Episode 1030 - Stephen Colbert
Guest:Alright, let's do this.
Guest:How are you, what the fuckers?
Guest:What the fuck buddies?
Guest:What the fuck nicks?
Guest:What the fucksters?
Guest:What the fucking ucks?
Marc:Yeah, the what the fucking ucks.
Marc:Why not?
Marc:I'm in Canada still, so that seems appropriate.
Marc:How's it going?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast broadcasting from a...
Marc:Hotel room, but it's nice.
Marc:It's not a bad hotel room.
Marc:It's more of a resident-style hotel room.
Marc:I think it's actually an apartment.
Marc:You could definitely live here.
Marc:You could live anywhere, really.
Marc:And I'm in Canada, so there's reflection going on.
Marc:I do want to say that I want to thank, certainly, the journalists of the world and also the entertainers of the world for being relatively one of the only, sadly, truly
Marc:functional checks on this presidency.
Marc:So that being said, I have Stephen Colbert on the show today.
Marc:Stephen and I go back a bit.
Marc:We don't know each other that well.
Marc:I've done his show several times, but we sort of started in the same world.
Marc:And, you know, he has risen to the occasion for for personal reasons, for for reasons of whatever it is.
Marc:You know, Stephen is one of the guys who is publicly pushing back through humor, but also through anger and heart and concern and fear.
Marc:on a nightly basis against this sort of wave of authoritarian thinking and single-party minority rule supporters, anti-Americans who consider themselves to be making America great against even as sort of a...
Marc:He's kind of a hero in the fight in a way because he's able to present information and anger in a humorous way, providing some comfort to the sort of ongoing internal and cultural current of fear and apprehension.
Marc:And not knowing what's going to happen.
Marc:And keeps people from tipping off the edge.
Marc:Because a lot of people are falling off the edge.
Marc:Mentally and in a lot of other ways.
Marc:Because this shit is hard.
Marc:And it's scary.
Marc:And that's where we're at.
Marc:And Steven is one of the guys that makes it funny.
Marc:So I was happy to talk to him.
Marc:We had a tight talk.
Marc:Because I had to go over to the theater, the Ed Sullivan Theater, and pull him away from the daily grind of hosting a daily show.
Marc:And he gave me about an hour.
Marc:And he's a talker.
Marc:And I think we did all right.
Marc:So that's happening.
Marc:You can look forward to that in a few minutes.
Marc:I'm getting a lot of emails from people about many things, you know, hundreds of emails about the Eve Ensor episode from, you know, men and women, almost equal, oddly, and just from people who are,
Marc:Victims, parents of victims, victims by proximity, you know, people who have been destroyed from abuse and domestic and sexual violence and just situations.
Marc:It's just...
Marc:Overwhelming, really.
Marc:And I've been getting a lot of emails relative to anti-Semitism.
Marc:I've been getting emails to add to the conversation around addiction and recovery, just emails of fear in terms of managing it.
Marc:I had no idea.
Marc:that my conversations would lead to, lead to some sort of, to help.
Marc:You know, I mean, I really got into this trip to try to get something going and I guess to engage myself and, you know, whatever my process has been over time has had an effect on people and it's humbling and I'm glad to help out.
Marc:So I hope you're doing okay.
Marc:I hope your life is going well and you got that thing done or you fixed that thing or you got that thing looked at or you got your kid into the right place and whatever.
Marc:I just hope.
Marc:There's emails here about the creeping authoritarianism that seems to be honestly happening in America despite...
Marc:uh, the presses or, you know, all of our best efforts, uh, to, uh, to sort of feel like there, there's something we can do to engage.
Marc:And obviously there is, but, uh, but it's happening and it's good as I've kind of been trying to grow myself to, to kind of really know who you are and who's in charge of your brain and how do you handle what you think and how, and how do you facilitate some sort of change in yourself and in the world?
Yeah.
Marc:So, the emails.
Marc:Obviously, I get hundreds of these, and there's a selection process here that's kind of random, but I'm trying to focus.
Marc:Subject line, Fantasyland.
Marc:I've been talking about that book.
Marc:Mark, I grew up in the Pentecostal charismatic movements described in Fantasyland, specifically the offshoots of John Wimber's Vineyard.
Marc:It was partly my...
Marc:upbringing in that environment that led me to some really crazy cult-like groups.
Marc:After I got out of my last group about five years ago and started to get healthy, I began listening to WTF, the stories of your guests with all their ups and downs, false starts, and long droughts of non-work, usually ending in some type of success story, usually.
Marc:helped keep me grounded as I began the process of rebuilding different parts of my life.
Marc:Your story, too, of finding success later in life, especially after living in your own drug-fueled fantasy land, is continually encouraging.
Marc:And just so you know, I'm doing well now.
Marc:I love your little allusions to fantasy land.
Marc:in your recent episodes, like bringing up Celebration, the Disney Town, and the Jamie Dembo interview.
Marc:The book helped give me a context to my upbringing and the groups I was involved in that was incredibly insightful and healing.
Marc:Listening to you and Kurt hash it out over a couple hours would be a real treat.
Marc:You got to bring them on.
Marc:I'll try, Paul.
Marc:I'll try.
Marc:But I like this idea that you bring up, Paul.
Marc:I like the idea of helped give me a context to my upbringing and the groups I was involved with.
Marc:See, I don't think I fully realize all the time that sometimes just a little bit of personal experience shared or a little bit of information can completely change the way you see or contextualize something in both positive and negative ways, depending on your emotional disposition at that moment or who you are.
Marc:But
Marc:But there is a power to conversation.
Marc:There is a power to sort of experience.
Marc:And there is a power to sort of educating yourself around these things to give context.
Marc:Because there's one thing that's lacking in the goddamn culture right now in the world is context.
Marc:It's just an onslaught of fucking mostly garbage being dumped into our heads on a daily fucking basis that either we attach to our feelings or we just get overwhelmed and panicky.
Marc:But getting personal context for who the fuck you are and really owning that,
Marc:So if the shit really goes down, at least you'll have that.
Marc:At least you'll know who you are.
Marc:Anyways, a little bit dramatic, but I appreciated the ideas in that email.
Marc:And then there was this one because, you know, anti-Semitism, like again, it's part of fanatic religiosity, anti-Semitism, complete utter racism, you know, flat out authoritarian tactics of corralling and torturing and exiling and who knows what's next.
Marc:Minority people
Marc:marginalizing of people already marginalized is a real thing so when i talk about being a jew or i talk about uh you know anti-semitism and even one email comes to me you know i'm going to react but this was sort of this is why it's important you know outside of you know the general reasons i get a
Marc:Email Jamie Denbo and the overwhelming Judaism.
Marc:Hey, Mark, I've been listening to WTF since I saw the second season of Marin on Netflix, however many beers ago that was.
Marc:I just listened to the Jamie Denbo interview, and I'd like to address that other listener who was in denial about being anti-Semitic.
Marc:Fuck that guy.
Marc:Keep on talking about all the Jewy stuff.
Marc:I'm a rare Vermont Jew currently living in a no Jew town in North Idaho.
Marc:Some days it feels like your angst, self-loathing, and chats with other Jews are the only ways I can relate to society.
Marc:The idea of performing activities in life without worrying about how it's going to affect my entry to heaven
Marc:is completely foreign to all my neighbors.
Marc:Your podcast reminds me of all the worst parts of growing up Jewish and sometimes even makes me reminisce about the good parts, although I'm pretty sure that being Jewish means that you're supposed to love hating all of it.
Marc:That was him in parentheses.
Marc:Your talk with Jamie reminded me
Marc:of all the great friendships I made and promptly abandoned in Jewish camps and Hebrew school reminded me of all the horrible videos that I was subjected to about the Holocaust and that there isn't a time in life where I haven't been worried about every last thing that could maim or kill me both in thanks to my mother's extreme worries about me and my siblings you also remind me that we are the people who have had to figure it out on our own away from the rest of society and this mentality is something I carry with me daily
Marc:If we could wander through the desert for 40 years, survive the Holocaust, survive the diaspora, and survive every other challenge the rest of the world throws at our people, I can muster the strength to open the sticky jar of jelly in my refrigerator to spread our leftover matzah after Pesach.
Marc:Anyways, I know that you're going to do your thing regardless of what I say, but don't stop talking about Jewish life.
Marc:Anyone who doesn't want to hear it probably already knows where the fast-forward button is on their device.
Marc:Wish you good mental health.
Marc:Best of luck to the cats.
Marc:Brendan.
Marc:thanks man i you know and i do that i think i do what you're saying instinctively but there was a couple and then then i got this this other one but and this is another thing that we don't realize about the jamie dembo interview growing pain subject line hey mark just a little note on growing up with the awareness for second world war atrocities german here growing up in the 80s in germany we were confronted with the facts
Marc:quite early as well.
Marc:I think around eight or nine years old.
Marc:We read the first book about it in school.
Marc:And from there, it's basically a nonstop guilt trip until graduating high school.
Marc:And for the better, don't get me wrong, never forget so it doesn't happen again is burned into me.
Marc:And I think that's a good thing.
Marc:I immediately related to Jamie mentioning how early you guys had to deal.
Marc:And it reminded me of my own very specific
Marc:german guilt education anyway love your work keep your head up kind regards and hello from amsterdam lucy see i didn't know that like i i didn't know like i mean obviously i knew that you know germans had to reckon with it but i didn't know it was like you know kind of a promoted and persistent kind of uh driving awareness into the brain of new generations
Marc:And the reason this stuff is important because is that progressive sense or that human sense of right and wrong in relation to history is starting to buckle, starting to buckle.
Marc:And this one, I think, is nice because it's Canadian and it's kind of funny.
Marc:And then we'll get to Stephen here in a minute.
Marc:The subject line on this is just Montreal Jews.
Marc:Hey, Mark, in the Jamie Dembo episode, which is great, of course, I was stunned.
Marc:That was him in parentheses.
Marc:I was stunned to hear you refer to Howie Mandel as a Montreal Jew.
Marc:He's a Toronto Jew.
Marc:Leonard Cohen.
Marc:Now that's a Montreal Jew.
Marc:Love the show.
Marc:Keep up the great work.
Marc:Best, Trevor.
Marc:OK, I will not make that mistake again, Trevor.
Marc:Leonard Cohen, Montreal Jew.
Marc:Howie Mandel, Toronto Jew.
Marc:Stephen Colbert.
Marc:I talked to Stephen, as I said, in the tucked away place in the Ed Sullivan Theater that used to be a small theater that Letterman used to use to screen things.
Marc:And we had a very, you know, engaged and kind of intense and fast talk.
Marc:You know, Stephen will go, man.
Marc:Stephen will go.
Marc:So I want you to listen to this.
Marc:Enjoy it.
Marc:Obviously, The Late Show with Stephen Colbert airs weeknights on CBS and on CBS All Access.
Marc:And this is me talking to Stephen Colbert.
Stephen Colbert
Guest:This was Dave's screening room.
Marc:Yeah, they, yeah.
Marc:You got the whole history of it?
Marc:Not quite.
Marc:What do you think went on in here?
Guest:This was screening.
Guest:There used to be like a $100,000 projector behind that.
Guest:And this was, these risers had like, there were like comfy seats like this here and there.
Guest:And that's a screen right over there.
Guest:And so it would be actually projected.
Guest:I think both film and digital.
Marc:So that was a nice thing.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:No, it was really a nice thing.
Guest:It was a great way to watch a movie.
Marc:Do you know, like as you've been here as long as you have, have you become obsessed with the history of the place?
Guest:Or is it just where you- It was really before the show started, man.
Guest:Because now then once you're there, as much as it's great to be in the Ed Sullivan Theater, at a certain point, it's just the place you're working.
Guest:I know, right?
Guest:Because you don't see it from the outside.
Guest:I don't see the marquee.
Guest:I never come in that side of the building.
Guest:I don't get any sense of the space at all.
Marc:Isn't that sad?
Guest:Well, I suppose the one thing that reminds me, thank you.
Guest:The one thing that reminds me is that damn dome in that theater.
Guest:It's so beautiful.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Like the actual space itself is so lovely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But of course, then when you end up doing the show, when you actually walk out on stage to do the show, you want to stay aware of the audience and the vibe and everything, but it's you and the camera.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I've never gotten the hang of that.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:Well, I mean, when I go out on stage, it's very hard for me to acknowledge that I'm just really performing for the camera.
Marc:Like if I'm performing stand-up and there's a camera, generally I'm looking at the audience.
Marc:Every time I've done panel on your show or on Conan's show, I will always go to the audience.
Marc:Like I'll look at them and I'll do one of these and then I'm not even looking at the camera and I'm playing for the audience.
Guest:well yeah it's a trick you had to learn it well it's a fine line it's a fine line you gotta you gotta you gotta you're getting all your vibe from the audience yeah you know and so you can't you always have to be aware of them because you guys are in this sort of little partnership for this next hour um but yeah it's all going down the pipe yeah so you gotta see where the what do you have yet we're like are we doing is this the show by the way probably so
Guest:i like it i like we really that's really the thin end of the wedge really literally as i'm sitting in the like roll roll he'll never even know i'll get him to say shit he'll regret for years how did you even but i'm doing it on your equipment oh of course we're rolling the guys left they left i guess we are rolling that's good yeah
Marc:I was wondering when I was walking over here waiting outside with my bag.
Marc:Usually I have my recorder in my bag, but they offered to set this up for me.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Do you ever get to that point?
Marc:And I didn't feel this way about you.
Marc:Were you like, oh, Christ, how much longer do we do we work?
Marc:Like, work in general or work with each other?
Marc:No, just in general.
Marc:Just kind of like, here we go.
Guest:Oh, when I was, I was actually, I was just having this conversation with Mindy Kaling, actually.
Marc:Really?
Guest:I interviewed her on Saturday for the Montclair Film Festival.
Guest:And she asked me, like, how much longer are you going to do this?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I'll tell you the story I told her, which is that I... Great, I love stories that you've repeated.
Guest:No, but I never finished it with her.
Marc:Oh, good.
Guest:Is that when I was thinking about ending the Colbert Report, which was about seven years in.
Guest:I did it for nine and a half years, but seven years in.
Guest:I've gotten to know Dick Cavett over the years.
Guest:Have you ever talked to Dick at all?
Marc:I haven't interviewed him, but I've talked to him before.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Great.
Guest:All the best stories you want to hear.
Marc:And his brain is like a bingo cage.
Marc:You just get...
Marc:You mention a name and he'll pull out a number.
Marc:Exactly.
Guest:You're spinning a old Rolodex and just boom.
Marc:Throw a name out.
Guest:Drop your finger anywhere he wants.
Guest:And he'll tell you about like, you know, Brando told him why to always order a tequila sunrise.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And it's actually Campari and orange juice is the Brando.
Marc:Is that the thing?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:My mom used to drink Campari and soda.
Marc:It was a hip drink for a while.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:In the 70s, Campari.
Guest:so i asked him we went out to we have drinks every so often and we're is it a club for at the yale club okay yeah because he's a yalee you're a yalee no he's a yalee my dad taught there my brother went there right and my daughter went there and i'm jealous of all of them because i always but they let you in your grandfathered in only if i'm in with someone else really i don't know i don't know how it works your kid can't put
Marc:Were you on the list?
Guest:I don't think so.
Guest:I have never been in without a Yalie, so I don't know if they take a cheek scraping and see whether it comes up Ivy.
Guest:But I said, hey, how long did you do your show?
Guest:The first time.
Guest:And he said, okay.
Guest:And he knew immediately what I was asking.
Guest:When can I stop?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And he said, because he did his show so many times.
Guest:He had so many different iterations on a different network.
Guest:And he said to me that,
Guest:He goes, how long do you think Jack Parr was on the air?
Guest:And I'll ask you, how long do you think Jack Parr was on the air?
Marc:12 years.
Marc:Four years.
Marc:But he's mythologized.
Guest:Yes, Jack Parr was on for four years.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:On The Tonight Show.
Guest:He came back with the Jack Parr show later because, and Cavett wrote for Jack.
Guest:I call him Jack.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he said that...
Guest:Parr regretted it.
Guest:He regretted having left after four years, that there was a lot more chicken on that.
Guest:I don't know if it was the grind or the demands of the network or whatever, but after four years he left, and then he regretted it and came back with Jack Parr Show, which was a good show, but just was never the same.
Marc:I don't think people knew then that you could stay on the air for 40 years.
Marc:I mean, television was still kind of newish.
Guest:No, I mean, if you watch the American Masters on Johnny Carson, evidently the story that they tell on American Masters that Johnny said, I can't take over for Jack Parr.
Guest:Who can take over for Jack Parr?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, he's been there for four years.
Guest:Four years.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:There's no way to take over for Jack Parr.
Guest:He's a giant.
Guest:No one will ever.
Guest:And his wife, one of the Joan or Joanns, said, like, don't give the job to somebody else.
Guest:Let me talk to him.
Guest:Like, she put on a dress and went to the head of the network and said, I'll make him take the job.
Marc:And he took it.
Guest:So how much longer?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I enjoy it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I enjoy it.
Guest:And that's how long you're supposed to do it, right?
Guest:Technically, you're supposed to do it until you don't enjoy it anymore.
Marc:Only a few more years after you don't enjoy it, right?
Marc:I guess, but I'm not a guy that really understands when he's enjoying something.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I like having the gig, and I like being engaged and doing a thing.
Marc:I like talking to people, and I like getting on stage.
Marc:But when I really think about it, am I like, I can't wait to get out there?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:I really don't know how often that happens.
Marc:I kind of want to get out there.
Guest:I mean, I kind of want to get out there.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:I mean, we worked on these jokes.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:I want to see if these work.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We spent the day working on this thing.
Marc:And for me- And that guy's coming.
Marc:So it'd be nice to talk to that guy.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I want to warm up the audience for my guest.
Guest:Do you?
Guest:No.
Guest:No?
Guest:I want the audience warmed up for me.
Guest:Then the guest's going to have what's left.
Guest:I want to go out there to be in front of the audience.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to be really to be with them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I don't because I we're constantly being told that we're crazy for thinking something's crazy these days.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like there's there's a group of Americans who think this is crazy and wonder whether they're crazy for thinking it's crazy.
Guest:And I think that's who my audience is.
Guest:is that they like the community of knowing that I'm coming out there and saying, you're not crazy.
Guest:This is crazy.
Guest:And I want that.
Guest:I want that as the host.
Marc:But that became the mission after a certain point.
Guest:Oh, immediately it was the mission.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It took me a while to express it and to know it to myself that that's what it was.
Guest:But it was immediately the visceral emotional feeling I had to be with the audience the closer and closer we got to the election.
Marc:Yeah, but at the beginning, like, I guess my question to start with is that, like, I mean, I don't know, when you first got the gig, and I don't remember when I exactly did your show, and we have a bit of history that we should talk about, but I don't know that, yeah, a little bit.
Marc:We have a history?
Marc:Brief.
Marc:We actually talked about it on your show a little bit.
Marc:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:No, we've,
Marc:We've worked in the same building next to each other in the office.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But it's a weird job.
Marc:It's a very specific job that you ended up with.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And it was something I think you were prepared for on a certain level.
Marc:Maybe.
Marc:But I don't know that you ever saw yourself doing that.
Marc:Never.
Guest:This was not an ambition of mine.
Guest:What was the regardless of what anybody thinks?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like I was laying in wait for one of the network guys.
Guest:I don't think I never felt like you were that people wrote stuff like that.
Guest:But like, you know, David Gobert cleverly arranged his Comedy Central contract.
Guest:So it would be up when Dave was up.
Guest:There was stuff like that.
Guest:Speculators.
Marc:When you look at the news every day, it's very important that you realize just how much is speculation by people that kind of know things.
Marc:The actual news is the news.
Marc:And then there's thousands of people going like, what if?
Marc:Maybe this happened.
Guest:I think this happened.
Guest:One of my producers, Barry Julian, calls it the uninformed influencing each other in real time.
Guest:That's what most news is.
Marc:But but I guess the but what did you see?
Marc:What was the goal?
Guest:Because it might be the goals.
Guest:I mean, I really should have more goals, probably.
Guest:But I didn't have I didn't really have necessarily a goal.
Guest:The big the biggest sort of change for me that there have been only a couple of big career changes for me was my original goal was to be Hamlet.
Guest:You know, not even like act Hamlet, to be Hamlet.
Marc:To actually be Hamlet.
Guest:Well, I mean, I don't know.
Guest:As a young actor, I did not have the experience to know that you could differentiate yourself between like your narrative heroes and yourself.
Marc:You wanted to just become that.
Guest:I sure I just wanted to like be actively sad at people because I was a sad, sad young man.
Guest:And then I met people in comedy.
Guest:And I started doing it.
Guest:And I went, oh, A, you know when it's working because the audience makes that noise.
Guest:That's always fun.
Guest:And comedy sort of saved my life as a young man, like the comedians that I admired.
Guest:And sort of they got me through childhood tragedy and such.
Guest:And then I realized I just loved improvisation.
Guest:And so I remember actively going, okay, I'm not going to do straight theater.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because whenever...
Guest:I get paid to do comedy.
Guest:Like, straight theater, I tend to be doing it for free.
Marc:So this was an evolution, so the improv thing.
Marc:But let's, I mean, if we go back then, like, I know you're Catholic.
Marc:I know you have a huge family.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:So when you go back, when you talk about, like, where'd you grow up?
Guest:Well, I was born in Washington, D.C., but I left there when I was four.
Guest:And I spent the rest of my childhood in South Carolina.
Guest:First on James Island, South Carolina, and then in Charleston, South Carolina.
Marc:With a tremendous amount of children.
Marc:There was a lot of kids.
Guest:11 kids.
Guest:Jimmy, Eddie, Mary, Billy, Margaret, Tomajay, Lulu, Paul, Peter, and Stephen.
Marc:So you know all of them.
Guest:I know most of them pretty well.
Marc:Big family.
Marc:But to me, that's crazy.
Marc:I can't even imagine it.
Guest:Do you have brothers and sisters?
Marc:I have one.
Marc:Which one?
Marc:And it's enough.
Marc:I have a brother.
Marc:I have a younger brother.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So you're the responsible one.
Marc:Kind of.
Marc:I mean, not really.
Marc:I mean, it went back and forth, but it turns out I ended up there somehow.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:But growing up, when you say... There's some questions I want to ask about faith and about family.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:But when you say that comedy saved you from tragedy, it was because you lost family, right?
Marc:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:My father and two of my brothers died in a plane crash, Eastern Airlines Flight 212 on September 11th, 1974.
Guest:And so it didn't save me from tragedy, but it gave me- It gave me surcease from sadness, you know, at the end of the day.
Guest:And I would listen to Bill Cosby, Wonderfulness.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Bill Cosby, Very Funny Fellow, Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Which is, that's the Noah one.
Guest:And then Wonderfulness has got go-karts on it.
Marc:Back when we could listen to Bill Cosby.
Guest:Right, right, right.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that and then after that.
Marc:On records.
Marc:On records.
Guest:Who had the records?
Guest:Did your parents have the records?
Guest:No, one of my brothers.
Guest:How old's your oldest brother?
Guest:Oh, he's almost, he's 19 years older than I am.
Guest:So he's in his 70s now.
Marc:So when something like that happens in a family of that size, I imagine that there's a lot of built-in support automatically.
Guest:Well, yes, we love each other very much, but we're kind of scattered.
Marc:No, but I mean like when that happened, when the tragedy happened, you were all kind of around, weren't you?
Marc:We were all together.
Guest:You know, we were all together.
Guest:I mean, it was a strange transition time in our family.
Guest:And this is a slightly longer, there's no short answer to your question.
Marc:That's okay.
Guest:Because, you know.
Guest:You don't have a show to do, do you?
Guest:No, I don't.
Guest:September 10th.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, you might say, like I said, September 10th, 1974.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:it was me and mom and dad and Peter and Paul and Jay and Lulu and Tommy and Bill.
Guest:So like nine people in the house.
Guest:But Lulu, Jay and Tommy go off to college in September.
Guest:Bill goes off, I think Bill will go off to law school.
Guest:He moved out for sure.
Guest:Peter Paul and dad die, and suddenly it's just me and mom in the house.
Guest:It's like people were around, and people came back because of how this terrible tragedy affected an entire family.
Guest:But really, for the next X number of years, it went from this enormous, busy...
Guest:joyously kind of chaotic, it's okay if things aren't perfect kind of family to me and mom.
Guest:And it became very quiet and the shades were all down and mom was always wearing black and it was a totally different daily communicancy, like going to mass every day, looking for faith to get you through this,
Guest:a bewildering level of tragedy and loss, completely disorienting in many ways and feels unreal and hyper real at the same time.
Guest:And so was there a lot of support?
Guest:Yes, we were all there for each other, but I being the youngest and the middle two, the ones between me and the next ones up dying,
Guest:And the other ones were old enough that they were, they had their lives.
Guest:They had college or they were married and children.
Guest:So it was a dramatic, that fall was a dramatic change in what my life was like on our, of course our entire family's life was like, but in terms of me, how many family were around, it became just me and mom.
Marc:And when you look back on it in terms of, I don't know how much introspection you do outside of, you know, the face.
Guest:I try not to look in the mirror.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You know, I try to, I try to shave against just a cork board.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:See what happens.
Marc:Let someone tell me if I miss something.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:No, but do you see that moment in terms of how it defined the rest of your life?
Marc:Sure.
Guest:That was my secret name was September 11th.
Guest:That was the secret name I wouldn't tell anybody.
Guest:I even said that.
Guest:I remember coming to the realization that my secret name was September 11th.
Marc:What does that mean, secret name?
Guest:Well, there's the name that you tell everyone else, and then there's the name by which you can be conjured if you're a demon.
Marc:Do you know what I mean?
Guest:That is my secret name.
Guest:Don't tell me your secret name or else they have control over you.
Marc:And then it became a global tragedy.
Guest:Well, that was very strange after 9-11, as opposed to September 11th in my mind.
Guest:When 9-11 happened,
Guest:And suddenly that became a totemic day of tragedy for people all over the world, not even just the United States, but of course very specifically.
Guest:And I watched it live from the helix.
Guest:9-11 yeah watching the towers yeah and and when I come when I I remember seeing billboards after that that would say you know September 11th never forget yeah which is totally understandable and I understand that but I remember thinking personally going really never yeah because that means something different to me it does right really never yeah never it's not like I really want to forget but do I have to carry that with me all the time yeah because you know when you get struck with great tragedy
Guest:The absolute natural life-affirming and life-saving inclination is to scab over that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:With whatever.
Marc:And time usually does it.
Marc:Time does it.
Marc:If you don't keep reopening it.
Guest:And so does comedy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Some of it's comedy.
Guest:I fled him down the nights and down the days.
Guest:I fled him down the labyrinthine ways of my own mind.
Guest:I hid from him under running laughter, which is the hound of heaven.
Guest:You know that poem?
Guest:By who?
By who?
Guest:Gerard Manley Hopkins.
Guest:I'm not sure who it is, but it's The Hound of Heaven.
Guest:It's about God pursuing you with the truth and with love and how you flee, flee, flee, flee, flee, flee, because you don't want to know that you are loved.
Guest:You don't want to know.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:I think it's hard to be fully known.
Guest:As St.
Guest:Paul says, then I will know as fully as I am known because God knows you fully.
Guest:And that's a hard thing to surrender to is to be fully known.
Marc:It's terrifying to me.
Guest:Because then you have to, if you know that someone else knows you fully, say for those of you who are listening, if there is a God, and I know that for many people that makes no sense, but if there is a God and he fully knows you, that's an interesting...
Guest:That's an interesting accusation that someone else fully knows you.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because the question is, do I fully know me?
Guest:Shouldn't I?
Guest:And then that's an invitation to self-examination.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But that's sort of the core of faith in a way, that if you allow yourself to be fully known by God, then the rest is sort of, you know, I can only do my best.
Right.
Guest:I suppose so.
Guest:It's a it's humility.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Active humility.
Marc:Well, that's a good question in terms of when I coming back around and then we can fill in the gaps is that I felt that, you know, when you do when you were doing the Colbert rapport and then, you know, you take this job, part of this job.
Marc:That you have now on some level is allowing a weird sliver of yourself to be fully known in a way that is accessible and authentic.
Marc:Maybe not all of you, but, you know, that that part has got to resonate.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:So that must have, I thought, been an amazing challenge.
Guest:A huge one.
Guest:A huge one.
Guest:Like, one that I couldn't possibly prepare for.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Because I, somebody, I was at an event the other night and someone said, oh, do you act?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, oh, until four years ago, that's all I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, I'm 54 years old and from age 22, whenever I, you know, got out of theater school, till 50...
Guest:I was an actor.
Guest:And the Colbert Report was a 10-year sketch.
Guest:It was a 10-year scene.
Guest:It had a beginning, a middle, and an end.
Guest:I had a character I want.
Guest:I either achieved or I didn't.
Guest:My scene partner was the audience.
Guest:I never thought of doing it alone.
Guest:I was doing a scene with someone.
Guest:Trying to convince them and also have them love me.
Guest:What does anybody want?
Guest:What does any character want in any play or anything?
Guest:Love me.
Guest:And so that was the whole objective.
Guest:Please love me.
Guest:And so it's strange for me now to be myself.
Guest:I even said to James Babydoll Dixon, the real king of late night, who represents me and John and Kimmel.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And I said, because he said, it's you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because it was like, who's going to be?
Guest:And they said, they want to talk to you about it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, James, A, I said...
Guest:The last thing I thought I would do next is something harder.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When does this get easier?
Guest:And he goes, no, no, it's going to be easier.
Guest:I said, I don't believe you.
Guest:And I was right, by the way.
Guest:It's much harder.
Guest:It's much harder.
Guest:It's much harder.
Guest:But the other thing I said was like, James, this will be the first time I haven't been an actor.
Guest:Like, you don't understand.
Guest:Like, that's not me on the Colbert rapport.
Guest:That's me acting, using the character as a confession.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Right.
Guest:In a way of some of my darkest impulses as a human being.
Guest:But I don't even think even necessarily my dark impulses, just human dark impulses.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:You know, I want to be the most important one.
Guest:I want the only person like I want every all the praise.
Guest:Just a malignant ego.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:And to have that reinforced and have the audience cheer on me embodying their appetites.
Guest:That's why they were like, I'd have a guest on that they agreed with, but they would cheer me when I would knock the person's ideas down through this embodiment of appetites.
Marc:And now you now you had to be put in a position to figure out who you are, what your timing is.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:You know, am I funny in that way as me, Stephen?
Marc:Right.
Guest:And what do I care about?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you got to talk about things every night and you can't really fake it.
Guest:You have to kind of care.
Marc:When did the battle stop being sadness?
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:In yourself.
Marc:I mean, like, you know, when you come out of what you came out of and you're, you know, you're using, you know, listening to comedy, you're using faith to sort of like, I guess.
Guest:Oh, it's always, I mean, what do you mean?
Guest:When did it stop being sadness?
Guest:Okay.
Guest:The battle's always sadness.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:The battle's always sadness, you know?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it frightens me the awful truth of how sweet life can be.
Marc:Me too.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And the preciousness and the fleetingness of life.
Guest:Having lost those people in my life when I was young makes everything seem fleeting to me.
Guest:Oh, so that stays with you.
Guest:Oh, absolutely.
Guest:There's a poem by a guy.
Guest:I believe he was...
Guest:He's got an Italian name, but I think he's Swiss.
Guest:And his name was Romano Gardini.
Guest:And Romano Gardini is a Catholic writer and philosopher and maybe a clergyman.
Guest:I can't remember.
Guest:And he's got this great prayer about the fullness of eternity and about how in the dawn we perceive the dusk.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We know it's coming.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I constantly do the math of like how long will this beautiful moment last?
Guest:Right.
Guest:There's always that...
Guest:it's it's suffused through yeah all of my joy yeah is how long will this last but you're capable of experiencing joy without a doubt oh that's constantly oh that's so all the time but it's not alone it's not like unalloyed yeah it's not unalloyed it's it's i've definitely got some tin in my iron but it makes steel right you know yeah that's nice no but i joy all the time joy with my family joy with my friends that i do the show with yeah for the beauty of the earth you know yeah you know
Guest:But for the little green leaf and the wind on the water, like the joy of creation, how strange it is to be anything at all, I get that feeling all the time.
Marc:That's great.
Marc:So when you were younger then and this thing happens and you start going to church, does that when- Start?
Guest:No, no, I was already, like our family was already very devout.
Guest:Right, but was- But it ramped up, definitely.
Marc:Right, because it was, is that when it kind of infused in you the deeper understanding?
Guest:Oh, no.
Guest:Because it seems like you're fairly- The deeper understanding didn't come until I was-
Guest:older you know i had some sort of i had what what for me passed for fairly profound revelations when i was when i was old when i was older it was in my 20s oh yeah about yeah because i became an atheist for many years i i left i left quite quite sadly about it i didn't want to not have a god yeah um i mean if for no other reason that i really wanted to see my father my brothers again you know which is the most
Guest:most understandable but in some ways kind of most selfish reason to have a god yeah you know but uh but that was real that was a promise that was given to me that i will see them again right and the fact that i was sure that there was no god for many years for as many yeah uh sent me into a terrible spiral of depression i lost 50 pounds i you lost 50 pounds i lost 50 pounds like in six months did you need to lose 50 pounds
Guest:No, I was exactly, I mean, I weigh exactly, when I went to college, I weigh exactly what I weigh right now.
Guest:And you lost 50 in college?
Guest:50 pounds less than I do now my freshman year, almost by Christmas.
Guest:I mean, I lost, I wouldn't eat.
Marc:I was so sad.
Guest:So you went into a tailspin.
Guest:Went into a complete tailspin, exactly.
Guest:Because God left.
Guest:And unaddressed grief that when he left, there was an unaddressed grief.
Marc:And then also you're like in a new place, new people.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:You're away for the... I think my mother did a fantastic job of being not bitter and helping me try to see beauty in the world after the dad and the boys died.
Guest:But without a doubt, there was...
Guest:a subterranean hum all the time of me wanting to be okay for her.
Guest:And I didn't have to do that.
Guest:And I found out I completely was not okay.
Guest:Eight years later, I was completely not okay.
Marc:So how did it start, the acting thing?
Marc:How did it start kind of manifesting you?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, part of it was sort of...
Guest:inspired by my mom.
Guest:She'd wanted to be an actress.
Guest:And she had actually studied at the New School, the New School for Social Research.
Guest:They called it the New School here in the late 30s and early 40s.
Guest:And she was going to Carnegie School
Guest:Carnegie Mellon to the Carnegie Institute to study theater and got terribly sick actually got like a literally went on a a tour with her mother of the Caribbean on a yacht or something like that or a cruise ship and got a rare tropical disease like a caricature of a rare tropical disease in Haiti and nearly died like absolutely was at death's door for months and months and months and months and
Guest:couldn't go off to school as a result.
Guest:And in her recovery period, my father said, will you marry me?
Guest:And so they got married and had 11 children rather than going off to be an actress as she'd wanted to be.
Guest:And so on a certain level, though not consciously, I mean, we never discussed it and I never said it to myself, I was doing it inspired by, and I have to imagine in some ways for her, though I wanted it myself.
Guest:And before any of that, I really wanted to be a comedian.
Guest:Really?
Guest:But I didn't know what that meant.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But like, literally, like...
Guest:cosby yeah carlin yeah steve martin sure they were everything and david fry those those were my everything those guys and we're the same age what are you i'm 54 i'm 55 so yeah i'll be 55 soon yeah so that's the the records you had those are the records exactly when you're like in seventh grade right yeah yeah yeah and and um who's the guy who did nixon i mean who did uh kennedy van yeah not van heflin no he just died and not too long ago yeah he did yeah
Guest:Van Meter.
Guest:Vaughn Meter.
Guest:Vaughn Meter, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, we had the Vaughn Meter albums, too.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:So anyway, I just wore those out.
Guest:And I kind of secretly wanted to do that.
Guest:I remember I confessed to a neighbor of mine, a girl named Tinker Hallam, who lived around the corner from me.
Marc:Good name.
Guest:Great name.
Guest:Very nice person.
Guest:And Tinker, she was like, well, what do you want to be?
Guest:And I said, well, I want to be a comedian.
Guest:She goes, oh, you'd be very funny as a comedian.
Guest:I didn't know.
Guest:What do you do?
Marc:How old were you?
Marc:Like 10?
Guest:No, that's teens, mid-teens.
Guest:I'm like 15.
Guest:But I didn't know what that meant.
Guest:How do you become a comedian?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:What does that mean?
Marc:I said the same thing.
Marc:And then one day you find out.
Marc:Like years later.
Marc:There's no way to know.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah, at that age.
Marc:Well, what were you doing to occupy your time as a high school kid?
Marc:Playing a lot of Dungeons and Dragons.
Marc:So you were really dug into the fantasy trip.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:Start off with science fiction first.
Marc:But not a rock and roll guy.
Marc:You weren't out partying.
Guest:No, I did that shortly thereafter.
Guest:I mean, there was a period of time in my late teens.
Guest:My junior year, one of my friends introduced me to a friend of his.
Guest:I was kind of a social outcast in my school.
Marc:Because of your nerdness?
Marc:Yeah, kind of my nerdness.
Marc:I was withdrawn.
Marc:Withdrawn and sad?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Withdrawn and sad and dark and nothing made any sense to me.
Marc:But you didn't... Did you accessorize that or were you just sort of... No.
Guest:You weren't proudly... You did not accessorize that at Porter Gowd School.
Marc:There was no... You had to wear an outfit?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:There was a loose, I mean, yeah, it was like basically, it wasn't official, but you had to wear a blazer and a tie.
Marc:Oh, so you couldn't be proudly sad and dark.
Guest:I was not wearing a t-shirt held together by safety pins or anything like that.
Marc:that was that was no accessorizing the sadness no no no so it was like you know regimental striped ties and blue blazers and knoxford button-down shirts and khaki pants and oh that makes me nervous and doc sides what that the uh the screen just went away where they're recording
Guest:I think he just went to sleep.
Marc:It's just a screensaver?
Guest:Yeah, I think it's just a screensaver.
Guest:We'll find out.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Should I get the guys in here to check it?
Marc:No, it's fine.
Guest:Hey, everything all right over there?
Guest:Oh, screensaver.
Marc:What did I say?
Marc:I know you were right.
Marc:Why are you panicking?
Marc:Because it's one of those things where I've lost a couple.
Marc:I lost two Hodgmans.
Marc:Two Hodgmans?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Two in a row?
Marc:Are we still good?
Marc:Two different Hodgmans?
Marc:Two different Hodgmans for different reasons.
Marc:And I've done a thousand or more of these things.
Marc:But there was a couple of times.
Marc:Can you imagine if you'd lost your Obama?
Marc:Oh, no, we were backed up three times for that.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Three times.
Marc:They were recording it.
Marc:Yeah, there's no backup for this.
Marc:No, this is it, buddy.
Marc:This is on a wire recorder.
Marc:So you're D&D, outcast, weird kid.
Marc:There's Steven.
Marc:How do we handle him?
Guest:Yeah, and I am smoking a lot of weed.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:I end up smoking a lot of weed, yeah.
Marc:And reading sci-fi?
Yeah.
Guest:No, then I moved into a different crowd because then I was with the group that was called the Foggy Five.
Guest:Then we were, you know, getting foggy together.
Marc:Oh, and you had a, that was a secret club, the Foggy Five.
Marc:The Foggy Five, yeah.
Marc:So people knew you as that.
Marc:I think so, yeah.
Marc:But still kind of outcast-y?
Guest:Well, a different kind because, you know,
Guest:we self-imposed kind of outcast-y at that point.
Guest:Like now you found, we found this really nice little, you know, clutch of friends who all of us were damaged in our own ways.
Guest:Like either broken homes or also dead brothers and sisters and fathers.
Guest:And it was a nice little group of damaged people, which I just love the damaged, which is everybody.
Guest:But, and so that was like- You were heading for comedy.
Guest:You were on your way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then actually what we would do is we would, I would tell, I would, I got known for telling stories
Guest:is that we would get all baked and then I would take someone into like a closet, close the door, and I would tell them a story.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Like a fantasy adventure they would go on.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Like they'd fly through space and go into the water and ride dolphins and stuff like that.
Guest:And people would say, me next, me next.
Guest:And I would tell them a new story.
Marc:So that was the thing?
Guest:Yeah, I would get like three.
Guest:It would be like me and Chip and Russell and Tom and I would cram them onto a small closet and I'd go,
Guest:You're floating in space.
Guest:As you put your arms around yourself to hug yourself, it torques you into a spin and the stars wheel around you into a blur until one of them settles into view and grows larger and you're
Guest:plunging toward the sun.
Guest:I would do these sort of audio adventures for them.
Guest:And that was my first sort of like, oh, I bet I could tell people stories.
Guest:I bet that would be fun.
Guest:So I started doing a lot of that.
Guest:And then I started experimenting with lying a lot.
Guest:But not lying.
Guest:In real life.
Guest:Lying, like if somebody didn't know me, I would always lie what my bio was.
Guest:I liked making up who I was a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Constantly.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And even for years, even when I became a professional, I lied in all my bios.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:None of them were really.
Marc:Was there a relief to it?
Marc:Is that what it was?
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Or just fun?
Guest:It was just fun.
Guest:I just loved the fantasy of it.
Marc:But it wasn't because like I'm not good enough or I know.
Marc:You just kind of like fucking with people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I just like taking them on a little mental adventure, you know, because I loved it so much.
Guest:I got so much out of it by reading science fiction or fantasy that I would create these little scenarios for other people because, you know, go with what you know.
Guest:And I spent all my time either playing Dungeons and Dragons, reading science fiction or reading fantasy.
Guest:I mean, all my time.
Guest:If I had put half of the time into my schoolwork, I would have gone to Yale.
Guest:But of course I didn't.
Guest:I played Dungeons and Dragons and read Larry Niven and
Guest:And Isaac Asimov and L. Sprague de Camp and Robert Heinlein and Henry Kuttner and Sam Kornbluth.
Guest:Deep cut like Jack Vance and people like that.
Marc:Looking back on it, what did you get out of all that?
Marc:Was it just enjoyment or just impossible?
Guest:A pretty good broad education.
Guest:I would think so.
Guest:A pretty good broad education because I read – I'm on pace, on pace, you know, a book a day.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And so because science fiction writers tend to be –
Guest:certainly something like Asimov, polymaths, and generalists, and sort of professionally curious.
Guest:You'd learn a lot of things incidentally.
Guest:The things I could not bullshit my way through from all this general knowledge I was getting from reading tons of science fiction, you can't bullshit math.
Guest:Yeah, I know that one.
Guest:And you can't bullshit French.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, which is like math, like the declinations and all that.
Guest:It's like doing math.
Marc:I've just started doing a joke on stage recently because I used to say you can't charm your way through math.
Guest:100% everything else 100% I was charming my way yeah I wrote pretty good essays and stuff like that so I could get history class English excuse me history class or English class or something like that they like your moxie they like your spunk and they like your a little bit a little bit I had an opinion in history class you know I didn't I did not shut up I actually engaged in those classes
Marc:I do this line on stage now where I say, you know, if your job doesn't involve math, you're bullshitting on some level.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Guest:I mean, that's why the best sports are the ones that don't have judges.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:The ones like, did you run faster than the other person?
Guest:You win.
Guest:did you jump higher you win right that's math yeah everything else is bullshit beautiful and i'm not saying it shouldn't be the olympics but there should be this asterisk next to every like yeah you won i mean it's bullshit but you won do you still are you happy about that
Marc:They have that.
Marc:It's wrestling.
Marc:It's like there's a lot of different things.
Marc:No, but wrestling, real wrestling, that's objective.
Marc:Did you pin the person?
Marc:No, I know that.
Marc:No, I'm talking about the spectacle.
Marc:Did you wrestle?
Marc:I did not do any sports.
Marc:No sports?
Marc:No.
Marc:Not even hacky sack?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I mean, I learned how to juggle at some point.
Marc:I used to play some tennis.
Guest:Put that on your Tinder profile.
Guest:Sports, I juggle.
Marc:No, I swam as a kid for a while and I tried to play Little League and then I did... You couldn't play Little League?
Marc:I just was on like the Bad News Bears teams.
Marc:We were just a shitty team.
Marc:Right.
Marc:I mean, I could catch a ball.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:You know, and I swam, and I'm athletic, but I never played competitive sports.
Marc:How do you know you're athletic?
Marc:Because I run, and I lift, and I do things.
Marc:I can hit a softball.
Marc:I can catch.
Marc:I play a little tennis.
Guest:You can hit a softball is your definition of athletic?
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:I can lift things.
Guest:What are you talking?
Guest:What are you putting me on?
Guest:Athleticism, I think, also involves a certain amount of grace, awareness.
Guest:Yes, I have all that.
Guest:But you've never tested it?
Marc:Sure, I have.
Marc:I run a few miles.
Marc:I hike up a hill.
Marc:It's not.
Marc:And you can run a few miles so you can like out.
Guest:I can swim.
Marc:That's evolutionary.
Marc:I can swim.
Marc:If you couldn't do that, your ancestors would not have lived long enough for you to exist.
Marc:Well, what would I need to do, Stephen?
Marc:I mean, I can't throw a ball through a hoop.
Marc:I can't do that.
Marc:Am I out?
Guest:That would be athletic.
Guest:Yes, that would be athletic.
Guest:Hand-eye coordination.
Marc:I can play tennis.
Marc:I can hit a ball.
Guest:Okay.
Marc:All right, so am I good?
Guest:Are you good at tennis?
Guest:I'm all right.
Guest:Then you're not athletic.
Guest:You have to be good at something.
Guest:You have to be good at a sport to be called athletic.
Guest:You were playing, you were playing a sport.
Guest:That's not the same thing as being athletic.
Marc:I don't know why this became an attack of my, like, and you're supposed to be one of the good guys.
Marc:And now I'm like, now I'm a shitty person because I'm not athletic.
Marc:I've always been acting all those years that you thought I was.
Marc:I don't have, I'm not good with competition is the problem.
Yeah.
Guest:I don't have the temperament for it.
Guest:I once had a paper basket shoot off.
Guest:Like, you know, you just take balls up, you know, ball up some paper and you shoot some baskets with Dr. J. He was a guest on the old show.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And right before I went on stage, one of my executive producers said to me, hey, man, just prepare yourself because, you know, you don't get to be like Dr. J. Yeah.
Marc:unless you're really competitive yeah and i said hey just just he should prepare himself because you don't get to host one of these unless you're really competitive yeah i i'm just like i'm the kind of guy that like you know in an office situation you know when you're playing a dumb game like that just throwing things in a garbage can you know there's the one guy that when he doesn't make it
Marc:like there's a lot more things going on yes about failing is that you yeah a little bit okay it used to be i don't care anymore i you know if i i more i'm more prone to like throw it in if it misses i'll be like of course oh my god that's so sad of course i don't deserve to get a piece of paper in a trash can i just get what can it work out once once so close
Marc:Look, so you're fantasizing in closets for friends.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And fantasizing in closets for myself, too.
Guest:I used to play a lot of magical thinking.
Guest:Actually, I discussed this with Conan on his podcast.
Guest:We might be double dipping on podcast.
Guest:Magical thinking.
Guest:Magical thinking is that I would get into a closet and I would go, okay, I wonder if I held my breath for a certain amount of time, I could have my brother back.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Stuff like that.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, I mean, magical thinking is sort of necessary for the suspending of disbelief in order to have faith in the first place, isn't it?
Marc:I mean, magical thinking in a managed way is part of the whole trip, isn't it?
Guest:I don't perceive magical thinking and religion as the same thing, because magical thinking...
Guest:Magic is trying to, and I forgot who said this, I'm quoting somebody here.
Guest:Magic is an attempt to control the Godhead.
Guest:Magic is a way to control God and control creation.
Guest:Faith is the opposite.
Guest:Faith is acceptance.
Guest:So it's magical thinking is actually, it's completely antithetical to my faith.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:When do you start actually training as an actor?
Marc:Tell me about Chicago and that scene.
Marc:How did you get there?
Marc:I didn't do any play until I was a senior.
Guest:In high school?
Guest:In high school, yeah.
Guest:I finally got up the gumption to audition for something.
Guest:And I got a part at a local community theater.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then did the...
Guest:The musical with my girlfriend, we were Annie Oakley and Frank Butler and Annie Get Your Gun.
Guest:And then like, well, but I can't do this.
Guest:I mean, I can't tell anybody that this is what I want to do.
Guest:And so then I also barely graduated from high school.
Marc:Really?
Guest:My friends, my Dungeons and Dragons friends who were all- They dragged you down?
Guest:No, they were all straight A students.
Guest:They all opted out.
Guest:I mean, they all placed out of their exams because they all had A's.
Guest:They didn't have to take final exams.
Guest:They actually sat me down.
Guest:Each one of them took a different day.
Guest:They came over to my house, sat me down, and they ran me through, okay, everything you need to know about trig.
Guest:Here's everything you need to know about French.
Guest:Here's everything you need to know.
Guest:And they drilled me for hours.
Guest:So you just retained enough for the test.
Guest:Vomited out the next day.
Guest:I aced every one of my finals, and I graduated from high school.
Guest:But if I hadn't aced all of them, I would not have graduated with my class.
Guest:And so I barely graduated, and then I went to a good college named Hampton-Sydney.
Guest:a college in Virginia that was
Guest:I would say it was not that hard to get into, but really hard to stay.
Guest:They failed a lot of people out there.
Guest:They were very rigorous once you got there.
Guest:And I learned in some ways how to write there.
Guest:They had a fantastic rhetoric program, and I did plays there too.
Guest:And I realized there, when I was there doing those plays, that I thought, oh, wow, wisdom is lost on those who won't act wisely.
Guest:And I'm being given a hint here by the universe because the only thing that I will show up early for and stay late for and nobody has to ask me to do it is to work on a play.
Guest:Like no one has to say you should go audition for that.
Guest:And I would, even if I wasn't in it, I would run lines with anybody else.
Guest:I would go sweep the theater just to be in the theater on campus.
Marc:Well, it's like living within the fantasy land.
Marc:I suppose so.
Marc:Like just to be in a theater.
Marc:All the possibilities of that place.
Marc:Like even here, like you notice, even though you take it for granted, you walk into that theater, it is a zone in itself that is fantastic.
Marc:Sacred space.
Marc:Right, yeah.
Marc:So you must have felt that early on.
Guest:I guess, not sort of consciously, I just really loved being there.
Guest:All I knew was that it occurred to me one day that I was the first person there, the last person to leave, and I would do any amount of work, and I would run lines 20 times.
Guest:Even if I had, I would do it any number of times, and I never complained, and I always was happy to be there.
Guest:I went, I should try to do this.
Guest:I should sort of confess to myself that this is what I want to do.
Guest:And this was in the depths of this terrible sadness, sort of debilitating, almost like a sickness that I was in.
Marc:Did you have to go get medicine?
Marc:Did you have to see a doctor?
Guest:They thought I had tuberculosis because I'd lost so much weight.
Guest:I got tested for TB because I was green.
Guest:You looked at me and said, that person's not well, kind of thin.
Guest:And so then I said, well, I guess I'll try to go to a theater school.
Guest:I still wanted an undergrad experience.
Guest:And I'd done well in school.
Guest:My grades had improved.
Guest:And so there was nothing to do.
Guest:Hampton, Sydney College, Hampton, Sydney, Virginia, it's all male college, 700 students in the middle of like 15 minutes from Farmville.
Guest:There's nothing to do there.
Guest:And I wasn't, you know, I wasn't.
Marc:And you were sad and skinny.
Marc:I was sad.
Guest:So I spent a lot of time.
Guest:I did the work for two years.
Guest:And then I transferred to Northwestern University to the theater program there.
Guest:And that's, then it was completely different.
Guest:Then that was the beginning of my new life.
Marc:Did it turn around?
Marc:Did your sadness turn around?
Marc:Do you remember the day?
Guest:No, the sadness did not turn around.
Marc:No.
Guest:No, as a matter of fact, in some ways it was worse because I was being asked to confront it directly because we were doing sort of method work.
Guest:Were you able to?
Guest:Not very well.
Guest:Not very well.
Guest:I remember my teacher, Ann Woodworth, wonderful teacher who I learned so much from.
Guest:Didn't even realize how much I learned from until I'd gone to try to work professionally for years.
Guest:And then I went, oh, this is what she was teaching me.
Guest:She saw through a lot of my bullshit and my charm.
Guest:And my I was facile.
Guest:I could learn lines very quickly.
Guest:I get a sense of how the scene might work.
Guest:But there wasn't a lot of an emotional truth to the work that I did.
Guest:And she kept on saying, but how do you feel?
Guest:And I remember blowing up at her once.
Guest:Anger.
Guest:Oh, blowing up with her because she wasn't buying.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:My well.
Guest:a well-constructed facsimile of human emotion for her.
Guest:And remember she's saying, how do you feel?
Guest:How do you actually feel?
Guest:I'm like, I feel fine.
Guest:Really?
Guest:How do you feel?
Guest:And I remember her sitting on the edge of the stage and me, out of nowhere, not knowing how it happened, me like looming over her.
Guest:like a wave about to break on her because I'm standing on stage and she's sitting on the edge and she's not looking at me.
Guest:She's sort of looking off to the side and me going, I don't like yelling, not even at you and you want me to yell.
Guest:And she just said,
Guest:How do you feel?
Guest:Like that.
Guest:And it completely undid me.
Guest:Did you cry?
Guest:Yeah, absolutely.
Guest:Just like classic, you know, acting class as therapy, which it should not be, you know, really gets mistaken for therapy a lot.
Guest:And that's one of the reasons why I love Barry.
Guest:That TV show is so brilliant.
Marc:It's so good.
Marc:It's perfect in every way.
Marc:I've watched it.
Marc:It's so good.
Guest:It's perfect in every way.
Guest:And I recognize that acting class so perfectly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But like that's that moment, though, where, you know, without understanding it, the relationship between sadness and anger is very close.
Guest:Because anger is not really your emotion.
Guest:Anger is your last armor before you show your actual emotion.
Marc:Like I felt when you just did that exercise in explanation, I felt it.
Marc:Like, I felt that because I'm a guy who lives in a certain or did in a certain amount of anger out of fear of being engulfed by the sadness.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Or to be judged for your feelings.
Guest:Well, yeah, I don't know.
Guest:For me, it was vulnerability, too, to be seen as these feelings were so debilitating.
Guest:But it's all you want to do is be seen, though.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:You want to be seen, but instead you create some very close version of yourself for people to see.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Innately.
Marc:It's not like you're seeing it going on.
Marc:No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Guest:It's just, it's yeah.
Guest:It snaps together about Legos.
Guest:A version of you snaps together like Legos without even thinking about it.
Marc:And I'm at this place right now in my life where I'm like, I can't, I don't want to manage that shit anymore.
Marc:What am I so afraid of?
Marc:You know, like that, like if I, if I open that up, it will never, the crying will never stop.
Guest:yes if you if you pay any attention if you pay any attention to the world the crying will never stop that's right it's true and you know that it just kind of locks in with the the sadness that's already there yeah if you already have that yeah yeah yeah so that's a daily thing man yeah right
Guest:So I have a bit of a breakthrough, and I realize, oh, I'm – I kind of realize in that moment, oh, I am – which is obvious, of course, but you don't – I'm not looking at myself.
Guest:Again, I'm shaving looking at a cork board.
Guest:I'm not really looking at the mirror.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Like that was one of those moments.
Guest:Oh, I guess I am damaged.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And my teacher actually said, I won't teach you anymore unless you go to therapy.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Did you?
Guest:Yeah, I did.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Did it help?
Guest:Yeah, a little bit.
Guest:I mean, I took it mildly seriously.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:All it did was like open me to the idea that I got a lot of work to do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I didn't do that work.
Marc:No, you can hold on to that idea.
Marc:Like I just recently reengaged that idea.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Within the last few weeks.
Marc:I got a lot of work to do.
Marc:I got work to do.
Marc:I'm going to go do it.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:And then I didn't do it.
Guest:I didn't do it.
Guest:But at least, you know, a she kept me in her class.
Guest:And also I became at least at least aware enough to know that I've got a lot of unresolved stuff going on.
Guest:And I wonder what that is still.
Guest:not not as much no no not at that time yeah did the work do itself no you 100 did not do itself i had a nervous breakdown when i was 29 like literally like 10 years after i don't do the work 10 years later i had a nervous like completely like i wouldn't wish this panic attack on anyone i wouldn't wish i wouldn't wish on anyone but my worst enemy is i wouldn't want to make feel the way i felt for months at 29 29 yeah yeah
Guest:So a month married, one month married.
Guest:How about that?
Guest:How's that a wedding present for your wife?
Guest:Is that the guy that she thought she married?
Guest:She comes home.
Guest:She's like, what did you do all day?
Guest:I'm walking in tight circles around a couch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You know, it's like, how was your day?
Guest:And like, you're looking at it because I was just if I physically kept moving, if I physically kept moving, like it wouldn't get me.
Guest:oh do you know what i mean from the inside or back here back in the peripheral vision where you can't see it it's always there yeah the worst possible thing that'll ever happen to you right right which must never be named yeah or ever be known right you just gotta stay steady stay busy just keep moving just keep moving keep that was at 29 yeah yeah what where what was your where were you in your career uh i was at second city i was i was i was a working you know actor
Guest:okay so you go to northwestern then you get involved with uh i get involved i do you know i do the standard i do a three-year program in two years which was kind of intense for acting straight up acting straight up theater major yep i mean i still have northwest you still have a you still get like a liberal arts education it's not yeah it's not a conservatory but i finished most of that stuff it's undergrad so you're doing the whole thing and i'd finished i'd finished the core curriculum at at hampsydney the other place yeah and so i came in and essentially just did a conservatory program the equivalent thereof at northwestern for two years
Guest:And I loved it.
Guest:You know, Shakespeare and Shaw and the ancient Greeks.
Marc:It seems like you really take it in.
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:I think that if anything, outside of whatever you didn't study in high school, the compulsion to really engage with science fiction and fantasy kind of opened your brain and you seem to have the grooves laid for any of that stuff.
Guest:Yeah, and also Dungeons and Dragons.
Marc:It's role playing.
Guest:yeah you know but like just to to really connect like you connect to poetry i can feel it you you quote it it means i love it i love even when i had no connection to uh scripture right even when that sort of was hollow for me then poetry stepped in to be a bomb sure you know in gilead right yeah because like when when poems open up it's like
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That was a great revelation for me is working on sonnets.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:The first thing they had us do in Shakespeare was like, okay, you got to go read a sonnet.
Guest:You got to read it until you understand it.
Guest:Like, I get it.
Guest:Like, no, you don't.
Guest:And then you read it like 10 times and explicate the meaning and the rhythm and you go, and suddenly, and it always happens.
Guest:It's never not happened.
Guest:Right.
Guest:it opens like an egg and you see the chicken side.
Guest:You go, oh, he's a genius.
Guest:It's not just, it doesn't just rhyme.
Guest:It doesn't just mean something.
Guest:It means one particular thing that's almost behind the cage of those 14 lines of iambic.
Marc:And the way that that experience happens outside of the math.
Marc:That's one of those things, like there's a math to it, A, B, A, B. But it's not the math.
Marc:No, it's not.
Marc:Because then all of a sudden it's like, how could I have ever seen that without, like, you know, you had to do the, you had to cross the threshold somehow.
Guest:Sure, sure.
Guest:It's exciting.
Guest:When in disgrace with fortune and man's eyes, I all alone beweep my outcast state and trouble deaf heaven with my bootless cries and look upon myself and curse my fate, wishing me like to one more rich in hope, featured like him, like him with friends possessed,
Guest:Desiring this man's art and that man's scope.
Guest:And what I most enjoyed contented least.
Guest:Yet in these thoughts myself almost despising.
Guest:Happily I think on thee.
Guest:And then my state like to the lark at break of day.
Guest:Arising from sullen earth sings hymns at heaven's gate.
Guest:For thy sweet love remembered such wealth brings.
Guest:That then I scorn to change my state with kings.
Wow.
Guest:That's the first one I worked on.
Guest:That's a good one.
Guest:It is a good one, isn't it?
Marc:It seems like a lot of pressure for the woman, whoever he's involved with.
Guest:I don't know if it's a woman.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It could be anyone.
Marc:Who he loved in general.
Guest:It could be anyone.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Thou.
Guest:Thou.
Guest:Thy sweet love remembered.
Marc:Yes, right, yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But that turmoil of the heart.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:When there's nothing in my life, when I'm completely destitute, all I need to do is remember that you exist.
Guest:That's all I need to do.
Marc:And that's a spiritual idea as well.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, thank you for that beautiful rendition.
Guest:yeah somebody out there is like got out there complete shakespeare right now is going oh did he oh no he inverted two of the lines fucker yeah you know what you don't need those people i don't need those people in my life because i am those people in my life yeah exactly they're living within you and if you're gonna get trolled for not doing a sonnet properly i'm gonna do it
Marc:You're on it.
Marc:Don't worry.
Marc:Tell me something I don't know.
Marc:My inner troll is all over that.
Marc:The comment board is full.
Marc:He's meaner than you could possibly be.
Marc:So right after out of Northwestern, you go into the improv thing?
Guest:No, I started improv at Northwestern.
Guest:A friend of mine said, hey, do you want to go downtown and see this thing called the Herald Improv at this club in Chicago that doesn't exist anymore called Cross Currents?
Guest:and it was Del Close and Sharna Halpern, and those people were creating this new long form of improvisation called The Herald.
Guest:It already previously existed, but they turned it into like a competition.
Marc:So you knew Del?
Guest:Yeah, I studied with Del, yeah, at the very beginning.
Guest:Not a lot.
Guest:I never had like a...
Guest:Some people have sort of a guru relationship with him.
Guest:And I don't mean that pejoratively.
Guest:I just mean that I just didn't spend enough time with him for him to become that meaningful of a figure in my life.
Marc:But was it before?
Guest:But he was the first person to teach me improv.
Marc:But was that before he became sort of this Buddha?
Guest:No, he was already.
Guest:Like, he was at that time.
Guest:By the time I knew him, he was already very important to a lot of people.
Guest:I mean, of course, he'd been a mainstay of Chicago and world improv because he was one of the early people of the Second City.
Marc:Did you feel the power?
Marc:You say he wasn't a guru to you?
Marc:How did you take him in?
Marc:Just as a teacher?
Guest:You didn't develop... I felt... I mean, I liked...
Guest:I think I would like to have spent more time with him, because especially as someone who's looking for a father figure, I think I would like to have spent more time with him.
Marc:Yeah, but I don't hear that a lot in your story, talking to you, that you would assume that you would be looking for a father figure.
Marc:Did you find them?
Guest:No, brother figures.
Guest:Because I also lost my two brothers at the same time, so I found a lot of brother figures.
Guest:Paul Danilo is a brother figure.
Guest:Jon Stewart is a brother figure.
Marc:Yeah, so those were deep emotional relationships.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Still.
Guest:Still, yeah.
Guest:That's nice.
Guest:And so I fell in love with improvisation then.
Guest:There's something about it.
Guest:I saw the first night I went there, there were teams, improv teams.
Guest:And this improv team was called Barron's Barracudas.
Guest:And if somebody was a Chicago improv person in the 80s, they know exactly.
Guest:There was sort of a legendary group of people, amazing people on that.
Guest:And the person I most admired was a guy named Dave Pasquese.
Guest:I work with Dave.
Marc:He's still there.
Marc:He's an actor.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:He's still a friend of mine.
Guest:But I saw Dave on stage and I immediately went, who is that?
Guest:What does he have inside his mind that I want to know?
Guest:As a performer, not like I didn't admire him as a performer, though I did.
Guest:What I meant is that I would see him on stage and go, he's got a secret.
Guest:I'm waiting for his character to reveal his secret.
Guest:There was some sort of...
Guest:vibe I got from him that was always a little bit more that he wasn't sharing that was very interesting and made everything he did seem interesting and sort of like he's just about to open a door to some inner thought as well.
Guest:And I admired him, I still do, I still kinda wanna be Dave Pasquese because I admire improvisers so much and he's the best one I know.
Guest:And so I saw him and I saw a bunch of other people in Chicago and I did that for a couple years.
Guest:I improvised in Chicago for a couple years while I was still at school.
Marc:With a company?
Guest:With a group I formed with some friends at Northwestern called the No Fun Mud Piranhas.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Schwimmer was one of them.
Guest:And we would go downtown and perform at Cross Currents.
Guest:And that was my first taste of...
Guest:professional comedy life.
Guest:And I loved it.
Marc:And how'd you meet Sideris and those crews?
Guest:When I got out of college, I formed a theater company for one year, which disappeared in a hail of blood and bones.
Guest:It just didn't last.
Guest:And then I traveled for a long time.
Guest:And then I came back to Chicago with not a penny.
Guest:I mean, not a penny.
Guest:Where'd you travel?
Guest:All over Europe.
Guest:I got a job working at an arts festival in Italy called the Spoleto Festival, the Festival dei Duimondi.
Guest:And I was a voce recitante, I was a reciting voice with orchestras.
Guest:I did Enoch Arden by Tennyson with Paolo Bordoni on the piano playing this music by Strauss.
Guest:I did Ferdinand, the Monroe Leaf story with a little chamber orchestra.
Guest:Did you go to the Vatican?
Guest:I did, but this was not that part of Italy.
Guest:And so I did that for a while.
Guest:And then I just traveled around Europe just to not come home because I had no career and I had no money.
Guest:And so I just slept on the side of the road.
Marc:This in your mid-20s?
Guest:23.
Guest:And then I came back when I was still 23.
Guest:And a friend of mine, I had no place to live.
Guest:I had no job.
Guest:I had nothing.
Guest:Not $8.
Guest:And a friend of mine was the box office manager at Second City.
Guest:And she said, well, if you want to answer phones here, I can pay $8 an hour or whatever it was.
Guest:And so I went and answered the phones with a guy named Jeff Garland.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He was one of the other phone names.
Guest:answering the phone loudly he would he would say look at this and he would pick up the thing and you'd have like 12 second city was always sold out there'd be like 12 lights lit up of people waiting in line yeah and he would go release release release release they would all be on hold and he would release all of them just to see their little lights disappear
Guest:The power.
Guest:The power.
Guest:And so then I started taking classes there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you could take classes for free if you worked there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I was a part-time worker.
Guest:They still let me take classes.
Guest:And I mean, you can find online.
Guest:There's pictures of my first day at Second City.
Guest:They take a Polaroid view against a wall.
Guest:There's my day, Amy's day.
Guest:Carell's Day, though he was a little bit ahead of me, Danello.
Guest:And we were like all early, mid-20s people, not knowing what to do with our lives, kind of misfits, but Second City is kind of a misfit junction.
Marc:And then you were in The Annoyance, too?
Guest:I did that with... I did a couple of things with Mick Napier at Annoyance, but I mostly just did Second City.
Guest:And I had sort of been... Second City got bad-mouthed by the pure improv people in Chicago, but I found out that...
Guest:they were great everybody was there trying to make people laugh and god there was a paying audience every night and and you could experiment all you wanted in the improv set and then you would craft it you know you'd learn a little something about dramatic structure yeah um to be able to make your sketches and make the scenes that we never called it sketches we only called it scenes yeah scene work and and i fell in love with the place and and then i made my career there for the next four or five years actually and then you had the breakdown
Guest:Breakdown was after that.
Guest:Breakdown was after I had already, yeah, Breakdown was toward the end of that.
Guest:I got married, yeah, I was 29.
Guest:I had the breakdown.
Guest:I remember I'd be, I was in such a deep panic attack all the time that I'd be backstage, you know, because you can still go to a show, still do eight shows a week.
Guest:And so I'd be backstage on a couch like that, but much rattier than the couch in here.
Guest:And I'd be curled up in a ball, just lying on there with my face kind of tucked in the corner of the couch so I didn't have to talk to anybody.
Marc:Just free-floating anxiety?
Marc:Or what was it?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:My skin was on fire.
Guest:I don't know how to describe it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I think what's horrible about panic attacks, and again, God help me, this is the only really one I've ever had, is that after a while, it didn't become about anything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:It was just itself.
Guest:It was just on you.
Guest:Dread?
Guest:Dread, like existential dread.
Guest:Never be happy again.
Guest:And why would you ever have been happy?
Guest:And nothing you ever want will ever come to pass.
Guest:And every choice you've ever made is the wrong one.
Guest:Like terrible, debilitating, a truly mental illness.
Guest:How'd you get through it?
Guest:Well, I started off with some Xanax, but I did that for a week.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I said, I could feel that the gears were still spinning.
Guest:And what Xanax had done.
Guest:Just made them go slow.
Guest:No, it had thrown an insulated blanket over the gearbox.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I couldn't hear them anymore.
Guest:But I could sure still smell that smoke.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:Coming out of that gearbox.
Guest:So I stopped.
Guest:And then, I mean, it came on me.
Guest:Again, like an animal.
Guest:It was a hard thing to go off.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Just because I knew it would come back really hard.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And what really got over it was that I did it for months and months and months.
Guest:Again, I'd be backstage.
Guest:I'd hear my cue to go on stage coming up, and I would kind of uncurl like the Alien, at the end of Alien, how it stashed itself in the side of the escape pod with Sigourney Weaver, and it kind of uncurls itself and comes out.
Guest:I would do that.
Guest:I would untangle my limbs and go on stage, and I'd feel fine on stage.
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:That is the moment where you realize this is the best thing I do in my life.
Marc:Thank God for this.
Marc:It happened to me late in life where I'd walk on stage before the show just to feel it, and I'd be like, I know what this is.
Marc:I know what happens here.
Guest:it actually scared me a little bit though yeah because i i thought oh if i'm not on stage like i'm helpless in a way yeah and it made it made made things feel like a drug to me a little bit what's wrong with that well there are times when you're not on stage is the problem
Guest:And then one morning I woke up and the feeling was gone.
Guest:A gift.
Guest:And I couldn't understand why until I realized, oh, this is the first day of rehearsals for the new show.
Guest:And what that means at Second City is you're not going in to do material.
Guest:You're going in to create material and rehearse it as you create it.
Guest:You're basically improvising all day long for months with the other cast members.
Guest:Living in the present.
Guest:Constantly in the moment of creation, eight hours a day, five days a week, and then you're still doing the shows at night.
Guest:It's very taxing.
Guest:Then you slowly take that material and you switch out
Guest:And that never went away?
Guest:I mean, that never came back?
Guest:No, that was it.
Guest:I hadn't even done it yet.
Guest:I just knew I had the opportunity that day to improvise all day long.
Guest:And the deep panic and the skin on fire went away.
Guest:And I thought to myself, well, I guess I'm doing the right thing for a living because it's going to save my life.
Marc:But at some point, is this like, now this is where I got to fast forward because you got a day to have.
Marc:Now, at some point though, is that the role that faith began to play in your life a bit?
Guest:Did that like- Faith happened before that.
Guest:Faith happened before that.
Guest:I was just walking down the street in Chicago and summoned me, a Gideon handed me a Gideon Bible, handed me a New Testament Proverbs and Psalms.
Guest:And that's when it came back?
Guest:And I just opened it up, and there was a little thing in the front of it, a little, the table of contents in the little pocket Bible they gave me just had things to, thinking about this, try this scripture, and it just said anxiety.
Guest:And so I opened up, it said, go to Matthew 5, and that's the Sermon on the Mount.
Guest:And I read the sermon, and I was suddenly struck with the idea that, you know the phrase, like, it spoke to me?
Guest:It really didn't feel like I was reading.
Guest:It felt like it was literally speaking off the page.
Guest:There was no effort at all.
Guest:And what's great about the New Testament is that even when I had no faith at all,
Guest:the words of christ always had a very special feeling not not like and then he went to you know yeah capernaum and healed them none of that literally what he says yeah and sermon is that is that chapter after chapter of just jesus talking and giving you advice so i say to you do not worry yeah for who among you by worrying can change a hair on his head or out of cuba to the span of his life don't stop and it changed my life and it at a moment of revelation there and i've never been the same
Marc:Now, since we have this time, since I apparently didn't pace myself properly.
Marc:Yeah, I'm sure I threw logs on the railroad tracks at this interview.
Marc:This was your trick.
Marc:It is.
Marc:You were going to dance around you.
Marc:I just rope and dope you, baby.
Marc:I know, man.
Marc:I just rope and dope you.
Marc:That's what I figured would happen.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:I don't feel like that.
Marc:A couple questions.
Marc:Starting with politics, like that in the 2006, the dinner.
Guest:The correspondence dinner, yes.
Marc:To me, I thought that was a phenomenally ballsy, crazy, insanely beautiful thing that happened.
Marc:But a good deal of the culture didn't receive it that way in terms of they misunderstood that.
Guest:And even the part of the culture that actually...
Guest:did receive it with its intention, didn't do so for a couple of days because who was watching C-SPAN back then?
Guest:And these dinners weren't necessarily cultural events the way that they have become now, especially since the resistance.
Marc:Well, I think you've frightened all Republican presidents from here forward for ever doing it, which is fine.
Guest:But YouTube was brand new at the time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And it was one of the first that dinner was really was sort of received by people once they saw it on YouTube.
Marc:When you were doing it, did you know what was happening?
Marc:Did you know that like, you know, that I guess my question is, were you when you when you went up there as that character, were you just confident in your jokes or did you realize?
Guest:I was confident in the jokes.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But did you realize that immediately the vulnerability of that particular president and the people that knew him that it was going to take the turn it did?
Marc:No, I did not.
Guest:Well, first of all, as you can attest to, if things aren't properly miked, the people watching on TV at home don't know what the room's like at all.
Guest:And the room actually wasn't as dead as it seems like on air because there's one mic and was pointed at my face.
Guest:And so it had to be a giant laugh for you to hear it at all.
Guest:Right.
Guest:There were some good laughs in there.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:But there were also some delightful silences.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Very respectful silences at various times.
Guest:And I could tell that the man himself on my right was not enjoying it.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:He felt that.
Guest:Well, I only looked at him once or twice, the whole thing.
Guest:And I thought to myself, I'm going nowhere near that man.
Guest:Because I actually had one joke that I cut.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Which was?
Guest:It was...
Guest:This man, because he recently had been criticized for giving away Medals of Freedom to people like George Tenet.
Guest:People who had completely shanked the Iraq War were getting Medals of Freedom as they were being ushered out the door because they were such disasters.
Guest:And I said, this man gives out Medals of Freedom like they're candy.
Guest:No one ever gives him anything.
Guest:Well, that ends tonight.
Guest:And I gave him a certificate.
Guest:I had a certificate of presidency.
Guest:We made it look like something you get at the Learning Annex.
Guest:You know, fancy, but cheap.
Guest:And it was a certificate of presidency.
Guest:And it said, this certificate indicates that I, Stephen Colbert, and I wrote it all in with my left hand, so what my child did.
Guest:Stephen Colbert acknowledges that George W. Bush is president of the United States.
Guest:And I dated it and I signed it and everything.
Guest:And it was gonna be like, give this to your mom, put up on the fridge, you know?
Guest:Be a little something for your mom.
Guest:So anyway, I loved that.
Guest:I mean, listen, I could tell that there were some things that there was, there was like a, just a whiff of brimstone in the room.
Guest:But I didn't realize that it was going to turn into anything.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I didn't really care how the people on the dais responded.
Guest:Of course, I'm making jokes about them.
Guest:Or even the front row, who were all people whose jobs depended on the people on the dais.
Guest:But it was playing pretty well to the back of the room.
Guest:And it wasn't until the next day that I realized that it had turned into a thing.
Guest:As my executive producer, Tom Purcell, said, look, we were throwing bottles of grape knee high, albeit...
Guest:with a burning rag in the neck.
Guest:We weren't really throwing Molotov cocktails.
Guest:We were just pretending.
Guest:And he goes, what we didn't know was that the room was soaked with gasoline.
Guest:The room was on fire, you know, by itself.
Guest:I was there to make, I was hoping the president would laugh, really.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I even wrote him a letter saying like, I hope you enjoyed it.
Guest:I mean, maybe you didn't.
Guest:Did he?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, legally, I think he has to receive it.
Marc:So now, because the evolution of the show and how it started, the show you're on now, kind of was finding your footing.
Marc:Yeah, no idea.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Publicly not having any idea is what we did.
Marc:And Trump, as awful as it is, people rely on you to be a foil to this.
Guest:I rely on, as I said before, I rely on going to do it so I can express how I feel about it.
Marc:So how do you feel on a day to day basis?
Marc:Are you terrified?
Marc:Are you angry?
Marc:Because I know that I like especially lately, I'm becoming a bit hopeless.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I'm not I'm I'm not I'm not hopeless because we're entering.
Guest:into a new cycle.
Guest:For the last two years, there really has been no story.
Guest:I mean, there have been individual tragedies or individual triumphs happening in this sort of the national conversation.
Guest:I don't want to say news, but like what people are talking about, because I don't do news, but I do do what people are talking about.
Guest:And and I just said do do.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And but that's going to change now because we're going into the new presidential campaign.
Guest:And he will at a certain point, the president will only be 50 percent of what people are talking about.
Marc:Right.
Guest:They'll be talking about his competition, you know, all in reference.
Marc:You think he's going to let that happen?
Guest:I don't think he has a choice.
Guest:I actually think there's one nice thing about our constitutional democracy is that the necessity of the election will have to balance out.
Marc:And you think the democracy is going to hold up?
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I don't think it'll disappear in our lifetime.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:I mean, obviously it can.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It can.
Guest:But I think that the 2018 elections show you that people do give a shit.
Guest:And also- You know, that people are capable of shock and change.
Guest:And that actually, I was pretty depressed before the 2018 election.
Guest:And then once it actually happened, I went, oh, this will be interesting.
Guest:There'll be some level of pushback and change here.
Guest:And that's always hopeful.
Guest:Any amount of change.
Guest:Like if you can't have any change at all, that's when things get hopeless.
Guest:And there's clearly change is possible.
Marc:Well, that's good.
Marc:I'm glad to hear you think that.
Marc:And a lot of people listen to you.
Marc:I just read some article about this extensive survey about when you and John left the airwaves, that voting in a certain age group went down.
Marc:That even if you weren't informing them, you were making them aware enough that they had to vote.
Marc:So know that you carry that.
Marc:Okay, good.
Marc:Make sure you get them out to vote.
Guest:Do you know how much John and I used to talk about like we're not here to actuate the youth vote?
Guest:Really?
Guest:Because people want you to be an activist.
Guest:If you talk about politics, they can't imagine you would talk about it and not be an activist, not want to be a playa.
Guest:Like when we did our rally on the mall, it couldn't, no one could conceive that we could possibly want to talk about politics without wanting to be political players.
Guest:But yeah, it was, it's tricky.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We absolutely not at all.
Guest:As I said to John, like, you know, as it says at the end, near the end of the Lord of the Rings, when they're trying to figure out what to do, you know, how to, how to destroy Sauron.
Guest:Gandalf says it hasn't entered into Sauron's like wildest dreams that we would want to destroy the ring.
Yeah.
Guest:They think we want to use it.
Guest:Why do they think we want to be political players?
Guest:All we do is make fun of these people.
Marc:Well, you kind of know you are.
Guest:No, I don't know that I am.
Guest:If I was a political player, Donald Trump would not be president.
Marc:Well, I mean, I'm just saying that people listen to you and people are scared.
Guest:No, you can say that people can say that you influence them.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's fine.
Guest:I've said this before.
Guest:If people say that I influence them, that's entirely their judgment.
Guest:My intention is to do the jokes.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:And so if your intention is to do that, then you're not a political player.
Guest:People can say you talk about politics.
Guest:People can say you influence how they think about politics.
Guest:But your intention has to be to play with this thing, to control or to change.
Guest:And your intention is everything.
Guest:People's interpretation is none of my damn business.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I'll let that be.
Marc:you're you're you're nothing if not a gracious host thanks for talking to me pal oh i really enjoyed it we never even got into our history it's all right that's all i mean air america rise up yeah it's is it back is it back can i get the job right now just today can i get the job this is air america i gotta leave here and go over to maddow studio and then and then al frankens we did all right all right how'd you feel about it did i get anything new
Guest:Yeah, you did, actually.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:You got some new stuff.
Guest:Because my publicist, Carrie Bialik, the great Carrie Bialik, who's actually a manager now, she said, I'll listen.
Guest:And I always enjoy it if you've said something you haven't said before.
Guest:And I know for a fact I'm going to walk out the door.
Guest:She goes, oh, you never said that thing about the thing.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:So you got a few new things in there.
Guest:Well, thanks, buddy.
Guest:Thanks for talking.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Bye.
Bye.
Marc:Wow, we got in it, right?
Marc:Just off and running.
Marc:I have no instrument.
Marc:Me and Johnny Flynn played some guitar, a couple of 12-strings, hung out for a half hour or so, in between takes, did some blues, did some talking.
Marc:We've been talking a lot about music, man, a lot about music.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:It's great.
Marc:All kinds of new things going into my head, new ways of looking at things.
Marc:Boomer lives!
Boomer lives!
you