with people cheering and yelling.
Guest:He turns every appearance into people cheering and yelling.
Guest:That's his want.
Marc:Yelling, lock her up or kick her out or whatever it is.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But it was fun.
Guest:I had a great time.
Guest:I made a lot of money for Alzheimer's Association and the first time for Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So now the books, this has been your journey through getting healthy and learning a different way to live.
Marc:Because you did position yourself as sort of a self-help person for a while.
Guest:Yeah, of course.
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:For sure.
Guest:Therapy can be self-help.
Guest:Is that what you're...
Marc:No, no, I mean like when you write books about diet, about that kind of stuff.
Guest:No, totally.
Guest:I was doing Chicago on Broadway and writing a book at the same time because, you know, God forbid there's any downtime even with a three and a two-year-old and a three and a half-year-old.
Guest:But, you know, I was like so revved up from all the Fosse afterwards that
Guest:The kids were asleep.
Guest:So I'd go to an office and work with somebody who was, you know, taking notes and we were brainstorming and making tapes and stuff like that.
Guest:And I finished the show and the book came out and immediately the first book and went on the New York Times bestseller list.
Guest:Well, it was the first health book I had written on autobiography.
Marc:What was the first health book called?
Guest:Total Health Makeover.
Guest:Yeah, and it was on the list for a very long time.
Guest:It was great.
Guest:It just gave me another whole career.
Marc:Now, these things, do you tour with them?
Marc:Do you ever go out and do the talks?
Guest:Oh, all the time, like at least 10 times.
Guest:I'm going to Spartanburg, South Carolina next week, and I was just in San Diego.
Guest:I'm going to San Diego again.
Guest:I mean, I go all over the country.
Marc:What's the name of the talk?
Guest:I do different talks because I wrote a memory book, but then also my husband, that's another whole story.
Guest:He and I knew each other in college.
Guest:He was my roommate's boyfriend.
Marc:He was your third husband.
Guest:Third and final.
Guest:He was my roommate's boyfriend.
Guest:We ran into each other in a courthouse in New Orleans when I was getting married to Freddie Forrest.
Guest:I was getting the marriage license and ran into Michael in the hallway.
Guest:He was just passing through, married with kids and stuff.
Guest:But we always liked each other.
Guest:And as he walked away from me, I thought, how come I'm not marrying a guy like that?
Guest:Didn't bode well for my first marriage.
Guest:But anyway, so what happened was we reconnected 16 and a half years ago, got together.
Guest:Within a week, we're saying, I love you.
Guest:You're the love of my life.
Marc:You were both divorced?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Two months later, he's diagnosed with bladder cancer and then lung cancer.
Guest:And I said, failure's not an option.
Guest:You're the love of my life.
Guest:I know the best people, integrative medicine.
Guest:And to make a very long story short...
Guest:No chemo, no radiation.
Guest:He didn't lose his bladder.
Guest:He didn't lose his prostate.
Guest:They were telling us the guy was going to take out his bladder and his prostate and make a neobladder with his intestines and hose up his penis so that if we wanted to have sex, we can pump it up six times.
Guest:And I said, oh, can we have the seven pump model?
Guest:Because we're a sexy couple.
Guest:And I said, what about nutrition, health, detox?
Guest:He said, have all the steak and highballs you want.
Guest:Then we'll do chemo and radiation.
Yeah.
Guest:And then he found out he had lung cancer as well because they did a body scan, two separate sites, two primary sites.
Guest:He totally nursed himself back to health.
Guest:He did have the he was very lucky with the lung cancer because it was bronchial alveolar, which is a very slow growing cancer.
Guest:And it was in a very specific spot of his lower right arm.
Guest:lobe, so right lung, and they took it out from the side, but he never did chemo or radiation.
Guest:He did immunotherapy for the bladder, and he's almost 16 years in remission this November.
Marc:So no chemo but immunotherapy.
Marc:There was definitely medicine involved.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:But just not but total detox.
Guest:He did total, total detox.
Guest:Everything from getting rid of the fillings in his teeth, chelation therapy, totally vegan diet, lots of supplementation, infrared saunas because they get it on the cellular level because a lot of the poisons are in your fat.
Guest:So they kind of clean that out.
Guest:lymphatic massages, high colonics.
Guest:I mean, he did everything, and he continues to do a lot of these things because he's maintained it, and he's been in remission.
Guest:It'll be November 24th.
Guest:It'll be 16 years.
Marc:Well, congratulations.
Guest:Yeah, so we wrote a book about that.
Guest:So we both go sometimes around the country, or I go, to talk to a lot of cancer groups about Michael's Protocol and our journey through all of that.
Guest:But I would have to say that most of the things I do now in terms of speaking have to do with memory, health, and cancer.
Marc:What do you say about memory?
Guest:Well, I talk about the fact that no matter how bad people think their memory is, it's so much better than they realize.
Guest:But you just have to know how to grab onto it.
Guest:Because people who have my kind of memory, we just have an extraordinary retrieval system.
Guest:But all your memories are inside of you.
Guest:They're all part of you and on your emotional heart.
Guest:They're on your emotional hard drive.
Guest:Everybody has a primary track, what I call a primary track.
Guest:It's like in the jigsaw puzzle of your life, what are the hard-edged pieces by which you can interlock the other pieces to?
Guest:And so for a lot of people, it might be gigs that you've played, relationships, places you've lived.
Marc:Everything's becoming sort of a mush.
Guest:Well, because you're in the same place every day.
Marc:No, I've been in too many different places.
Marc:And I can't place people.
Marc:There are chunks of my life that took place in New York, Boston, San Francisco.
Guest:But that should be easier for you.
Guest:Kind of.
Guest:Because memory happens in chunks.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:But when someone comes up to me and they're like, hey, I've met so many people.
Marc:And I used to be pretty good at remembering faces.
Marc:But some of it's just lost.
Guest:Is it pre the 20 years?
Guest:Is it the sobriety?
Marc:Sure, some of it, yeah.
Guest:So it's like two different realities?
Marc:No, it's just like I don't know what's really going on with me.
Marc:It just seems like some things are getting very far away.
Marc:And I think that I'm also overwhelmed and busy all the time.
Marc:And I think it just becomes hard to, you know, like I'm so everything in the present, but like I feel like I'm losing things.
Guest:But are you naturally pruning or do you choose to prune?
Guest:My memory?
Guest:Yeah, because that's a lot of times people, you know, prune away because they don't want to.
Marc:I don't know if I don't think I'm doing it on purpose.
Marc:You know, it just seems like there are different lives I lived.
Guest:But they should be almost easier to track.
Marc:I can track them to a degree.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Guest:Well, the saddest thing that I learned through all of this memory stuff was that in any given year of someone's life, most people remember only 8 to 11 things that happened to them.
Guest:And that to me is just crazy because I can't even imagine that.
Guest:I can't imagine only hanging on to 8 to 11 things that happened within a year.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So if I said to you 2003 or 1997 or 2016 or whatever, that most people would only remember 8 to 11.
Guest:So that's like what does that mean?
Marc:And you can remember everything from every day.
Guest:Pretty much.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Some things take a little bit longer, but some things are so the day of the week just comes up automatically.
Guest:I don't even know how it just just it's there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it just comes up and then it starts to fill in all the details and it gets deeper and deeper the more I start, you know, thinking about it.
Marc:Like if I set a date, you could do that?
Guest:Yeah, tell me a date.
Guest:As long as I'm conscious, not before I'm born.
Guest:Because people go, what about 1800?
Guest:Or could you go back in a memory and like you're in the room, but you go around the door and go, I can't bend time.
Guest:I'm not going to be able to.
Marc:Well, let's say like, okay, so let's say like August 9th, 1999.
Guest:Okay, August 9th, 1999.
Guest:August 9th was a Monday.
Guest:Look it up.
Marc:Okay, I believe you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:What was going on with you that day?
Guest:I was doing Chicago.
Guest:Oh, I know exactly what I was doing.
Guest:Oh, my gosh.
Guest:We went to see Siegfried and Roy that day at the Mirage.
Guest:I was doing Chicago, August 9th, 1999.
Guest:We ate at Cherko the night before.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:and we ate, of course, at the Mirage the day of August 9th.
Guest:I was off that day.
Guest:I had a green top on.
Marc:Wow, and you went with your kids?
Guest:I went with my kids and my husband, and we had a big fight.
Marc:Seriously?
Guest:That was my second husband, yeah.
Marc:About Siegfried and Roy?
Guest:No.
Marc:That's sort of fascinating that you can do that, huh?
Guest:It's fun for me.
Marc:You have a certain type of thing?
Guest:What do you mean?
Guest:What is it called?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's called HSAM, Highly Superior Autobiographical Memory.
Guest:And they've taken 300 measurements of our brains and they found nine areas, 10 times larger than the normal brain.
Guest:And there's very few people in the world who have this.
Guest:There's a group in the 99th percentile and they've relaxed some of the criteria because they needed more money for research.
Guest:There's so few people.
Marc:Do you know the others?
Guest:I met a couple of them.
Guest:Because other than the 60 Minutes thing, I don't know if you saw that.
Guest:I heard about it, yeah.
Guest:It's been life-changing.
Guest:Because, you know, you just grow up with this thing.
Guest:You don't even know it's that weird.
Guest:You don't realize how few people have it.
Guest:And then all of a sudden people are talking about it and you're in medical books and people are testing you and...
Marc:Well, that's very entertaining and it must have something to do with your energy level as well, I guess.
Marc:I don't know what exactly.
Guest:Well, memory is tied to adrenaline.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's why people remember the highs and the lows.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But I'm trying to help people remember.
Marc:But you have all of it all the time.
Marc:Are you making fun of me?
Marc:No.
Guest:I couldn't wait to do your show.
Guest:I was more excited, or almost as excited as when I went on The Tonight Show with Sting, which was maybe my most memorable.
Guest:What day was that?
Guest:May the 13th of 1993.
Guest:It was a Thursday, and I was on with Jay, and I found out Sting was going to be on.
Guest:I totally embarrassed myself, and I didn't care.
Guest:And people to this day stop me about that.
Marc:What did you do?
Guest:Oh, my God.
Guest:I said to him, I was so excited.
Guest:I was like, you know, I love you.
Guest:I couldn't wait to meet you.
Guest:Sting.
Guest:To Sting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I wanted to smell him.
Guest:And, you know, I said, you know how I wrote in the book?
Guest:I said, I wanted to write on the page next to you.
Guest:Mercedes Real was there.
Guest:So I turned the thing over.
Guest:I wrote, please.
Guest:And I wrote on the other side.
Guest:I said, please keep this book close so that Sting is always on top of me.
Guest:You know, I said things like that.
Guest:Was he a nice guy to you?
Guest:You shut up.
Guest:Yes.
Yes.
Marc:He didn't strike me as terrific.
Marc:He seems like a little... Sandoffish.
Marc:Something.
Guest:He's...
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was very nice.
Guest:He was very nice.
Marc:Well, I'm glad.
Marc:It's nice when somebody loves you as a fan to be at least cordial.
Guest:Have you had people come up to you?
Guest:Did you feel accosted by me at the theater?
Marc:No, not accosted.
Marc:No, I was happy to see you.
Guest:You weren't very friendly backstage.
Guest:You went to talk to Annette Bening.
Marc:I was standing there with Annette Bening.
Marc:I have a lot going on there.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Was I nice in the theater?
Marc:I was.
Guest:I never thought I'd hear from you again.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Because you weren't that friendly.
Guest:But that's okay.
Guest:Now I see how friendly you are and how good you are at this.
Marc:I'm very good with my fans and people that know me.
Marc:I try to be gracious and nice.
Marc:If I'm not, it's only because I'm tired or I've been through.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:You know, you're trying to have a day.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:Oh, I know what it's like.
Guest:No, I mean, and I probably hosed you too much about what a fan I was to say, I want to be on your show.
Marc:How did it go?
Marc:Do you feel this show went good?
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Marc:No, no, I think it did too.
Marc:But if you were so excited about it, I don't want you to leave going like that wasn't a good experience.
Marc:That was a letdown.
Guest:And it's funny that, well, first of all, I'm a little disappointed we're not in your garage because of my garage roots.
Marc:Well, I'm sorry to let you down on the garage.
Guest:No, I'm teasing you.
Guest:But also WTF is something that we used to say at taxi all the time.
Guest:Like if there was, we used to have two phrases.
Guest:One of them was if all of a sudden you thought like, what does that joke mean?
Guest:Do you recall it joke obscura?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:joke obscura and we'd point to our script and the other one was like if something took you out of it it was a what the fuck so that you had to like a wtf and we'd write it in our script because if like the person who's watching the show has to turn to the person next to them like what did they just say right right what did that mean so we're always trying to avoid joke jails and wtfs oh in our script well yeah i'm glad that reminds me of it yeah i'm glad you didn't avoid this one
Guest:No, I didn't, of course.
Guest:And the other funny thing that, you know, I told you I did the original Grease in Chicago, but my mother wouldn't come to see it because I said, fuck you in it seven times, my character.
Guest:And she just didn't like me swearing.
Guest:She said, you can take all your clothes off, but you can't swear.
Guest:But then she saw the Broadway version that I did and the on-the-road version, and she saw it, and I still said a lot of fuck yous.
Guest:And she was okay.
Guest:Your daughter was in show business.
Guest:Are you kidding?
Guest:Her dream.
Marc:She acclimated to the fuck yous?
Guest:She loved it.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Well, it was great talking to you.
Marc:Thanks for coming.
Guest:Nice talking to you, too.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:And you know what?
Marc:She was right.
Marc:She was right.
Marc:My birthday was on a Friday.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:I'm going to play some guitar now.
Marc:I have been listening to a little bit too much.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Maybe you can hear it in... You know what?
Marc:I'm going to go.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Enjoy yourselves.
.
.
.
Thank you.
Marc:Boomer lives!