Episode 1022 - Timothy Olyphant
Marc:Lock the gates!
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What the fuck sticks?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Marin.
Marc:This is my podcast.
Marc:Clearly, I'm not at home.
Marc:You can probably hear the difference.
Marc:I would imagine.
Marc:Are you OK?
Marc:It's Memorial Day.
Marc:I hope you're taking it easy.
Marc:Maybe say a prayer.
Marc:Have a few memories.
Marc:You know, pay a little respect to the people that do the service.
Marc:dedicated their lives to this country, eat some good food, don't get into political arguments with family members, don't burn the burgers or fuck up the ribs or overcook the salmon.
Marc:Look, if you're trying to grill onions on that thing and they fall into the coals, just let it burn out.
Marc:Don't freak out.
Marc:Don't lose your shit at the grill.
Marc:All right.
Marc:That's all I'm saying, because as you know and as I know, if you're losing your shit at the grill, it's probably about something else.
Marc:Oh, by the way, Timothy Oliphant is on the show today.
Marc:You know him from Deadwood Justified.
Marc:But he came over and, yeah, he was wearing a hat.
Marc:You know, sometimes you wonder about these these stars of things where they wear hats.
Marc:Does he wear a hat all the time?
Marc:He did wear a hat when he came over.
Marc:So why am I doing this right now?
Marc:Why am I sitting upstairs in a room at Comedy on State in Madison, Wisconsin, in a sort of panic in between shows recording my podcast?
Marc:I'll tell you why.
Marc:Here's the deal.
Marc:Here's how this works.
Marc:I would have brought my equipment, but I didn't want to bring my equipment because I was going to be back yesterday on Sunday.
Marc:But the only direct flight flies out of Madison at like 320 in the afternoon.
Marc:Too many things in between me in Madison and me sitting at the mics in Los Angeles.
Marc:And I panicked, even though Brendan was like, it'll be fine.
Marc:You know, I'll be up.
Marc:And I'm like, I don't know, man.
Marc:It's one plane.
Marc:One shot at getting out.
Marc:What if I don't get out?
Marc:Then I'm going to have to scramble and find somebody with equipment, go to a radio station, you know, and stay here an extra night.
Marc:You know, it was just... This is the problem with my imagination, folks.
Marc:And it's an ongoing issue, all right?
Marc:Like, why can't I just think of good things?
Marc:Why does it always be so thoroughly specific when I'm filled with dread and panic?
Marc:Why?
Marc:But that being said...
Marc:I've been here in Madison for a few days.
Marc:The shows have been amazing.
Marc:This is by far one of the best comedy clubs in the country.
Marc:Dina Hashem opened for me.
Marc:She was amazing.
Marc:She flew in from New York.
Marc:And today, it's Saturday, that I'm recording this.
Marc:I just got done doing an episode, today's episode, if you want to go find it.
Marc:It was pretty funny.
Marc:Doug loves movies.
Marc:doug benson show i get this this dm on twitter from benson hey i'm gonna be in madison doing my show at 4 30 in the afternoon on saturday do you want to do it like he must know like he must know when he's going to places where he's got people that can do the show what how am i gonna turn the guy down what am i gonna say i'm busy at 4 30 in the afternoon on saturday in madison i'm just that's a bad time for me fucking of course
Marc:Of course I'm going to do the show.
Marc:And it was fun.
Marc:It was funny.
Marc:And I'm no good at those games, but we did the show.
Marc:And it's been good here, man.
Marc:It's been good in Madison.
Marc:It's a weird thing to be in towns, you know, where I've had a little bit more free space in my mind lately.
Marc:I'm reading this amazing book that's making –
Marc:blowing my mind, I finished Fantasyland, and now I'm reading an advanced press copy of it.
Marc:It came from something awful, which is basically the entire history of the 4chan phenomenon that helped to sort of propagate and spread the propaganda that propelled Trump into office.
Marc:It's basically the history of the army of unfuckable hate nerds, and I didn't know so much of that shit.
Marc:There's so much we don't know as grown people, you know, in this culture we live in.
Marc:Like, I don't, you know, I'm not, it's not that I'm not proficient.
Marc:It's just, it's not my second nature to be up to speed on.
Marc:I didn't even know what all those chans were.
Marc:2chan, 4chan, 8chan, didn't know it came from Japan, didn't know the sort of the unfolding of that, the Chan universe.
Marc:This isn't even Reddit, which I kind of know, but I don't spend any time on.
Marc:But just the sort of nihilistic, dark hive mind of the chans, I had no idea about it.
Marc:And oddly, as frightening as it is, it made me feel better to at least have a handle on what the fuck happened, what's going to continue happening, and where the conversation goes.
Marc:So it's enlightening.
Marc:It's not out yet, but I'll let you know when it comes out because those two books together, Fantasyland and It Came From Something Awful, are great companions if you want to just blow your mind with dark but honest factual reporting that not a lot of hope there, but at least understanding.
Marc:And sometimes that's the best you can hope for is a bit of understanding.
Marc:So I'm reading this book.
Marc:I'm reading this book about the army of unfuckable hate nerds.
Marc:And it's really, you know, and I've been a little hard on the nerds and like, I'm no jock, dude.
Marc:I'm just an old dude.
Marc:Yeah, I guess I'm a little snotty sometimes.
Marc:And I've been a little snotty to the nerds, you know, in relation to entertainment product.
Marc:In relation to Marvel movies and Game of Thrones, I've been a little snotty, though I am reframing that in a little more diplomatic way.
Marc:But I do know that maybe there's a crossover, obviously, between some of the nihilistic hate nerd army and the fantasy people.
Marc:But this book is really about...
Marc:that lifestyle of because of the Internet that you can kind of, you know, some of this, there's a generation of young people who were literally brought up by the Internet, brought up by each other and whatever influences and sort of horrible momentums occur on these chat boards or in these platforms.
Marc:And, you know, some of them are severely broken, lonely, angry, lost people, but they're not all bad.
Marc:And I don't want to come off as a guy who's punching down or a bully.
Marc:And I think about it, but I still have to separate in my mind.
Marc:I'm allowed to be culturally critical of things, but do I have to sort of generalize about the people that watch them?
Marc:And I think you can do that, but how is that not different than stereotyping to a certain degree?
Marc:So it's a delicate balance that I'm aware of.
Marc:And, you know, this stuff sort of haunts me a little bit sometimes.
Marc:And just by some karmic coincidence, at the hotel I'm staying at in Madison, there's this, I guess it's a yearly thing.
Marc:I didn't know anything about it.
Marc:And it's called WISCON.
Marc:And it's Women in Science Fiction, I think is what it stands for.
Marc:But it's obviously, you know, it's open to everybody.
Marc:But these are, you know, primarily like a lot of them.
Marc:There must have been a couple hundred movies.
Marc:you know, people who are involved in science fiction and fantasy.
Marc:And this is their little conference.
Marc:And, you know, the the the place was full of these.
Marc:They're they're they're sort of oddly special gifted people there.
Marc:You know, like I there is a way to characterize nerd culture.
Marc:There is a whole sort of massive bunch of communities.
Marc:of nerds who are going at it out there on the internet, in the chans, on the tumblers, all the stuff I don't really know about.
Marc:But it's huge, and a lot of it has to do with living in fantasy.
Marc:And they pull out sometimes.
Marc:They pull out to hang out in person and talk to each other and, I guess, share stories, have conferences, share art, and just share their humanity.
Marc:And I just never really – this is, I guess, a fault of my own – really thought about the women.
Marc:And there are a lot of them, and a lot of them were at my hotel, and it was just a – it was just –
Marc:Wild, a diverse sort of community of all kinds of people, all shapes, sizes, genders, hairs, you know, ages.
Marc:I mean, but they were all specifically on the fantasy spectrum.
Marc:I will say that fantasy spectrum, not the spectrum spectrum, though there's probably an argument to be made.
Marc:But I just it was just fascinating.
Marc:And being around them all made me giddy.
Marc:It was sort of elevating somehow.
Marc:There's an energy to it that I just I just rarely experience.
Marc:And it was very humanizing and very, I was happy for them.
Marc:And it made me giddy.
Marc:So power to you folks, to you fantasy people, primarily for getting out and engaging with each other in this sphere.
Marc:That's that's all I'll say.
Marc:That's all I'll say.
Marc:I don't want to mock it because I found it incredibly endearing and amazing and I had nothing to do with it.
Marc:And I just kept my head down and I just sort of sucked up some of that energy because it's intense, man.
Marc:So, okay, anyway, Timothy Oliphant is here, and we had a nice conversation.
Marc:He's a very nice guy, and I hope this sounds okay.
Marc:So this is, well, I hope what I'm doing right now sounds okay, because in my headset it's not great.
Marc:But right now this is me and Timothy Oliphant.
Marc:He's in Deadwood, the movie, premiering this Friday, May 31st on HBO.
Marc:He's a very nice guy.
Marc:Enjoy.
Marc:Lynn Sheldon just texted me a picture of you laying with the dead guy from Santa Clara.
Marc:Oh, there you go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, the director.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Lovely.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, with the fake dead guy.
Marc:Yeah, with the fake dead guy.
Marc:I didn't know that was the fake dead guy.
Marc:That's just a random thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's just a random thing.
Marc:And I got a picture of you on my phone with the fake dead guy.
Guest:Interesting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, I've seen that.
Marc:Things get around, man.
Guest:Yeah, it's a small world, as they say.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We didn't want to paint it.
Marc:I know those people who do.
Marc:I know Tracy Katsky.
Guest:Oh, there you go.
Guest:She seems to know everybody.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I went to a party with her once and she knew everybody and everybody in comedy.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:She was one of the gang back in the day when we were all starting out.
Guest:There you go.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:We had a gang.
Marc:Where was the gang in New York?
Marc:No.
Marc:It was here.
Marc:That gang was here.
Marc:That gang was here?
Marc:It kind of revolved around Largo, the old Largo on...
Guest:Yeah, she was telling me she and Silverman were- Yep, roommates.
Guest:I'm going to say Silverman, but Sarah Silverman, she and their roommates.
Marc:I remember that apartment.
Marc:Yeah, and that's an L.A.
Marc:apartment.
Marc:It was an L.A.
Marc:apartment, and it was Mary Lynn Rice Cub, Sarah Silverman, and Tracy Caskey, and the place looked like a fucking Montessori school.
Marc:There was guitars around, they were painting.
Marc:Now, were you in New York for a while, too?
Marc:Yeah, I was, yeah.
Marc:You were in New York in the 90s.
Marc:I was in New York in the 90s for sure.
Marc:Were you?
Marc:Yes, I was.
Guest:I feel like I have a vague memory of you there in the 90s.
Guest:Really?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Well, what's your arc?
Marc:Who was your crew that you started with?
Marc:Who were the guys you came up with?
Guest:I don't feel there was a crew.
Guest:I don't feel like I could ever claim such a thing.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I feel like I knew a few people.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I don't feel like I was- You were never part of a gang?
Guest:Well, there was sure, but that short-lived thing when I was at USC and I fell into a bad crowd there off campus.
Marc:Ooh, the bad crowd off campus.
Marc:That sounds promising.
Guest:Do the Crips and the Bloods enjoy when you joke that you were part of their gang once?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Is that something they're like, ah, that's funny.
Marc:Do you go by Tim?
Marc:Tim's good.
Marc:Yeah, but you choose to be called Timothy on the credits.
Guest:Well, it just started out that way.
Guest:I never got around to thinking past that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:It's a pretty dramatic name somehow, Timothy Oliphant.
Marc:Is that how you pronounce it?
Marc:No, it's not, but it's... Oliphant.
Marc:Oliphant.
Marc:Oliphant, like elephant.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:What kind of name is that?
Marc:Scottish.
Marc:And do you identify as Scottish?
Guest:As opposed to... Like mixed.
Marc:Like, you know, do you take pride in your Scottish roots?
Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, it's just there.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, it's just there.
Guest:You've never tracked it?
Guest:No, but my brother did.
Guest:And so I just said, oh, what do we got?
Marc:Yeah, what do you got?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:What did you get?
Guest:We got the big revelation, although this came earlier on, was there some...
Guest:Ashkenazi?
Marc:Ashkenazi?
Guest:Ashkenazi Jew.
Guest:You got some Jew in you.
Guest:Got some Ashkenazi Jew.
Guest:Yeah, I'm all that.
Marc:I think we're like... I'm 99.5% Ashkenazi Jew.
Guest:Yeah, I mean, I tried.
Guest:I tried as hard as I could, but I could only get about 15, I think.
Guest:Do you know who it was?
Guest:Who's the Jew?
Guest:On my mother's side, my grandfather, his family escaped.
Guest:They were Russian Jews.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, that's the Ashkenazis.
Marc:It was Eastern European Russian Jews.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:So it was on my mother's side.
Marc:So it's no small part.
Guest:No, I think my mother was like in the 23, 20, yeah, that was a big deal.
Guest:You didn't know that.
Guest:No, I remember when they found out, it was a big... It was like... I don't want to paint a bad picture.
Guest:It wasn't scandalous, but I do think it was a big deal for my mother and her.
Guest:Scandalous.
Guest:Get it out of me.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:How could this happen?
Guest:They're chewing me.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I think it was a big deal for my mom, my aunt, my uncle when they realized...
Guest:It's kind of hard to imagine how they... I just don't think it occurred to them was part of their equation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was a big deal for them when they found that out.
Marc:It's exciting.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know what you do with the information, but it's exciting to know what you're made of.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Where'd you grow up, though?
Guest:I grew up in Modesto, California.
Marc:Now wait, okay, so Modesto, I get confused with Bakerfield and Modesto.
Marc:Modesto's around here.
Guest:I like that you took the S off of Bakerfield.
Guest:You put it- Bakersfield.
Guest:Bakersfield.
Marc:You just keep going north.
Marc:Right, and Modesto's right around here, kind of.
Marc:No, further north.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Bakersfield's closer.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But Modesto's by the Bay Area?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Hour and a half.
Marc:But it's like cowboy land?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Like agriculture?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:I think I've met people from around there.
Marc:Like there was some, was it, was Creedence Clearwater from around there?
Marc:Yep.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:I'm getting it.
Marc:You are.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's a good thing to have.
Guest:My uncle has a great story.
Guest:My late uncle, God bless him.
Guest:He had a college band, Battle of the Bands with Creedence.
Guest:With CCR?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, they were then the Pollywogs.
Marc:Pollywogs.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:They played, yeah, that was his claim to fame.
Guest:They beat him in Battle of the Bands.
Guest:They beat him?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:They beat him.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A little shout out to the pineapples.
Marc:Yeah, the pineapples.
Marc:Was he the guitar player?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:College band.
Marc:And you knew him?
Marc:You knew your uncle?
Marc:Yeah, of course.
Marc:Did he stay playing?
Guest:He still loved to play, even though he didn't go down that road, still jammed it.
Guest:And they all got together a few years back, and we all played some tunes together again.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:But what was going on?
Marc:Why Modesto?
Marc:What was your old man in, your mom?
Guest:He worked for Gallo Wines.
Guest:Started with Del Monte.
Guest:I think he moved there for Del Monte and then went to work for Gallo.
Marc:So he was a food guy.
Guest:Modesto, well, yeah, well, he was in wine, Gallo Wine.
Guest:So, yeah, I guess he was in production.
Guest:On the production side.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:I think Del Monte brought us to Modesto and then went to work for Gallo.
Guest:Del Monte.
Guest:Del Monte.
Guest:Canned foods.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:Ketchups.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Del Monte ketchups.
Marc:Pineapples.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Pineapples.
Marc:Peaches.
Marc:Pineapples.
Marc:All this stuff.
Marc:I don't know.
Marc:Yeah, we were in- Did you have plenty of that at home?
Marc:Did it come home with your dinner?
Guest:I don't remember the Del Monte.
Guest:That was, I think, a very early chapter.
Marc:but i do think that was it played a part in modesto what'd your mom do she was uh raising us kids how many three huh yeah all boys all boys wow and you were just uh like i can't imagine i don't know like i have no like sense of what modesto's like so you weren't in your show business really same american graffiti yeah it was like that just uglier cars oh that's modesto oh yeah lucas was he shot that there
Guest:He shot it in Santa Rosa, a great part of it, but he grew up in Modesto.
Guest:So it was a movie about- Car culture.
Guest:Car culture.
Guest:Driving around.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Graffiti.
Marc:American graffiti.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We had American graffiti nights.
Guest:Oh, you did?
Guest:Once a year.
Guest:You got to grease up?
Guest:Wolfman Jack, everyone coming out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wolfman came?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:what's going on it started out as just a thing yeah and then it became very organized now i think you enter it's a big deal yeah it's still happening i think they still have graffiti nights in modesto don't quote me on this but the last i heard it still existed but now it's very um you know you can't just when i grew up we'd just anyone could just drive up and down the street that night we'd all go down with lawn chairs and we just hang out on the oh so they bring the the low riders and the old cars and stuff exactly yeah
Guest:cruise around and Chuck Berry come to town and play, you know, that kind of stuff.
Marc:It's so weird, dude.
Marc:I was thinking about that the other day about how, because I play music, but I was thinking about the music my dad liked, you know, and the music he played in the car and stuff, and it's gone.
Marc:Like, you know, there's not even oldie stations anymore.
Marc:Maybe on Sirius, I guess, but you start to think about that generation, they're gone.
Marc:So all that, that whole soundtrack, most people don't know those songs.
Marc:It's kind of weird, man.
Marc:My 15-year-old who's really into music knows a lot of that music.
Marc:Really?
Marc:All the way back, doo-wop shit?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Chuck Berry?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Little Richard?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it's quite fascinating how much it'll jump around when she takes over the playlist in the car.
Marc:Buddy Holly?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, she's aware of Buddy Holly.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:That gives me hope.
Guest:Well, it's a lot of times I think maybe I'm not even sure why other than she loves music.
Guest:But I think there is something about where, you know, you have these playlists now and the artists that inspire those.
Guest:You can sort of go pretty deep.
Marc:I guess that's right.
Guest:You can kind of go pretty deep.
Marc:So they have that era.
Guest:Yeah, you can get into anyone.
Guest:And it's very accessible to find out who inspired those artists.
Guest:People love to put together playlists.
Guest:The artists put together playlists.
Guest:So you can listen to Anderson .Paak.
Marc:Right.
Guest:You're really into Anderson .Paak.
Guest:And then see, oh, inspired by.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Or influenced by.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Or their influences.
Guest:So then all of a sudden you're like, whoever he listened to, you're listening to.
Marc:So you can open your mind.
Guest:Or you jam, like, you play, like...
Guest:Yeah, you go on iTunes and find, you know, oh, all the songs that Dr. Dre was into.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Half of it's all the songs he sampled, which is really old stuff.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And it just keeps going.
Marc:I guess that's true.
Marc:I guess I'm showing my old man-ness.
Guest:Look, I just know with my teenage, I mean, we're talking about teenagers, but I'm really surprised that every now and then you're like, are you playing Dionne Warwick?
Guest:What's going on?
Guest:Like, why are we playing this?
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:She's like, oh, yeah, I love this song.
Guest:It's great.
Guest:And I'm like, but why is it even in your repertoire?
Marc:And she tells you.
Guest:She's like, yeah, it's really great.
Marc:Yeah, they don't know where it happened in history necessarily, but they enjoy the music.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:So it all starts to, so that is one thing I find I sort of marvel at.
Marc:What'd you grow up with?
Marc:No, my son does not do that.
Marc:What's he up to?
Guest:He's just listening to this straight hip hop, just, you know, it's just, but we're not as proud of him as we are his sister.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:so for the record you got troubled kid as he gets out there in the world when people should you be listening to this you when you meet my son you think oh yeah this is that one the bad son yes the bad seed yeah yeah how many you got two we got three you got three so you did three
Guest:We did three.
Marc:Yeah, we did.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I thought two was plenty, but we went with the third.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:What would the third one come out?
Marc:Boy, girl?
Marc:Girl.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Two girls and a boy?
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:And the youngest is in her teens?
Marc:Teens.
Marc:Oh, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You got your hands full.
Marc:How old's the son?
Guest:Well, not really.
Marc:Not yet?
Guest:We're about done.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Good luck.
Guest:We're at that stage.
Guest:Take care.
Guest:Pat him on the ass and just say, go get him, champ.
Guest:Let us know if you need anything, but not too much.
Guest:Let us know if you need anything, exactly.
Guest:Don't get into trouble.
Guest:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Listen, here's our number, but your mom and I are going on a trip.
Marc:For the rest of your life.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So the kid, the boy's the oldest?
Marc:No, he's the middle.
Marc:All right.
Marc:So they're all, oh, wow.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you got colleges and all that stuff.
Marc:Yeah, no, that's all happening.
Marc:Do yourself a favor and don't pay anyone to get your kid into school.
Yeah.
Guest:You know, I swear, those kids went to school with my kid too.
Guest:Oh, Jesus.
Marc:Oh, man.
Guest:Hilarious.
Guest:Yeah, it's funny.
Guest:I got a kid in college on a tennis scholarship, and it never occurred to me that she never even had to play.
Guest:Fucked up.
Guest:We actually did the lessons and everything.
Guest:Really?
Guest:I just wasn't thinking creatively enough.
Guest:I just wasn't thinking creatively enough.
Guest:No, you're just kidding.
Marc:None of them are in college yet, are they?
Marc:Yeah, one in college, one on the way.
Marc:Okay, so what kind of music were you listening to?
Marc:Characterize your high school years.
Marc:Were you a metal guy?
Marc:Were you a country guy?
Guest:I've seen Judas Priest on more than one occasion.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was a tough, maybe about a decade or two ago, I really had to come to terms with, this is not good.
Guest:Just the music your whole life.
Guest:It really doesn't hold up.
Guest:It's really sad.
Guest:Which ones?
Guest:Name them.
Guest:I mean, they're all, but.
Marc:Def Leppard.
Guest:Yeah, it's just.
Marc:Judas Priest.
Guest:But the Priest, I still have a little soft spot for him.
Guest:Some of them I do dig.
Guest:Van Halen holds up.
Guest:Van Halen holds up in a little bit.
Marc:Yeah, ACDC forever.
Guest:Yeah, but see, those are kind of rooted in... A little bit more rooted in some blues and stuff.
Marc:Sure, you're just talking about the metal stuff.
Marc:Holds up a little better.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But, no, and look...
Guest:Even the some priest tunes, I feel like, I don't care what you say.
Guest:I stand by it.
Guest:It's solid.
Marc:How about Iron Maiden?
Guest:K.K.
Guest:Downing.
Guest:Glenn Tipton.
Guest:I'm a big fan.
Guest:uh iron maiden not so much i wasn't into them that much but um they were in there you know where it gets crazy is you know when you start throwing out when my buddies and i are hanging out yeah listening to y and t or uh no i don't even know what that is strong buddy yeah strong yeah i should pull it out y and t y and t yesterday and today they're still around nor cow band or uh little aldo nova uh-huh yeah
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I listened to Billy.
Guest:The other night I was texting my buddy from high school.
Guest:He said he was listening to a little Billy Squire.
Marc:Oh, yeah, sure.
Marc:And that one record.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:That one record.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:That was a big record.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I don't know what happened to that guy.
Guest:don't say no uh yeah it was cool um it was all right yeah lonely as a night it's solid dude yeah it was solid uh there's a lot that doesn't hold up because we were listening to all that uh you know they start to you go down the hair bands basically sure yeah well you're younger than me how old are you
Guest:No, I'm 50.
Marc:How old are you?
Guest:55.
Guest:No, well, you're right.
Guest:I am younger.
Marc:A little bit.
Guest:You're 50?
Guest:I'm 50.
Guest:You're looking good, man.
Guest:Holding up.
Guest:You know, I try to eat right and exercise.
Marc:You do, right?
Marc:Walking around without your shirt on.
Guest:I love that there was a follow-up.
Guest:No, but seriously, you do, don't you?
Marc:It takes a lot, man.
Marc:It takes a lot to look as good as you do at 50.
Marc:You're not going to just lay it off as a casual thing.
Marc:It's work.
Guest:It's work.
Guest:I appreciate it.
Guest:I think we're both doing all right.
Guest:Yeah, I think so.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But then there was some, I also fell into that sort of new wave thing.
Guest:So there was the concerts like, well, the police hold up, but if you go down the list of opening bands, Thompson Twins, who else is in there?
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:Oh, you know who was in that whole thing?
Marc:So it was like English Beat.
Marc:Oh, yeah, I like the English Beat.
Marc:I still listen to English Beat.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Just Can't Stop It, that record, Tears of a Clown.
Marc:Strong.
Marc:That's great.
Guest:The best stuff was more like the Elvis Costello and that sort of fun punk stuff that was happening there.
Marc:The pop punk stuff.
Guest:Yeah, it was really fun.
Guest:So listening to that, like... I still listen to that.
Guest:The Repo Man soundtrack, things like that.
Guest:Those were kind of... So there's some things you kind of go... It's funny you look back and see...
Marc:It defines us.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It makes us feel better.
Guest:It was a huge.
Guest:And were you like that?
Guest:We were all over the map.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:I feel like our friends, a bunch of us were all over the map.
Marc:Once I got older.
Guest:We were like metalhead guys and smoking section.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:At high school.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:By the way, our smoking section was in front of the school.
Guest:Like in the front, when the young kids were being dropped off, the freshmen were being dropped off by their mothers, there between the drop, getting out of that car, that Oldsmobile, and getting to the front of the, into the school, was a giant group of people in leather jackets and a huge cloud of smoke above them.
Marc:In my high school, I remember you could smoke anywhere outside in my recollection.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:We had a section.
Marc:I mean, there was, like, just the fact that we were in high school and they just let us fucking smoke was crazy.
Guest:Yeah, smoke.
Guest:It was crazy.
Guest:It was essentially in the parking lot.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It was like where you lock up your bikes and the parking lot and the flagpole.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:And there was just everyone out there smoking.
Guest:Yeah, I remember that- Skaters and rock, mostly rock people and Mexican gang kind of vibe.
Guest:Skater, yes.
Marc:Gator came in.
Marc:I grew up in New Mexico, so there was definitely a Chicano faction.
Marc:Yeah, we had a whole low rider.
Marc:Sure, yeah.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That's right.
Marc:Same with Española, New Mexico.
Marc:They'd come down.
Marc:There was a lot of low riders.
Guest:Yeah, no, and I used to... I loved to draw growing up, and then I was an art student in college, and so I...
Guest:That was sort of my connection with some of those lowrider guys.
Guest:They had really good art.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:So we'd hang out in art class together.
Guest:That's cool.
Guest:Yeah, because that lowrider culture of car culture and drawing.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Almost into tattoos almost.
Guest:Yeah, they love to do, I mean, there was like that thing of, I remember them teaching me like how to do the lettering where it looked like it was mirrored, like it looked like steel.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:You know what I mean?
Marc:Yeah, the 3D stuff?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Like it's car detailing stuff almost.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Yeah, no, like high school, I don't know what, I have no sense of it, but you have kids, it must be interesting to see that because there was definitely a distinction.
Marc:I, like you it sounds, could move freely throughout most of the clicks.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:I was not directly identified.
Guest:I wish I, I was jealous of guys, there was one or two guys I remember who could do it way more seamlessly than I could.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I wish I was that cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But I, you know, we were,
Guest:but I was able to do it a little bit.
Marc:You weren't a jock?
Guest:Well, I was a little bit of a jock, and then I was also the art guy, and I was a decent student, so I felt like I kind of had a foot in a little bit with everybody.
Guest:Right.
Guest:So I enjoyed my high school years.
Marc:I just can't believe it.
Guest:But there were certain guys that were just, I was like, wow, you really are that cool.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:I had a couple guys like that.
Marc:And looking back on it, I don't know how cool they were, but I think I thought they were cool.
Marc:Usually not jocks.
Guest:I remember a guy I went to high school with who was a really talented artist.
Guest:So talented.
Guest:And then kind of a druggie, but not a deadbeat, but able to just go in and out of the two, three worlds.
Marc:But he had a thing he did that you were impressed with.
Marc:He was just cool.
Marc:Yeah, those guys.
Guest:He could come hang out with us.
Guest:He'd go hang out with the druggies.
Guest:He'd go hang out with skateboarders.
Guest:He did, he and I, he more than me, but I used to, my end with some of the skateboarders was I'd go to the skateboard ramps and paint on the ramps.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, you'd go, you know, come out and.
Marc:You were the guy who painted on the ramps?
Marc:Painted on the ramps.
Marc:What'd you paint on ramps?
Guest:You know, just anything that seemed kind of... Were you a graffiti guy?
Guest:It could be.
Guest:I guess we did use spray paint and stuff.
Guest:Yeah, we used spray paint.
Guest:But it was more just because you could draw.
Marc:I feel like skate culture came a little after me.
Marc:You know, like I just missed it.
Marc:It was just starting by the time I got out of high school.
Marc:I graduated high school in 81.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So it wasn't quite.
Guest:You guys weren't out stealing plywood from construction sites?
Marc:No, but it happened.
Marc:Skateboard ramps?
Marc:It happened with my brother.
Marc:Like they were starting to do that.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Pools.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, that whole thing.
Marc:I was never that much of a risk taker in terms of, I just couldn't get a hold of it.
Marc:Did you skate?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Enough to kind of be able to hang around.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you couldn't compete necessarily.
Marc:No, no, no, no.
Marc:You had the skateboard.
Guest:You had the spray paint, but you couldn't- Yeah, I could go up and down the- I could get up, but I wasn't doing anything once I got up there other than just-
Guest:They're holding on.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I skated, you know, around.
Guest:We skated around, skated in college.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Went to class.
Marc:I was just in San Diego, dude.
Marc:There's 50-year-old dudes skating around.
Marc:Everyone's skating around.
Marc:Yeah, it's crazy.
Marc:It's like, you're going to break, dude.
Marc:You break a ball.
Guest:I went up to see my kid at UC Santa Barbara the other day, playing a tennis thing, and they got a skateboard lane.
Guest:I've never seen so many girls on skateboards.
Marc:Well, now they got the scooter thing, too, that you just pick up on the street.
Marc:You can just grab a scooter.
Marc:Yeah, I do that.
Marc:I love those things.
Marc:Really?
Marc:They got them where you live?
Marc:Yeah, I love them.
Marc:I don't see them around here.
Marc:Maybe they'll come in time.
Marc:All right, so you're in high school.
Marc:You're kind of a jock.
Marc:What's your sport?
Marc:I was a swimmer growing up.
Guest:Yeah, swam.
Guest:What was your stroke?
Guest:I was IM, so I did a little bit of everything.
Marc:Oh, and you, oh, the medley?
Marc:Yeah, exactly.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:I am individual medley.
Guest:I didn't.
Guest:I swam.
Marc:Did you swim?
Marc:Yeah, but not in high school.
Marc:I was in a swim club that competed, but I was never that good.
Marc:In Mexico?
Marc:Yeah, I had a B-time and breaststroke.
Marc:That's the best I could do.
Marc:A B-time and breaststroke.
Marc:Breaststroke, I could handle.
Marc:Butterfly, not so much.
Marc:Backstroke, I always turned over before I hit the edge.
Marc:And that's it?
Guest:And not in high school?
Marc:No, I didn't do any sports in high school.
Marc:Drugs?
Marc:No, no.
Marc:I was more of an art department kid.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Yeah, I was not a job.
Guest:Wait, we have this in common.
Marc:Yeah, but I was photography.
Guest:photography yeah i did photography so like you didn't do any sport i i felt like most people who were decent at swimming just swam in high school because no i was not good i was not good enough at it so you had to do really i thought high school teams all suck yeah but i was not competitive i just couldn't handle it man so does that mean you had to do pe in high school i can't remember showing up for it really yeah
Marc:I have no recollection of PE.
Guest:Should I circle back to the drugs question?
Marc:No, I wasn't druggy until later.
Marc:Until later.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I dabbled in high school.
Marc:Late bloomer.
Marc:Yeah, I dabbled in high school, but like college is where the drugs.
Marc:And then photography.
Marc:Photography I was very into.
Marc:Photography and writing and, you know, just, but I was more sort of like, you know, just trying to have friends.
Marc:Just trying to hang out.
Marc:Drinking beers.
Marc:We got our driver's license at 15.
Marc:So we were out waiting in front of liquor stores at 15.
Marc:Hey dude, get us a six pack, you know.
Marc:There was that whole thing.
Guest:And did you, we were part of that, and this is the American Graffiti reference, we were, you know, we are those guys who threw like a dummy in the middle of the road and gift wrapped a cinder block, you know, during the holidays.
Marc:We did worse shit, kind of.
Guest:Worse shit, kind of.
Marc:There was a brief period there where we had a CO2-powered pellet gun.
Marc:Oh.
Marc:And we were shooting out windows.
Marc:Shooting out windows.
Marc:Because the sound of a windshield going.
Marc:That's just good, wholesome fun.
Marc:Man.
Marc:That's just good, wholesome fun.
Guest:It's another time, isn't it?
Marc:Yeah, we used to go to the parking lot of the mall and we'd put shopping carts in front of our cars and get them going about 50 miles.
Marc:And then let them go.
Marc:Just watch them destroy themselves.
Guest:We did ice blocking.
Guest:We used to go ice blocking.
Guest:We'd go get blocks of ice in the middle of the night and go out to the golf course and slide down the hills on blocks of ice.
Marc:That seems a little less destructive.
Guest:Well, it's not good for the golf course.
Marc:Oh, really?
Marc:Fucks it up?
Guest:Yeah, but we do that and we drink and hang out in the middle of the night until the golf course cop shows up.
Marc:That guy.
Guest:And then you try to get him to chase you.
Guest:And then you circle back and you try to steal that light.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, because you steal that light and then you get it in your car and now you drive up and down McHenry and you put that spotlight on people's cars and they think the cops- There you go, stealing the light.
Marc:Good times.
Marc:That is good times.
Marc:Good times.
Marc:It is driving culture, though.
Marc:I remember there was always that sort of cruising certain areas, driving around.
Guest:Yeah, take the fire extinguisher, go out, ask people for directions, and hit them.
Marc:Oh, that's good times.
Marc:Good times.
Marc:It's all fun until someone has a real gun.
Marc:You can't do any of this anymore.
Marc:Yeah, there's some real guns around.
Marc:Did you have real guns at Modesto?
Guest:Well, we, I remember, no, I don't remember any guys, no guns at school, no guns.
Marc:Yeah, I saw some guns around here.
Guest:No, I mean, I remember guys who ended up in, guys who went to school ended up in prison, so I know it went further south.
Marc:For them?
Marc:A lot of fights.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:A lot of fights.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Parties, keg parties, fights.
Marc:Sure, keg parties, destroying someone's house.
Yeah.
Marc:exactly exactly and there's that place up in the mountains where that someone would bring a keg and we went to orchards and canals oh nice yeah so what party at the orchards what was the art thing that was the first passion that was the that was what you're into well i just stumbled upon i mean i drew growing up and then um uh where'd you get inspired to do that was somebody was there a role model for that i mean that made you you just dug it
Guest:I did, although my dad is very good at drawing.
Guest:He really liked to draw, as I recall.
Marc:I used to do some of that.
Guest:There's a bunch of people in the family that were good at drawing.
Guest:My grandfather had this amazing painting up in his house that he did when he was a kid.
Guest:So I know there's a lot of talented art people.
Marc:You used to do?
Marc:I did, I drew.
Marc:My mother was a painter, so I grew up with art.
Marc:But I remember I drew a picture, a portrait of John Lennon that won some awards.
Marc:So I guess I was more broadly art department, but I didn't take classes.
Marc:I only took one sort of art class, but I did enter stuff into competitions, drawings and stuff, photography, yeah.
Marc:Did you go to college?
Marc:I did.
Marc:And studied?
Marc:English literature, film.
Guest:I haven't.
Guest:You didn't go into art.
Guest:Oh, well, you were writing as well.
Marc:Yeah, I don't know what I was doing.
Marc:Like the drawing thing...
Marc:If I locked in, I could do it.
Marc:And I did it for a while, but then it was like, not unlike photography, is this going to be my life?
Marc:I wanted to learn a lot of other stuff.
Marc:I wasn't thinking in terms of what I was going to do with my life.
Marc:So did you actually pursue it into college?
Guest:I studied, yeah, I was a fine art major in college.
Guest:Where?
Guest:At USC.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Did you have it down the street?
Guest:For those of you listening.
Marc:That's a good school.
Guest:It's just over my shoulder to the right.
Marc:You can see it right down the street.
Marc:Right down the street.
Marc:Did you have to submit a portfolio to get in?
Guest:No.
Guest:USC did not have to submit a portfolio.
Guest:A few other schools I did have to submit, but I went to USC because I swam.
Guest:I knew I was going somewhere where I could swim and...
Guest:I stumbled across it, really.
Guest:I went to USC on a recruit trip, and I flew out, and I had this in my head that I might want to be an architecture student.
Marc:That's a good application.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So I went to go meet with the dean of the architecture school, and he immediately told me I couldn't be on the swim team and still be an architecture student.
Guest:It was just an impossible task.
Guest:And I asked him, I said, to get upstairs to the architecture school.
Guest:I was like, there was down below what looked like an art gallery and what I thought looked like ceramics.
Guest:And he said, yeah, that's the art department.
Yeah.
Guest:Now, I know memory's not a reliable narrator.
Guest:What I recall saying was, get the fuck out.
Guest:You can get a degree in that?
Guest:And he's like, yeah, there's a Bachelor of Fine Arts.
Guest:And I was like...
Guest:Can I go talk to them?
Guest:He said, sure.
Guest:And he walked me down.
Guest:He introduced me to the dean of the art department.
Guest:And I said, listen, I'm here.
Guest:You know, my intention would be to swim for the school.
Guest:Could I be on the swim team and also study art?
Guest:And they said, yeah, we could work around it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:And so I went home and...
Guest:Mom, Dad.
Marc:I'm going to be an artist.
Guest:Can you believe this?
Guest:Well, first I felt like, again, my recollection is I came home and said, you're not going to believe this.
Guest:You can get a degree in art.
Guest:You can get a college degree.
Guest:And they said, yeah.
Guest:And I said, wait, you'll let me, you know, I can do that?
Guest:And they said, sure.
Marc:Wow, that's nice of them.
Guest:And I was like, oh, my God.
Guest:I went and dropped out of math that day.
Guest:I had already satisfied the requirements.
Guest:Started going home early every day after that.
Marc:So were you just doing it to swag off, or were you doing it?
Guest:No, no, I was like genuinely, like, this was mind-blowing.
Marc:Did you study art history and all that stuff?
Guest:Yeah, I was a BFA, you know, studio art.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was all in.
Guest:I slid the chips all the way in.
Guest:I loved it.
Guest:Did you paint?
Guest:Painted.
Guest:I was not very good at painting.
Guest:Color paint was a real challenge.
Guest:Loved drawing, loved pencil drawing, loved anything pretty simple and immediate.
Guest:I mean, I eventually did four years.
Guest:I did a lot of painting, but my paintings became more like drawings than paintings.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:It was like painting with acrylic, essentially.
Guest:I mean, drawing with acrylic, in a way.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I loved sculpture.
Marc:Yeah?
Marc:I loved it.
Marc:Do you have some of your sculptures still?
Guest:I don't have a single, no, not a single one.
Guest:What were you working with?
Guest:I did a ton of ceramics.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I did, you know, you got to, you know, BFA major.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:It's not like this everywhere.
Guest:But, you know, it's pretty well-rounded there.
Guest:So you're doing a ton.
Guest:You know, you have to take certain requirements before you sort of lock in during your senior year.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then by your senior year, you're kind of doing whatever you want.
Marc:And you don't have any of the work?
Guest:I have all my pencil drawings.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I have all my drawings.
Guest:Wow.
Guest:I have a great deal of my drawings.
Guest:I didn't keep anything, just practical.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:What am I going to do with these fucking- Sculptures.
Guest:I'm going to haul ceramic sculptures around.
Guest:Were they just- In my 20s when I go from, you know, move to New York and move there.
Marc:But I mean, were they free form?
Marc:Were they abstract?
Guest:Or were they figurative?
Guest:I did this.
Guest:My senior exhibition was a series of pencil drawings and ceramic sculptures.
Guest:And the ceramic sculptures were on the floor and pencil drawings were around the gallery.
Guest:And they were...
Guest:You know those sort of things you see on the side of buildings, those classic ocean drawings where you're split level.
Guest:You're seeing above the ocean, below the ocean.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:The whales kind of like emerging.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It was like this surreal take on those things.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Where there was these – there was a –
Guest:there was a line, all the drawings were different sizes, but the continuing line of the ocean ran through them all.
Guest:And it was always above and below, different degrees of that.
Guest:And the below had all these odd rock formations at times that looked almost figurative looking.
Guest:The ceramic sculptures reflected, mirrored those rock formations.
Marc:Wow, man.
Marc:You had full concept.
Guest:It was cool.
Guest:Yeah?
Guest:I mean, I remember it.
Guest:I'm very proud of it.
Guest:Do you have photo documentation?
Guest:Oh, sure.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:Do you do slides?
Guest:Yeah, no, I was in.
Guest:I was on my way to... I was exploring, you know, getting a master's going on.
Guest:Yeah, I had every intention to continue studying.
Marc:A life in the arts?
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:That was my... So how'd you get derailed, man?
Guest:You know, you take a beat and you got a little time, you're enjoying yourself and you think, you know, I might give this a shot, I might give this a shot.
Guest:If I'm going to try it, you should try it now.
Guest:Try to put off the midlife crisis, you know, and just give it, you know, I tried to do...
Guest:I did everything.
Guest:I did stand-up for a few months and a year or two.
Guest:No, really?
Guest:I feel like you were there.
Guest:Not that I expect you to remember me.
Guest:I mean, I remember you.
Guest:Because you were in New York in the 90s.
Marc:Yeah, I definitely was.
Guest:At Boston.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, no, that's where I was.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:I swear to God.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I'll tell you.
Guest:The Boston Comedy Club.
Guest:I think we were part of a, what did you say?
Guest:A gang.
Guest:A gang?
Guest:I think we were in the same gang.
Guest:No.
Guest:So this would be 90...
Guest:92, 91, 92, 93?
Marc:Definitely there.
Marc:I mean, I went to San Francisco in 92 for a couple years, but you might have just caught me.
Marc:I kind of hit the wall in New York, but I was definitely at the Boston.
Guest:You hit the wall in New York.
Guest:That feels like that deserves a better, more explanation.
Marc:I couldn't get into the bigger clubs, you know, and I, you know, I, you know, I was trying to stay sober and then I wasn't.
Marc:And then it's like, I couldn't get in at the cellar.
Marc:I couldn't get in a catch.
Marc:I was only working like Boston comedy club and the improv, the old improv.
Guest:See, you were there.
Guest:I was there doing open mic.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:On Mondays.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And so here, this is the gang.
Guest:So I used to spend some time with, uh, I remember running around with Jay Moore.
Guest:I remember, I remember meeting Sarah Silverman.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:She was doing open mic around that time as well.
Guest:Sure, yeah.
Guest:And Dave Attell was hosting.
Guest:At the Cellar?
Guest:Or no, at Boston, sure, yeah.
Guest:And Louis was hosting.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then people, yeah, I remember all of it.
Guest:I remember sitting on that back booth.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I remember before they built that back platform, like when it was just a flat room with shitty tables, and then they built that booth.
Guest:Oh, that's before.
Guest:I don't remember a non-platform.
Guest:And then Barry Katz.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:you really were in it never had two words meant so much he paid for i i did that thing i i passed out the flyers and out front you know out front and he would give me gave me time and um i'd work it up and then he had some club on the upper east side upper west side there but columbia there for right the west end or yeah i remember going up there yeah so you were doing it i was doing it yeah that was the fuck
Guest:yeah that's what i thought i thought what the fuck am i doing i gotta get out of this no but i mean like what's let me track this so you get out of your fine arts day you got your undergraduate fine arts degree and then you're like i'm moving to new york my in my senior year yeah well so my my wife and i um we met in college so uh she had family in new york so we just went to new york as soon as we got out of school just to kind of go visit yeah
Guest:Early 90s.
Guest:Early 90s.
Guest:So, yeah, this is like 90, 91.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And didn't know what we were doing or what we wanted to do.
Guest:We were both, you know, it's after college trying to figure it out.
Guest:But I had a, and we went back and forth once there.
Guest:And...
Guest:I kind of had this jumping around a little bit in order.
Guest:One, towards the end of my, I felt like my senior year and right when I got out, I had this idea that, well, anything you think of, just take a crack at it, just so you know.
Marc:Yeah, creatively, why not?
Guest:Yeah, just take a crack at it.
Guest:So I was like, you know, I've always wanted to try this.
Guest:So get up and do it.
Guest:Put it together.
Marc:How were you?
Guest:You know, it came the first... I think somewhat unusual, but I think maybe... Because I'd always heard, like, you're just gonna bomb.
Guest:You're just gonna bomb for a while.
Guest:I felt like I had a couple shows right out of the gate that you're like...
Guest:this is easy this is great and then the bombing started right right and then it then it they're like oh but you're writing jokes I was writing jokes yeah writing jokes and uh yeah no I had this whole thing like I thought you know oh I I'm a big Steve Martin fan and he's in the art world and I just felt like oh that's a you know were you doing oddball stuff
Guest:Yeah, I'd come out and I'd start singing If You Love Me and You Know It, Clap Your Hands.
Guest:It would be like the first word out of my mouth.
Guest:I'd just start singing that.
Marc:Just to get that audience participation.
Guest:Well, it didn't matter even if they were dead.
Guest:I responded the same no matter what.
Guest:I would just go, thank you.
Guest:And I would just continue singing it with unabandoned enthusiasm no matter what the response was.
Guest:And I thought it was conceptually awesome.
Guest:Just get right to it.
Guest:Let's just get right to it.
Guest:I just want to know now.
Guest:Who loves me out there?
Guest:I've given you nothing, but I just want to cut to it.
Guest:So that was, I remember.
Guest:Solid.
Guest:I remember.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:I appreciate the compliment.
Guest:I'll take it as a genuine.
Guest:I did.
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I felt like.
Guest:I felt like I had one smart joke about art and pornography, about the difference between the two.
Guest:It was a ripoff of a quote from...
Guest:who was the artist someone had because it was in the height of you know well i guess it's just the end of the 80s you know the art and pornography jesse helms that whole thing and there was an artist who had a really long-winded quote about the um about uh the purpose of pornography uh-huh in one of those trials and it was all about wasn't zappa
Guest:No, it was one of the artists.
Guest:It was like, if it wasn't Mapplethorpe or someone like that, this is the purpose of pornography.
Guest:It's simply to do this, titillate and blah, blah, blah.
Guest:But it was very well-spoken.
Guest:And then I just added, and then if in addition to that, it matches your furniture.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The art.
Guest:That makes it art.
Guest:That makes it art, yeah.
Guest:That's smart.
Guest:And I thought that was the closest thing I came to a smart joke.
Marc:Then you go back into a, if you're happy and you know it.
Guest:And then I just did, you know.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:amc hammer you know impression i don't want to touch this yeah you know you did it you did some i felt like everyone did uh it was like that touches can't touch that i don't want to touch it i never wanted to touch it why does he keep thinking i don't want to touch it you did that was just that stuff it's just like that's well they'll just well that's a placeholder till i come up with something else smart so when did you know that that was not the life for you
Guest:So I thought two things.
Guest:One, my wife and I... First of all, I saw right off the bat, oh, that's a tough schedule.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:You're just up all night.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're just up all night.
Guest:Running around.
Guest:It's awful.
Guest:I also thought...
Guest:I thought a couple things in no particular order.
Guest:One, there's a curse.
Guest:It's a similar curse to, I imagine, other professions.
Guest:Acting has one, but maybe it's... There's a curse of where every conversation you start to have, you think, oh, that's a bit.
Marc:Oh, yeah, of course.
Guest:And I was really scared to death of that, where I felt like...
Marc:You're completely consumed.
Marc:Every conversation you had, you got to write it down.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Yeah, good one.
Guest:And forgive me also, hanging out with comics, not the most fun.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah, no, I felt like- A rough crowd.
Guest:Well, it's just a lot of that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It's a lot of- Do you think this is funny?
Guest:Oh, no, no.
Guest:Yeah, that's mine.
Marc:Yeah, that's mine.
Marc:That's mine.
Marc:There's a lot of that.
Marc:I remember that.
Marc:You have a conversation with somebody, are you going to use that?
Marc:You're going to use that?
Guest:Because I'm going to use it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:No, I think Marc Maron already said he was going to use it.
Marc:No, he said it yesterday.
Marc:He's already doing something like that.
Guest:I said that was mine.
Guest:No, we talked about it on Monday.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And then you both do it.
Guest:Oh, Jesus.
Guest:So I just thought... Well, first of all, I was probably scared to death of any type of success at any level.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, a little bit.
Guest:And then I also think that...
Guest:Stand-up comedy and acting.
Guest:Success comes with so much baggage.
Guest:It's not success in a lot of other fields.
Guest:There's just so much else that's coming with it.
Guest:I was scared to death of it.
Guest:I was scared to death of, like, even if I become mediocre at this.
Guest:There's a chance I could...
Guest:I could see myself like, oh, you could get a sitcom.
Guest:You know, you start to have those conversations.
Guest:Yeah, he's like this, he's likable.
Guest:Sitcom.
Guest:And I'd be like, I felt like...
Guest:I felt like I saw a future where only a few years had passed and I was on a sitcom making a lot of money and had no skills whatsoever.
Guest:Practical skills, you mean, or acting skills?
Guest:Meaning I could see myself becoming successful in that world and not actually be good at what I'm doing.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Oh, interesting.
Guest:That's kind of scared the shit out of me.
Marc:That's interesting.
Marc:So the fear was, like, I could do comedy.
Marc:I might not get very good at it.
Marc:I won't be good at comedy.
Marc:And I'll get opportunities from it.
Guest:And I'll get acting opportunities.
Guest:And I won't be good at that.
Guest:And I'll be done.
Guest:This will all be over before I'm 30.
Guest:I'll be like one of those guys where I'm late 20s, and it's done.
Guest:It's already done, and I'm actually not good at what I'm doing.
Guest:So from there you said, I'm going to learn how to act.
Marc:I said, I'm going to take some classes.
Guest:And I think I also probably saw that just, you know...
Marc:It's a rough life.
Guest:It's a rough life.
Guest:And I thought I was really worried that I was like, wow, it's going to be a very narrow.
Guest:And I thought, well, I think you start to see like, well, there's these there's this other group of people that I feel maybe it's a little bit more in my ballpark where.
Guest:You learn this craft and then you can kind of put your toe in over here and you put your toe in over there.
Guest:You go do drama, you go do this.
Marc:Well, yeah, but that's interesting because you wanted to have some sort of skill set.
Marc:Like with comedy, the other part of comedy is if you do get a few minutes together, you can get seen, which is hard in acting.
Guest:Yes, and I guess at the end of the day, I didn't want to be a comic to become an actor.
Marc:Oh, yeah, that's nice of you.
Marc:We resent those guys.
Guest:No, I love stand-up, and I felt like if I was going to be a stand-up, I was like, I want to be a stand-up.
Guest:I want to be those people that that's what you do.
Guest:I like people.
Guest:I have a lot of heroes in various professions where what they do is what they do, and they do it until they're 80.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:And they love doing it.
Marc:Right, for life.
Guest:And I think that I respect and love and admire stand-up comics, but I don't think that that's something I thought, oh, that's something I want to do until I'm 80.
Marc:So where'd you take classes?
Marc:Where'd you start?
Guest:And then I went and studied with the late Bill Esper, who just passed away.
Guest:I've heard him, yeah.
Guest:What was that school?
Guest:The William Esper Studios.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He at the time was running Rutgers school acting program out at the university.
Guest:And then he had his studio in New York.
Guest:And I went and knocked on his door and said, you know, I want to take acting classes.
Marc:He's a guy, like I've heard him, I can't remember who, but he's come up several times.
Guest:A lovely, wonderful guy, just as good as they come, just a class guy.
Guest:And you loved it?
Guest:Remained close with him over the years, yeah, until he passed away just shortly.
Marc:Not long ago?
Marc:How old?
Guest:He's old, right?
Guest:Yeah, but I saw him just a year or so ago.
Guest:Whenever I'd go to New York, I'd go see him, check in with him.
Marc:He was the guy, changed your life.
Guest:He really did, yeah, in more ways than one.
Guest:Just a great guy.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, lovely guy.
Marc:So what did you learn?
Marc:What did you do?
Marc:Did you have to get into it?
Guest:Well, acting-wise, I didn't immediately go into his class.
Guest:I showed up.
Guest:I knocked on the door.
Guest:I said, you know, I'm here.
Guest:I want to take classes.
Guest:I have no experience.
Guest:I've never been in a play.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I've never been in a high school play.
Guest:I was an art student, but, you know.
Guest:I took a class as an elective.
Guest:I owed a degree and I could take anything.
Guest:And I took an acting 101.
Marc:At USC?
Guest:I actually took it through UC Irvine.
Guest:And I was like, this is a blast.
Guest:And I ran it by my wife.
Guest:I said, you know, I might want to do this.
Guest:What do you think?
Guest:And she's like, Tim, just do something.
Guest:Jesus, just do it.
Guest:And he stayed with the same wife for all this time.
Guest:Yeah, no.
Guest:Pretty good.
Guest:Sorry this afternoon we woke up in the same bed together.
Marc:Did your parents stay together?
Guest:No.
Marc:Well, good.
Marc:Good that you went the other way.
Marc:You locked in.
Marc:Good.
Marc:I locked in.
Marc:So Esper is like, you know, he took you in and that was that.
Marc:And you started doing it.
Guest:Took me in.
Guest:I took my first year.
Guest:I studied with a man named Joel Rooks.
Guest:And then Joel only taught first year.
Guest:And then I went into Bill's class the second year.
Guest:It's a Meisner program.
Guest:It's, you know, it's, I don't know if you're that familiar.
Marc:Yeah, we talk about it.
Marc:I tend to talk to actors about acting because I'm acting now.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Well, yeah.
Marc:I'm doing some acting.
Marc:And it's my class.
Marc:How is it?
Marc:It's good.
Marc:I'm doing all right.
Marc:But there's some things that, like, my expectations are weird, though, in terms of craft.
Marc:Like, I feel that, like, I'm not going deep enough.
Marc:And I don't give myself credit for just being who I am.
Marc:And it's going to come out anyways.
Marc:But I always feel like, shouldn't I be losing myself?
Marc:Shouldn't I, you know, like, you know, and then you start to realize, no, you talk to people like Jeff Daniels.
Marc:It's like, you know, just know your face.
Marc:Understand how your face works for those shots.
Marc:There's a million ways to come around it.
Marc:And there's only a rare couple people that actually physically or completely transform into other humans.
Marc:Everyone else is just pretending.
Guest:No, I think everyone's pretending.
Guest:I don't know about... I don't know if even those people are... I don't know about... They got me fooled?
Guest:You know, what are they doing?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I mean, in the end of the day, they're just playing dress-up and saying the lines of people told them to say.
Marc:But you... It was a long time before you really broke in a way, right?
Marc:I mean... Well, you worked...
Guest:Yeah, you know, I was a one-step-forward, two-steps-back kind of deal.
Marc:Yeah?
Guest:Yeah, you know, so you'd have a big thing, and then I'd say, Jesus, whoa.
Marc:Did you do... Slow up, everybody.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Oh, yeah, it's good.
Guest:Did you start with theater?
Guest:I did some theater in New York, started out, and then... Yeah, but I got... I was... After I went and studied in New York, and I studied for two years, and I was...
Guest:Best of both worlds, probably.
Guest:I had success right out of the gate.
Marc:On television?
Guest:Both, yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah, right out of the bat.
Guest:You know, I just got first year.
Guest:Got a good look.
Guest:That's why you got a good look, fella.
Guest:Well...
Guest:You fit on screen.
Guest:You fit on screen.
Guest:Everybody fits on screen.
Guest:You just got to find where you kind of fit in, I guess.
Marc:Were you conscious of that?
Marc:Which part?
Marc:That you had to find where you fit in?
Guest:I mean, it seems like you did a lot of... That took me a while, but yeah, you kind of figure out... That took me a long time.
Guest:I mean, to some degree.
Guest:It took me a long, long time to be like, no, no, no, that's not what I do.
Guest:I don't fit in there.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's not a good...
Marc:And you were in that movie.
Guest:Knowing how to cast yourself is probably a pretty good skill to have.
Marc:But you were in that big movie with Jay Moore.
Guest:So that was early on.
Guest:That was late 90s, yeah.
Guest:That was a big movie.
Marc:So see, that's sort of the generation you come from.
Guest:I mean, guys, when I was starting out in New York, the people that... So Ethan Hawke and Mark Ruffalo, and I was just enamored by them.
Guest:That was the gang.
Guest:So that whole...
Guest:Same generation, but they were all working because I didn't start till my 20s.
Guest:So when I got there, there were a lot of people already in their 20s that were well on their way.
Guest:And, you know, I met them along the way.
Guest:So I knew all those people, but it took me years and years and years to sort of be part of that conversation.
Marc:Right.
Marc:And when you say two steps forward, one step back, I mean, what like what were the moments where you had a real something in or you had to make different choices?
Marc:Like how far did that fear of success take you?
Guest:Oh, it took forever.
Guest:I mean, I felt like it took forever.
Guest:I think it was terrifying, you know.
Guest:So, like a movie like Go, you just felt like, Jesus Christ, we're about to be shot out of a cannon.
Marc:Right.
Guest:And you follow it up with something that, like, no one's going to see this.
Marc:And you know that.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I don't know how conscious I was along the way, but looking back, you're like, what were you thinking?
Guest:I've even seen things that I was in right around that time within a few years of that.
Marc:Like the Broken Hearts Club?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I was like, who's going to go see this movie about a bunch of gay guys in West Hollywood?
Marc:Guess what?
Marc:No one went to see it?
Guest:No.
Guest:And then there were opportunities during that time that were clearly huge opportunities.
Guest:And I was like, no way.
Guest:No way.
Marc:You didn't do them?
Guest:Well, some I just wouldn't do.
Marc:But you went with Rockstar, which was another.
Guest:But then, you see, it's one of these things.
Guest:After a certain point, you're like...
Guest:Okay, so two things are happening a lot of times.
Guest:One, you're either passing on huge opportunities because you're just like, this is stupid, and I'm going to be famous for something stupid, and that's what you've convinced yourself of.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:Who gives a shit?
Marc:No one does that anymore.
Guest:Well, what was I even thinking?
Guest:I should have been famous for something stupid.
Guest:You can figure it out as you go.
Marc:Work from there.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Or I would just really fuck up a great opportunity like an audition.
Guest:I felt like I would get really tight at opportunities where you're like, God,
Guest:what was wrong with you?
Guest:That's a perfect part for you.
Guest:You should have fucking blew it.
Guest:And you blew it.
Guest:Just got, you know, just nervous.
Marc:Are there movies that you regret turning down?
Guest:No.
Guest:Not that I can think of.
Marc:No.
Guest:No.
Guest:Because usually the ones that you turn down, there's none that I've turned down that you're like, oh my God, what a great movie.
Guest:Right.
Guest:Most of them I haven't even seen.
Marc:You've done a lot of movies, dude.
Guest:But see, then what happens is, this is the joke I remember doing, is that then you end up basically taking apart a small part for less money in an equally stupid film that you're like, what's the point of this?
Guest:Why pass on the lead role in that film to end up being a supporting role in that guy's film, next film, who's now a huge fucking movie star because he did the dumb one
Guest:And so now you're broke and you're in shitty movies because you need the work.
Guest:So you're like, this is not working out.
Guest:This plan, we got to change this.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, you made some mistakes.
Guest:I don't know if they're mistakes or not.
Guest:They're just, they are what they are.
Guest:It was part of the trip.
Guest:I got lucky in a way.
Guest:I never had to deal with any, I never had to deal with, I've never had to deal with any of the, um, failing on a big, on a big scale.
Marc:Or success on a big scale.
Marc:Right.
Guest:I've never had to deal with that.
Guest:I'm the same way.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:You just keep pushing, and at some point you realize, well, there's no turning back now, so I'm going to have to figure it out.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:I have no other skills.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:Exactly.
Marc:And then you just hope for the best.
Guest:You're like, well, honey, if this doesn't work out, there's always those ceramic sculptures.
Marc:What did I do with those?
Marc:Oh, fuck.
Marc:God damn it.
Marc:I threw them away.
Marc:I didn't have room for them.
Marc:Maybe I can redo it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So that's sort of fascinating to me in that after years, really, what really put you on the radar was Deadwood, right?
Yeah.
Guest:I mean, it certainly helped along the way.
Guest:I don't feel like there was ever one thing that... I don't feel like that's any more significant than Go or Scream 2.
Guest:I mean, significant in that it was an amazing... It's a thing that keeps...
Marc:giving and it's a lot more screen time though i mean you know it was the first lead role it was like a leading role and you could dig into it because like you know you had milch who's a genius and you had this incredible landscape and you know you did some you could do some real character work and tell a huge arc of a story yeah yeah no that was a good and you're in the wild west and it was a it was one of those gigs that just keeps giving you know well that's what you got the movie now right we just yeah no i mean it keeps giving in terms of um
Marc:People knowing who you are?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I mean, it keeps giving in that the things I learned on that time frame is something that I draw from all the time.
Marc:Like what?
Guest:You name it.
Guest:I mean, I worked with David.
Guest:So working with David Milch, he's now a voice in my head that I hear on every set I've been to since.
Guest:Saying what?
Guest:Saying that there's possibilities here that perhaps...
Guest:are worth exploring, that there's opportunities here, that the roadblock here in front of you is actually an opportunity, that there's an idea available that if you think that what you're talking about at craft service is maybe more connected to the work than you would otherwise had thought of.
Guest:Interesting.
Guest:I saw a way of working.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Guest:They saw a way of approaching the work.
Marc:That was more creative in a way or more freeing?
Guest:It was inspiring.
Guest:Yeah, it was all those things.
Guest:It was creative, but I guess in the simplest terms, it was seeing someone who I imagine it's a little bit like what you are talking about with your own work.
Guest:It's someone who did something very simple.
Guest:They did all the homework.
Guest:They exhausted all the research and they put their heart and soul into the piece, and then they showed up and they were willing to just throw it all out the window and just go with what was the inspiration in front of them.
Guest:And it was a way of... He was the writer and the storyteller, but he worked in a way that I thought, that's what I want, that's what I'm looking for.
Guest:And I'd seen it along the way,
Guest:I don't know about you, but along the way you see things in any kind of craft.
Guest:You see Dave Attell at Boston Comedy and you think, what he's doing there, how can I, even if I don't pursue stand-up, how can I take that and bottle it and take it with me to the next thing?
Guest:That willingness to just...
Guest:pushy envelope yeah just just say you know i'm just gonna trust that just because this is this is of interest to me the willingness to fail right the willingness to clearly spend a lot of time thinking about what he's been thinking about right and then throw it seemingly just fucking throw it against the wall yeah
Guest:and see if anyone else out there feels the same.
Guest:I mean, you know, it's like something that's quite beautiful and simple, but hard to trust.
Guest:Right, for sure.
Guest:And I remember showing up on, I did a scene in a Danny Boyle movie called Life Less Ordinary, and my scene essentially was cut from the film.
Guest:I'm in there for seconds, but I shot.
Marc:That's why I can never be an actor for a job.
Guest:But you know what?
Guest:It didn't matter.
Guest:I spent a day with Holly Hunter.
Guest:And that day made an impression on me.
Guest:It was the first time working on film where I watched someone, I watched an actor work in a way where I thought, oh.
Guest:How do you do that?
Guest:How do you do... It was that thing.
Guest:She clearly knew the scene inside and out from every direction, and yet I was standing in front of her, and the camera's on her, and, you know, the wind picks up, and she turns her face into the wind and, like, turns away from camera and lets the wind blow on her face while she's talking and then turns back to me.
Guest:And I'm like, you know, she's fucking up her take.
Right.
Guest:And then I'm like, wait a minute.
Guest:That's not what's happening here.
Guest:What's happening here is watching this woman who's just in the moment and so out of her head that she's just willing to go with, you know, someone makes a sound off camera.
Guest:She turns and stares at them while she's still talking to me.
Guest:And I'm like, she's just, she's just crazy.
Marc:In it.
Guest:In it.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:She doesn't, you know, there's this, I remember hearing this phrase once, I think it was Pacino on that movie where he's looking for Richard, where he says something like, you know, every takes a rehearsal.
Guest:And I remember when I heard it, I thought that's a great idea.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:If you could work that way, every takes a rehearsal.
Guest:But to actually work that way,
Guest:it's really frightening sure like you know you're trying so hard to get it right right anyway i'm babbling but you know along the way you saw that so working on deadwood working with milch and then and then working with the the actors that were on that set that were just you know masters at their craft yeah it's a job that keeps on giving
Marc:I get it.
Marc:I get it.
Marc:Yeah, because if you stay open, it's always surprising.
Guest:Yes, because you know going forward now those are the people you want to be having a conversation with.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So no matter who you're working with at the time, you're like, yeah, but I'm having a conversation...
Guest:with these people I've met along the way.
Guest:And they've now given me permission to do this, this way.
Marc:Yeah, and you're always sort of learning and expanding.
Marc:And if you're working with great actors, then all of a sudden you're like, it's so wild, they just up your game, dude.
Guest:I went to the... Season one, I went to the Deadwood premiere.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And to the, you know, the rap party.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And they showed the outtakes.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And, you know, we're all in this thing and we're all doing all this serious, crazy Shakespearean poetry shit.
Guest:And I realized...
Guest:I'm not in a lot of these outtakes.
Guest:I realize these other guys are having way more fun at work.
Guest:And I went to our wrap party for the Deadwood movie a few months ago.
Guest:And goddamn, if I wasn't all through that fucking outtake gag reel.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:And I thought to myself, ah, I must be really good in this movie.
Yeah.
Guest:Or at least you're having fun.
Guest:I've clearly gotten so much better at my job.
Guest:If this is any indication how much better of an actor I've become, this is a good sign.
Guest:Yeah, just having way more fun.
Marc:Well, I think that that is a lot of it is relaxing into it.
Marc:Because I had to learn on the job for the most part by doing my little show on IFC.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And I knew going in as a comic from watching other comics that you're going to be self-conscious.
Marc:You're going to be stiff.
Marc:You're not going to know how to really be on screen, but you're just going to have to take the hit and do it.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:And what's the what's the hardest transition?
Guest:I have a theory about this.
Guest:What is the hardest thing about stand up versus acting?
Guest:Well, I mean, meaning where does one not help the other one?
Marc:Or does it?
Marc:Well, there's a couple things.
Marc:With stand-up, you're in complete control of what you're doing.
Marc:You're deciding what you say.
Guest:Take it this way, take it that way.
Marc:Also, this is my material and this is who I am.
Marc:But what I noticed, not so much for myself, but I think it happens, I realize it probably happens with actors all the time, is that stand-ups without knowing it are completely in their head or self-conscious.
Marc:And it's instinctual.
Marc:You can't sit there while you're doing it and go like, I'm too much in my head.
Marc:Because even when you're really doing a good job acting, you have those takes where you're like, I wasn't in that one.
Marc:And that's the one the director goes, that was great.
Guest:That's the trick, isn't it?
Guest:See, I'm aware of this.
Guest:This is the biggest, to me, I'm always fascinated by watching stand-ups who become actors.
Guest:Because I think the hardest thing is to get out of your head.
Marc:Well, a lot of my stuff is generated from my head, but the one thing I've always done that is unlike a lot of other comics is that most of my generating, most of my writing happens live.
Marc:So I don't write jokes down.
Marc:I'm going to riff.
Marc:So my immediate creative process is in conversation with the audience.
Marc:It's not like I'm going to try this out.
Guest:Well, that's where it feels like it lends itself.
Marc:Yes, if you can do that.
Guest:Because any great stand-up is totally dialed into the audience, and they're riding it like a wave, and they're taking their cues from the audience.
Guest:They know when to shift and when to, right?
Marc:Right, you do.
Guest:Because to not listen to the audience is going to be a total failure.
Guest:They're your acting partner.
Marc:Right, or listen to other people, but a lot of guys don't do that.
Marc:It is about being present, and then just being comfortable in your body.
Marc:That's something you just got to, it's just going to take time.
Guest:I was curious, I hadn't even thought about it.
Marc:Because, like, I think my primary concern was, like, when I first started doing my show, I was like, what do I do with my hands?
Marc:You know, like, am I, should I, how do hands work?
Marc:You know, as an actor, should I be thinking about my hands?
Marc:Like, I never really thought about my hands, but now I'm thinking about my hands.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, see, already, that's death.
Guest:Right, it is, but... Do you ever play that game where you just think about whoever you're in the scene with?
Guest:Just, what are they doing with their hands?
Yeah.
Marc:Well, sometimes with doing scenes as I got better at it, you know, because by the last season of my show, I was like, all right, I'm comfortable on screen.
Marc:It's also a matter, and I know you do it too, guys, watching you, is that the thing about comedy is your timing based on laughs.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And in acting, you have to self-generate your timing, but there is a timing to it.
Guest:There is a timing, yes.
Marc:And you've got to take that time.
Guest:Well, yeah, it's that game where you know you're being funny, but at the same time, you have to pretend you're not being funny.
Marc:Right, there's that, but there's also sort of like letting moments, like when you're in a scene, sort of go like, all right, I'm gonna go ahead and walk away now, but I'm gonna take this much time to do it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:You're sort of, it becomes organic.
Marc:Yes, it does.
Marc:Right.
Guest:But do you play, so here's the game I feel like I've been playing the last more or less 10 years.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It feels like.
Guest:I feel like I don't, I don't know if I started playing it before.
Guest:My favorite game to play is to – the goal of the game is to try to remember everything that everybody else did and not be aware of anything you did.
Marc:Interesting.
Guest:And that's a very – that is my feel like the pursuit of that has become –
Guest:How does that... An obsession.
Marc:How does that manifest itself?
Marc:What do you mean everything they did?
Marc:In the scene or... Exactly.
Guest:So, like now, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You and I are having this conversation.
Guest:The idea that I'm just... That let's say we're gonna... Let's just talk for one more minute.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in that minute...
Guest:My whole goal is to remember everything you did.
Marc:So you're not thinking about you.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I'm seeing everything that's going on with you.
Guest:I see everything with your eyebrows.
Guest:You're getting excited.
Guest:You're toning it down.
Guest:You're nodding your head a little bit.
Guest:That moment where you nodded your head there.
Guest:I remember all of a sudden you did that thing.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:You did that.
Guest:That was great.
Guest:So when they call cut, I'm like, I remember everything Mark did.
Guest:I'm like, so that was a good take.
Marc:Right.
Marc:We can move on.
Marc:Because you were not self-conscious.
Marc:I don't remember anything I did.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I just remember everything Mark did and I loved all of it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That's nice.
Marc:That's a good exercise.
Guest:Same game.
Guest:If the camera's on me, I try to put it on you.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:This is your take.
Guest:It's not my take.
Guest:Right.
Guest:I'm just dialed into you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm like, wow, how's he doing?
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I've had moments where I'm watching when I'm acting with somebody that's great, you know, like Bree or like Betty Gilpin or somebody, and I'm just like, oh my God, she's really doing it.
Marc:That's it.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:That's what you want to be.
Marc:It is.
Marc:That's the game.
Marc:Sometimes I feel like I'm not in it if I'm doing that.
Marc:I mean, I'm listening, but like, and sometimes like I get so moved by someone else's performance and I know that it's not, I shouldn't be like tearing up or anything.
Marc:No.
Marc:But like- Isn't that the best?
Marc:Yeah.
Yeah.
Guest:but don't you don't you isn't that the most fun about um it's the saddest thing about off-camera work i find uh you know is that i i hate to admit it but when the camera's on the other person i'm like wow look at them look at them do their thing they're really doing i'm like yeah fuck yeah this is what i should be doing this is where you want to be where am i why am i not here yeah that's it yeah to me that's like heaven that's just where you want to live
Marc:Yeah, I mean, I have had to learn how to have fun or acknowledge that, you know, because when you're shooting a TV show, you have so much coverage and there are so many takes that, like, it's hard to, at some point, not go like, oh, God.
Guest:Of course not.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:That's, well, no.
Guest:Listen, it's all in my book on acting.
Guest:Don't be afraid to bitch and other tips for young actors.
Guest:What the fuck?
Guest:How many ways are you going to cover this fucking thing?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Let me tell you something, asshole.
Guest:The gun can only go off once.
Guest:So you can cover it from over there.
Guest:You can cover it from over there.
Guest:You can get a nice shot from down here, be underneath the horse's dick up to the gun.
Guest:You're going to have to pick one.
Guest:So why not just commit now and we can all go home early?
Marc:It took me a long time to realize that.
Marc:Oh, my God.
Marc:It's so hard not to be on.
Marc:That you're shooting around all this stuff, but in the story, you only use one.
Guest:You can only see one.
Guest:You know why they're doing that?
Guest:This is the downside of television.
Guest:What?
Guest:Well, directors show up without a point of view.
Guest:They're just here to service the writer, and so they're just going to cover their ass.
Marc:Right.
Guest:If they're going to cover it, they'll figure it out in post.
Guest:Right.
Marc:This is the... That's the difference between film and TV?
Guest:Not a lot of film anymore, but certain filmmakers just know this shot is for that moment.
Guest:You got to have the coverage.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, or choices pretentious, but, you know, having just done the work with Quentin Tarantino for a few weeks, like this shot is for this moment.
Guest:This is the shot.
Guest:And this is the reason why we're doing this shot, because this is the story we're telling.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We're not covering it from every fucking... We're not covering it from down the hall and down the block, and we're not... There's no three cameras.
Guest:It's just one camera, and this is the shot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because this is the story, and he's the storyteller, and he's telling it through images.
Guest:When you get on a television set, you know, God bless them, but they're just going to cover their ass.
Guest:We're going to start off wide.
Guest:We're going to push in.
Guest:The upside in television is you've given the writer all the power, which is... Which, you know, God bless them.
Guest:They, you know, they don't...
Guest:famously have constantly been, you know, first thing you do is fire the writer.
Guest:I mean, spend more money on hair to fix the film than you will on getting a good writer.
Guest:But, so the upside is you gave the storyteller and the writer some power.
Guest:The downside I felt like a lot oftentimes is you get a director...
Guest:who is going through the motions as opposed to owning it right because it's not their thing right and so they're they're gonna show off some some skill and some flash but they're not gonna um they're not gonna commit the way they do a point of view to a point of view unless it's theirs which is rare
Guest:Because it doesn't feel like theirs, and they don't want to rock the boat.
Marc:Unless they were the first ones out.
Guest:They want to be asked back.
Guest:They want to be easy.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:They're like, hey, we're here.
Marc:But I find that some directors do have some way, because I've used, like when we were shooting my little show, like Bobcat would come in, Goldthwait.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And, you know, my sensibility is close to his, but he definitely, definitely could feel a tone.
Marc:I think that like someone like Lynn, because she makes so many movies, she's good with actors and she's capable of finding that tone.
Marc:But then there are then there are the cats that are just sort of like shoot it out.
Marc:You know, it's just.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not saying they're not.
Guest:They're very good.
Guest:I mean, it's a wonder... One of my favorite things about television is having all these different voices and different people come in and the opportunity to have a dialogue with them.
Guest:It's an endless education and seeing strengths and weaknesses.
Guest:What I thought sometimes can be frustrating is...
Guest:Let's say I'm struggling with a scene, and maybe the writer and I both were working on it.
Guest:Something's not working.
Guest:I hate going to the director of that particular episode and saying, let me ask you a question.
Guest:What do you think of that sequence there?
Guest:And they're like, yeah, it's fine.
Guest:And I'll be like, I'm like, no, it's not fine.
Guest:It doesn't fucking work.
Guest:And they're like, well, you know, and I'm like, yeah, but what do you think?
Guest:And they're like, you know, my job is not really, you know, my job is to shoot the scene that they wrote.
Guest:And I'm like, well, then go fuck yourself.
Guest:You just leave.
Guest:Give me the cameras, put them over here, put them over there.
Guest:Where do you want to put them?
Guest:You want them over there?
Guest:You can go home now.
Yeah.
Guest:You know what I mean, right?
Marc:Sure, they just want to get through the day and shoot it out.
Guest:Yeah, they're like, yeah, I don't want to cause a bunch of problems and they'll never have me back.
Guest:There's a season two.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Right, exactly.
Guest:They want to be like, hey, that guy was great.
Guest:He was nice and his episode turned out fine.
Marc:So when you shot the Deadwood movie, was it equally as rewarding?
Marc:Was Milch, you know, who directed it?
Guest:Lovely guy, Dan Minahan.
Guest:Nice to get back into the character.
Guest:I didn't think it was going to be, but I did like it.
Guest:I really had a great time.
Marc:That's good.
Guest:I enjoyed it.
Guest:It was a very rewarding experience, and it was a funny, weird task.
Marc:I'm excited about it.
Marc:And also, the other thing I noticed I was going to say at the beginning about Justified that I realized was like...
Marc:Yeah, I'm watching them and I'm like, I'm into it.
Marc:But I realized like, it's really a classic, you know, cop show.
Marc:Like from the 70s or 80s.
Marc:Like, you know, it was like, it reminded me of McLeod.
Guest:The first season especially started out that way.
Guest:It got less so as it went.
Marc:right yeah yeah it gets a little more like yeah it gets more serialized yeah yeah yeah in the beginning it was sort of a like almost like like a lot of things you're we're we're figuring uh figuring it out as we went yeah but like it just felt like that like this is that guy kind of he's not a fish out of water but he's a fish back home he doesn't want to be back home yeah and you know and you kind of move through that world yep
Marc:It was like Beretta or any of those shows.
Marc:Yeah, it was like Rockford Files.
Marc:Right, exactly.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Marc:And it's sort of cool.
Guest:Yeah, I know.
Guest:I appreciate that.
Guest:Because it worked, right?
Guest:People dug the show.
Guest:Yeah, well, I think they especially dug the show.
Marc:It got deeper, yeah.
Guest:As it went, yeah.
Marc:With Weird Walton.
Guest:With Weird Walton.
Guest:He's great, huh?
Guest:What a good actor.
Marc:I'm a big fan of his.
Marc:That thing he did in Vice Principals, I don't even know what that was, but it was something else, man.
Marc:He commits.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's what you got to do.
Guest:You got to commit.
Marc:Good talking to you, man.
Guest:Hey, thank you.
Guest:Likewise.
Guest:I appreciate the invitation.
Marc:I'm glad we did it.
Marc:You got to go all the way back to the West Side now?
Marc:This is the perfect time of day to do something on this side.
Guest:You're trying to end it on a sour note?
Marc:No, but I was impressed.
Guest:So now you got to get back and drive home?
Guest:You're just going to stay here?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How about I put it this way?
Guest:So you got to just keep living here?
Marc:I am.
Marc:I'm going to keep living here.
Marc:I'm going to drive out of here.
Marc:My point was, because I live on the east side, I thought to myself, he picked the right time to come.
Marc:You know, because when you've got to travel from where you are or where I am, if you've got like a 10 a.m.
Marc:or a 4 to 5 a.m.
Marc:meeting or something, it's like, fuck.
Marc:And I'm not doing it.
Guest:No, don't do it.
Marc:I'm not going over there.
Marc:I'm not going to be the last meeting of the day coming to fucking from the east side.
Marc:I don't need the part.
Marc:Exactly.
Marc:See, you figured it out.
Marc:I figured out show business.
Marc:You clearly figured it out.
Marc:Look at this.
Marc:I'm in my house.
Guest:I can't get over that this is show business.
Marc:Yeah, it was funny at the beginning when we started doing this like 10 years ago or whatever, when I was at the old house, people would come like, where the fuck am I?
Marc:Because I was in Highland Park and these big stars would come and they're like, what is this?
Marc:I'm like, this is the future, dude.
Marc:This is where it's at.
Marc:It's a good time to deal with it.
Marc:Who would have thunk?
Marc:Certainly not me.
Marc:It changed my life, and it was the one time in my life I somehow just happened into some good cosmic timing.
Marc:I had a skill set that applied, but somehow I made it.
Marc:It was just one of those things you have no control over.
Marc:I had no anticipation or expectation.
Guest:I get it.
Guest:Oftentimes, those are the best things.
Guest:It still kills me that we're the only two people in this building.
Marc:We are, I hope.
Marc:Let's go downstairs.
Guest:We should go downstairs.
Marc:Thanks, man.
Pleasure.
Guest:Thank you.
Marc:Okay, that was me and Timothy Oliphant back home in my house.
Marc:I'm still in Madison.
Marc:I hope this sounded okay.
Marc:Okay, no music.
Marc:I'm not home.
Marc:Boomer lives!
you