Episode 1048 - Betty Gilpin
Guest:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fucksters?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I am Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:I am broadcasting from the road.
Marc:I am broadcasting from a motel room or a hotel room.
Marc:What is the difference?
Marc:I should know that, right?
Marc:I'm broadcasting from the eighth floor of a hotel in Houston, Texas after just eating some amazing Indian food.
Marc:I bet you didn't see that coming.
Marc:Yep, there's a place here in Houston that I go to all the time I'm here.
Marc:And me and Delray went.
Marc:I'm traveling with Dean Delray.
Marc:He's been opening for me here in Texas.
Marc:No better traveling companion than Dean Delray.
Marc:You know, when people ask me, well, what are your hobbies?
Marc:What do you like to do?
Marc:And I think really...
Marc:One of the great pastimes of my life is driving with a buddy who understands what's happening and is on the same page for hours in a relatively straight line through a very flat state, just blasting hard rock music and playing air guitar, occasionally playing a little air drum.
Marc:uh even i've a couple couple beats of air bass with the head rocking and uh with just you know shivers man chills great time we had great drive in the last part of it we were weaving through a good chunk of texas and you can really see the beauty of the state of texas which there is some you just have to understand the context it's very easy to dismiss sort of like texas yeah
Marc:Who wants to drive through Texas?
Marc:It's a lot.
Marc:But if you if you frame in a different way where you like Texas is is is its own thing, which it definitely is.
Marc:And you appreciate that thing from within it.
Marc:The small, weird towns that were built by Germans.
Marc:God knows when, you know, brick buildings, large ranch lands.
Marc:strange structures even the rv park with the confederate flag fits into the framework and there is sort of a a beauty to it when the hills start to roll a bit and the sky gets big you can feel the expanse of the country of texas uh it is sort of pretty stunning especially when highway to hell is blaring and you're both laughing
Marc:so we drive in we get to opie's barbecue which of course is a regular stop man it was like arriving on on the a beautiful planet because kristen over there who owns the place she knows me she always takes care of me we look at the meats we get some uh brisket we get some baby backs we get some spare ribs get this this jalapeno cheddar sausage that was fucking insane and
Marc:and we just sat there it was glorious what it was one of those days i don't know if you have days that you remember like this or whether they still happen to you where it just everything just times out right you know we had nice time on the road we jammed we had like you know just a legal a legal good time a legal good time and then we arrive and we celebrate with this huge uh beautiful play to meet and
Marc:And then we go back, go to our rooms, nap, and go do a show.
Marc:It was fucking beautiful, man.
Marc:And Dino's just a blast to travel with.
Marc:I don't know if you listen to Dean's podcast, Let There Be Talk, but he talks to all musicians.
Marc:And musicians are starting to dig it.
Marc:And I'm recommending it to you again.
Marc:And he's getting pretty good on stage, too.
Marc:He's kind of fucking...
Marc:Give me a run for the money.
Marc:You know what I'm saying?
Marc:It's hard to keep the guys opening for you when they're giving you a run for the money, right?
Marc:Betty Gilpin.
Marc:Betty Gilpin is on the show today.
Marc:Betty Gilpin, of course, my co-star in Glow.
Marc:And, of course, the star of a movie that no one will see, The Hunt, which was pulled by the distributor because of pushback from...
Marc:i believe mostly people ignorant of the nature or tone of the movie who are on the right side of things not correct side the right side of things but betty is here i talked to her in the garage i love her uh we love each other i love working with her and she's a tremendous actress and a very enjoyable person so that is happening shortly now brace yourself
Marc:Chuck Woolery came to my show in Austin, saw me in Dean.
Marc:Chuck Woolery is friends with the woman who owns Opie's and they both came.
Marc:I always tell her to come.
Marc:She enjoys the show and she's brought Chuck before.
Marc:And a lot of people know Chuck is a sort of a very virulent voice on the Twitter and the airwaves, a very virulent Trumpian Republican voice.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I haven't gone to his Twitter feed, but I know he came to the last show and was respectful and enjoyed the show, enjoyed the intelligence of my performance, was not mean spirited there.
Marc:And he came backstage last night and it was just the Chuck Willery, you know, from television.
Marc:nice guy telling long stories about uh how he started in show business because of his relationship with jonathan winters the amazing comic it's just an odd thing it's a very odd time there was a time before everybody wasn't public and had an outlet to spew their uh political bile that uh you know people's politics were just their politics and you know you could still deal with them as people it's a little challenging and
Marc:uh when when everything's out there i guess for everybody on both sides but you know he was a perfectly pleasant guy and he was respectful and i don't think i changed him in any way i don't think any of my message got through i do not think he went to twitter the the next day and uh pulled back or or rethought some of his stances but uh he did take it in and i imagine there were others in the audience i'll tell you one thing
Marc:For anybody with a certain point of view that is right wing or what have you to sort of be respectful at a presentation of a performance that involves free speech and fairly severe attacks on the current order and religion and be tolerant of that and be, you know,
Marc:sociable and and actually uh entertained is not nothing it is part of bridging the gap and i i guess i have to believe on some level it is a bridgeable gap but then there's the possibility that those people are just going to come up to your face and be smug and bully like and condescending knowing that they've got their you know boot on your throat politically at the current moment don't know don't know how to read it all the time
Marc:So this morning before we kind of changed the entire tone, another beautiful situation.
Marc:We got Dean and I got in the car this morning from Austin and for the drive from Austin to here.
Marc:We went straight Grateful Dead.
Marc:Literally one concert on the Serious Station, the Grateful Dead Serious Station, got us all the way from Austin to Houston.
Marc:And it was glorious.
Marc:Knew most of the songs.
Marc:Dean, not unlike me, not so latent Grateful Dead fan.
Marc:Dean, a little deeper into it.
Marc:But just the sort of the kind of lyrical movement through the smaller highways from Austin to Houston with one concert from I think it was like 1982 all the way down, like almost three hours ago.
Marc:And it was, again, complete opposite of the musical experience the day before, but completely as engaged, different vibe, different conversations, kind of a little more open, a little more free flowing, a little more kind of like...
Marc:I wouldn't say spiritual, but you look at Texas in a different way if you're listening to ACDC's Powerage or you're listening to Stella Blue live.
Marc:It's just a different thing.
Marc:And again, good traveling companion, good times on the road with Dean Del Rey.
Marc:Dig it.
Marc:So did I mention the name of the restaurant?
Marc:Pondicherry.
Marc:Pondicherry is the name of the Indian place that I go in Houston.
Marc:It's in kind of an upscale office park mallish area, but just astounding Indian food.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So Betty Gilpin, Betty Gilpin, Betty is here and we had a great conversation.
Marc:Now we do talk a little about a movie that she starred in that she had a very challenging role in and, and,
Marc:thought it was she did a great job but no one will ever see not for a while anyways we do talk about the film The Hunt which was a satire that was pulled I was it by I don't know who the distributor was I should know but I don't but it was it got some flack from the right wingers who were I think basically ignorant of the subject matter or where it went because it was a satire but given that they're fairly numb to satire
Marc:It probably would have been more along the lines of what they believe should happen, but they immediately pushed back on it.
Marc:I guess the studio crumbled and they pulled the movie.
Marc:But Betty did, you know, fight to get that part and did a great job in it.
Marc:So we talked about it.
Marc:And I think as a conversation about acting and about the business, you know, I think we'll keep that in there.
Marc:Because it's important and maybe someday we'll get to see her work in that film.
Marc:You obviously know Betty from her work with me on GLOW.
Marc:And I think the big news is she's nominated for an Emmy in the category of Outstanding Supporting Actress in a Comedy Series.
Marc:And you can watch season three of GLOW.
Marc:It's now streaming on Netflix now.
Marc:And as I said before, we recorded this conversation with Betty before it was announced that the movie she made, The Hunt, was being shelved by its distributor.
Marc:So so you can watch me and Betty in season three of Glow and hope and hope that she wins.
Marc:This is me and Betty Gilpin.
Marc:The trick is, I guess, from what I understand in the human, is gratitude.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:How are you with gratitude?
Guest:I'm good with it.
Guest:I feel very grateful.
Marc:You do?
Marc:But like actively?
Marc:Does it happen naturally?
Marc:Because I think I need some help.
Guest:Feeling gratitude.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Do you like naturally feel like I'm so, I can't believe this is happening.
Marc:This is great.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, I'm, yeah.
Marc:Everything.
Guest:I'm not so good at that, I guess.
Guest:No, I mean, I wonder, do you feel like you're in trouble because you've made your brand to be like non-gratitude guy?
Marc:Well, I have a hard time with the whole branding of people thing.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Yes, of course.
Marc:Yeah, I have my problems and maybe, you know, I do honor them more than I should.
Marc:But I find I'm genuinely, you know, pretty full of dread and a bit, you know, cranky about things.
Guest:Authentically.
Marc:Authentically, unless I'm totally by myself and I have nothing to do, then it's great.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Marc:I can just play guitar, read a book, not worry about anything for an entire day, not worry about other people.
Marc:Great, I'm sensitive, I'm open, I'm vulnerable.
Marc:As soon as other people- Outside stimulus.
Marc:Or an animal pees on something, it's fucking over.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Then it's sort of like- So is that a defense mechanism?
Marc:What?
Guest:To be barnacally?
Marc:Probably.
Marc:But like most people, the people that I get along with, there's all the people that say I'm an asshole or I'm neurotic or I'm cranky, they just don't have the code.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, you have the code, pretty much.
Marc:You were able to see that, well, this guy's doing this thing and he seems like a pleasant person in there, sweet guy.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But a lot of people, they stop it.
Guest:Oh, I have the Marc Maron code.
Marc:Yeah, that's right.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I feel like I saw you from the very start.
Marc:I know, we talked about that in the last time.
Guest:Okay, we can't.
Marc:No, we can't.
Marc:Initially, I think that I was intimidated, but then you cleared it up.
Marc:You just said that you just put on this thing.
Marc:Doesn't mean you're being an asshole, but you just kind of.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I think we both share the like, we have a kind of fuck you vestibule that people need to walk through in order to get to the seven-year-old who wants your love.
Marc:Yeah, and a lot of times the buzzer in mine doesn't work.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:For sure.
Marc:People keep hitting that buzzer.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Mine's boarded up often as well.
Marc:Well, yeah, I think it's important, though, don't you?
Marc:I mean, I don't know.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:The risk you run is that people judge you as something that you're not.
Marc:But, you know, I think so what?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, it's also I've been thinking a lot about it feels dangerous to like it's like the blessing and the curse of having access to your authentic self and having that be part of your job.
Guest:I just really worry about it sometimes that we're going to take that.
Guest:Open channel to that self for granted.
Guest:And that when it has a price tag on it or when too many people are looking at it, then that channel is going to be cut off or something.
Marc:Or else it's like it's going to become inauthentic because you're aware that it's marketable or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like you're going to overuse it and it'll just wear out.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or like...
Marc:I don't know about that word.
Marc:Isn't it new that authentic is this word?
Guest:Right.
Guest:It's weird.
Marc:I've been thinking about it a lot.
Marc:I don't even know what it really means.
Marc:My authentic self is seven.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, and I think we're all like, oh, my God, the world is ending.
Guest:Like, you know, let's talk about how we're all like shitting our pants and trying to touch God.
Guest:Like, who are you really?
Guest:Let's hold hands and like feel the apocalypse together.
Guest:But I feel like there is a branding of that now.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:branding of vulnerability that is so fucking scary to me that like you know like doing press and having to answer the same questions over and over again I feel this thing where you know you're kind of like oh to protect that
Guest:non-vestibule self I'm actually just gonna like sound bite this version of it so that when I feel that question coming I'm just gonna hit play they'll get the like commercialized vestibule version and I'll protect my inner inner self but then I feel like sometimes when I'm talking to someone I'm like
Guest:Oh, my God, you're giving me a tape recorder vestibule answer right now.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I could be anybody.
Guest:And you just sensed a question coming that you knew.
Guest:So you launched into this like talk show.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That now I've ceased to exist in the conversation.
Marc:Right.
Marc:You're just supposed to do your prerecorded thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Does his prerecorded thing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then it's weird.
Marc:All these vestibules.
Marc:I don't think there's buildings attached to it.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's fucking terrifying.
Guest:That is what I'm feeling.
Guest:I'm like, okay, I've spent... I feel like in selling our show and selling myself and trying to like, you know, fucking use this time to get to a...
Guest:whatever, to get to another level or something.
Guest:I'm like, oh gosh.
Guest:Yeah, it's disgusting and not real.
Guest:But I'm like, oh gosh, I've spent a lot of time in this selling commercial vestibule.
Guest:I'm just going to quick go back into the basement.
Guest:Holy shit, the door's locked.
Guest:Oh, I feel like I feel myself wanting to have an existential crisis, but I'm trapped in the vestibule and there's like a half tube of lip gloss and like a dead baby.
Guest:Like they're like, oh, yeah, we don't have the actual existential tools for a crisis.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Well, yeah.
Marc:The basement's locked and everybody outside's laughing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:They're like, oh, see, we got her.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Now she's one of us.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Welcome to the vestibule.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But then for women especially, I would say the vestibule, you expire from the vestibule.
Guest:They don't let you stay there.
Guest:You've got to go back into the house.
Marc:It's lucky you have a house.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's lucky it's connected to a building, I guess.
Guest:But now I'm terrified that when my tits are in my shoes and no one wants me to memorize lines anymore, I'll be like, okay, I'm going to head back into the house, and the house is going to be completely empty with one nail, and I'll just live out my life eating boxes of Special K and realize when I was in the vestibule, I forgot to water my friendships and marriage and read Moby Dick and be a real person with roots in the ground.
Marc:Right, but at least you know your cereal choice, and it wasn't a common one.
Guest:Special K, is that common?
Marc:Well, I don't know.
Marc:It's something I think people grow up with on the East Coast.
Guest:Right.
Marc:But it's good to have a cereal.
Guest:That's elitist to like Special K?
Marc:No, no, it's not elitist.
Marc:I just associate it with my grandmother.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:In New Jersey.
Guest:I am a grandmother person.
Marc:Well, no, it was one of those original weird healthy cereals.
Marc:It wasn't really healthy.
Marc:Right.
Marc:It wasn't a kid cereal.
Guest:Yeah, I guess that was like probably I was never like anorexic, but I was too depressed to like think about vitamins and protein.
Guest:And I special K was I ate like 12 bowls of special K. That was it.
Marc:Did you put fake sugar on it?
Guest:Oh, oh, like five tablespoons of white sugar.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:All right.
Guest:I wanted it to crunch.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Well, OK.
Marc:So, OK, we deal with the same thing because I think we're similar in that it's sort of a chore to do this dance.
Marc:And what you risk when you are like sort of sensitive or smart is that you're going to, you know, alienate people or say the wrong thing.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then when you try not to do that, it's hard not to hate yourself.
Guest:Well, I also think we're similar in that, like, we've we've found a way to use our demons in our work.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Well, that's interesting because once you process some of your demons, that's who occupies the vestibule.
Marc:And we can be in the house going, look at that asshole, just out there doing the work.
Guest:Right, yes, totally.
Guest:But sometimes it feels like you're on a book tour with the demon and they're wearing bows and lip gloss being like, yeah, I'm so glad that we're working together.
Guest:And you want to be like...
Guest:Also, fuck you still.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's hard when you're struggling with the demon in front of people.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's not great.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It happens a lot.
Marc:With me, it's with anger, though, you know, because I feel it come up if I'm performing or I'm in stand up or whatever, even in acting to a degree that there's a moment there where you're sort of like, you know, fuck this.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Fuck it.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And like you want to say it.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Thank God you've learned enough to be like, you know, maybe keep that guy.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:As long as you keep like throwing them a few stakes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like, see, you got to come out of this show tonight.
Guest:What do you want?
Guest:Ice cream?
Guest:Wasn't that fun?
Guest:Have some ice cream.
Guest:Took a little walk.
Guest:Now back in the house.
Guest:I'm going to go to the vestibule, read a magazine.
Marc:So are you running around all day today?
Guest:Am I running around all day?
Marc:Like doing press?
Guest:I'm doing, Natasha Leone and I are doing a thing for Variety.
Guest:So I've got like.
Marc:Like a talk or a photo shoot or what?
Guest:Both.
Guest:So today the theme of my day is talking to cranky intelligent people.
Marc:I don't have a raspy voice and I speak at a pretty reasonable clip.
Guest:Yeah, but when I read Just Kids, I was like, God, it's such a shame that I don't know anyone like these people.
Guest:Well, I know two.
Guest:I know Marc Maron and Natasha Lyonne.
Marc:Have you seen video or film of Patti Smith when she was in that era?
Marc:She's almost like feral.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's crazy.
Marc:She doesn't even talk.
Marc:You can't even identify her accent.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:She's like a living E.E.
Guest:Cummings heroin needle sea captain person.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I met her one time.
Guest:You did?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In New York?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I did a Sam Shepard play.
Marc:Which one?
Guest:It was a new one that, I mean, RIP.
Guest:I don't know that it would have been done had it not been written by Sam Shepard.
Guest:It was like a nonsensical poem.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Was it a later thing?
Guest:Yes, it was a he had he wrote it on a typewriter and brought it to the first rehearsal and it was the only copy.
Guest:And some intern was like, I'm just going to quickly make copies and like freaked out.
Guest:I've still got a caroac style.
Guest:Yes, it was all very care.
Guest:Like in the rehearsal process, we weren't allowed to ask questions.
Marc:And Sam was there.
Guest:Sam was there.
Guest:Sam was there.
Guest:Was he there?
Guest:And like he, you know.
Marc:You and Sam have a weird relationship.
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Marc:You made Sam's demon hungry.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Is that what happened?
Marc:Is that a nice way to frame it?
Guest:I would say that, yes, with love and respect.
Guest:He's still my hero and that experience was fucking unbelievable.
Guest:But like we weren't allowed to like one day he was like he interrupted a run and he was like, just remember all the colors.
Guest:We were like, you mean like the tones of the scene?
Guest:And he was like, no, no, no, like blue, purple.
Guest:In general.
Guest:Keep going.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We never address colors.
Guest:But yeah, I played a mute ghost nurse.
Marc:And was there any backstory?
Guest:Well, Mark, I wasn't allowed to ask questions.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So you just kind of wouldn't have been avant garde.
Marc:Run with it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So this was sort of like his return to his roots of, you know, doing kind of like, like he's a nobody and he's experimenting and this is what he returned to.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So how's Patty play into it?
Guest:Oh, oh, she came, she was close with him and came to a performance and then like floated into our dressing room and held my face.
Guest:Really?
Guest:It was insane.
Guest:I was like, this is the greatest.
Marc:That must have been, that must have been amazing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was incredible.
Guest:Was anything said?
Guest:I can't remember.
Guest:I just remember being like, you're the craziest looking person I've ever seen in my life in the best way.
Guest:I mean, like, that's what I'm... I feel like she watered her demon into becoming Patti Smith or just was her.
Guest:Like, my dream is to have in my house Patti Smith behind the door of the vestibule and that's what it is back there.
Marc:Well, I think that I saw her once and she...
Marc:if you're gonna use the word authentic properly, I think she's it.
Marc:I think what it is is that it's an integration of self to a point of acceptance where you are who you are and that's really it.
Marc:And you're not apologetic about it.
Marc:And to get there and maintain relationships in a career is tricky.
Guest:Yes, because in order for it to appeal to the masses or for it to get you health insurance, you kind of have to Trojan horse it into what you're doing.
Marc:Primarily for the health insurance.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So whatever you're going to do to try to get that health insurance is probably going to make you sick.
Marc:So you're lucky you have it.
Yes, exactly.
Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a human centipede.
Marc:I've really stifled a lot of myself to get here.
Marc:And now I now I have cancer.
Marc:So I'm glad I'm glad that role worked out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Go to the clinic.
Marc:Go over to Bob Hope any time.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:And now I have pain to draw on for my next role.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:If I make it, if I make it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:Oh, so they did.
Marc:Well, they wrote cowboy mouth together, I think.
Guest:Yes, that's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And there's all these black and white pictures of them like sucking on each other's tongues in the lower side or something.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's so hot.
Marc:But was that, but for me, like, well, I'm older than you, but I mean that, those are.
Guest:Just a few years older.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:Not a lot, a lot older, Betty.
Marc:I'm fucking a lot older.
Marc:I'm almost your father.
Yeah.
Marc:But I mean, I romanticize that whole era and I romanticize those people.
Marc:And they were like the mythic people to me that, you know, they were like that whole scene and the beatniks and all that stuff heading into my intellectual and creative life.
Marc:Those were the people.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And it's weird as I meet a lot of them now, like Bruce Dern was sitting right there where you were yesterday.
Marc:They're just people and they're weird, but they're just people.
Marc:And but they I don't know what it is.
Marc:I don't know how many of your heroes you've met, but it's the ones that can still maintain hero status after you've met them as people.
Marc:Those are the those are the good ones.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or also like hero status and also like, oh, I don't want to think about you filling out a W-2.
Guest:Like, I just want you to exist as like your poem barnacle self.
Marc:Don't meet him.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Don't talk to him then.
Guest:But honestly, that's how I feel about you, Mark.
Marc:I feel like I know you're... I don't feel all my W-2s.
Marc:I've evolved to the point where I have to guide you then.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I can't comprehend that.
Guest:No, but I feel like I know the person in your house, inside, and I'm not interested in the vestibule person.
Guest:Like, I would...
Marc:That's why when he came over, I was almost crying.
Marc:I was like, Betty's coming over.
Marc:You just talk.
Marc:You do the interview.
Marc:And then you show up.
Marc:How are you personally?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:I'm okay.
Guest:But yeah, that's what I'd rather have.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I feel like I want to keep it that way.
Guest:Because I know we don't really know the ins and outs of our logistic lives.
Guest:But I...
Guest:I really love you.
Guest:And I feel like on a barnacle poem inner monster basement level, I really know you and really love you.
Marc:Yeah, I feel that too.
Marc:I don't know when that happened exactly.
Guest:I don't either.
Marc:But I think it was last season.
Guest:Yeah, but I think it's because when we first met, we were like, let's not do the vestibule stuff.
Marc:Yeah, but also let's not really talk to each other.
Guest:Well, I think I was also like...
Guest:I don't want my demon to be activated by... By my demon?
Guest:No, I was like, I don't want to start a punny, flirty relationship and then have to have that fizzle and then be weird.
Guest:I was like, let's just not do that.
Guest:Me.
Guest:I was I was like, that's my that's probably going to be the thing I'm going to try to do.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Not as a you doing it.
Marc:No, I would jump right on.
Marc:And then it would have gotten really uncomfortable.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Marc:It would be like, you know, no, we can't.
Marc:I got it.
Marc:And then.
Guest:All right.
Marc:So what do we do now?
Guest:Right.
Marc:It's awkward for as long as the show goes on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, there are things I could say in general about, you know, the whole process that I probably shouldn't say.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:Maybe after.
Guest:Okay, great.
Marc:And then I'll get you out of my house.
Guest:Okay, yeah.
Marc:Got to go.
Marc:I got to, yeah.
Marc:Bye.
Marc:Nice talking to you.
Marc:And then close the door and go like, oh, fuck.
Marc:We were so close to, oh, man.
Marc:Now I hope there's no fourth season because it's all fucked up.
Guest:No, there has to be.
Guest:I need health insurance.
Marc:Why are you doing movies?
Marc:I don't think I know.
Marc:What are you talking about?
Marc:You never know.
Marc:But I know, of course you don't know, but if you do one independent movie with the kind of like where you're at in your career, you get your insurance for a year.
Guest:Yeah, that's true.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I just don't know.
Guest:Like the whole thing about being grateful, which I really am, I also am like...
Guest:Just always trying to be like, this is going to go away in one second.
Guest:So be grateful.
Guest:I get very embarrassed when I hear people talk about like, and now we're in Versailles forever.
Guest:It's like, we're really not.
Guest:We're going to be replaced in a millisecond.
Marc:I've always had that thought.
Marc:I still frame my career as I'm happy to make a living.
Marc:Obviously, I'm doing okay.
Marc:I don't have a wife or children or debt, which is good.
Marc:I'm very happy about all that.
Marc:But I still frame it like I want to continue making a living.
Marc:Health insurance is nice.
Marc:It's nice to be able to go to the clinic.
Marc:But I do frame my career like that.
Marc:And I think there are people that don't.
Marc:I don't know when we talk about levels.
Marc:Because I have that in my head that like what level am I at and how do you get to this other level?
Marc:What is that level?
Marc:The level where you're surrounded by people, you pay to be around you at all times.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You're insulated.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You become, even if you don't know it, you become a monster.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And a monster like you've never met before.
Marc:Like you don't even know that monster.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Until you're enabled.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And I don't know what the fuck happens to people.
Guest:It's a shallow, uninteresting monster.
Marc:I don't know what happens to people.
Marc:And I don't know, like when we talk about vestibules in the house, it's like about authentic self and about authoritarianism, which I'm adding now.
Marc:And you better know who you are when the shit goes down.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Marc:Because I sort of say that and I think about it.
Marc:I'm not sure why I'm thinking it.
Marc:But like, you know, these questions of self and that kind of stuff, they become real relevant.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:But on some level, it comes down to like, you know, whether I like it on a day-to-day basis or not or whatever, you know, the struggle is to do the work.
Marc:You know, the work is really what is the most important.
Marc:It becomes more...
Marc:Relevant to me than my social life then you because this is where you're present it really happens and then the rest, you know seems to be patterns Yeah, yeah, or that like you forget why if you're if you're so focused on
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I've been feeling this a lot that like so much of my life as a girl and a woman and an actress, it's like running from this monster snapping at my ankles.
Guest:Like it's the special K depression monster.
Marc:Your monster.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:My own self judgment monster.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The monster that says, you know, you're shitty.
Marc:You're not.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or the monster that's like, this is all cute, but when you're ready to stop running, I'm going to eat you and we're going to like kill ourselves, but like stop calling people back and sit and be sad forever.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And just really take it into like an Emily Dickinson place.
Marc:I feel that.
Marc:But don't you find, though, as you've been doing well, your career, however you frame your life's work, you do okay, you're making a living.
Marc:But don't you think that sometimes when some of those problems are solved, that when that feeling of I can slip into this darkness very easily, it is a little countered by some success?
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:So I feel like in this running with the monster snapping at the ankles, we're like running towards this light of like, oh, if I just get there in time and put enough distance between me and the monster or like the balance, then I'll be able to survive.
Guest:But in order to do my work and to be alive, it's like sometimes in a scene or in a talk with you or in a moment alone, I have to stop and let the monster like take over for a second and like inhabit me.
Guest:And then I'm like...
Guest:Okay, and now it's time to run away, because don't stay there too long, because then you'll fucking cross over.
Guest:Yes, but right now, in this second, like this week or whatever, I feel like closer to the light than I ever have been.
Guest:And I'm kind of like, ooh, where's that monster at?
Guest:I know.
Guest:The light is actually made of bugs and plastic.
Guest:I feel like I'm seeing around the corner at that next level that we've all been scrambling for.
Guest:And it looks like maybe nothing's in there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or like, what do I do when I get there?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Because I don't know what to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:What do I even want to do?
Marc:What do I like doing?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And maybe the monster is going to stop chasing me when I'm there.
Guest:Maybe the monster is not going to want to hang around there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'll just be a sucky vocal fry Voldemort person who's trapped in the vestibule.
Marc:Or worse, maybe you're not in the vestibule.
Marc:You're actually outside with a lot of choices on your hands and you're like, I don't know what to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Like if I'm not fighting with that monster and he's just sitting there.
Marc:Come on, why aren't we playing anymore?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:I don't really know because, you know, you spend your life in the struggle and, you know, happiness or what you like to do or you just sort of, I don't know what those things are.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:No, I don't.
Marc:It's fucked up.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:like when people ask me what do you like well occasionally ice creams good I play guitar right I listen to music but don't you want to yeah I don't know oh yeah I've been doing like this is the first I know you've done this forever and I feel like this is like the first year I've had to do like talk shows and stuff and I feel like fun isn't it it is fun but I am having this reaction I totally it's so fun you know how to be funny on purpose
Guest:It's fun to be funny on purpose, but I also feel like there's this, like, gremlin inside that's like, does anyone have, like, a cup of soil I could eat?
Guest:Or, like, I feel like I'm just... Make sure you ask that the next time you appear on a talk show.
Marc:It's like, there's just water on your mug.
Marc:I ask for dirt.
Guest:Is there dirt?
Guest:I just want to, like, eat some soil.
Guest:Like, put period blood under my eyes like I'm a baseball player in, like, a feminist apocalypse and just be like...
Marc:Yeah, that should definitely be your next Colbert opening.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Don't leave out the period blood.
Guest:Great.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because also there's this crazy thing where when I'm on a talk show, I'm also in this weird genetic island where...
Guest:My tits are the size of printers.
Guest:They're in the air right now.
Guest:When I'm on a talk show, I have makeup on my knees, on my hands.
Guest:I've got fake hair in my head.
Guest:I have fake hair on my eyes to look like my lashes are longer.
Guest:There's shading that was started for drag queens that now they're using on...
Guest:Girls, young girls to change the shape of our face.
Guest:I look like a porny poodle version of myself, like an avatar video game version of myself to go like tell a story about like to like cutesify my depression in a soundbite.
Guest:It's amazing.
Marc:But do you have choices?
Marc:I mean, you don't have to wear all that.
Marc:I mean, the boobs are going to stay, but you don't have to do the other stuff.
Guest:No, exactly.
Guest:I'm not saying like, oh, and now I'm forced to do this.
Marc:I like it when your hair is just down and, you know, no makeup-y.
Guest:Yeah, well, I like that too.
Guest:But it's strange.
Guest:I always play the girl whose books I carried in high school, who is a girly alpha porn poodle person.
Marc:Oh, you play them in roles, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, and it confuses me that I'm like, oh, am I here for the Patti Smith basement stuff?
Marc:Or no.
Guest:Or am I here for the porny poodle stuff?
Guest:Because that stuff's going to expire.
Guest:So are you guys going to trade me in in a year when...
Marc:I think you, but I feel, you know, I feel for you is that you'll, you'll level off, you'll be comfortable.
Marc:You go out there, you know, you'll just be like, you know, maybe you'll travel with Patti Smith to talk shows.
Guest:That's, that's by the way, a huge stretch that I would ever think that I could ever, I just mean like my inner, I should be like my inner fucking Avril Lavigne that I think is Patti Smith.
Marc:No, come on.
Marc:But if we go back, though, because the theater thing, I became sort of fascinated.
Marc:I don't think we talked about this the last time.
Marc:I know a little bit of what we talked about.
Marc:But on an acting level, what's interesting for me, once I got to know you and Allison and then I did scenes with both of you, more with you the second season or whenever it happened,
Marc:But it's like there are these two schools of acting, just sort of like you're New York and she's L.A.
Marc:And there's definitely a different approach.
Guest:Right.
Marc:You know, in a sense that, you know, when you when I watch her, you know, the way she makes choices and the way, you know, she locks into things, you know, there there's definitely a different approach to acting that I think is an L.A.
Marc:thing.
Marc:Whereas in New York, you know, you're rolling around mud, soil, period, blood, doing poetry, being mute.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Yeah, just wasting our money, crying about our childhoods in pajamas for four years.
Guest:But I don't know if it is a waste.
Marc:Do you?
Marc:I mean, maybe it's a waste if you look at it from the outside.
Marc:I know that's one way to look at the process of acting classes, how many people really make it out of there with chops or with the ability to act and how many people are just kind of processing problems.
Marc:But it seems to me that all that stuff, the way I did it on stage publicly on my own volition, I do think it amounts to something.
Guest:Yes, I do.
Guest:I think it amounts to being able to trick your brain into going from the vestibule into the house.
Guest:In theater school, I feel like I filled that house with an ocean of weird and dark images and explored the weirdest, darkest, non-vestibule-ist parts of myself that I can then access.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Public.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you were able to to sort of like, you know, when I talk to people who start comedy, I say like with the beginning, you have nothing to lose.
Marc:So do whatever the fuck you want to do.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So you can figure out what your territory is on stage, you know, like where you can go.
Marc:So like once you go out there.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, it's like you own that space if you want to use it.
Marc:You don't always have to go out there, but, you know, you've been there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I think it gets trickier to go from your like it.
Guest:It is a mind fuck to me that a day on set starts with two hours of me porn poodling myself or like professional artists.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or any like when I play a lawyer, it's two hours of painting and sculpting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then to be like, OK, and now I'm going to go into my work day where I have to, like, try to swim in the ocean of weird and forget that I have to also pay this toll.
Marc:That you've been you've been designed as an object for the male gaze.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Here you go.
Marc:Now go be you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or go be someone else.
Guest:Like go access demon-y people inside you.
Guest:It's hard to like, like sometimes I'll look down at my sides and I'll have written something where I'm like, like, okay, all right.
Guest:People are adjusting my, okay, suck it in, be here.
Guest:Um, get shoulders back.
Guest:Um, okay.
Guest:Someone's sewing the thing on my boobs so they don't hulk out in the middle of the scene.
Guest:Um,
Guest:All right, and we've touched up the lip gloss, and ow, we're teasing the hair.
Guest:Okay, I'm looking at my sides, and I've written down on this line to have a homeless witch come out of my throat and grab Mark's eyelash for dear life.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:I don't know that I know how to do that anymore.
Marc:I'm glad that you used to.
Guest:But sometimes I do.
Guest:Sometimes I really do.
Guest:Is that part, you write poetry and that's your... Or I just like abstractify the fuck out of, like in my iPhoto library, I have pictures of Jonestown.
Yeah.
Marc:You mean those pictures of the bodies?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Because I find it harder to get from that vestibule into the house now.
Guest:The door used to just be open all the time.
Guest:When I was doing off-Broadway theater that no one cared and no one was watching and the play was bad anyway, I was walking in and out of that house.
Marc:There's nothing on the lines.
Guest:nothing on the line and like I just wasn't questioning my value I guess or it just was yeah yes it was the gift of invisibility and now that there's some visibility like sometimes it's fucking harder to get in there to the part of myself that is the most valuable part to me and that's probably exactly what happens to those people we were talking about before when they become this monster they just get padlocked in there
Marc:Well, yeah, they can't like their side.
Marc:Yeah, because the expectations are so intense.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You know, like if you were operating at a level that some, you know, actors operate at and the expectations are at a certain level.
Guest:Right.
Marc:I mean, like just I mean, I can't and I don't know how they do it.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And that's and they've been accustomed to the life that that has got them.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And they have to do it every time.
Marc:I mean, everyone has to act.
Marc:But I guess what I'm saying is like, you know, if you're forced to live in that vestibule, you know, and you're not the risks you take are relative to that.
Marc:You know, how do you get back there?
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:And the loneliness of being in that vestibule when you're like, oh, the only form of love and validation I'm going to get is like.
Guest:Like I just went to Comic-Con and I did some panel.
Guest:For what?
Guest:For The Hunt, this movie.
Guest:But the panel was like action women.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it was right before the Marvel panel.
Guest:So it was in Hall H. There were literally 7,000 people there.
Guest:And I made a joke.
Guest:So 7,000 people who were there to see the panel after ours.
Guest:But I made a joke and 7,000 people laughed.
Guest:I know you're used to way more.
Guest:No, 7,000 is high.
Guest:But I mean like the wave of like the heroin hit of validation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, whoa, that's amazing.
Guest:That's amazing.
Guest:probably really addictive when you're feeling very lonely in your personal life.
Guest:Like, and it must be hard to then, like, I remember then I called my brother on the phone and I had to be like, whoa, ask him a question.
Guest:Listen to what he's saying.
Guest:Don't zone out thinking about that moment when 7,000 people laughed at your stupid non-joke.
Guest:Check the picture of Jonestown.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:That is why I have Jonestown on my phone.
Guest:Because I'm like,
Guest:look at a pile of dead bodies.
Marc:Yeah, I feel so good.
Marc:Oh.
Guest:Or just like, yeah, I'm just, you know, I want to have a baby someday and I'm so scared I'm going to give birth and the baby's going to be like, that's who you are.
Marc:Oh, come on.
Marc:That's the one thing you can fool is a baby.
Guest:Maybe a boy baby.
Guest:A girl baby's like, I see you, bitch.
Marc:Yeah, but you got six years, probably five or six years.
Guest:Till I what?
Marc:Till they see you.
Guest:Oh, great.
Yeah.
Marc:But like your parents, I mean, were they did you know them to as actors or both actors?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But did you see them like do any of that kind of real work?
Marc:I mean, was there a point where you watched your dad or your mom on stage and, you know, you saw, you know, what made it amazing that did they take chances?
Marc:Were they that kind of actor?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:100% they you know they did they were New York actors in the 80s and 90s and still but in the 80s and 90s if you were a New York actor you did mostly theater and what's your old man's name Jack Gilpin and your mom and McDonough so yeah so their theater primarily
Guest:Yes, yeah.
Guest:I think you would recognize both of them as, like... I know them.
Marc:I've looked them up before.
Marc:I know your dad.
Marc:I haven't looked up your mom.
Guest:But for the public, I think you would be like, oh, yeah, that guy in... Like, he was in, like, Funny Farm and Revenge of the Nerds Part 2 and Quick Change and, like, a slew of... My mom was in Moonstruck, like, bit parts in 80s movies.
Guest:She'd be like, holy shit, that person.
Guest:But I also saw them, you know, I would watch them, yeah, in plays...
Guest:I remember seeing my dad when I was like seven at a play at Hartford stage.
Guest:And he played a dude who left his family.
Guest:And he had this monologue on the lawn of his house about the reasons he wanted to leave his kids.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I remember being like, oh, whoa, my dad has like a foot in the river of other humans thoughts.
Guest:That is it.
Guest:I think it made them great parents because they I don't know, they put themselves in the shoes of murderers and.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And that was your response as opposed to like, that's what he's really thinking.
Guest:Probably not till later.
Guest:I mean... Who are you?
Guest:Now I think about like, oh, I bet there were times where they had amazing days at rehearsal where they touched their monster selves and it felt like God was in the room and they cracked their ribs open and showed their soul to someone and the other person was like, I see your soul.
Guest:And then they came back to like...
Guest:me having shit on the rug.
Guest:They were like, I'd love to leave now.
Guest:I'm sure that happened a million times.
Marc:Do you ever talk to them about acting?
Guest:A little bit.
Guest:I mean, sometimes I'm like, you know what?
Guest:It's better if you just think I'm a candlestick maker.
Guest:But they know.
Marc:On some level, there's got to be that weird mixture of pride and envy to the attention you're getting as an actress.
Guest:I mean, I think that...
Guest:I knew you would ask that.
Guest:I think that I think I realized that we I think generationally just approach it in a very different way.
Guest:Like I think they were doing theater as I think of like.
Guest:There's so much dark shit.
Guest:Let's build a stage over it and tap dance on top of it and celebrate life and be ensemble members in this production of Hay Fever and celebrate and escape.
Guest:And I'm like, let's rip that trap door open and use... That sounds so elitist and like they weren't doing deep stuff.
Guest:They totally were.
Guest:But I think I was like...
Guest:Fell in love with the magic of it when I was little.
Guest:And then when I was like 15 realized like, oh, I have a darkness in me that might kill me.
Guest:Let's try to funnel this into something.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So that's sort of like, but I think that comes with the generation that, you know, identified with those sort of rock and roll heroes and those raw, weird people.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Like, I don't know that their generation had them in the same way.
Marc:I mean, I would think that in theater, you know, like I would think that doing, you know, O'Neill or a weird ass Pinter play for them was, you know, that was the edge.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And, you know, for us is like in life, there were these people living these lives.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That implied something, you know, poetically enchanting, but dark and risky.
Marc:And, you know, we we respected and idolized the lifestyle of weirdos.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:And I don't think they had that.
Marc:I think that and I still think the weird thing about what we do, even with Glow and given the world that we're living in currently, I still get that feeling that no matter what I feel, you know, in my inner self or the house or the vestibule is that why are we entertaining anymore?
Marc:We're in trouble.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:You know, so we should all be like just getting, you know, every TV show should be like, how do we we got to fix this.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But so there's always, I think, that element.
Marc:I think that is the nature and the beauty and the importance of theater and comedy or whatever that you are dancing on that.
Marc:board above the darkness.
Guest:Right.
Marc:In order to make sure people don't, you know, drift away into hopelessness.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Or like the meaninglessness.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And that our job is now to actually like completely dissemble the structure and be like, let's get down to anything that unifies us at all.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And now, yeah.
Marc:And also the counter that the structure and the monster that it is, is emboldened and empowered and, you know, and completely consuming and destructive.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:What's your brother do?
Guest:I have two younger brothers.
Guest:They're in like a business thing that he's explained to me so many times and I don't understand.
Guest:It involves a desk and a phone and numbers and calls.
Guest:And it's important, Mark.
Guest:Oh, is it important?
Marc:Of course it's important.
Marc:It's difficult.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But it's starting to work.
Guest:It's starting to work.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And he's going to fix it all tomorrow.
Guest:And my youngest brother, Harry, has been working on sets in New York.
Guest:In the theater?
Guest:Or in the movies?
Guest:TVs?
Guest:In the TVs.
Marc:Oh, like over at Silver Cup or something?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That's cool.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I like those people.
Guest:I love those people.
Marc:It's sort of like, how'd you guys make this?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You built a whole thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, thank God there's people with briefcases here who can put a subject and predicate together.
Marc:I wish I could do, you know, there's always that part of me that's sort of like, this seems like the real work.
Marc:You built this inside another building and we live there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Our privileged asses who get to be like Ernest Hemingway's in diapers being like, I'm feeling things.
Guest:Commercialize it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I can't fill out that form though.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then there's a guy with a hammer going like, here we go.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:This is the life.
Marc:But they seem to like it, I think.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I hope.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I always feel weird about that.
Marc:It's like when you, can we do another take?
Marc:And there's this like, I project a bunch of people going, oh, God.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Camera people just like, oh, my God.
Guest:Oh, yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I mean, it's very weird that we're like trying not to look fat and using our childhood traumas.
Guest:To like coax a ghost into the room in a scene right next to a dude who's like, traffic's going to be fucking horrible.
Guest:It's so stupid.
Guest:It's so embarrassing.
Marc:Kind of.
Guest:It's very embarrassing.
Marc:Well, what is it that you have in yourself?
Marc:How do you validate it to yourself?
Marc:Because I'm finding that the more I talk to actors that there is a party line on it.
Marc:You know, which is usually somewhere in the vicinity of like, I love telling stories.
Marc:I don't know if I ever thought of that.
Marc:Like every time an actor says it to me, I guess they are stories and you are telling it.
Marc:But I've heard several actors say that, like that it's about honoring the story.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know about that.
Marc:I don't either.
Marc:Have you heard that before?
Guest:Yeah, for sure.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I think it's a combination of trying to touch God within yourself and also distract yourself from the fact that there is no God.
Guest:So let's entertain ourselves along the way.
Marc:Well, what is it like?
Marc:What is a peak moment for you?
Marc:How do you know that you've done a good thing?
Guest:I think I feel like I've done a good thing when... I would say I feel like the little scroll that has who I am exactly written is so... It feels like...
Guest:locked up so far inside and has always been that way and I feel like I've always I've spent my life like trying to shake people by the collar being like you're not seeing me I'm and the person you think I am is not who I am and you're getting it wrong and I'm gonna die before you get it right and that terrifies me and to me when a scene is going well
Guest:I feel like that scroll is being read out loud and a person's like, I'm reading it exactly for what it says.
Guest:And that feels like church to me.
Marc:You feel seen.
Guest:I feel seen and I feel like communion with someone and I feel love.
Guest:And I feel like I'm reading their scroll at the same time.
Guest:And it feels like important, like my life has value and that like life in general has value.
Guest:But I think as a result, there's so much risk involved in that being your job because it feels so horrible when people are misreading the scroll.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In a public, public way.
Marc:Yeah, I can see that.
Marc:But I also don't, but it seems like that crosses over into real life.
Marc:You know, like people project onto people all the time.
Marc:So I guess that in the sense, you know, they make assumptions based on whatever little information they have about you or whatever vibe they're picking up from you.
Marc:But when it's structured and you are actually playing a role and you put together a character,
Marc:and that there is no need for projection because you are, in a sense, living in that present with that thing.
Marc:So if that connects, I can understand how that would equate being seen as opposed to, because I think that's the heightened reality of theater and what we do is that there's no reason to project.
Marc:You're presented probably for the first time in your day or your week or your life if you go see a show that you don't have to do that.
Marc:This is who it is.
Guest:Yeah, right, right.
Marc:So if you inhabit that properly and you feel connected to it, then I could see how that all makes sense.
Marc:Whereas out in the world, when you're doing a talk show and you're pornified or whatever, the porn poodle and everything else, is that you become this weird kind of...
Marc:thing that people will project on, the celebrity in general or anybody who lives a public life.
Marc:They're like, oh, that person's like this and we would like each other.
Marc:But when you're actually in the character, you have the freedom to engage all of who you are, you know, without the projections because it's defined for you.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And then you can do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm trying to do a thing that I don't know if it's going to work that I like.
Guest:And like working with Geena Davis, for instance, like I feel like I met her at the exact right time, seeing that she who is someone who in Tootsie was the most beautiful woman that ever existed.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I feel like they let her cross the moat into the next place because they were like, you're the most beautiful woman that existed.
Guest:And I feel like she crossed that moat holding her brain in her hands being like, and this is fucking coming to.
Guest:Like holding that scroll.
Guest:Like I feel like she...
Guest:I did that, and it's kind of really fucking hard to do.
Guest:And I'm a hideous goblin.
Guest:I'm not saying I'm Geena Davis, but I'm saying I feel like I'm crossing the moat for the porn poodle reasons, and I'm trying to be like, and here's the scroll also.
Guest:The scroll's coming too.
Guest:And that's why I try to write, and it's why I try to...
Guest:On talk shows, even though I look like my porn poodle self, I tried to on Jimmy Kimmel tell a story about shitting my pants on the set of Nurse Jackie and they wouldn't let me.
Marc:Well, how did that happen?
Guest:Tell her here.
Guest:Well...
Marc:You're all ready to tell it to on national television.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, I shit my pants on set one day and I just feel like it was a I had to be naked a ton on that show.
Guest:And I was really trapped in the porn poodle.
Guest:I started to believe that the reason I was there was only porn poodle reasons and no Patti Smith Monster Scroll reasons.
Marc:Well, they made you do a lot of that.
Guest:Yeah, a ton.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You saw my aerial as before you saw my face on that show.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But I tried to Trojan horse in some Patti Smith stuff.
Marc:By shitting your pants?
Guest:Honestly, yeah.
Guest:I think that that part of me was kicked down the vestibule door and was like, you never fucking forget where you came from.
Marc:So you did it like that in the middle of a take?
Guest:Not in the middle of a take.
Guest:I had just gone through hair and makeup.
Guest:And that, I mean, that hair and makeup was true porn poodleness.
Guest:Like a golden birthday cake on my head as a hairstyle and like teal eyeshadow up to my brow to play a doctor.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And like dowry advertising clothes and shoes.
Guest:I mean, it was.
Marc:So you snuck away to shit your pants?
Guest:I went through hair and makeup and then was walking to go change.
Guest:Thank God I was not in that expensive costume and was like, oh, I think I'm about to shit my pants.
Guest:And then shat my pants.
Guest:And the second after it happened, they were like, we're ready for you.
Guest:And you're scrambling.
Guest:I gotta, you know what?
Guest:I'm gonna take a quick shower.
Guest:The person's like, a shower?
Guest:What?
Guest:That's gonna set us back two and a half hours.
Guest:You're in full porn poodle makeup.
Guest:I was like, you know what?
Guest:It's just to wake up my body.
Guest:My head's gonna be out of the shower.
Guest:It's my process.
Marc:Yeah, and they walked away fucking diva.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:And you're trying to clean shit up.
Guest:Yeah, and I'm like sobbing, having shat my Lululemons.
Guest:that i threw in the garbage you gotta throw them in the garbage yeah you can't wash them what are you gonna do it's like that's gone it's over and then it was the same studio as sesame street and michelle obama did an episode of sesame street like two days later yeah and they had like guard cia dogs like sniff all our rooms and the dog came in and looked at me and was like you shot your pants two days ago yeah
Marc:I hear it.
Marc:I understand.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:You know, you got to do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But that dog saw my inner scroll.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:My inner Patti Smith.
Marc:And yeah, the dog did.
Marc:The dog.
Marc:Now the challenge is to make other, you know, conscious animals.
Marc:Dogs can always see it.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:That's why dogs are so important.
Marc:They see right to it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And if dogs are weird about it, you're like, I'm in trouble.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah, I'm in the vestibule now.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Because I know you talk about it a lot, but do you think...
Marc:Are we in some sort of change around this shit in terms of objectification?
Marc:Because I talk to Gina about it.
Marc:Some people say I talk too much to Gina about it.
Marc:I actually have been accused a few times of mansplaining
Marc:Gina's movie and her foundation to Gina but cool that's fun I was no but I think it was misunderstood I was excited I watched a movie misunderstood and Gina oddly that then people don't know this not a huge talker no she's very quiet yeah you yeah and when you're in this situation right you know I'm gonna need a little more than like oh yeah yeah and I will tend to nervously fill in yeah entire episodes right you're just a man talking yeah maybe not explaining
Marc:No, no, I was excited.
Marc:But do you feel that as vocal as you are, even if it's in metaphor, that there is something shifting?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I worry.
Guest:I feel like right now we're at the crossroads of choosing whether we're going to be Kylie Jenner or Frances McDormand.
Guest:And I think that we're trying to...
Guest:straddle the line and I don't know how long we can do that.
Marc:Before what happens?
Marc:Before... Just default into Kylie Jenner?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And we get trapped in that.
Guest:Like I, you know, on all these panels where we're saying now more than ever and how everything's changed and fixed, I'm in full porn poodle makeup.
Guest:And I want to be in that because the male gaze representative in my brain is like, don't let them see your true hideous self.
Right.
Marc:Yeah, well, how do you, I mean, that seems to be like, that was part of the thing I talked to Gina about is that the paradigm is what it is because we've all been swimming in the same ocean.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That, you know, for generations or for centuries or however long it's been, you know, women would see themselves in relation to men.
Guest:Right.
Marc:So they installed that paradigm.
Guest:inner male gaze in themselves yeah yeah well the patriarchy forced it to be installed right but yeah but the the sort of conception yeah the patriarchy was the water we were all swimming in so like so like in your life how does that start to change well I think like it's fucking really hard and it's I think like
Guest:Being a woman, like I look back on so much of like my sexual experience, for instance, like that I feel like men take for granted that they have not.
Guest:OK, now we're speaking in generalities and it's getting risky, but.
Guest:I feel like most of the men I've talked to, their sexual experience has been, their inner Skrull Patti Smith has had that experience.
Guest:And a lot of my, or girls, it has to be filtered through the vestibule.
Guest:Like I had vestibule sex for most of my life of like posing and trying to, and like...
Guest:playing a character or, and not really being like, am I enjoying this?
Guest:Do I want to be here?
Guest:Uh, and like friendships or like just filtering through a Kylie cell male gaze, uh,
Guest:room to try and pitch yourself to the world to ask it permission to stay in the world.
Guest:And I think reclaiming those things that were built by the patriarchy first is going to take a lot of time.
Guest:Like putting on lipstick because I want to put on lipstick or brushing my hair because I want to brush my hair and not because I'm trying to get a husband before 20.
Guest:But all these things were founded...
Guest:by a society that we're trying to dissemble but still fucking exists.
Marc:I think the word dissembled as opposed to reconfigured.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:Is probably better.
Marc:And I think that's what really struck me about the conversation I had with Gina that I had both sides of, apparently, is that...
Marc:The idea of more representation for women and people of color in all different areas of life, equal pay, and just not prejudice in relation to those things in employment.
Marc:Because I think a lot of what we're talking about, it happens on all these
Marc:you know, these structures of the paradigm.
Marc:But in people's personal life, like, you know, you have a person in your life that accepts the scroll and the house and everything else and you can be seen.
Marc:And I think in a lot of people's personal lives, they struggle with that stuff.
Marc:But, you know, some resolution is happening and those conversations happen.
Marc:But it's in the larger world of media representation and employment.
Marc:Where these things are really a problem and they don't really represent how people live their lives.
Marc:So I think if you view the challenge like that, it becomes, you know, then you're asking something different of creators and you're asking something different of yourself.
Marc:And a lot of times I don't think they want real representation.
Marc:I think they want fantasy and I think they want...
Guest:Well, that's what it is.
Guest:It's like it's so much of being a woman in the world that you're still dealing in fantasy and smoke and mirrors.
Guest:Like every time I've kissed someone on screen, they've been at least 10 years older than me.
Guest:I've been playing mothers of...
Guest:10-year-olds for 15 years.
Guest:I'm 33.
Guest:I'm about to play the mother of a 12-year-old.
Guest:And I, in my life, am just starting to think about when I should think about having a baby.
Guest:And, you know, I... A lot of times...
Guest:Even on our feminist show, I don't know.
Guest:I'm my smoky mirror-iest self on that show.
Marc:But the weird thing about that is I think that what it speaks to in terms of these other roles is that I think that the paradigm of expectations from particular stories and the business that they will...
Marc:sort of encourage or the money they will make are kind of stuck right so like you know you're saying that different stories need to be told you know that are appropriate to the lives we're living or to where you are in your life or to how this stuff really works right and i think that the the thing about glow is it kind of does this interesting thing where yeah there's a spectacle of
Marc:But the weird thing about the spectacle of objectification that it presents is that it's not really sexualized.
Marc:And I don't know.
Marc:And I'm a pretty sensitive, compulsively sexual person.
Marc:But I don't feel that when I watch GLOW, the counterbalance of the sort of garishness of that particular period of sexualization is a little bit much.
Marc:But it's not campy in the show.
Marc:But the counterbalance to...
Marc:to that is the wrestling, and then to the struggles of these individual women.
Marc:So it does sort of an interesting trick that I think works most of the time.
Guest:Yeah, no, I agree.
Marc:Yeah, and I can't, and the other thing as a man that I'm trying to talk about on stage is that it's not, I don't think it's most men's, I think they lack the ability sort of inherently to be empathetic to women in a specific way.
Guest:They lack the ability to be empathetic to women in a specific way.
Marc:Because we don't live your life.
Marc:So we really have to be taught.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's a weird thing, but I think it's true.
Marc:I mean, you know, we can have sensitivity to the struggle of people.
Marc:But, you know, what's happening, I think, in terms of, you know, men and women is that there's a demand to really understand the struggles that are inherent in just existing relationships.
Marc:as a woman.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Which is, we don't know what that is.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I think you're so used to seeing post-vestibule women and you're like, oh, that's just how they are.
Guest:And you're like, oh no, I've been, first I was sobbing in the basement and then I had to come into the vestibule to smoke and mirrorify myself, wipe my tears and then come out and be like, everything okay out here?
Guest:You still up?
Yeah.
Guest:But like, I think that that's what's so exciting about now is that, you know, it's not this new thing that suddenly we're Frances McDormand finding ourselves like it's it's from centuries ago, women screaming into their hoop skirts like sometimes I want to die.
Guest:And sometimes I think that I could lift this table with the electricity in my eyes.
Guest:And yet there's just no part of my day that lets me do that.
Guest:My day is to plan this party and to be quiet and marry that disgusting, obese, rapey gargoyle person.
Marc:And take these pills and then be diagnosed with melancholia.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And be sent away.
Marc:And lobotomized.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I should have been a CEO.
Guest:But instead I have to like have this beehive hairstyle and give up all my dreams.
Guest:Give up all my dreams and hold the needs of everyone in the room in my hands.
Guest:And I wish I didn't have a constant bird's eye view of the pain of the world.
Guest:But I do.
Guest:Maybe someday that'll be funneled into like the tunnel vision that...
Guest:this fucker seems to have where he leaves the wet towel on the bed and enacts genocide because he doesn't hold the needs of everyone in the room in his hands.
Guest:But I actually think a leader would be best to have a bird's eye view of all the pain in the world and not just rapey gargoyle tunnel vision.
Guest:I think we're all done with that now.
Marc:And I think that... And that's the last poem she wrote before she stuck her head in the oven.
Yeah.
Guest:You know my alias is Sylvia Plath.
Guest:Now I have to change it, but literally I'm checked into the hotel Sylvia Plath right now.
Guest:And they didn't know who that was.
Guest:No one does.
Guest:No one does.
Guest:I mean, I think that we're having to learn the opposite lessons.
Guest:We're...
Guest:Not all.
Guest:Some women I know know it from birth.
Guest:But I, Betty, am learning how to have fuck you tunnel vision sometimes.
Guest:I think I wasted a lot of time in my career being like, oh, I've found a career where...
Guest:This Patti Smith scroll darkness of holding all the needs of everyone in the room and feeling the pain of the world, I can funnel that into a career.
Guest:But things like ambition and tunnel vision, those are things to be ashamed of.
Guest:And that takes up too much space.
Guest:So I'm not going to do that.
Guest:And as a result, I didn't really work for a decade because I wasn't really like fighting for myself.
Guest:But now I'm learning that I'm learning a little Trumpian fuck youness to to be like, yeah, I'm going to fight for myself so that now I can get this job where then I can use the beta parts of feeling the pain.
Guest:And I think men are using are having to learn the opposite lesson of like.
Guest:There's not just you in this room.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that woman next to you has been sobbing into her hoop skirt for 300 years.
Guest:And maybe you should ask her some questions because she's going to be your president.
Marc:But then she'll just keep talking.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's going to go over well.
Marc:Here comes the talking.
Yeah.
Marc:But what is this, the movie that they didn't set up a screening for me to see and that we can only talk limited?
Marc:It's okay.
Marc:But I hear it's amazing.
Guest:Is it amazing?
Guest:I think it is.
Marc:Did you see it?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's called The Hunt.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I would say in light of what we're talking about, this is the first time that I feel like there's no vestibule at all.
Guest:Like I'm just my gremlin-iest...
Guest:Like McDormandy-ist, like Avril Lavini-ist crystal meth self.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I'm afraid I'll be executed for it.
Guest:I mean, like, just because I'm like, oh, God.
Marc:You mean Betty's afraid she'll be executed career-wise for it?
Guest:I'm afraid they'll be like, oh, you don't naturally have, like...
Guest:eyelashes that you're not a porn poodle oh yeah we got to put you down this poodle's got to be put down no but uh no i i also like it's um yeah i think character wise it's sort of a lot closer to the um mentally ill gargoyle woman i am yeah so we'll see but i'm i'm really excited about it
Marc:I remember when he went away to do it, so it was like really.
Guest:It overlapped with glow.
Marc:And he sent some, there were some pictures, very, you know, nondescript pictures of you looking crazy.
Guest:Yeah, I look crazy.
Guest:Well, it was a big coup that they let, you know, one of the rat-faced people of television in the lead in a movie.
Guest:It was a crazy, I was playing the drunk mother in a dog movie sequel when I made a tape for it.
Marc:What movie was that?
Marc:Did people go see it?
Guest:Dog's Journey.
Marc:Is it out?
Guest:Yeah, it's out.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Is that enough said?
Guest:I mean, I play a woman who, it's a family dog movie, and I play a woman who is drunk the whole movie and hates dogs and children.
Guest:I fat shame a nine-year-old in the movie, and I kick a beagle in the face.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Well, that sounds like demon stuff.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Oh, there was demon stuff.
Guest:Oh, boy.
Guest:We shot in Winnipeg.
Guest:It was a dark time for me.
Guest:And so I auditioned for this movie, and then when I got the part, I was like...
Guest:Holy shit, the like craziest version of my career that I never thought possible is maybe going to happen.
Guest:And then it overlapped with Netflix and Netflix was going to maybe not let me do it.
Guest:And I like got some male tunnel vision.
Guest:Fuck you-ness.
Guest:And I...
Guest:And but with the vulnerability of I basically like used vulnerability balls and wrote letters for two months.
Marc:And Netflix executives and everyone.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, picture a girl with a dream.
Guest:Run on sentence college essays.
Guest:And and they made it.
Guest:I mean, Cindy Holland is my savior.
Marc:I can't believe... She's in Netflix.
Marc:There's two big shots.
Marc:She's one of them.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Ted Sarandos, who also... I mean, so, yeah.
Guest:Well, that's great.
Guest:I can't believe... Yeah.
Marc:Oh, did you thank her and send her a basket?
Guest:Flowers, yes.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I sent her a basket.
Guest:Yeah, I'll be in her debt forever.
Marc:An edible bouquet?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Some melons on sticks?
Guest:But even after all that happened, I'm like...
Guest:really would like that cup of soil yeah well it sounds like you got some soil yeah this felt like soil yeah well I mean what what does that metaphor mean to you cup of soil um to me it's like knocking down the vestibule door to go into the other metaphor oh you feel like you need to you need to kind of look at a picture of Jonestown right I get it yeah yeah yeah
Marc:Well, what do you I mean, it sounds like but it sounds like the work you did on there was, you know, pretty in the dirt.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Soily work for sure.
Guest:I guess I'm just being like, oh, maybe the point that I've been searching for is not to like find the work to channel the
Marc:soil monster Patty Smith stuff into but like to have that be just integrated into my life that's the trick man right that's I mean that's like the hardest thing is like you know the soil monster is one thing I mean that's easier to integrate than the fucking child you've been protecting
Guest:Right.
Marc:That's the hardest one for me.
Marc:You know, that if we're going to say this authentic self, like whoever you are emotionally or however you define your mental illness, mine, you know, manifests itself as being, you know, incredibly emotionally immature, you know, for whatever reason.
Marc:I know why selfish parents and, you know, you put some other parent in place and it wasn't great.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And so you just sort of, you know, guarded this fucking kid.
Marc:And now like I'm 55 and that kid's 10.
Marc:And it's like, how do I, you know, get that up to speed?
Marc:How does that integration come?
Marc:I'm sober a long time, so integrating demons and understanding them, I can live with them.
Marc:But the emotional thing, that's harder.
Guest:Well, do you feel like it's difficult to know when that child self feels safe because you never had, so you're like, I think we're good, are we good?
Guest:Or are you still feeling like the kid's like, I'm scared?
Marc:Well, it's not it's weird because it's starting to happen because enough other stuff's in place.
Marc:The OK.
Guest:Right.
Marc:That there is a support system.
Marc:We're all here.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Come on.
Marc:We're everybody here and loves you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And, you know, any and it comes out, you know, but it is it has something to do with.
Marc:It's a it's a man version, but it's sort of like, you know, how is that going to be received?
Marc:How like do I might am I strong enough to do not perceive any sort of question or look or reaction to it as being an attack?
Marc:And the truth is, is like, yeah, I'm 55, you know, and nobody knows what I'm talking about.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And they're usually thinking about themselves.
Marc:And generally, if that kid gets through, they're sort of like, wow, what was that?
Marc:Not like that's your.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Or when you let when you're like, OK, it's safe for the kid to come out and then you see a person zone out thinking about themselves.
Guest:And the kid's like, I just saw that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You don't like me.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This is why I don't come out here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So I just let it out in bits and pieces.
Marc:And it's weird.
Marc:And I do assume that there's my problem is my kid's precocious.
Marc:And that's annoying.
Marc:You know, any fucking 10 year old who thinks he knows what he's talking about.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:even your kid is precocious yeah oh my god right like i know he's annoying right so like i don't know what to do about that right yeah god and my little kids like maybe when you look in the mirror just look at parts of your face because i don't like the whole face i'm like what that's insane yeah when you're doing your makeup like just look at the eye maybe even like hold a napkin in front of the lower part of
Guest:You're like, you are fucked up.
Guest:That's crazy.
Guest:And then I play women who are like, guess what I love?
Guest:My whole face.
Guest:And the kid's like, ah, people think we're like that in real life.
Marc:That's so funny.
Marc:So when your kid's out, you know, it's basically saying like, I told her not to show herself her mouth.
Guest:Yes, yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:It's awful.
Guest:But then people see a curvy, severe looking blonde woman and they're like, oh, she's obsessed with herself.
Guest:It's our job to be like, you know, take her down.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Little do you know that I'm a seven year old like.
Marc:I can't stand that.
Marc:I mean, I don't like it.
Marc:It's like I feel bad about that, that, you know, that actresses, especially are women that like if they do anything, the attack of fucking, you know, sexually repressed, insane men is like so immediate.
Marc:It's so fucked up.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:It's just like I don't even have a comment board on our website anymore because anytime I'd have a female guest on, it was like, who the fuck are these?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Where do they come from?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't even get it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think they think that me putting a subject and predicate together and being the breadwinner in my family is going to cancel out their existence when actually the only thing that's going to be extinct is misogyny.
Guest:Like you are not going to be extinct.
Guest:The holder of that misogyny isn't going to be extinct.
Guest:And by the way, it's going to take so fucking long for that to be extinct.
Marc:And the world's ending.
Marc:So like, you know, it's going to be like this weird competition between climate change and misogyny.
Marc:The world dying.
Marc:and misogyny.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Which one's going to go first?
Guest:Yeah, yeah, that's true.
Marc:Does the world win?
Guest:Right.
Marc:Does Mother Earth win?
Marc:Ultimately she will.
Marc:We just might not be here.
Guest:Right, yeah.
Marc:There's no more misogyny because there's no more people.
Right.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:That's the thing that's going to cancel you out.
Marc:Yeah, right.
Guest:Not me self-actualizing.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, good times.
Marc:So what do I got to do to, you know, we had a fairly, you know, intense exchange that, you know, I don't regret, but maybe earlier that maybe I should reframe.
Marc:So if I'm going to like start to listen to Phish.
Guest:Oh.
Marc:Like if I'm gonna be like, I'm going in.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:Because I still haven't.
Guest:Right.
Marc:And I still get occasional pesterings of like, go talk to Trey.
Marc:I don't know anything he's done.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Marc:I understand he's great.
Marc:Okay, I'll let that be.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think you should talk to Trey, but okay.
Marc:But if I'm going to be like, all right, I'm going to do this.
Marc:Someone sent me a book, the fish everything book.
Marc:What do I go like, all right, I'm going to enter.
Marc:What's the portal?
Marc:Don't say a live show is not happening.
Guest:I don't think a live show is the portal.
Guest:I've brought friends to a live show.
Guest:But I've been to dead shows.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:It's not going to be with some other planet to me.
Marc:I've done my share of trippy jigs.
Guest:Trippy jigs.
Guest:Listener, he just did a trippy jig and I'll never be the same.
Guest:Never be the same.
Guest:Good.
Guest:There's a hammer here.
Guest:You know, I will say this as a precursor.
Guest:I'm 33.
Guest:My first concert was their last concert.
Guest:Air quotes.
Guest:They were like, we're breaking up.
Guest:And I was like, we've got to go.
Guest:And I parked my car on the side of the highway with my friends and we hiked 19 miles into their
Marc:19?
Guest:19 miles into their last concert.
Marc:Was it in Vermont?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:And our car got broken into and I got flecks of glass in my face.
Guest:But I was like, it was worth it, man.
Guest:It was the last one.
Guest:And then six months later, they were like, we're back together.
Guest:What about these scars?
Guest:What the fuck, guys?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So, I mean, my husband, who's nine years older than me, has been to like 300 shows.
Guest:So I am not a person who I fear the Phish fan community.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I fear speaking on behalf of them.
Guest:But I will only speak about here.
Guest:They are terrifying.
Guest:There's a message board called Fantasy Tour, I believe, that is they are they will rip apart anything that.
Marc:But not based on gender, just based on you don't know fish.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Or like fish sucks.
Guest:They rip apart fish themselves.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:But that's only on these message boards.
Guest:The actual experience of a fish show, you're surrounded by the most positive, wonderful people.
Guest:Anyway, for me...
Guest:It's people who, a band who is, and I think I said this last time, they have like a mathematical genius level understanding of their instrument and use that in the name of joy and exploration.
Guest:Okay, I get that.
Marc:What do I listen to?
Guest:I'll make you a mix.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I'll make you a mix.
Marc:All right.
Guest:And to me, it was a thing that in my formative years when I was having vestibule sex and not looking at my whole face in the mirror.
Marc:Vestibule sex in cars?
Guest:Yeah, vestibule sex in cars, in woods, at keg parties, being like, this is so bad.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's amazing how many things are in the vestibule.
Marc:There's woods, there's cars, and there are keg parties.
Guest:That's where it all happens.
Guest:That's on the other side of the vestibule after I've been like, I'm ready.
Guest:And the inner demon and inner child are bound and gagged in the basement.
Yeah.
Guest:But in that time, listening to that music was a way of kicking down the vestibule door and just having something for me that I could swim in the ocean of weird and be like, I'm not a porn poodle person.
Guest:I'm not a replaceable shame Barbie.
Guest:I am a noodle who's high on this LSD.
Marc:I'm a sweaty soil person.
Guest:Yes, exactly.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It's a way to eat soil for sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You know, now that I don't smoke weed from the second I wake up to the moment I go to sleep anymore, some of the 17-minute jams aren't as... Engaging?
Guest:Groundbreaking to me.
Marc:How long did you... That was your thing?
Marc:The weed?
Marc:Wake and bake?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Like, would find weed in my bra at the end of every day.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:A bit happy about it.
Guest:Happy about it.
Guest:Load it up.
Guest:Load up the pipe.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I knew I had it.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I had glittery mushroom stickers all on the inside of my Saab 9000.
Marc:You don't smoke any weed anymore?
Guest:I don't.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I mean, it's the same old lame story that everyone says.
Guest:I feel that it just now makes me anxious.
Marc:Doesn't it make the kid inside even more judgmental?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:It gives that kid and the demon are like having a podcast together being like.
Marc:Alone in the house.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'm not going out there.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Lucky because we can talk to each other.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Totally.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The kid's like, I'm not going out because I'm hideous.
Guest:And the demon's like, I could make you more hideous if you want me to.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:You're the only other person in here.
Marc:We're going to have to go get some food.
Guest:Okay.
Okay.
Marc:How's the husband?
Guest:The husband's good.
Marc:Cosmo.
Guest:Cosmo.
Guest:He's in nursing school.
Marc:Oh, that's good.
Marc:Right.
Marc:He's not off building huts and building bathrooms.
Marc:He's actually going to get his nurse degree.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So he's been sadly dissecting cats, which I don't think he would really like.
Guest:Yeah.
Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, there's a lot of cats around.
Marc:I'm glad they're being used for good, the ones that don't make it.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Is this the end of his first year or in the middle?
Guest:He's in an accelerated program, so he's like right at the beginning of a two-year thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then he comes out a nurse.
Guest:And then he comes out a nurse.
Marc:And what's he want to do, the hospital?
Yeah.
Guest:Or trauma nursing.
Guest:Yeah, he wants to stick his fingers in wounds and stuff.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But in an ideal world, we'll have a couple kids, he'll be dad, and then go to Doctors Without Borders, and I'll go cry on camera for health insurance.
Marc:Yeah, and the kids will be becoming actors.
Guest:No.
Guest:I'm hoping that by the time I'm ready to be pregnant, I can program in love's math and business.
Marc:It's probably going to happen.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:So what are you doing?
Marc:Are you going to eat?
Guest:Yeah, I was thinking about eating.
Marc:Oh, I think we've covered a lot.
Guest:Great.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:Yeah, yes.
Guest:What are you gonna do today?
Marc:Probably eat something, eat some fish.
Guest:Right.
Marc:Do you have to, are you on, oh, you gotta go get porn poodled.
Guest:I gotta get porn poodled in order to then talk to Natasha, who I feel like is straight to past the vestibule, which I love.
Marc:She paid her dues.
Guest:Hell yeah.
Marc:To get past the vestibule.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Her vestibule was a fucking disaster.
Marc:The worst vestibule in the world.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Dirty, horrible vestibule she was in.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I'm so happy for her.
Marc:Happy for you.
Marc:Are you excited about it?
Marc:What do you feel about the Emmys?
Guest:I feel excited about it and I feel a little nervous about it.
Guest:But also, like, I just don't.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I can't tell, like, what's real and what's not.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I know I'm not allowed to say that.
Marc:No, but I'll tell you, like, what is real is that it's interesting to me because of.
Marc:You know, you've been doing what you're doing for a long time, granted, but not that I can see it, but it doesn't seem like you play the game that hard, and it seems like the respect you're getting is earnest.
Guest:Thanks, Mark.
Marc:And you deserve it.
Guest:Thank you, Mark.
Guest:Well, I also feel like I just want to say, I again want to say I love you.
Guest:I love you too.
Guest:I see exactly who your scroll self is.
Marc:And it's beautiful.
Marc:Thank you.
Marc:Yours too.
Guest:Now you gotta get out of my house.
Guest:Okay, great.
Guest:Bye.
Bye.
Marc:Wasn't that fun?
Marc:Isn't she amazing?
Marc:Betty Gilpin of GLOW and many other things that we talked about, but she is with me and we do some good work together on Season 3 of GLOW.
Marc:GLOW.
Marc:GLOW.
Marc:Go to WTFPod.com slash tour for all of my tour dates in September and October.
Marc:You can go to SwordOfTrust.com to see where it's playing near you and watch it on demand.
Marc:All right.
Marc:Me and Delray are going to go...
Marc:Blow some mines in Houston now.
Marc:Boomer lives!
Boomer lives!
Boomer lives!