Episode 1013 - Bryan Callen
Marc:All right, let's do this.
Marc:How are you?
Marc:What the fuckers?
Marc:What the fuck buddies?
Marc:What the fucking ears?
Marc:What's happening?
Marc:I'm Mark Maron.
Marc:This is my podcast WTF.
Marc:It's unlike other podcasts in that it's mine.
Marc:Brian Callan is on the show today.
Marc:Brian Callan, the comedian and actor, very funny man.
Marc:It's one of those episodes where, you know, some people can make me laugh, but some people can really fucking make me laugh.
Marc:And Brian Callan definitely has my number on.
Marc:in that department a lot of laughing there's a lot of mark laughing in this interview he's got a special out called complicated apes it's available on itunes amazon prime google play and more but he's here with me today i'm thrilled
Marc:with the feedback from the Brene Brown episode because I was very engaged in that conversation.
Marc:There was a lot of stuff in it, if you listen to it, that was important to me at this juncture in my life.
Marc:Something's going on.
Marc:Me, Mark, at 55 years old, something's happening.
Marc:Me, Mark, has had enough of me on some levels.
Marc:Really fucking had enough of the patterns, the cycles, the circling back around could happen in a week, could happen in a year.
Marc:But I have this issue of arriving at the same place, the same wall, the same chasm, the same cliff.
Marc:I just, you know, I get tired of it and I got to do something because I can't I can't live with the way I am on some level.
Marc:I'm not being morose.
Marc:This isn't a suicide note.
Marc:I'm just like I can't take it.
Marc:Here's an email that made me feel a little better.
Marc:Vulnerability and theatrical clown.
Marc:Hey, Mark, I love the Brene Brown episode.
Marc:It's scary how familiar your description of shame and guilt sounded to me.
Marc:I did want to share with you my experience with embracing vulnerability, which I discovered in a surprising place.
Marc:Theatrical clown.
Marc:A couple of years ago, my friends chipped in for a birthday present, a clown workshop at the Barrow Group in New York City.
Marc:On the first day, our teacher talked about clown in terms of tension between vulnerability and resilience and acceptance of our own ridiculousness, which is a way to be fully present.
Marc:I've since went on a bit of a journey and studied clown with Philippe Gallier, I think is how you say his name.
Marc:Sacha Baron Cohen mentioned him on your podcast and a few other teachers and currently working on my own theatrical clown show.
Marc:I don't know if there's a clown scene in LA.
Marc:Oh, let me tell you something, pal.
Marc:There's many clown scenes in LA.
Marc:Sadly, none of them are on purpose.
Marc:There's a lot of unintentional clown scenes on every level in this city, buddy.
Marc:Anyways, here's a quote that puts it into better words than I could.
Marc:Alex, been a regular listener since 2013.
Marc:Did you ever get the Gogol Bordello record I sent you?
Marc:I did, thank you.
Marc:Not sure I liked it, but I got it.
Marc:Here's the quote, quote, a clown entering a performance space must experience pleasure at being there, even if that clown is nervous or afraid or unsure.
Marc:A clown revealing his or her vulnerability must experience pleasure in doing so, even if what he or she reveals feels embarrassing or overwhelming.
Marc:The clown's pleasure lets the audience know that it is OK, that it is OK for the audience to consider what the clown reveals.
Marc:that the clown is okay with what he or she reveals and that it is okay for the audience to be affected, moved by what is revealed, moved, provoked to tears or to laughter.
Marc:Crucially, the clown's pleasure allows for the possibility of laughter.
Marc:It allows the audience to laugh at the beauty of the clown's ridiculousness.
Marc:And in laughing at the clown's ridiculousness, the audience laughs at its own, unquote.
Marc:Sue Morrison, clown through mask.
Marc:So, look, I've been somewhat of a professional clown for a long time.
Marc:I've certainly put my vulnerability out there in a way that, quite frankly, in some manifestations has been emotionally unsafe.
Marc:I think that that the angry clown, I mean, you got your sad clowns, you got your doofus clowns, your, you know, kind of physical clowns.
Marc:I was of the angry clown variety and I wasn't always sure that what I was saying was funny, but I knew that there was vulnerability.
Marc:There's a certain amount of vulnerability and anger.
Marc:Unfortunately, it's destructive.
Marc:But I like the idea that I used to think about taking a clown course.
Marc:I was sort of fascinated with the idea that every clown had to design his own makeup and every clown was personal.
Marc:And when I've seen clown exercises, sometimes they just wear the nose and nothing else.
Marc:I think that through my own work, I've sort of landed on
Marc:Certain elements of clowning.
Marc:I definitely think I am a mark clown.
Marc:But I appreciate that approach to vulnerability.
Marc:It makes sense.
Marc:And I, of course, on reading it, decided that I indeed am a clown.
Marc:And a lot of times I'm an unintentional clown.
Marc:I'm in a rough place in a lot of ways.
Marc:It's just like I have this fucking...
Marc:Something inside has a grip on my goddamn heart and I gotta let it go and I'm not entirely sure how to do it.
Marc:And...
Marc:It usually reveals itself in my more intimate relationships where I realize that, you know, my vulnerability and my spectrum of vulnerability and my ability to sort of be myself is kind of in place.
Marc:But but there's a lot of dodging going on.
Marc:You know, there's a lot of ways over the years from when I was a kid.
Marc:you know that i just learned how to sort of avoid that part of my heart and i'm very aware of it and i'm aware of the global climate i'm aware of the cultural climate and i'm aware of my own age and some of the stuff that i talked about with bernie brown was very is it prescient in just that like not knowing you know how much longer i have and not knowing what it really looks like to get it right but uh
Marc:I think as you get older, if you're hyper self-aware like I am, I mean, what do I do during the day?
Marc:It's all pretty self-involved.
Marc:I don't have children.
Marc:I have a very sort of chaotic and anxiety-ridden inner life.
Marc:But I have an outer life that is a little more calmer.
Marc:I'm clearly not incapacitated.
Marc:I can manage my life to a certain degree.
Marc:But I can't seem to not be...
Marc:You know, somewhat defensive on a very deep level.
Marc:And it's really annoying because I know it.
Marc:I don't know if any of you experience this, but but I literally behave in a certain way.
Marc:It's almost some sort of form of like it's like an it's like emotional ALS, you know, and again, I'm not trying to trivialize anybody with with a horrible muscular disease.
Marc:But the idea of somebody with ALS in advanced stages where their body and muscles are completely unfunctional, but their brain and their inner life is completely functional.
Marc:And they're just sort of trapped in this non-functioning husk of a body.
Marc:And they know that.
Marc:I think I have that in an emotional way where I know what my feelings are and what I need to do and what I desire to do in an open-hearted way.
Marc:But my exterior husk is this personality I've sort of designed through necessity and through fear to sort of protect.
Marc:I guess it was to protect, but now...
Marc:I literally find myself behaving in certain ways.
Marc:And inside, I'm like, don't do that.
Marc:Don't say that.
Marc:Don't act this way.
Marc:Why are you acting this way?
Marc:And it's just it's happening.
Marc:It's almost dissociative.
Marc:And I'm tired of it.
Marc:And I need to bring those things together.
Marc:You know, whatever I'm afraid of is long gone.
Marc:I really want to work on this stuff.
Marc:And, you know, I've worked through a lot of stuff with you guys.
Marc:And, you know, certainly I have conversations with people.
Marc:But I got to get to the core of this shit.
Marc:So, you know, in this second half here, this final quarter, wherever the fuck I'm at in my life.
Marc:I can at least feel whole and true to myself to a degree, which I am.
Marc:But see, the thing is, I've learned is that you can be true to yourself and still be an asshole.
Marc:Like, yeah, I truly know that I'm being an asshole or I truly know that I'm being defensive, right?
Marc:I am who I am and it's not great.
Marc:This is who I am.
Marc:I'm being true to myself.
Marc:But that deeper idea,
Marc:The idea of wholeheartedness.
Marc:And I don't like these buzzwords.
Marc:I didn't even know the word mindful.
Marc:I didn't.
Marc:Mindful is a new word.
Marc:I used to just call it self-obsessed.
Marc:Mindful seems to be a more flowing, a kind of less harsh word.
Marc:It's not self-obsession because it's not as active.
Marc:So I was mindful times two, which is self-obsessed.
Marc:and uh you know kind of always trying to to figure out that what the hell is wrong with me and now you know i i know what it is i've danced around it i've read the books i've i've gotten sort of models that you know tell me what it is and i know certain things about myself but i got to do some other fucking work man and i'm gonna i i call the new therapist i'm going and i'm not a guy that does that usually
Marc:Also, like, it's interesting that I've been getting emails.
Marc:And, yeah, I had that issue with the Buddhist.
Marc:And I got another email from a Buddhist.
Marc:I got the angry Buddhist email from a guy who thought I was very angry, thought I just was so ignorant about Buddhism.
Marc:And then I got this one, Buddhist hilarity and a guest idea.
Marc:Dear Mark, Buddhist hilarity.
Marc:I write in support of your wonderful fun poking at Buddhists in your podcast with Vincent D'Onofrio.
Marc:While some may have found it ignorant, I'm no dummy and found it spot on funny.
Marc:As a practicing Buddhist, I am flummoxed by the tendency of many of my brothers and sisters in compassion to turn into fragile appearing newborn bunnies.
Marc:It's both false and misleading and therefore deserving of a bit of playful ridicule.
Marc:I have the same reaction every time I attend many Buddhist functions, i.e.
Marc:good God, really people.
Marc:I assure you that many of us Buddhists who practice meditation daily, working toward our own enlightenment and the relief of suffering of all living beings can kick ass aplenty, defend ourselves with mortal skill, and if necessary, eat our bunny brethren who choose to act like helpless little rodents.
Marc:Bless their hearts.
Marc:Yours and laughing suffering, Ben.
Marc:Again, it's interesting that this is the second Buddhist input I've gotten, and it did turn out to be fairly aggressive there at the end.
Marc:He understood the joke, agreed with the sort of lighthearted ridicule of it, but then said if he had to, he could eat people and kill somebody if necessary.
Marc:Maybe I do have a misunderstanding of Buddhists.
Marc:Maybe I really do because the couple of emails I've gotten so far, wow, it's a cauldron in there, man.
Marc:It's a cauldron when you make that decision, but I'm not going to mock it.
Marc:I'm not going to mock it because I don't want that guy to kill me in a Buddhist way.
Marc:So look, Brian Cowan and I go back a bit.
Marc:There was a period there I didn't think I thought we had a problem, but he didn't seem to think so.
Marc:But Brian has a stand up special, Complicated Apes, that's available now on iTunes, Amazon Prime and Google Play and more.
Marc:And, you know, we see each other every so often.
Marc:And I remember him back from back in the day.
Marc:And and this is me and him, me and Brian Callen doing the thing.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:All right, so you can put, you want more cans?
Marc:It doesn't matter.
Marc:Go ahead.
Marc:I'll just talk to you.
Marc:Wear them.
Marc:It's better this way.
Marc:You think so?
Marc:Are you going to talk at that level?
Marc:This is kind of my brand.
Marc:Is this the new thing?
Guest:Yeah, I'll just whisper.
Guest:Mickey Work.
Marc:Mickey Work.
Guest:Mickey Work from the 90s.
Marc:Jon Bernthal talked a little like that, too.
Marc:He keeps it low.
Guest:Come on, man.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:You got to not reinvent yourself.
Guest:Just be a guy.
Marc:Yeah, you know that.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Actors all want to be tough.
Guest:It's just very sad.
Guest:It's like you're not tough.
Guest:That's just all... You're into making believe, and that's okay.
Guest:I'm the same way.
Guest:I've always hated not being a tough guy.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:You know, it's like... I compensate for it.
Guest:It's why I box and do all this.
Guest:It's very sad.
Guest:I still do.
Guest:I haven't let go of it.
Yeah.
Guest:It's really a terrible thing.
Guest:Okay, you need to sound like you need to get some things.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I'm glad we're here.
Marc:Right out of the gate.
Guest:Let's just start talking.
Guest:Is it time to unload?
Guest:Yeah, let's just unload.
Guest:I'm going to cry into the mic softly.
Guest:Right away?
Guest:Softly.
Guest:No, you can make it loud.
Guest:Okay, good.
Guest:Well, you have a hand gripper, so I can do this in case I want to get some.
Guest:Dude.
Guest:It's a hard one.
Guest:It's not easy.
Guest:Don't kid yourself.
Guest:I got a vice-like grip.
Marc:Yeah, I know.
Marc:For an actor.
Marc:Like you're an exercise guy.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Please.
Marc:Now, I just want to try to figure out... I was trying to remember why I thought we had problems.
Marc:Do you remember?
Guest:Yeah, but I've never felt that way.
Guest:Somebody said, Mark said that you don't like him.
Guest:And I went, I've never had that thought in my fucking life.
Guest:In fact, I remember we spent time together...
Guest:Back in the day, we were just kind of hanging out, and then life gets in the way.
Guest:But I never thought that.
Marc:I don't know where I got that in my head or why.
Guest:I have a deep kinship only because you and I knew each other 25 years ago.
Marc:I know, dude.
Guest:And I always thought you were...
Guest:Not only painfully funny, but very smart.
Guest:And you didn't get your success until later in life.
Guest:So when I see somebody who sits in that cut and never gives up and then sees all that success, that's a big deal.
Guest:That's more than the American dream.
Guest:That takes a lot of grit.
Marc:Yeah, I think, you know, it's something I admire.
Marc:I'm thinking, like, because, like, you know, I make, like, you walk in, you ask me if I, you know, the guy, Brendan, his name, Brendan Schaub.
Marc:Schaub, he's on the podcast, right?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:The fighter and the kid, is that it?
Marc:Yes, yes.
Marc:That's your podcast, one of them.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Didn't you do another one with the Leah, the...
Marc:The 10-minute podcast.
Marc:But you're out of that.
Guest:No, and I have mixed mental arts now where I talk to academics.
Marc:I read books and talk to the smartest people I can find and try to... You and Rogan are doing the sort of enlightened... He does it better than I do.
Marc:The enlightened ex-meatheads.
Guest:This is exactly right.
Guest:I want to be a meathead, but I just don't have the bone structure, nor do I have the brain to be an intellectual.
Marc:You like being lean.
Guest:I do.
Guest:I like being facile.
Guest:I want you to describe it this way.
Guest:Brian is facile and elastic.
Guest:Facile and elastic.
Guest:Flexible.
Guest:Now ask me how I do against a regular guy in a fight.
Marc:What's a regular guy?
Guest:Just say, hey, bro, how would you do in a fight?
Marc:How would you do in a fight against a regular guy?
Guest:I'll keep him busy.
Guest:See, I like saying tough guy things.
Guest:Is that your character?
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:Keep him busy.
Guest:Yeah, keep him busy.
Marc:But like you said, that he thinks I don't like him because he's a jock.
Marc:And I don't know that a lot of times that's my main issue.
Marc:I think it's more like he's a dick.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:But I don't think he's a dick because I don't know him, but I think it gets confused.
Marc:I don't have a fundamental problem with people who do athletics, but if they're assholes, then they're athletic assholes.
Guest:You might feel like he might be a bully or a guy who measures strength in only one way.
Marc:He sort of put a lot of thought into this.
Marc:No, he's not.
Guest:He was never?
Guest:No.
Guest:Brendan is very unique because he's very funny.
Guest:He's a comic now.
Guest:He wanted to be a comic.
Guest:He always says, I'm like a dolphin in the body of a great white.
Guest:He just has this impossible body that does what he tells it to do and he's just all muscle.
Marc:He's a big fella.
Marc:I see him at the store, right?
Guest:Yeah, but all he wanted to be was Marc Maron or Adam Sandler.
Guest:I'm not kidding.
Marc:He wants to be Jared Leto.
Marc:He dresses like Jared Leto.
Marc:That's a weird triumvirate you just mentioned.
Marc:Sandler, me, or Jared Leto.
Guest:You're all the same person.
Guest:Is there one frequency?
Guest:No, no, no.
Guest:I just, I lump you all into this one.
Guest:When I see you, I see Leto.
Marc:Well, we knew, like, I think you and I, here's where I think I could track the resentment if I had one, if I projected onto you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:I think when we were in New York, if I'm not mistaken, many years ago, it was a Luna Lounge thing.
Marc:I think that was probably the first time we met, right?
Marc:Luna Lounge in the 90s.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And I don't remember.
Marc:You came out of nowhere, and I didn't have any sort of way to... I didn't know you were a comic, and I couldn't decide whether you were or not.
Marc:yes at that time yeah that makes you just come on I can't remember if you did characters but it was all very amped up it was very physical you came out of nowhere yeah and I was like where does this fucking guy come from at that time and I was always super prepared oh yeah and so you guys would go up there and improvise you guys were these experienced comics and you were the cool guys I was so terrified of not being funny that I would prepare to the nth degree right so if you weren't funny at least you were animated and engaging yeah
Guest:that's right that guy's trying very hard and i just wanted people to like me which was very rather pathetic and sad i never had enough i i i i remember one time uh jeffrey tamber who was my teacher my acting teacher said you've got a self-esteem problem and somebody in the back said thank god in other words that's why he's funny and i was like yeah i guess i do you know but i do but did you like did you ever you wouldn't you didn't do club comedy in new york did you
Guest:I started, but I didn't do The Road.
Guest:I was always doing Stand Up New York and The Comic Strip.
Guest:Those are my home clubs.
Guest:Oh, okay.
Guest:And I was always writing.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then I took a long time off because I wanted to be an actor.
Guest:Remember, I was in theater school forever.
Guest:And I came to L.A.
Guest:and I would do two plays a year and I was at the Beverly Hills Playhouse and I was always doing scenes and I was trying to get jobs.
Guest:I would sometimes.
Marc:Yeah, well, I got questions about that.
Marc:But let's go back, though.
Marc:Where did you come from?
Guest:I grew up all over the world.
Marc:Is that true?
Guest:Yes.
Marc:I don't know why I would doubt it.
Guest:Yeah, I moved to the United States for the first time when I was 14.
Marc:So you were not an American citizen.
Guest:Well, I was born in the Philippines, so I could have chosen to be from the Philippines or from the United States.
Guest:Call me crazy, but I decided... I'm not crazy about Duterte, so I decided to keep my American... He's not your guy.
Guest:Not my guy.
Guest:I like to smoke weed once in a while, and I don't feel like getting killed by a vigilante mob supported by the government.
Guest:There's the guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Don't hurt him.
Guest:He just wants to be liked.
Guest:He's funny.
Guest:I don't want to be thrown in the Bay of Manila because I'm a piece of shit.
Guest:So I was born in the Philippines.
Guest:Was your dad in the military?
Guest:He was a banker, but I believe he probably also worked for the government.
Guest:Now ask me what specifically he did.
Guest:Ask me to watch this.
Marc:What do you do for the government?
Guest:You keep waking up free every morning, and he'll do what he does.
Guest:How's that sound, Mark Mary?
Guest:See that?
Guest:If I tell you- I've got to take you out.
Guest:All right?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:By the way, he's retired in Utah, and he's in Park City, and he skis all day.
Guest:Oh, he's a Utah guy?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Well, he's a Wisconsin guy originally, but-
Guest:Philippines, India, Lebanon.
Guest:How long in India?
Guest:We were in Calcutta and Bombay for a total of about a year and a half.
Marc:How old were you?
Guest:I was a baby.
Guest:I was very young.
Marc:So you have any recollection?
Marc:No.
Marc:But you do have a, you're facile with the accents.
Guest:I am because I grew up around those cultures.
Marc:You were sort of sponging it up.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:Then I moved to Lebanon.
Marc:Lebanon.
Guest:I remember very well.
Marc:Because your dad's a banker for the military.
Guest:Well, and then Pakistan, not a hotspot at all.
Guest:And then back to Lebanon.
Marc:Back and forth.
Guest:And then evacuated to Greece.
Marc:He was on the run.
Guest:Something like that.
Guest:Again, don't ask too many questions.
Guest:Watch this.
Guest:Move in.
Guest:The walls come down.
Guest:What's going on?
Guest:Get them.
Guest:Take them down.
Guest:You just hold over your head.
Guest:And then Saudi Arabia for three years.
Guest:This sounds fishy.
Guest:I know it does.
Guest:And then I'm 14 and I come to boarding school.
Guest:Family still in Saudi Arabia where I go to boarding school in Massachusetts, Northfield, Mount Hermes.
Marc:Now, how much of this do you remember?
Marc:What parts of the world do you remember having experiences in as a person?
Marc:Lebanon.
Guest:From Lebanon on.
Guest:And where were you in Lebanon?
Guest:In Beirut.
Marc:Now, really?
Marc:During the thing?
Marc:During the war.
Marc:I guess there's always a thing.
Guest:Well, no.
Guest:We were there at the start of the Civil War.
Guest:And then we were there for six months.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:We used to sleep on the floor.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Because you'd hear machine guns.
Marc:Were you on a base or in a- No.
Guest:No, we were civilians.
Guest:We were in an apartment.
Marc:Just at a house?
Guest:Yeah, we were in an apartment.
Guest:And I went back in 1981 and didn't recognize anything from my childhood.
Guest:Because it had been- It had all been devastated.
Guest:It was terrible.
Marc:So you're there.
Marc:That's terrifying.
Marc:It's traumatic.
Guest:It's interesting because I'm in therapy for the first time.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And what's very interesting is that when you have to move every two years or whatever, you have to make friends very quickly.
Guest:But you also have to say goodbye very quickly.
Guest:And so you learn how to not necessarily make deep connections or at least always have one foot out, which gets in your way as you get older.
Guest:Yeah, but it's why I'm a stand-up.
Guest:It's also why I think I learned how to ingratiate myself very quickly to people.
Guest:Now, a lot of that has to be undone because you don't want to be the kind of comic that's only about laughs.
Guest:You want to try to say something and be specific.
Marc:And you think you're having success in undoing it, but oddly- I don't know.
Marc:I think so, but it's taken me, I'm 52 for Christ's sake.
Marc:I know, I know.
Marc:You're holding up all right.
Marc:You did shift a little into old guy a couple years ago.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I'm getting my eyes done.
Guest:I'm just going to have my face tighten a little bit.
Guest:Look at that, Mark.
Guest:Look at that.
Guest:Right?
Guest:I mean, look at that.
Guest:Look at the difference.
Guest:Fucking regular guy.
Guest:Bang.
Guest:There's Brian from 1998.
Guest:I used to watch it.
Guest:I used to look at you and I'd be like, man, it's a full-time job.
Marc:Him trying to stay young.
Guest:Dude, fighting that clock, working out.
Guest:I still box.
Guest:It's so sad.
Guest:I mean, it's just the whole thing is hilarious.
Guest:At least I'm not taking testosterone.
Guest:I know.
Guest:There are guys who do that.
Guest:What does that do?
Guest:They're taking human growth.
Guest:Every guy I know my age.
Marc:Doesn't human growth... I think I saw somebody who we know who was taking human growth, and it looked like he had extra body.
Guest:Oh, God, dude.
Guest:Your skin looks like a hot dog.
Guest:You're too veiny.
Guest:I don't want to be 55 and super veiny and dying my hair.
Guest:I don't want to be that...
Marc:They're not fooling anybody.
Marc:But, you know, not unlike, I think, you know, some people who get drastic plastic surgery.
Marc:We all have this body dysmorphia to where those people, I think they look in the mirror and they're like, oh, yeah.
Marc:They don't see what we see like that guy's in trouble.
Marc:That's right.
Guest:They look in the mirror and go like, I'm holding on.
Guest:This is why even when I exercise, I could never do the bodybuilding.
Guest:I'd love to be more muscular.
Guest:I'd like to eat more.
Guest:I've always wanted to be a big guy.
Guest:But that would take the kind of effort I'm not willing to do because it's almost like if there's a line out there, I might do a little blow, but I'm never going to buy blow.
Guest:I'm not going to make an effort to look that good.
Marc:Well, how long will you hang out with the guy with the blow then?
Guest:Well, again, I'll promise I'll start a business with him, whatever it takes to get to it.
Guest:But you won't buy it.
Marc:I'm not going to buy it.
Marc:I got my standards.
Marc:You'll entertain him.
Guest:It's the same thing with, you know, I'm not going to do concentration curls because it's going to make my arms a little more muscular.
Guest:And also, but it's uncomfortable to eat that much.
Guest:All of it.
Guest:It's all vanity.
Guest:And I think as you get older, the idea would be to try to let go of a lot of that.
Marc:And remain flexible.
Marc:To be elastic.
Marc:Elastic, right.
Guest:Elastic and facile.
Marc:But I like this idea that like, because I mean, I too, like I think...
Marc:But I didn't grow up like you, that when you have to leave quickly and you're there quickly, you gotta make new friends so innately you don't create attachments that are too deep because it's too painful when you have to go and you learn that early on.
Marc:But I find that I don't make the deepest attachments because I fall apart when they end.
Marc:If I like somebody, I get very focused and that's my only friend and you're the guy.
Marc:And then once you say something that's judgmental or hurtful, I'm like,
Marc:Fuck, what the... You know, like, I'm crazy.
Guest:Where does that come from?
Guest:I've noticed that from you.
Guest:I've always seen... I've always thought of you as being a wounded guy.
Guest:Like, I've always had a... I've always thought you were great, but you always struck me as generally wounded and sad.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:And afraid to make those connections, 100%.
Guest:Because I always got the sense that you didn't think you were...
Marc:worth being friends with almost you know you always like it'd be like this it'd be like uh like a deer like if i move too quickly you'll run yeah yeah yeah yeah okay this guy's he's kind of which unfortunately which by the way is part of your talent and part of your intelligence i think i think wounded is good but i think i've gotten uh how did it what is my problem my parents were very self-involved so i kind of had to like you know put my personality together whatever you know i could i kind of cobble it together myself from people who i idolized you know by the way yeah again thank god
Marc:Yeah, right.
Marc:But I mean, but because of that, I think that I fundamentally don't trust people.
Marc:And I think they're fucking with me.
Marc:And I think for a lot of years, I always assume that everyone else had it figured out.
Marc:So if anyone was approaching me, I'm like, here's a fucking other asshole.
Marc:Yeah, figured out.
Guest:Do you ever hear Steven Jobs say, when I figured out that the world was made by people no smarter than myself?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Although he's a very smart guy.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Also dead.
Guest:Yes, and also dead.
Guest:But I think that's kind of what happens as you get older is you realize that nobody knows anything.
Guest:That's all bullshit.
Guest:And I'd see a title like PhD.
Guest:You know, for a long time.
Marc:Well, they know things.
Guest:I couldn't audition for men in suits who were in their 50s.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Because my father was such a presence, such a giant in my life.
Marc:What, you were afraid of suits?
Guest:I was afraid.
Guest:I generally felt I would revert back to being a little boy.
Guest:In a suit?
Guest:If I saw a man in a suit in his 50s, a white man in a suit, and he was like, if I had to audition for a guy, I immediately would freeze up.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Isn't that funny?
Marc:It's traumatizing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:That you were traumatized by suits, by the power of the suits.
Marc:Yes.
Guest:I thought they were right and they were men and I was a boy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't become a man until I was about 33, 34, 35.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, until I was no longer intimidated by anybody in regards to what their fucking title is.
Marc:But how long in a particular situation, perhaps a torture situation, would it take for you to become a boy again?
Guest:Well, dude, I meditate and I leave my body.
Guest:So that's what you would do?
Marc:That's exactly.
Marc:That's supposed to be in a boy?
Guest:In the Gulag Archipelago, Alexander Solzhenitsyn said, anybody who tells you they've stood up to interrogation hasn't been interrogated properly.
Guest:I would sing like a canary.
Marc:Okay.
Marc:So now you're leaving Beirut.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I go to Greece.
Marc:But see, that's another thing.
Marc:You had to leave quickly because you said you were evacuated.
Guest:We were evacuated.
Marc:What do you mean?
Marc:What happened?
Guest:The war.
Guest:So if you were there- What the fuck was your dad doing?
Guest:He couldn't get back into the country, in fact, if I remember properly.
Guest:Into what?
Guest:Into America?
Guest:He was overseas and he couldn't get back into Lebanon.
Guest:So then they, I remember my friends, I think Stephen Khatib, his family was evacuated in an armored car.
Guest:We weren't.
Guest:We got in a car and drove off.
Guest:Because at the time they weren't going to, they weren't, Americans were fairly safe.
Guest:Right.
Guest:This was a war between the Christians and the Muslims primarily.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And then that broke into a thousand different factions.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But, you know, we got the hell out of there, went to Greece.
Marc:How was Greece?
Guest:Amazing.
Marc:How long were you there?
Marc:Amazing.
Guest:Two and a half years.
Marc:I'd like to go to Greece.
Marc:I've never been there.
Marc:You've never been to Greece?
Marc:No.
Marc:Have you gone back?
Guest:Athens is amazing, but the islands, when you go to Corfu, when you go to those olive orchards- Did you eat octopus?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:They beat it against the rocks to tenderize it.
Marc:Grill it up.
Guest:Forget it.
Marc:A lot of good fish.
Guest:And you go to those islands and every house is white.
Marc:It's a plaster, white plaster.
Marc:They look so pretty to me.
Guest:The Aegean Sea, the Mediterranean, forget it.
Guest:Most beautiful women on the planet.
Guest:Beautiful people.
Guest:Gorgeous people.
Guest:And then you, not the most friendly in some ways.
Guest:They don't even like each other.
Marc:I generally have a good feeling for Greeks because of the restaurants.
Guest:It's a great place.
Marc:When I lived in Astoria, I was like, these are great people.
Marc:They understand fish and greens.
Marc:It's all very basic.
Marc:Olive oil, a few different types of feta cheese, but not too many choices.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Simple stuff.
Marc:Olives are good.
Marc:That Greek pita that's a little fluffier than regular pita.
Marc:It's not a pocket bread.
Marc:My point of reference is usually food.
Marc:Me too.
Marc:But with India too, like all these places.
Marc:So you're in Greece for two and a half years and you're like, is that where you lost your virginity, Greece?
Guest:Saudi Arabia, I was 14 years old.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:Was it on purpose?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I slid it in.
Guest:I remember going, holy cow, this is crazy.
Marc:How long did that take?
Marc:I don't think I said holy cow, but in my mind.
Guest:How long did that take?
Guest:Very quickly.
Guest:Very quickly.
Marc:In Saudi Arabia?
Guest:I couldn't believe it was happening.
Guest:I almost fainted, if I remember.
Guest:For real.
Guest:I almost fainted.
Guest:It was just like, what am I doing here?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I still almost faint, generally.
Marc:Do you really?
Guest:You seem like a hell of a lover.
Marc:I'm all right.
Marc:All right.
Guest:Take it easy.
Yeah.
Guest:You got serious for a second.
Guest:I'm all right.
Guest:That's what... I've heard.
Marc:No, listen, I've heard.
Marc:That's what you guys do.
Marc:I know what you're doing.
Marc:You're breaking me down.
Marc:That's what you fucking... The rumor on the street.
Marc:That's what you guys do, right?
Guest:You're like a cheetah with human skins, bro.
Marc:How do I disassemble the neurotic... Look, you know, Mr. Alpha fella.
Marc:I'm not an alpha.
Marc:I'm not either.
Marc:I'm an alpha.
Guest:I'm always shocked when a woman likes me.
Marc:I've said it in my special.
Marc:I'm sort of an alpha pussy.
Marc:I'm that tier of alpha.
Marc:We're the guy saying, look at that fucking meathead over there.
Marc:The real alpha.
Guest:Well, I don't know.
Guest:What you've done is you've made it in an impossible business and done it all on your own.
Marc:Yeah, but do you really think those things hold up the alpha beta thing?
Marc:No.
Marc:No.
Marc:I don't think it's a real thing.
Marc:I hate that talk because- It's not a real category.
Marc:It's like, it ain't right.
Guest:I talk about this in my special.
Marc:The new one?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:The one you're promoting?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:The complicated apes, ladies and gentlemen.
Guest:I'm the worst self-promoter.
Guest:Complicated apes.
Marc:Is that a one-man show?
Guest:It may as well be.
Guest:It's basically an argument for, one of the arguments is the idea that this idea of alpha and all this is, you know, look, we are smart and we are courageous and we are strong.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:In very limited ways.
Guest:Everybody's a dumb wee coward, depending on the situation.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And when you know how to navigate a situation, there are plenty of Navy SEALs that would be terrified to do what we do with a mic in front of a bunch of people.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It just depends on what you have been trained for and what your proclivity is to begin with.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And I think that's why...
Marc:But they're not going to airdrop a bunch of comics into a war zone.
Guest:Of course not, because that's not our job.
Guest:When ISIS is coming over the wall, you don't go, where's Merrin and Callan?
Guest:You don't do that.
Guest:No.
Guest:But in fact, though, what makes our culture interesting and strong is that we represent and we protect all the strengths, soft strengths,
Guest:You know, I do this thing about how Stephen Jobs... Elastic and facile strength.
Guest:Stephen Jobs sucked at CrossFit, I guarantee.
Guest:But he was very strong in an alpha in what he did.
Guest:I'm sure.
Guest:So if you start measuring strength the way the Russians do, all due respect, which is the strongest man with the biggest gun or the biggest muscles, your culture, ironically, in your country will be not creative and not very strong.
Marc:This sounds like a hilarious bit.
Guest:It's hilarious, guys.
Guest:Wait till you get complicated.
Guest:It's...
Guest:Bring a notebook.
Guest:It's basically a TED talk, guys.
Guest:It's good stuff.
Guest:Yeah, I'm the worst.
Guest:I'm not going to do a bunch of jokes.
Marc:I don't want you to.
Marc:I know.
Marc:I like the summarization.
Marc:I'm curious about it.
Marc:I didn't get to see it.
Guest:I'm proud of it.
Guest:I wouldn't tell you to watch anything other than this.
Marc:You seem like a thoughtful monster.
Guest:I think so.
Guest:I try to be.
Guest:You seem like a thoughtful narcissist.
Marc:I was trying to be diplomatic.
Marc:Maybe a little.
Marc:So like in Greece, so you go from Greece to Saudi Arabia?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And you lose your virginity immediately and then you leave?
Guest:No, not immediately.
Guest:It took me two years.
Guest:I fell in love with my girlfriend, then I had to leave immediately and say goodbye to my dog and my girlfriend and never saw them again.
Guest:yeah were they they were still in Saudi Arabia and then I think she moved to Turkey and my dog probably wandered the streets and died no big deal I was a boy and his dog and then I was in you had a dog and you just had to leave the dog your dad was like fuck the dog
Guest:Well, you know, it's a sad story, but yes.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Why'd he get you a dog?
Guest:Well, I got the dog.
Guest:I found the dog on the street when I was, you know, two years before.
Guest:It's terrible.
Guest:Yeah, it was sad.
Guest:I had a therapist say, you suffered abuse when he heard about my childhood, but I reject that.
Marc:What's your mom doing during all this?
Guest:Learning the language, immersing herself in the culture, and they're wise.
Guest:I love my parents.
Marc:Yeah, still around?
Marc:Yeah, but they were doing their best and did a great job.
Guest:Yeah, they're both alive.
Marc:And they're together?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:Isn't that incredible?
Marc:It is incredible.
Marc:It's so hard.
Marc:All right, so you're in Saudi Arabia how long?
Marc:Two and a half years.
Marc:And you're like 15, 16 years old?
Guest:Yeah, two years, two and a half years.
Guest:No, I was 14.
Guest:I left at 14.
Guest:That must have been mind-blowing.
Guest:It was all mind-blowing.
Guest:It was all mind-blowing because you were a minority in a strange land.
Guest:By the way, in that process, I traveled to communist China, communist Russia, the Soviet Union at the time.
Marc:With your dad, the banker.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:I went to Yemen.
Guest:I went to all those countries, Africa, you know, those parts of the world in the 70s and 80s when they were still developing, when they were still communist.
Guest:So it was a very different experience.
Marc:And what was your reactions?
Guest:Shame, mostly.
Guest:Because I was so lucky.
Guest:Because I was always... I saw real starvation.
Guest:I saw what leprosy looks like on someone's face.
Guest:I saw what starving children were.
Guest:I saw all that.
Guest:And I was the kid who was behind...
Guest:a glass pane in an air-conditioned car is an American.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And so when you see that as a boy, it's very difficult to put that into context.
Guest:Why did I get lucky?
Guest:Why did the math fall in my favor?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And your dad's what?
Marc:Going to meet?
Guest:My father was doing a lot of that stuff.
Guest:Have you really pressed him about his job?
Guest:No.
Guest:Yes, but he won't tell you.
Guest:No, but he was a banker and he did spend a lot of time.
Guest:I think he met Saddam Hussein back in the 70s and 80s.
Marc:Back when he was fun.
Guest:Saddam was like... When he was our friend.
Guest:Just a party guy.
Guest:When he was our buddy.
Guest:Before he got all crazy about those WMDs.
Guest:That didn't exist.
Guest:That's right.
Guest:Thank you.
Guest:Are you saying that Iraq was a mistake, sir?
Marc:Might have been.
Guest:Goddamn.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:So it was interesting.
Guest:All of those things lend themselves to who you become, I suppose.
Marc:I guess.
Marc:But like, it's sort of a fascinating thing.
Marc:Like, have you...
Marc:Do you, are you able to go back?
Marc:Do you find that you've blocked some of the memories or it's all just active?
Guest:None of it was traumatic.
Guest:I don't like to, people have traumatic memories.
Guest:I had a charmed childhood.
Guest:It came with a cost and a price, but for the most part, I never wanted for a goddamn thing and I had such an amazing experience.
Marc:And do you have siblings?
Guest:I have a sister.
Marc:Oh, younger?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Oh, and she was there too?
Guest:She was there too.
Marc:Wow.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:She's less sensitive than I am.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:She's more callous Callan?
Guest:She's more of somebody who only deals with what she can see and measure.
Guest:She's not a head case like I am.
Marc:And what's her job?
Guest:She was a banker and then married a banker who retired at 40.
Marc:Oh, that's nice.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So they're doing good.
Guest:They're doing just fine.
Guest:They live in Bing Crosby's old house.
Marc:Oh, here.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Like Goldman Sachs type of shit?
Marc:That kind of shit.
Guest:Four kids.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That's a lot.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:He manages my money.
Guest:I'm ignorant.
Guest:I just give it to him.
Marc:Oh, and that works out.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know anything.
Marc:So you leave Saudi Arabia in a hurry?
Yeah.
Guest:Well, I mean, at the time, and probably still, you couldn't go to high school there if you were a foreigner.
Guest:They didn't have schools for foreigners.
Guest:So you had to go to boarding school.
Guest:So I had a choice between Switzerland or the United States.
Marc:But don't they send a lot of their, the rich, the upper class there, send a lot of their kids to boarding schools, right?
Marc:Yes, they do.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So Switzerland or the United States, those were your options.
Marc:And you're an American.
Marc:You're identifying as American.
Marc:You feel American.
Marc:Always identified as American.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because I wanted to be.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Well, you were, right?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:So you go to boarding school.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Where?
Guest:Field Mount Hermon.
Marc:Where's that?
Guest:Massachusetts for four years.
Guest:And was that one of those- That's when I became a wrestler, you guys.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:And was that one of those exclusive-
Marc:aristocracy.
Marc:No.
Marc:These guys are going to do things, boarding schools.
Guest:No, I didn't get into those schools.
Guest:I didn't get into Andover and Exeter.
Guest:I didn't have the grades, sir.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I went to a place called Northfield, Mount Hermit.
Guest:At the time, 55% of the kids there were on scholarship.
Guest:Uh-huh.
Guest:And we even had refugees.
Guest:We had kids who were older who went to school.
Guest:So it was almost like a college.
Guest:It was very diverse.
Marc:Right.
Guest:Really cool.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Really good experience.
Marc:Well-rounded life you've had.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:So what did you do there?
Marc:You wrestled?
Guest:Yeah, I wrestled.
Guest:I rolled around on the mat.
Guest:Jesus Christ.
Guest:That was a life-changing experience.
Guest:That's why I'll keep you busy if you come at me.
Guest:I'll meet you halfway, Mark.
Guest:I'm just saying.
Guest:You know that, though, bro.
Guest:You know that.
Guest:I mean, I assess you.
Guest:I just see openings when I look at you, bro.
Guest:I see openings is all I'm trying to say.
Guest:And I'm going to teach you how to close those openings down when you take my workshop.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:My man's got to know how to grapple.
Guest:If I get underhooks on you, you're going for a fucking ride, though.
Guest:You know that.
Guest:You know that.
Guest:I always bring it down to that.
Guest:I got a lot of soda in my voice right now.
Guest:You got a pocket knife.
Guest:I had a guy who knows about knives and he had a knife and he goes, I could open you up.
Guest:If I open you up, I start cutting your arms.
Guest:You lose hydraulics in eight seconds.
Guest:You lose hydraulics in eight seconds.
Guest:Who's that guy?
Guest:He's a guy who teaches knife fighting.
Guest:Why do I know him?
Guest:Because my friend was writing a book and I met him.
Guest:I had to come meet this guy.
Guest:And he's a knife expert.
Guest:You lose hydraulics.
Guest:You lose hydraulics in eight seconds.
Guest:He cuts your tendons?
Guest:I guess you can't move your arms.
Marc:I don't know.
Guest:I was like, oh, so a knife, you can kill me in eight seconds with a knife.
Guest:That's very true.
Guest:But do you hang out with these kind of guys all the time?
Guest:I don't.
Guest:I don't.
Guest:But I do like them.
Guest:Something about them.
Guest:I enjoy being included in a Spartans conversation.
Guest:So I have friends that were SEAL Team 6 guys, and I've always wanted to be that guy, partially.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And so when I get to hang out with them and talk like a man, you know, throw another surf on the fire, you know, that kind of stuff.
Guest:Stakes!
Guest:I love playing that character.
Marc:But you're not that guy?
Guest:No, I wish I would.
Marc:But you keep saying that.
Guest:You've got to be some version of it.
Guest:No, look, I need sleep.
Guest:I get colds easily, and I get cold easily.
Guest:I'm not buying it.
Marc:You seem like you could probably... I'll keep you busy.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:we've already established i'll keep you busy we've established i'll meet you halfway mark all right but i'm not gonna make it in the seal teams it would never happen i get cold too easily something would break but you didn't want to yeah but even if i wanted to i did sports long enough to know how tough i'm not really yeah somebody so you weren't a good wrestler i was a good wrestler yeah i was a good wrestler so what sport was it that taught you that you were not so tough
Guest:Uh, uh, well, I, I, I also fought, I also like competed in full contact Taekwondo.
Guest:In high school?
Guest:I know, in college and beyond.
Marc:All right, so you go to high school, you're wrestling?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:And no acting?
Marc:I go to college to wrestle.
Marc:Okay, but you're no acting in high school?
Guest:Uh, no.
Guest:So I'm acting in college.
Marc:Was that a big, like, is that, was that like a secret?
Marc:Did you not tell your jock friends that you were?
Guest:Well, I didn't have jock friends.
Guest:No, I didn't have jock friends.
Marc:Ever?
Guest:No, I never, I didn't watch, remember, I didn't grow up with American sports.
Guest:I didn't watch football.
Guest:I didn't grow up watching baseball.
Guest:So I didn't know how to have Sports Illustrated conversations.
Guest:In fact, I remember when I was getting on a plane and I saw two jockey guys with baseball hats and they were reading Sports Illustrated and they were talking.
Guest:And I knew I was going to sit next to them.
Guest:And I said to the, I said to the, uh, the flights and I said, Hey, is there any other seat?
Guest:I can't sit next to those guys.
Guest:Cause I'm going to have to talk to sports and I don't know sports and I'm going to have to fake it.
Guest:And I don't have the energy.
Guest:I mean, that's the, that's a true story.
Marc:Did she give you another seat?
Guest:She did.
Marc:She got me.
Marc:Oh really?
Marc:You switched out with somebody?
Guest:I switched out.
Marc:So you didn't have to do that thing?
Guest:I just, yeah.
Guest:I said my back or something.
Guest:You can't do that now?
Guest:Well, I can talk sports, but I'm going to be general with you.
Guest:I can talk MMA, mixed martial arts.
Guest:I like boxing and mixed martial arts.
Guest:I like the fight game because you can't fake it.
Marc:Okay, so you're on a wrestling scholarship?
Guest:No, I went to college to wrestle.
Guest:I was going to wrestle in college.
Guest:Hurt my back.
Guest:I had gone to Dan Gable's wrestling camp in Iowa.
Marc:Should I know that?
Guest:It's a nightmare.
Guest:Dan Gable was an Olympian who won a gold medal and didn't have a point scored against him.
Marc:But every wrestling kid knows that camp.
Guest:Every wrestling kid knows that Dan Gable and that camp.
Guest:And it was the craziest thing I'd ever been to.
Guest:And I went, I'm 17, I go, this is what D1 wrestling is.
Guest:I came back my senior year and beat everybody but I think one person.
Guest:But I was like, if that's what D1 wrestling is, sucking weight and working that hard, I don't like it enough.
Guest:So that's where you realized it.
Guest:Yeah, and then I wanted to learn how to, again, I wanted to know how to do karate and martial arts.
Marc:And you went to the camp in high school one summer?
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Or two summers.
Guest:One summer.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you were good, though.
Marc:I guess so.
Marc:But you made a choice.
Marc:Better than I should have been.
Marc:You're like, fuck this.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you stayed in the game and you kept in more elastic professions.
Guest:I'll bear down if I have to.
Marc:Right.
Marc:But you wanted to open it up a little.
Marc:I don't know the lingo.
Guest:No, I love the way you're talking.
Guest:I love the way you're talking.
Guest:You wanted to open it up.
Guest:You're going to take my lingo class, my workshop.
Guest:It's not a class.
Guest:But I had my first experience.
Guest:I grew up thinking that a man was a prototype.
Guest:My father was a prototype.
Guest:Marine, 6'4", 250.
Guest:Oh, he's a Marine.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:A badass.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I grew up not being that.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And thinking that's what a man was.
Marc:So that was your struggle.
Guest:There you go.
Guest:And for the first time, I was 23.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And my wonderful acting teacher, Richard Pinter, from the Neighborhood Playhouse, I went to audition.
Guest:I was terrified.
Guest:New York?
Guest:Yeah, I want to be an actor.
Guest:Terrified.
Guest:And he was a giant, he had this giant mustache.
Guest:He was a gay man with a big mustache.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:How'd that make you feel?
Guest:Well, we dated for a while and I realized I was straight.
Guest:Oh, good.
Guest:I had no choice.
Guest:Nice.
Guest:No, he had this mustache.
Guest:He was a macho guy, but he was the first guy to kind of say, hey, you're emotional.
Guest:You're not a dog.
Guest:You're not a bear.
Guest:You're a cat.
Guest:And that's okay because that's a form of masculinity.
Guest:Stop trying to be a tough guy.
Guest:Masculine men can be funny and sensitive and they can cry.
Yeah.
Guest:Did you cry then?
Guest:I've always been emotional.
Guest:In that moment, I hope you cried.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I spent my whole life trying to be something else.
Marc:I'm really coming clean on this podcast.
Marc:Are you?
Marc:Nobody listens though, right?
Marc:No, not at all.
Marc:Not at all.
Marc:No, but that's very interesting because it seems like that struggle is what's made you, is your whole personality.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:Really?
Marc:Like, you know who you are, but what you want to be is still sort of overbearing.
Marc:Of course.
Guest:Of course.
Guest:I'd have to trust.
Guest:Well, who I really am is hard to face.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Well, you'd probably still be with the guy with the big mustache.
Guest:That's it.
Guest:I'd be scrubbing his floor and wearing that blonde wig as he calls me his Dutch boy.
Guest:Whatever you want.
Guest:Well, it was his 20 bucks and I needed help with my rent.
Guest:You're a cat.
Guest:Why do you got to bring up these traumatic memories?
Guest:You're a cat.
Guest:I'm a cat.
Guest:He called me kitten.
Guest:There's no shame in being a cat, Brian.
Marc:all right finally well I guess it started with Mark Maron when he gave me permission to be a kitten so but okay but when okay so I'm just trying to track this so you go for the wrestling but you start doing theater when does that like really when do you like because that must have been some sort of big decision
Guest:I think so.
Marc:In college?
Guest:The big decision was deciding to actually try to be an actor.
Guest:I was working at... I worked at Lehman Brothers.
Guest:Where did you go to college?
Guest:American University.
Guest:Where's that?
Marc:Oh, in DC?
Marc:In DC.
Marc:Oh, okay.
Guest:History major.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And then I talked my way into a job at Lehman Brothers.
Guest:I then...
Guest:I then had this crisis after about 18 months.
Guest:I woke up from a nap.
Marc:As a banker?
Marc:You were working as a banker?
Guest:I sure was.
Guest:Huh.
Guest:And I woke up with this crisis.
Guest:I said, if I don't try to be an actor, I think I'm going to become a very small person.
Guest:I could feel myself becoming small and petty.
Marc:Small in a suit.
Guest:Yeah, I was terrible.
Guest:I didn't like myself very much.
Marc:But you've done some plays?
Marc:You got the bug somewhere?
Guest:I had done plays in college.
Marc:Like what?
Marc:Like big parts?
Guest:I did a play called As Is.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I played a gay guy.
Guest:That was kind of shocking and very weird for me as a straight kid.
Guest:To play that.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I mean, I met a guy who had AIDS.
Guest:This is 1988.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And he was dying, and I knew he was going to die.
Guest:That was a terrifying disease for us back then.
Guest:Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
Guest:Still pretty terrifying.
Guest:Of course it is, but it was such a death sentence back then.
Guest:Yeah, yeah, it was like it was just a... And you and I both saw people, I'm sure.
Guest:You watched them die slowly and very undignified, very difficult.
Guest:But then I did some other plays and then I quit.
Guest:I said, this is silly.
Guest:I need to come to my senses and be this, that, and the other thing.
Guest:Be your dad.
Guest:I heard a woman talking.
Guest:Mm-hmm.
Guest:I think it was INPR somewhere, and she was dying of breast cancer.
Guest:And she knew she was going to die, and somebody said to her, what would you do differently?
Guest:And she said, I wouldn't do anything because it made sense.
Guest:And I said, fuck, man, I'm being way too sensible.
Guest:And this is another weird... It's a hell of a quote.
Marc:It's so funny.
Marc:You don't know who said that.
Marc:I don't know who said that.
Marc:I wouldn't do anything.
Guest:I heard Joe Rogan say that later on to me.
Guest:And I never forgot it because I didn't tell him that I had heard it before.
Guest:But I remember thinking to myself, I heard that quote too.
Guest:I didn't want to ruin it because it was such a sacred thing for him.
Guest:I think he told me it.
Marc:Well, I'm just surprised you're both listening to NPR, and that's nice.
Guest:Yeah, I don't know what heat we're hearing, but yes, yes.
Guest:We're intellectuals, dude.
Guest:We read.
Guest:Yeah, so then I heard Springsteen sing Johnny 99 on that live album.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:And I went, and it was a confluence of that, watching this guy named Robert De Niro do a movie called Raging Bull.
Guest:I didn't know anything about him or Springsteen.
Guest:I was way too old to not know who those guys were.
Guest:When this was in college.
Guest:I didn't grow up in this country.
Guest:It was right after college.
Guest:And I said, I have to do something in that world.
Guest:I have to.
Guest:Those seminal moments and experiences are just what kind of, what drives you to desperation.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:A crisis in who do I want to be and where do I want to go?
Guest:Again, get complicated.
Guest:If I talk about this stuff, I'm really killing the audience.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:No, but that would be- So that was the moment though, that's the crisis.
Marc:You're doing your Lehman Brothers thing and you just saw the portal where what your life would look like.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:And you're like, fuck it.
Guest:I can't.
Guest:I didn't care enough about money.
Guest:I didn't want my life at the end.
Guest:I didn't want my sort of the culmination of my life to be a number.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That didn't make sense to me.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:No, it feels like I never thought that much about money.
Guest:No, I know you didn't.
Marc:Yeah, I mean, it's weird.
Marc:I mean, I should have maybe, but I didn't.
Guest:Well, I was never strategic either.
Guest:I wasn't good at business.
Guest:I wasn't good at making friends that way.
Marc:We built a business out of this thing, but neither me nor my producer, my business partner, we didn't really know.
Marc:We weren't entrepreneurs, but we knew we had something, and no one really knew how to make money at it, so we kind of built it with the medium itself as time went on.
Marc:But it was never my drive.
Guest:No.
Guest:You're one of the best interviewers.
Guest:You know, Dove Davidoff was saying that about you the other day.
Marc:Where's he at?
Guest:He said he's in New York.
Guest:But he said, Maren is one of the best interviewers, period.
Marc:That's nice of him to say.
Guest:It's also true, but, you know.
Marc:Yeah, no, it's nice.
Marc:But, you know, Dove and I have a tense relationship at times.
Guest:Well, Dove has a tense relationship with himself.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:One of my favorite people on the planet.
Guest:Dove went to therapy and the therapist looked at him.
Guest:I said, do you think you have a right to exist?
Guest:And he goes, not really.
Marc:I used to bring him on stage at this store.
Marc:It was so mean.
Marc:I'd call him the thinking man's moron.
Marc:I like it.
Marc:No, I like him.
Marc:I do like him, and I know he struggles, and I'm glad that he said a nice thing about me.
Marc:All right, so you have this crisis, this dark night of the soul that involved Springsteen, De Niro, and a random thing you heard on NPR.
Guest:That's right, and the random thing I heard.
Guest:And guys, that was the crucible.
Guest:That's where I made my choice.
Marc:It was dark, man.
Guest:That's where I resisted the temptation to be ordinary, and now I'm extraordinary.
Guest:I broke myself from the cross, unlike Christ.
Guest:I mended my side.
Guest:Yeah, there you go.
Guest:And my stigmata.
Marc:And you went right out into the street and started doing a monologue.
Guest:I picked up the jawbone of an ass, and I slew the Romans.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:What did you do?
Marc:Did you go and quit your job?
Guest:I went and joined the neighborhood playhouse.
Guest:I studied with Sandy Meisner for six weeks.
Guest:The real guy.
Guest:He had a voice box.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:From smoking.
Marc:So you were with Meisner, the actual Meisner of the Meisner technique.
Guest:That's where I get my talent.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That's where I get my craft.
Guest:And then I came to, when I came to LA, I got MADtv.
Guest:But wait, what about Meisner?
Guest:How long were you there?
Guest:I was there for two years.
Guest:Not with Sandy Meisner, only six weeks studied with him, but I was at his school for two years.
Marc:And that was the first training, really?
Marc:That was the first training.
Marc:And Meisner is sort of like an offshoot of the method.
Guest:He wasn't as method in a lot of ways.
Guest:He was about listening and answering.
Guest:He was that mammoth school of acting, which, by the way, I think is limited.
Marc:Mammoth School is the Atlantic School.
Marc:The idea of Mammoth is stick to the lines and the character will come.
Guest:Yeah, Mammoth simplifies it by saying you come to a scene and an actor, you want something from the other person.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And acting is doing and get what you want.
Guest:I like simplification like that, but like anything else, it becomes a little bit more than that.
Marc:Meisner was just listening and repeating and...
Guest:Meisner was essentially an ounce of behavior is worth a pound of words, these sayings, but really it was about being honest.
Guest:What is your honest impulse?
Guest:When you really listen and answer and you're present, you will give an honest performance.
Guest:I think the problem with that is it emphasized...
Guest:Dueling, not loving, and scenes, most scenes are love scenes.
Guest:I think most scenes in every movie is a love scene of one kind or another.
Guest:Oh, yeah?
Guest:I do.
Guest:I think everything is...
Guest:Is a love scene.
Guest:Even that famous scene in Quentin Tarantino in True Romance where Walken's going to kill.
Guest:Oh, yeah.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:Well, that feels like that.
Marc:That's a love scene.
Marc:Yeah, I can see that.
Marc:It just is.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:He kisses him in the end.
Marc:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Guest:And then blows his fucking brains out.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Kiss of death.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:It's like Michael kissed Fredo, too.
Marc:It's not good.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I get that feeling every time Joe hugs me.
Yeah.
Marc:He's a thick kid.
Marc:Give me a hug.
Marc:I'm like, oh, am I going down?
Marc:What's going to happen?
Guest:He might just take you.
Guest:I was picked up.
Guest:A guy named Shane Carwin, heavyweight, in the UFC picked me up and started to squeeze me.
Guest:I'm a grown man.
Guest:And I said, I'm going to die.
Guest:I couldn't breathe.
Guest:And I started tapping.
Guest:And he said, that's a quarter of my strength.
Marc:Was that just the hello?
Guest:He just wanted to let me know.
Guest:Where I stood in the pecking order.
Marc:See, that world, I don't know about that.
Guest:I need you to get comfortable with it.
Guest:You're going to join a jujitsu class.
Guest:We're going to roll around.
Guest:You'll get staph infection.
Marc:Don't worry about it.
Marc:I'm a relatively athletic guy, but the competition part of it, I don't need.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I'm not a competitive guy.
Guest:I'm not going to play you in tennis and keep score.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I don't give a shit.
Guest:If it comes to golf, I'm going to cheat.
Marc:But if it's two of you guys jumping around, kicking and punching, someone's going down.
Guest:No.
Guest:When you box, even when I box, I get no...
Guest:I don't get any dissatisfaction from actually hitting you really hard and hurting you.
Guest:I like the idea that I can.
Guest:I like working on patterns and stuff like that.
Guest:I like getting better at something that's impossible to get good at.
Marc:So it's about you.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:But is that you being afraid of competition?
Marc:You're just accepting that you're not going to win?
Guest:Well, boxing is always terrifying.
Guest:When I get a text from my trainer that says, bring your headgear and your mouthpiece.
Guest:You're sparring today.
Guest:I get nervous.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Because I don't know what's going to happen.
Marc:Have you broke your nose?
Guest:Yes, many times.
Guest:But that was from Taekwondo.
Marc:Really?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But so wait, where'd the Taekwondo, where'd the- That was college.
Guest:I decided not to wrestle and decided I wanted to learn how to kick and punch.
Guest:And you know how to do that?
Guest:I mean, I have too many friends that are pro fighters.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:But I mean- Well, I mean, I play guitar.
Marc:The answer is to an extent, yeah.
Marc:I'm okay at guitar.
Marc:Yeah, okay.
Marc:So you're pretty good at that.
Guest:So maybe, you know.
Guest:I mean, I'm an old man now, but you know, I- You did all right?
Guest:At one point I thought I was, I competed and I was okay.
Marc:Did it help you with acting?
Guest:No.
Marc:Nothing?
Guest:I don't think so.
Marc:Because you have a different disposition.
Marc:There's a communication necessary, a physical communication in these things.
Guest:I tell you what, I was playing golf with a guy who was a professional.
Guest:He said to me, you have great body awareness.
Hmm.
Guest:If I tell you to do something, you do it.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because you know how to tell your body to do that.
Marc:Right.
Guest:So he said, you're a good athlete in that sense.
Marc:And you're elastic.
Guest:I'll take that.
Marc:You're elastic.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:I know how to communicate with my body.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:But if I could have done it all over again, rather than... I never felt safe.
Guest:So that's why I wrestled and did Taekwondo.
Marc:I didn't feel safe.
Marc:What do you mean?
Guest:I didn't feel safe in the world.
Marc:In general.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And I didn't want to... I couldn't bear to be vulnerable.
Marc:Did you...
Guest:So I should have spent the time I spent in wrestling and in taekwondo and all that other stuff and jujitsu and maybe even boxing.
Guest:I should have spent that time learning how to dance and sing.
Guest:Sure.
Guest:And play an instrument.
Guest:And cry a little bit.
Guest:Well, I can cry, dude.
Guest:You haven't seen my drama reel, but I'll show it to you after this.
Marc:Well, I know you can maybe cry on purpose, but I mean, I get what you're saying, but you still track all that inability to be vulnerable back to the, you know, I got to go, you know, running out of countries.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:And also maybe your dad was not the big emoter.
Guest:My father looked at emotion as a weakness, sir.
Guest:He was an Irish Marine.
Guest:So you're not crying at the fucking... You're not crying in the household, sir.
Guest:All right?
Guest:Don't dress too fancy and don't be crying.
Guest:All right?
Guest:Because you're a boy and I'm going to forge you into a man.
Guest:So we're not going to get emotional.
Guest:Because emotions and things like therapy are for the weak.
Guest:yeah that was it that's right you're talking about a 1950s male yeah marine right the fuck out of here yeah in fact my mother said she'd never seen him cry and and the only time he cried was when his best friend was killed in a plane crash in the marines yeah and that cried cried he probably cried like this at the at the at the funeral kind of stood there went and then he was done
Marc:And that's just a story you heard.
Marc:Fuck, and that's just a story.
Marc:You don't even know if it's true.
Guest:Probably bit down on his belt.
Marc:And then grew a mustache in that moment.
Marc:So vulnerability was tricky.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:It still is.
Guest:Why are you opening me up like a fucking wound over here?
Marc:Jesus, Maren.
Marc:Because that's what we have together.
Marc:It's like I always looked at you as a wounded person.
Marc:i know i am i don't i don't think i ever registered maybe like maybe i should have no you thought of me as a little bit tougher than i am well i don't i don't i didn't think of you as sad i mean you know i don't think i'm sad i'm i'm i'm not a sad guy and i'm i'm i'm just not yeah yeah a lot of that also has to do with your song and dance man
Guest:yeah i i i'm the justin bieber i'm the justin timberlake slash bieber yeah of comedy you do very orchestrated bits a lot of moving parts all i'm gonna say is if i had applied myself yeah i could have danced and sung with the best of them isn't that funny that line if i if i just applied myself i love that i don't know well i could have played pro but i chose to go to insurance instead fuck off
Marc:so okay so meisner you you take that in but it seems like you really absorbed it like you know at that time you were like you know there there are different approaches to what i want to do and i'm going to approach it like i would a sport and learn how to fucking do this yes i wanted to be a yes i wanted to be a good actor i wanted but you were like you were open to that i mean whether you're vulnerable or not you were like you know like what what it what you know what what's the uh how do i get the tools you know what's the game
Guest:Yes.
Guest:And in LA, I learned really how to act under Jeffrey Tambor and a guy named Milton Gonzalez, now deceased.
Guest:Their tutelage where- What was that school?
Guest:The Beverly Hills Playhouse.
Marc:Was that the culty one?
Guest:Yes, that was in Going Clear.
Guest:So a lot of Scientology involved.
Marc:See, like that was also hanging over you a little bit in my mind.
Marc:Like, you know, because you're one of those guys years ago where he's like, you know, Callan's in the cult acting class.
Guest:No, I've never been in Scientology.
Marc:No, I know, but like for some reason that school had a reputation.
Guest:They left me alone.
Marc:I'm not accusing you.
Marc:I want you to explain to me.
Guest:So what happened was that was the teacher, the teachers, Jeffrey and Milton, were both Scientologists.
Guest:They both left the church.
Guest:And when they left the church, all the Scientologists in the class left the class.
Marc:Oh, so you were there when that happened?
Marc:Yes.
Marc:So it was a little more focused attention from the teachers, I guess.
Guest:You know, you never really... There were words used in the class about Scientology, like you're having PTSD or PTS, which means a potential trouble source.
Guest:So there's somebody in your life who's being suppressive.
Guest:And some of that stuff was very helpful, frankly.
Guest:I mean, it's not like all of Scientology, from what I... No, no, no.
Marc:Look, I know there's people I respect as writers who were able to glean...
Marc:things from the system that helped them.
Marc:And I think that there was a time when people didn't get all in where they could go for a year and come out with some tools.
Marc:But was the sense that before the class or the school unscientologized that it was some sort of recruiting arm?
Guest:I saw that happen.
Guest:I saw that happen.
Guest:I saw actors who were struggling and I saw people...
Guest:say, you know, you could use some... Clear.
Guest:Yeah, there's something going on with you.
Guest:Why are you sick?
Guest:And I saw certain people join the church that way.
Marc:Do they stay in?
Guest:I don't know, but they stopped acting.
Guest:I remember that.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, I never heard from them again.
Marc:Huh.
Marc:But you stayed there at the school.
Guest:I stayed because I was under, I got into the Saturday class with Milton Gonzalez when Burt Reynolds would come by and Neil Simon would be there and all these, Anthony Hopkins would come.
Guest:I mean, I'm talking about real actors that would come by and do scenes.
Guest:Doris Roberts.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:These people would, Hall of Famers would do scenes in my class.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And sometimes you'd get to do scenes with them.
Guest:Oh, wow.
Guest:Gene Reynolds, creator of MASH.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Would write, wrote a scene that I was in.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Come on.
Guest:I mean, that's, you know, you can't argue with that shit.
Marc:And were you always somebody who, like, was proficient at, you know, broad characters?
Marc:Like, I mean, because, like, I mean, you seem to have the nuts and bolts in place, but you're very quick to kind of, you know, do a character.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And you can do that.
Marc:Like, I can't really do that.
Marc:I don't have, to me, it's too...
Guest:You just haven't, first of all, that's not true.
Marc:I can't surrender to it.
Guest:Well, no, no, because you haven't had anybody, you haven't been put in a position where you had to try and learn how to do it.
Guest:Right.
Guest:That's all.
Guest:And it's very uncomfortable.
Guest:Right.
Guest:But the reason I did that was because, frankly, I wasn't getting a job by walking into the room.
Guest:I'm a medium white guy.
Guest:There's nothing about me physically where you're going to go, let's get the guy with brown hair and brown eyes who's 5'11", 170.
Guest:I'm sorry.
Guest:And I knew that very quickly.
Guest:I went on an audition when I was a young man for cute guys in suits.
Guest:And I wore a suit.
Guest:And then I got there and I saw what Hollywood cute guys were.
Guest:I started laughing.
Guest:These are the best guys I've ever fucking seen.
Guest:This is what a cute guy is.
Guest:I'm a fucking spore.
Guest:I'm a mushroom with eyes next to these guys.
Guest:So I said, I gotta be funny.
Guest:Patty Jenkins, who was my girlfriend for a long time, who directed Wonder Woman and wrote and directed Monster, she was the one who said,
Guest:Hey, jackass, you're trying to be Robert De Niro.
Guest:You're trying to be brooding.
Guest:You're not.
Guest:You're funny.
Guest:Stand up comedy.
Guest:Do that.
Marc:Oh, really?
Guest:Yes.
Guest:She's the one who got me into stand up.
Marc:I forgot that you were a comic there for a minute.
Marc:So when did you start doing that?
Marc:In New York?
Guest:In New York.
Guest:I would do those shows that you were always the star of.
Marc:Right, that's where you started, right?
Marc:Yeah, okay, because that's where I met you, but you had already been acting for a while.
Guest:Yes.
Marc:Like you'd already been working a little bit.
Guest:I'd been doing plays, and I'd done, I think I met you actually after MADtv, that's right.
Guest:Really?
Guest:Yeah, I think.
Guest:What year was that?
Guest:No, that's not true, that's not true, because in fact, Dave Becky, who I always credit for giving me my start,
Guest:You were one of his guys?
Guest:Dave Becky.
Guest:Nope.
Guest:Dave Becky saw a tape of mine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And Dave Becky said, you're talented.
Guest:I want you to come down and do rebar.
Marc:Right.
Marc:So rebar was the pre-Luna.
Marc:Yes.
Marc:Luna.
Guest:Yep.
Guest:That was when Amy Poehler and Upright Citizens Brigade would do like-
Guest:It was that weird place.
Marc:It wasn't even a good place.
Marc:It was that back room.
Marc:There were no chairs.
Marc:And there was a very uncomfortable stool type of situation.
Marc:And everybody sat on the floor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:19 what?
Guest:1994 maybe?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:93, 94.
Guest:And I fucking... I remember I had my first little small victories there.
Guest:I'd get up and I made people laugh.
Guest:You were doing characters?
Guest:I wasn't.
Guest:I was doing...
Guest:I was just doing weird shit.
Guest:I would do like more performance art.
Guest:It worked.
Guest:It would work.
Guest:And I was like, I can't believe I'm doing this or I get to do this.
Guest:And then a manager saw me, put me up for MADtv.
Guest:Becky?
Guest:No, Ken Trush.
Guest:And he saw me and a show called MADtv came along.
Guest:And I auditioned and I got the job.
Marc:And you were in the first crew of Mad TV?
Guest:I was, original cast member.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:Not ready for the job, not experienced, but didn't really belong.
Marc:And you had to do characters.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:But you had been doing a little of that.
Guest:Again, this is where desperation comes in.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:You know, the audition required five characters.
Guest:I was so afraid.
Guest:I was so genuinely terrified I wasn't ever going to work.
Guest:right and make it yeah that that you know when i went in for that audition i've never wanted anything that bad in my life to the point where if i didn't get it i would have died yeah i couldn't go back to hoboken new jersey and be a temp at goldman sachs i just couldn't do it is that what you were doing yes i just couldn't do it so you'd fallen back into the banking world somehow well i was just temping i was doing whatever i could and they liked me so i stayed there for a little i was you know making coffee
Marc:So who was in that crew, the original crew?
Marc:I can't remember.
Guest:Orlando Jones, Nicole Sullivan, Phil Lamar, who's got a huge voiceover career and so talented.
Guest:Artie Lang.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Our dear Artie Lang.
Guest:Oof.
Guest:I know.
Guest:I worry about him.
Guest:I don't know what happened, but- It keeps happening.
Guest:I know.
Guest:And Deborah Wilson.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Marc:Deborah Wilson.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I remember Deborah Wilson.
Yeah.
Marc:From the Village Gate, from that improv crew.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:That piggy story that Artie talks about when we did Babe Watch, he was dressed like a pig and he was doing blow.
Guest:I threatened his coke dealer that day.
Marc:You did?
Marc:Why?
Marc:To get away from him?
Guest:I was young and I was a hothead back then, my friend.
Guest:I said some nasty things to him.
Marc:To the coke dealer.
Guest:Yeah, I was ready to fight him.
Marc:Why?
Guest:Because I thought he was taking my friend away from me.
Guest:And you were right.
Guest:It wasn't my place.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:It wasn't my place.
Marc:Did you get into a lot of real fights?
Marc:Nope.
Guest:I've been in them, but no.
Guest:No?
Guest:No, I was always too cautious.
Guest:But yeah, I mean, I've been in, I suppose, for lack of a better word, I've been in those, you know, when I was young.
Marc:You're not going to take any shit.
Guest:I'll meet him halfway.
Guest:Kept a couple guys busy, Mark.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:I mean, if I have to open up on you, I mean, I see openings.
Guest:It's a free country.
Guest:A man can't take a couple openings.
Guest:You're going to come at me with your arms down.
Guest:I see it.
Guest:For me, you call yourself a man.
Guest:I see a target.
Guest:That's all.
Guest:Just come correct, Mark.
Guest:If you're going to come at me, come correct.
Guest:Because I'm going to meet you.
Guest:Who is that guy?
Guest:I don't know.
Guest:I just love that.
Guest:I love that.
Guest:It's like my friend who asked a Delta Force guy, this elite commander, you ever kill anybody?
Guest:And he goes, never stop to look, brother.
Guest:I want to be that guy.
Marc:You still want to be that guy.
Guest:Of course I want to be that guy.
Marc:But I've seen you do a lot of little parts of movies where you're different types of people.
Marc:You've played Middle Eastern people.
Marc:You've played Israeli.
Marc:Sure.
Marc:Same thing.
Guest:Yeah, Middle Eastern, Israeli.
Guest:I go from Italian to Israeli porn star.
Marc:Greek.
Marc:Have you done a Greek guy?
Guest:It's all the same fucking, it's all the same character.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:when i did hangover i did that character i did hangover too and i came with all these different characters you know maybe he's spanning himself like ariana huffington and he talks like this yeah they're like now do that do eddie do the same character we'll just put you in a wig and darken your skin i'm like no but they'll know he's like todd phillips like you're not that important they're not gonna know just do what i tell you i was like all right i just work with him i did the joker i did too that's right you did the joker did joaquin say anything to you did you say hi or bye
Marc:He said, I think at one point, you know, when he drifted out of character for a second, he went, Marin.
Marc:Wow.
Marc:That was about it.
Marc:But then it was interesting because in the scene, he decided, you know, in that scene with the three of us that he was not going to acknowledge me at all.
Marc:But it was a good choice.
Guest:No, 100%.
Guest:The guy's a real method actor.
Guest:He's a great actor.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And in five days, I don't think he looked at me once.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:And that's fine.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Because whatever he has to do to get to that point is the most important thing.
Guest:He only talked to Todd.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And look, that kind of discipline.
Guest:I can't do that.
Guest:I'm not that kind of actor.
Guest:I don't want to be that guy.
Guest:I'm not that guy.
Guest:I, you know, that's a very special.
Marc:But aren't you happy that, you know, you have enough experience?
Marc:Like, because there's part of you when you're on those sets, you know, and like, I'm so grateful because it's happened to me when I'm, you know, as old as I am is the first time I'm doing that.
Marc:But, you know, you really realize, like, this is a professional environment.
Marc:I'm not going to like, you're not going to sit there like, I'm just going to wait for my window to.
Marc:Just say hi to connect and connect with Joaquin.
Guest:I don't give a fuck.
Guest:By the way, I can't do what you can do.
Guest:You can't do what I can do.
Marc:Right.
Marc:Why are you yelling at me now?
Guest:Because now I'm going low again, bro.
Guest:I'm going low.
Guest:This is where it starts.
Guest:Joaquin, if there's a problem, I'm elastic, I'm facile.
Guest:You're going to meet him halfway?
Guest:And I'll meet you halfway, bro.
Guest:I'll meet you more than halfway, okay?
Marc:But your regular gig now is sort of the Goldbergs, yeah?
Guest:So I have a, yes, but they gave me my own show, me and Tim Meadows.
Guest:Oh, really?
Guest:Yeah, and my wonderful co-stars.
Marc:Oh, schooled?
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And that has not been on yet?
Guest:It's 13 episodes.
Guest:We're doing very well in the ratings.
Guest:I hear good things.
Guest:We'll see what happens.
Marc:Really?
Marc:And it's your show?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Look, it only took me 25 years to make it in Hollywood.
Guest:I'm trying to work on this new show for it.
Guest:You've been working a long time.
Guest:I know, but come on.
Guest:To have my own show?
Marc:To be the star of a show is good.
Guest:It's a lot of responsibility.
Guest:I'm used to being the other guy.
Guest:Now I'm on my feet all day.
Marc:Do you think about it differently?
Marc:Oh, it's just like, yeah, you're old and tiring.
Marc:It's less waiting.
Guest:There's less waiting.
Guest:There's more money, but you spend what you make.
Marc:Do you?
Guest:In a way.
Marc:Well, you have kids.
Marc:I got kids.
Marc:How many?
Guest:Two.
Marc:Uh-huh.
Marc:How old?
Guest:Seven and ten.
Marc:He has a lot of money going in.
Guest:It's an interesting thing with those because they're human beings.
Guest:Their happiness is more important than your own in many ways.
Guest:That's a very weird place to be.
Marc:Well, no, I think that's a responsible way to be.
Guest:Well, yeah, it definitely is.
Guest:It's a great thing, but it's also scary, man.
Guest:I don't like loving something that much.
Marc:Why?
Marc:Are you afraid?
Guest:I mean, Jesus Christ.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:I can't imagine it.
Marc:I've said it before, but I'm worried about the kids I didn't have in my mind.
Marc:I know.
Marc:Oh, yeah.
Guest:No, you would be a neurotic mess.
Guest:Where is it?
Guest:What time is it?
Guest:Exactly.
Guest:It's hard not to be that way.
Guest:Because the idea that something would happen to them is, you know.
Marc:Devastating.
Marc:Oh my God.
Marc:You can't even think about it.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:And what about you?
Marc:How have you changed?
Guest:For me, it's about keeping my bench press and my squat where it was when I was 30.
Guest:And that's pretty much the only thing I give a fuck about.
Guest:And keeping my hand speed up.
Guest:You know that, though.
Guest:You know that.
Guest:Sure, buddy.
Guest:You know that.
Guest:But also my kicks.
Guest:I got to go low and high.
Guest:And a lot of guys at my age stop kicking to the head.
Guest:That's why I stretch.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:That's why stretching is so important.
Guest:It's so important, yeah.
Guest:And you and I are going to do some stretching after this podcast.
Marc:I'm looking forward to it.
Marc:That was the only reason I had you on.
Guest:Do you have a hot room here?
Guest:Do you have a hot room?
Marc:Of course.
Marc:I just got to go turn on the faucet.
Guest:Good, good.
Guest:Get that steam.
Guest:I'll stretch you out and we'll see what happens.
Guest:You got a mustache?
Guest:The night is still young.
Guest:Is it big enough, my mustache?
Guest:Fuck yeah, and I brought some blow, blow, blow.
Marc:echo and echo i know you're sober but listen yeah listen this one time this one time this one time bro well you'll focus we'll do another podcast talk we're back uh hey guys yeah yeah yeah maren did blow for the first time in 20 years i'm gonna get him going it's gonna be great but uh but you but you know it seems like you're you're proactive and you're trying to be a better man
Guest:It's all you can do.
Marc:Is it?
Guest:It's all you can do.
Guest:There's a Zen poet who wrote a poem, book, really, that said one continuous mistake.
Guest:And life is essentially that.
Guest:Life is sort of this idea that you're presented with the situation.
Guest:You've got to kind of improvise your way out of it.
Guest:You're going to make mistakes.
Marc:Sure.
Guest:Right?
Guest:So in that sense, you've got to be forgiving when you do.
Marc:I think so.
Marc:I think it's good not to beat the shit out of yourself all the time.
Guest:Yeah, I just recently started doing that.
Marc:Not doing it?
Guest:Yeah, I always, it's so funny you say that.
Guest:I always, and I didn't even realize I did it.
Guest:I just always was comparing myself to fucking, you know, Michelangelo.
Guest:Like I'm not suffering enough and I'm lazy.
Guest:And finally I was like, hey, I'm doing, I'm trying really hard, man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Most of the time.
Guest:Right.
Guest:And, you know, and I am deeply flawed, but I'm, I mean, sometimes you do, you got to leave yourself the fuck alone, man.
Marc:It's a little easier as you get older because like certain things stop mattering.
Guest:That's right.
Marc:But like, you know, but I assume like, I mean, I can only imagine like, you know, living up, growing up with a father who was fundamentally a Marine, you know, you're going to be kind of hard on yourself.
Guest:I think so.
Marc:Because if you're not like him, that little him inside your brain is just going to live there.
Marc:What are you doing?
Guest:Are you ready for a life and death situation?
Guest:It becomes this whole weird thing.
Guest:What happens when somebody closes in on me?
Guest:If I got to protect my family from a gang wielding machetes, I got to be ready.
Guest:Those are questions.
Guest:I think about that shit all the time.
Guest:First time I ever shot a deer, it was my friend, Steve Rinella.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Maybe it was Ryan Callahan.
Guest:I think they said something like, that was a good shot.
Guest:Have you shot before?
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I said, no.
Guest:But I've been doing that in my mind my whole life.
Guest:I've been up on a hill defending my territory for the barbarians.
Marc:Are you a hunter?
Guest:I'm not a hunter, but I have hunted a number of times on the show Meat Eater with Joe Rogan.
Guest:Turkey, deer, Alaska, Montana, Napa Valley.
Marc:But turkey, I can get that.
Marc:But did you feel bad for the deer?
Guest:Yes, I love venison.
Guest:I love hunting, mainly because you're miserable and you bond.
Guest:But killing the animal, and I will say that in my kills, I've dropped the animal immediately.
Guest:And that's because I...
Guest:I think I'm so afraid I'm going to hurt it.
Guest:So I want it to die right away.
Guest:But I don't like killing the animal.
Marc:I like the differentiation between hurt and kill.
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:I'll wing you.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:As a warning.
Guest:But only if you're a man.
Guest:You understand?
Guest:I'll wing you.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I don't know what that is.
Guest:I heard a great football player.
Guest:Who was it?
Guest:Daryl Dawkins or Brian Dawkins from Philadelphia?
Guest:You're asking the wrong guy.
Guest:Okay.
Guest:He was a safety for the Eagles and a great Hall of Fame player.
Guest:And he said, well, I don't swear.
Guest:He said, you don't swear.
Guest:He goes, no, I don't swear.
Guest:I'm a righteous man.
Guest:I'm a religious man.
Guest:I don't swear.
Guest:Now, that doesn't mean I'm not going to put my medicine on you.
Guest:I might have to put some medicine on you.
Guest:i never forgot that so when he puts his medicine on now i'll keep you honest that's that's the other thing i wish i'd said i'll put my man now doesn't now i'm a good guy mark you know i'm a good guy i do yeah now you come at me you come at me a little too too strongly yeah i'll put my medicine on you understand i do all right that's all i'm saying i put my medicine on you okay yeah all right so so we've established that i'm i i can talk tough
Marc:Yeah, I think we have.
Marc:But I also think that there's another layer.
Marc:Hopefully.
Marc:No, no, I think that you can talk tough and then claim that you're just talking tough.
Marc:But I think if it came down to brass tacks, you're probably pretty tough.
Guest:I work hard at least having an answer, a physical answer.
Marc:I think this whole sort of like, hey, I'm just a cat, I think that's a layer of bullshit.
Guest:You know I can tuck my chin and throw down.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:Yeah.
Guest:And by the way, I can pull back and make you miss and make you pay for extending.
Guest:I appreciate the charm.
Guest:Yeah, yeah.
Guest:But at the end of the day, you're looking at my hands.
Guest:You're looking at the glint in my eye.
Guest:And you know.
Guest:Nothing but trouble.
Guest:You won.
Guest:You won.
Guest:You're going to have your hands full, bro.
Guest:Do me a favor.
Guest:Pack a lunch.
Guest:If you're coming at me, at least pack a lunch.
Guest:Have the respect to know that you're going to be, your hands are going to be full.
Guest:Keep your hands full.
Guest:I'm going to keep your hands full.
Guest:We've established, we know that, right?
Marc:You remember, how much were you influenced by Rick Shapiro?
Marc:I only met Rick a couple of times.
Marc:You never saw him work in New York, the sort of manic character work?
Marc:Saw him a couple times, yeah.
Guest:Incredible.
Marc:There's a commitment there.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:All right, well, I think that we had a couple of moments.
Guest:I think so, too, buddy.
Guest:I think this has been a huge success.
Marc:It has?
Marc:You feel good about it?
Guest:I like to be podcast.
Guest:I enjoy talking to you.
Guest:At least we had a chance to connect.
Marc:Yeah, yeah.
Marc:Realize that we like each other.
Marc:Yeah, we like each other.
Marc:You know, I'll call you.
Guest:Have Brendan Schaub on.
Guest:I think you'd like it.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:Yeah.
Marc:Let me do a little research.
Guest:Yeah, he'll never... Does he throw down?
Guest:Yeah, he'll never... He would never... He might shove you around a little bit.
Marc:Oh, yeah?
Guest:No, he would never do that.
Guest:He doesn't even like to talk about fighting.
Marc:No?
Marc:No.
Marc:Was he a boxer?
Guest:He was a heavyweight in the UFC.
Guest:He won Golden Gloves, but he was a real fighter.
Marc:It's just so funny.
Marc:This is the fundamental issue.
Marc:I know you guys.
Marc:I know you're out there doing your thing.
Marc:Yeah.
Marc:I'm an old man.
Marc:I'm doing my thing.
Marc:I know I have a point of view that is what it is.
Marc:When I follow Rogan or if he follows me, we're both doing fine, but there's definitely a difference.
Marc:That's that and I'm this.
Marc:I know that on some level, we've been fighting for centuries.
Guest:Ha ha!
Guest:That's very funny.
Guest:Yes.
Guest:For one way or another.
Guest:But I'm okay with it for the most part.
Guest:But you should come over to our side for a second.
Guest:So here's what we should do.
Guest:And I'm dead serious.
Guest:You should come to Gloveworks.
Guest:Yeah, but that means I'm the guy that dies by accident.
Guest:No, that's not true.
Guest:You come to Gloveworks.
Guest:We get in the ring.
Guest:Listen.
Guest:You and Rogan?
Guest:No, no.
Guest:You and I. Look at me.
Guest:My buddy Wayne McCulloch, world champion, silver medalist in the Olympics.
Guest:I'm 55.
Guest:Doesn't matter.
Guest:I'm 52.
Guest:He's a wonderful man.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:We put on gloves.
Guest:Just we move around.
Guest:I throw some punches at you.
Guest:I show you how to keep your hands up.
Guest:You get tired.
Guest:You feel like you did something.
Guest:You learn a little something about boxing, where to stand, and we have a good time.
Guest:A couple of morons throwing down, but all of a sudden you're in the arena.
Guest:You're in the ring.
Guest:And somebody goes, Mark, you ever been in a ring?
Guest:You ever thrown hands?
Guest:And you go, a couple of times.
Guest:A couple of times.
Guest:And then they go, well, where?
Guest:With who?
Guest:And you go, don't worry about it.
Guest:Just come correct when you're around me.
Guest:Mind your P's and Q's.
Guest:All right?
Guest:And if you come at me, I'm going to meet you halfway.
Guest:Yeah, I'll meet you halfway.
Guest:I'll keep you busy.
Guest:You know what I mean?
Guest:Bottom line is Mark Maron's not hearing a fucking peep.
Guest:He's not hearing a peep out of most people.
Marc:That's all I hear is peeps.
Guest:Yeah.
Guest:I like that too.
Guest:My buddy said that to me in New York.
Guest:This giant guy was playing basketball.
Guest:And I was like, Jesus.
Guest:And he goes, oh, he's not hearing a peep out of us.
Guest:He's not hearing fucking peep one out of us.
Marc:He's just in his own thing?
Guest:No, he'll beat you up.
Guest:He's not hearing it.
Guest:You have a complaint?
Guest:Nah.
Guest:He'll swat you out of the way like a bear.
Guest:Know that there are men that can do that.
Marc:I know, I know.
Guest:Yeah, but I'm going to bring you into my... All right, okay.
Marc:Yeah, I'll put the gloves on and do the dance.
Guest:Anytime you want.
Guest:You'll love it.
Marc:Okay.
Guest:You think it's not for you.
Guest:No, no.
Guest:I've hit a thing.
Guest:No, no, but you're going to hit a person now.
Guest:We're going to move around.
Marc:Okay, no, but I had a trainer once that had me hitting the gloves, you know, showed me how to.
Guest:I don't like the way you're punching.
Guest:Well, no, I need your elbows in.
Marc:It needs you more relaxed.
Marc:There you go.
Marc:Keep the guard up, right?
Marc:Like one here?
Marc:Sort of.
Guest:Like that?
Guest:You don't have to turn it over that much, but I like the rings.
Guest:The rings would cut me up.
Guest:That's what they're for, man.
Marc:I'd lose hydraulics in six seconds with those rings.
Marc:All right, buddy, let's go stretch.
Guest:All right, buddy.
Guest:You're the best.
Guest:Thanks.
Marc:Yeah, funny, right?
Marc:That was fun.
Marc:Cracking me up.
Marc:I think we're different types of dudes, but he didn't seem to think so on some level.
Marc:But I think we are.
Marc:It's not a bad thing.
Marc:It's just different, right?
Marc:Brian's special, Complicated Apes, is now available on iTunes, Amazon Prime, Google Play, and wherever else you can find it.
Marc:Hey, I'll start branching out more on the guitar in a little bit.
Marc:Right now, it just seems limited to my echo box and one of two guitars in the amp because of my slightly compromised recording situation up here.
Marc:But I will play some.
Marc:I will play something familiar because I've probably played it before.
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Marc:Boomer lives!