Episode 1012 - Brené Brown

Episode 1012 • Released April 22, 2019 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:All right, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you?

00:00:11Marc:What the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fucking ears?

00:00:14Marc:What the fuckadelics?

00:00:16Marc:What's happening?

00:00:16Marc:It's me, Mark Maron.

00:00:19Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.

00:00:21Marc:Welcome to it.

00:00:23Marc:This is a pretty important day.

00:00:24Marc:I'm talking to Brene Brown today, and that's pretty exciting to me.

00:00:30Marc:Brene Brown is a social work researcher.

00:00:37Marc:She's an academic, but I didn't know much about her.

00:00:41Marc:She is a research professor at the University of Houston.

00:00:46Marc:And she is the chair, I think, at the Graduate College of Social Work.

00:00:52Marc:But I didn't know much about her a few years ago.

00:00:56Marc:I saw a TED talk and I think a lot of you have seen it.

00:01:00Marc:It was called The Power of Vulnerability.

00:01:05Marc:And I just watched I watched a follow up to that called Listening to Shame.

00:01:10Marc:But for some reason, a few years ago, I watched The Power of Vulnerability and it just fucking blew me away.

00:01:16Marc:Talking about the connections between vulnerability and courage and, you know, what we perceive as weakness and how we move through the world with a sense of wholeheartedness.

00:01:26Marc:And, you know, I know it sounds like some self-help jargon and perhaps you can frame it that way.

00:01:32Marc:But there was something about the way she laid it down that.

00:01:38Marc:This is a problem.

00:01:39Marc:Can you hear that motorcycle?

00:01:40Marc:That's the guy across the street, you know, who's got several old cars and the motorcycle.

00:01:44Marc:I don't know if you heard it, but I'm in this location, this temporary studio, probably for a few months where they fixed the garage.

00:01:51Marc:And I'm noticing that the sound coming up off the street is a little challenging.

00:01:55Marc:I know some of you are tired of me talking about sound and you can't hear it because once the file is compressed, but I'm living it.

00:02:01Marc:I'm living it.

00:02:03Marc:But Brene Brown, I, you know, it so moved me.

00:02:06Marc:I did everything I could to get in touch with her back then.

00:02:08Marc:And I did get in touch with her.

00:02:09Marc:I emailed her somehow.

00:02:11Marc:I don't even know how I got her email.

00:02:12Marc:I asked her to be on the show.

00:02:13Marc:I was in Houston and I remember scrambling to figure out how do I get hold of Brene Brown?

00:02:18Marc:I got to talk to her about this vulnerability thing because, you know, I'm locked in a cage of self and I want out and she seems to have the keys.

00:02:28Marc:It didn't pan out.

00:02:30Marc:We exchanged emails once and it just didn't pan out and it drifted away from me.

00:02:34Marc:And then now she's got this Netflix special out that is basically an extension of her talking about this stuff.

00:02:42Marc:Brene Brown, The Call to Courage.

00:02:46Marc:So I got a link to that.

00:02:47Marc:You can watch it now.

00:02:48Marc:It's already out.

00:02:49Marc:And still, I found it very provocative and thought.

00:02:53Marc:And I'm not really a self-help guy.

00:02:54Marc:And I don't know.

00:02:55Marc:We talk a little bit about the nature of that and if it is self-help.

00:03:00Marc:But I was very compelled by her founding most of her ideas in facts, in research, because that's the way she is.

00:03:12Marc:But but for some reason, it just resonated with me.

00:03:17Marc:And I find her to be very impressive.

00:03:19Marc:And I and it was a very much a a tricky interview for me because I am a little skeptical of broad based self-help in terms of, you know, I know you can watch something and find it inspirational.

00:03:31Marc:But how do you apply this stuff to your life?

00:03:33Marc:It was one of these interviews that I was very excited to do, and I wanted to handle it properly, but I wanted to really engage and have a conversation with her about the stuff that she knows about, and also my own personal problems, but she's not a therapist.

00:03:50Marc:But anyway, I'm tired.

00:03:52Marc:I just got back from San Diego.

00:03:56Marc:Oh, man.

00:03:59Marc:No matter what anybody says or thinks about stand up, sometimes I'm just amazed, you know, whatever you think about where people come from.

00:04:05Marc:I'm you know, I started a as a club comic.

00:04:08Marc:I am a club comic, whatever movements around comedy or wherever when anyone comes from or however you want to.

00:04:14Marc:categorized comedy alternative storyteller this or that i am a dyed in the wool stand-up comic and i started in the trenches of one-nighters in boston and comedy clubs around the country and that you know that was where it happened that's where i made my bones and i still do clubs obviously but like i've gotten a following many of you come out to see me and i can do venues

00:04:40Marc:that are larger and filled with people that specifically come to see me.

00:04:44Marc:But now that I'm working out this new material, I want to get into the trenches.

00:04:48Marc:I want to do a five-show run at some comedy clubs so I can work shit out and get my chops in order and make sure I'm staying strong, make sure I'm working out.

00:05:00Marc:By the way, I think I put a couple pounds back, slipping off the diet, not eating a lot of terrible shit, but...

00:05:08Marc:yeah i'm keeping the cashew business in business and uh not great not great but good for you but you know take it easy right cashews god damn it they're good so

00:05:20Marc:But I get down there and I had this great guy, this kid, Luke Schwartz, who he's actually a door guy at the store, which is what I used to be.

00:05:30Marc:And I always liked him and I'd seen him do a few minutes.

00:05:32Marc:So I had him come down and open for me.

00:05:34Marc:He did a great job.

00:05:36Marc:Probably going to have him open for me some more.

00:05:38Marc:And, you know, it was nice to have a familiar face.

00:05:41Marc:And, you know, I go up there and I'm laying it out and I'm doing long sets.

00:05:44Marc:I got a lot of stuff that's a little open ended that I'm working through.

00:05:47Marc:But just to be in a club, to be in a low ceiling club that seats a couple hundred people, most of the people definitely came to see me.

00:05:55Marc:I didn't think San Diego would come out because there was part of me that thinks like it's a beach town.

00:05:59Marc:It's a beach city.

00:06:00Marc:It's laid back.

00:06:02Marc:It is laid back.

00:06:03Marc:I don't know.

00:06:03Marc:People seem to travel there specifically to walk around in shorts and flip flops and drink in public.

00:06:09Marc:There's a lot of people loopy walking around drunky with the half filled drinks in their hands and shorts and, you know, scantily dressed at different stages of hitting bottom.

00:06:19Marc:But look, that's a judgment call.

00:06:21Marc:Maybe they're just having fun.

00:06:23Marc:But I know what it looks like.

00:06:24Marc:There's a difference between fun and someone should help this person.

00:06:30Marc:Anyway, the club was great.

00:06:33Marc:Staff was great.

00:06:35Marc:And just really attentive.

00:06:37Marc:But just the dynamic of the room.

00:06:40Marc:That first night was just beautiful, man.

00:06:43Marc:It was just beautiful to have that interaction with so many people that came out.

00:06:47Marc:And I just like, be wary, folks.

00:06:49Marc:Of yourselves, you know, trying to separate stand up genres, you know, like, oh, that guy's a storyteller.

00:06:55Marc:This guy's a joke guy.

00:06:56Marc:That may be true, but make sure you understand that if you're doing the job of stand up, you're just a fucking stand up comic.

00:07:03Marc:And that's what I've been doing almost more than half of my adult life.

00:07:08Marc:And there's just moments where I'm like, yeah, after I've done one show, I'm a 55-year-old cat.

00:07:13Marc:And after I've done one show on a Saturday night and I'm a little tired and it went good, just going into that second one, feeling it open up, feeling the improv grooves, those neural pathways that allow for riffage are sort of like opening up and I can ride some waves and find some new beats and kind of feel the room.

00:07:33Marc:What a fucking beautiful fucking weekend of comedy.

00:07:38Marc:And I just want to thank the folks down there at American Comedy Club for really being great hosts.

00:07:43Marc:Thank Luke Schwartz.

00:07:44Marc:And I just and also, you know, San Diego, I don't know much about it, but I do know I had some of the best fucking sushi in my life.

00:07:52Marc:And to be honest with you, it might be worth going back down there to eat at this sushi place.

00:07:59Marc:Look, it's Southern California.

00:08:01Marc:There's a lot of sushi around.

00:08:02Marc:There's a lot of sushi everywhere.

00:08:03Marc:And mediocre sushi is not unlike mediocre Indian food.

00:08:06Marc:You know what you're going to get.

00:08:08Marc:But, you know, rarely are you amazed.

00:08:10Marc:You know, it's like, oh, I feel like eating sushi.

00:08:12Marc:OK, let's just go eat sushi.

00:08:14Marc:Indian food will be good.

00:08:15Marc:Let's just go to that Indian place.

00:08:16Marc:But you sort of accept that it's going to be OK.

00:08:19Marc:You know, some of it's a little better than others for whatever reason.

00:08:21Marc:But this shit was fucking insane.

00:08:24Marc:a place called Azuki, Azuki Sushi Lounge in San Diego.

00:08:27Marc:It was like they had three kinds, three degrees of fatty tuna.

00:08:32Marc:It was just fresh as fuck.

00:08:34Marc:I swear to God I would go back for the sushi.

00:08:37Marc:So I've done, I've sung my praises of San Diego.

00:08:42Marc:I'm a changed man.

00:08:43Marc:It had a lot to do with a basement comedy room and fatty tuna.

00:08:48Marc:And now a little updates on some things I just found out.

00:08:52Marc:I don't even know if...

00:08:53Marc:Fucking Lynn knows this, actually.

00:08:55Marc:It seems that Sword of Trust, the film that I'm in, that I play a major part in, the new Lynn Shelton film, is actually going to be screening at the Boston International Film Festival, Boston, at the Somerville Theater on Friday, April 26th.

00:09:15Marc:That's this Friday.

00:09:17Marc:I had no idea.

00:09:18Marc:But but it is.

00:09:20Marc:I just I saw someone tweeted it.

00:09:21Marc:So that's great.

00:09:22Marc:That's like that is that's like two blocks away from where I lived in an attic when I was just starting out doing paid work as a comic.

00:09:32Marc:I lived in an attic in Somerville in 1989-ish or something.

00:09:38Marc:It was not a cool place.

00:09:39Marc:But the Somerville Theater is a cool place.

00:09:41Marc:So it looks like you can get tickets for this Friday, April 26th, a screening of Sword of Trust.

00:09:48Marc:Boston folks.

00:09:49Marc:And also, obviously, my tour dates are coming up and shit is selling out, people.

00:09:53Marc:And I'm going to keep doing this, even if it's annoying.

00:09:58Marc:But I'm doing some of those club dates, I believe, are sold out.

00:10:03Marc:Comedy Club on State.

00:10:05Marc:uh in madison may 23rd 24th and 25th i believe that sold out but if you want to drive to st louis june 13th 14th and 15th at helium comedy club i think those are still available august 1st 2nd and 3rd at goodnight's comedy club in raleigh

00:10:20Marc:I don't know if that sold out.

00:10:21Marc:They added a show August 9th or August 10th, I think August 10th, in Portland at Revolutionary Hall.

00:10:28Marc:There's tickets for those shows.

00:10:29Marc:Majestic Theater, Dallas, Texas.

00:10:31Marc:Go get them, August 22nd.

00:10:33Marc:August 23rd, Paramount Theater, Austin, Texas.

00:10:36Marc:August 24th, the Wortham Theater Center in Houston, Texas.

00:10:41Marc:The Vogue Theater in Vancouver, September 6th.

00:10:44Marc:Listen to that guy.

00:10:46Marc:The Moore Theater in Seattle, September 7th.

00:10:49Marc:The Vic in Chicago, September 20.

00:10:51Marc:The Masonic Temple in Detroit, September 21.

00:10:54Marc:Pantages Theater in Minneapolis, love it.

00:10:57Marc:The Merriam Theater in Philly on October 10th at 7.30 p.m.

00:11:01Marc:The Kennedy Center, that's a big deal and a big room.

00:11:04Marc:Buy tickets, please.

00:11:06Marc:Washington, D.C., October 11th.

00:11:08Marc:Through the Schubert Theater in Boston, October 12th.

00:11:11Marc:I believe I'll be doing two shows there, 7 and 10.

00:11:14Marc:I'm shooting my special.

00:11:15Marc:And then after the special, after I've worked all those months to get to that point...

00:11:19Marc:I'm going to blow off some steam the next week at the James K. Polk Theater in Nashville on October 18th.

00:11:25Marc:And then on to the Tabernacle Theater in Atlanta, Georgia on October 19th.

00:11:30Marc:And then on the 26th, I will end the arc of the event that is the Hey, There's More Tour at the Masonic in San Francisco on October 26th.

00:11:42Marc:Dig it.

00:11:44Marc:All right.

00:11:45Marc:All right.

00:11:47Marc:I feel doughy.

00:11:49Marc:What a good time to talk to Brene Brown.

00:11:51Marc:What a good time to talk.

00:11:55Marc:I just I love her.

00:11:57Marc:I respect her.

00:11:59Marc:I like I like talking to her and and her Netflix special.

00:12:03Marc:The call to courage is streaming now.

00:12:06Marc:And it was a real honor and very exciting for me to have this conversation with Brene Brown.

00:12:13Marc:So now I will share it with you.

00:12:16Guest:I cannot believe you have a Piggly Wiggly shirt on.

00:12:22Guest:You know I write about Piggly Wiggly in one of my books.

00:12:24Guest:You do?

00:12:24Guest:Which book?

00:12:25Guest:I don't remember.

00:12:26Guest:Oh.

00:12:26Guest:But I just talk about going to Piggly Wiggly with my grandma.

00:12:28Marc:Well, I grew up in Albuquerque.

00:12:30Marc:So, you know, I know Piggly Wiggly and somebody sent me this shirt.

00:12:34Marc:I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico for the most part.

00:12:36Marc:I didn't know that.

00:12:37Marc:Yeah, I know you Texans.

00:12:39Marc:We're familiar.

00:12:39Marc:That's good.

00:12:40Marc:Yeah, we've been on ski slopes with you.

00:12:41Marc:We know what you're up to.

00:12:43Marc:We know the overdressed, lot of equipment thing.

00:12:45Marc:Over-accessorized.

00:12:47Marc:I understand.

00:12:48Marc:We know that it's a country.

00:12:50Marc:It's not a state.

00:12:51Guest:It's totally a country.

00:12:52Guest:I understand.

00:12:53Guest:I mean, there's really still people there, like reasonable people that want to secede from the union.

00:12:57Marc:Yeah, it might happen.

00:12:58Marc:They might have their window in the next few years.

00:13:01Marc:It's a shit show.

00:13:03Marc:Yeah, that's the only thing that's holding us together in a weird way is this federal system, but it's starting to look like, well, you know, what do we need to be part of it for?

00:13:09Marc:We don't want them.

00:13:10Marc:Well, I don't want Californians to come here.

00:13:12Marc:Let them stay in their state.

00:13:13Marc:Yeah, that's it.

00:13:14Marc:Yeah, I get it.

00:13:15Marc:So, yeah, I was in London, and I was wondering about that.

00:13:19Marc:Do you travel internationally?

00:13:20Guest:Yes.

00:13:21Marc:Not tons, but yes.

00:13:22Marc:Yes.

00:13:22Marc:Because I noticed something about a lot of stuff you're talking about and how you talk about it is uniquely American.

00:13:29Marc:And I just was wondering, you know, if the cultural shame actually is exported in a way where your way of handling it is is a language they understand.

00:13:41Guest:It translates.

00:13:42Guest:There are some words that are that are that people struggle with.

00:13:46Guest:Like when I say like in the leadership book, I talk about let's rumble, like let's have a hard conversation where people show up with point of views.

00:13:51Guest:And like sometimes I'll be like, what is this rumble?

00:13:54Guest:Yeah.

00:13:55Guest:Right.

00:13:55Guest:And like a hard conversation.

00:13:56Guest:Right.

00:13:57Guest:They're like, we like it.

00:13:58Marc:Yeah.

00:13:58Marc:But they don't know what you're talking about?

00:14:00Guest:Sometimes they don't.

00:14:01Guest:Sometimes they do.

00:14:01Guest:I mean, but it's interesting.

00:14:03Guest:We did a training in London probably, I don't know, two and a half years ago now.

00:14:07Guest:And there were 50 countries of origin represented.

00:14:10Guest:And everyone was like, the thing that we have most in common is...

00:14:14Marc:Yeah.

00:14:15Guest:Is shame and our fear of vulnerability.

00:14:17Guest:And they got that.

00:14:18Guest:They got that.

00:14:18Marc:Yeah.

00:14:19Marc:Yeah.

00:14:19Marc:I mean, it's it's a cross cultural.

00:14:21Marc:Well, that seems to be like the thing that you've achieved.

00:14:24Marc:And like, look, I'm like I watch the first time I reached out to you is like three years ago, I think.

00:14:31Marc:I don't know if you remember, but I was in Houston.

00:14:33Marc:I was sort of like, I got to talk to her.

00:14:35Marc:And then I don't I don't know how I figured out your email.

00:14:38Marc:But we did have an email exchange.

00:14:39Marc:And I was like, I host this podcast.

00:14:41Marc:I think it'd be good because I just watched, I think, the first TED talk.

00:14:45Marc:And I was like, like, I'm working on a lot of the same issues that this woman is.

00:14:50Marc:But I'm doing it hands on out here in the world.

00:14:54Marc:yeah yeah for real yeah and uh me too i'm working i'm like i'm talking about a bit for myself i'm in the world working on it right and i'm like it's like i got to talk to her but see i had to be careful about this coming into this because you know i it would be very easy for me just to start talking about my own problems and have you help me fix them

00:15:15Guest:I don't know that I'd be good at that.

00:15:18Guest:I'm like a little researcher heal thyself.

00:15:20Marc:Right.

00:15:21Marc:But you've never done, you've never been a therapist.

00:15:23Marc:Never.

00:15:24Marc:So you don't have that.

00:15:25Guest:No, I was trained in that program, but I went the research route.

00:15:30Guest:I don't care for people that much one-on-one.

00:15:33Guest:Really?

00:15:33Guest:No, I mean, one-on-one is good.

00:15:34Guest:I just don't...

00:15:37Guest:Yeah, I would be a terrible therapist.

00:15:40Marc:Why?

00:15:40Marc:Because of the sort of like, you know, tough love instinct?

00:15:43Marc:The sort of like, you know, like, here's what you need to do.

00:15:48Marc:So you're all set.

00:15:50Guest:Yes, I got a little bit of that in me.

00:15:53Guest:But paradoxically, I also have like a...

00:15:56Guest:a caregiver enmeshment thing where i would be like are you know like all right yeah you might go down with the ship i'd go down with the ship possibly like yeah and then but i'd be resentful the whole time we were sinking right right i'd be like you got me into this shit yeah yeah like right now who's gonna help me yeah who's gonna help me this is great this is great you suck like yeah where'd you grow up in texas born in san antonio and lived there for a long time on and then houston

00:16:24Marc:So Houston, never Austin.

00:16:25Guest:Well, I went to UT.

00:16:27Marc:Okay.

00:16:27Guest:Hook them horns.

00:16:27Guest:Yeah.

00:16:28Guest:How many kids in your family?

00:16:29Guest:I'm the oldest of four.

00:16:31Marc:Okay.

00:16:31Marc:So a lot of kids.

00:16:32Marc:Yeah.

00:16:32Marc:And you've said, I've heard you say you're, you're the fifth generation Texan.

00:16:36Marc:Yeah.

00:16:36Marc:Your family motto is lock and load.

00:16:38Marc:Is that what it was?

00:16:39Marc:Yeah.

00:16:39Marc:I'm trying to get it changed, but it's going to take an active.

00:16:42Marc:So, so I guess, so what was the, what was the family business?

00:16:46Marc:What, what?

00:16:47Guest:No family business.

00:16:48Guest:I mean, my dad's a lawyer.

00:16:49Marc:Oh, he's a lawyer.

00:16:50Marc:Yeah.

00:16:50Marc:Well, that's sort of a business.

00:16:51Guest:Yeah.

00:16:51Guest:But like, is he a Texan sort of- Oil and gas lawyer he was, yeah, until he retired.

00:16:56Guest:Yeah.

00:16:56Guest:Suburban, cowboy hat.

00:16:58Marc:Right.

00:16:58Guest:Yeah.

00:16:59Marc:Oil and gas lawyer.

00:17:00Marc:Yeah.

00:17:00Marc:Representing the oil companies?

00:17:02Marc:Representing not the good guys.

00:17:05Marc:When did that when did that start?

00:17:07Marc:When did you realize that and what that implied?

00:17:12Guest:Yeah, he raised like, yeah, it's interesting because he's conservative and he's raised for not conservative kids.

00:17:17Guest:Oh, really?

00:17:18Guest:All of us.

00:17:18Guest:Yeah.

00:17:18Guest:Well, that makes sense, right?

00:17:20Guest:It does.

00:17:21Guest:You think one would go the way of the but my mom's my mom's like an ACLU card carrying.

00:17:27Guest:Oh, so you had both sides.

00:17:28Guest:Socialists.

00:17:29Guest:Yes.

00:17:29Guest:They're no longer married.

00:17:30Guest:Okay.

00:17:30Guest:When did that happen?

00:17:32Guest:I think I was 20.

00:17:33Guest:Oh, so- Long time.

00:17:34Marc:You were out.

00:17:35Guest:Barely, yes.

00:17:36Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:17:37Marc:And you were the oldest.

00:17:38Guest:I was.

00:17:38Marc:So some other ones had to take the hit, huh?

00:17:40Guest:Yeah, well, we all took hits in our own way.

00:17:43Guest:Right.

00:17:43Guest:Yeah, because I was the oldest.

00:17:44Guest:I kind of lived through it, and they, yeah.

00:17:46Marc:Yeah, and so when you're growing up, well, you know who the meat puppets are.

00:17:50Marc:Yeah, I do know who the meat puppets are.

00:17:52Marc:We're probably around the same age, so you're kind of rocking.

00:17:56Marc:Totally.

00:17:56Marc:Oh, yes.

00:17:57Yeah.

00:17:57Marc:Rocking in Houston.

00:17:59Marc:Yeah.

00:18:00Marc:Texas girl.

00:18:01Marc:Yeah.

00:18:02Marc:Trouble.

00:18:03Marc:Yeah.

00:18:03Marc:Okay.

00:18:04Marc:Sober.

00:18:04Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:18:05Marc:Yeah.

00:18:05Marc:Always?

00:18:06Marc:22 years.

00:18:07Marc:20.

00:18:08Marc:Coming up on 20.

00:18:08Marc:Congratulations.

00:18:09Marc:Thank you.

00:18:10Marc:It's a big deal.

00:18:10Marc:We waited a while, though.

00:18:12Marc:Right?

00:18:13Marc:Yeah.

00:18:13Guest:I did everything I needed in the first half of my life.

00:18:18Marc:I hear these people, I got sober at 22.

00:18:20Marc:I'm like, well, you didn't do the good part.

00:18:24Marc:Your bottom must not have been that great.

00:18:26Marc:And I had a really high bottom, actually, so I feel pretty lucky.

00:18:29Marc:Of course you did.

00:18:30Marc:Yeah.

00:18:31Marc:I had a pretty high bottom.

00:18:32Marc:I don't get the sense that you're somebody who's going to lose complete control ever.

00:18:38Marc:No, I'm pretty tight.

00:18:41Marc:Yeah.

00:18:42Marc:So like how are you going to hit a low bottom?

00:18:45Marc:I mean, mine was relatively low, but it wasn't like, you know, I wasn't living on the street because there's some part of your brain that no matter how fucked up you get, they're sort of like, all right, you have that part where it's like, this is enough.

00:18:55Marc:This is enough.

00:18:56Guest:Yeah, I was actually doing the last day of graduate school when I was getting my master's in social work.

00:19:00Guest:We had to do a genogram, which is like a family map.

00:19:03Guest:So I called my mom and I was like, hey, can you walk me through this genogram?

00:19:07Guest:And it's like different shapes and lines.

00:19:09Guest:And so she's like, what happened to this person?

00:19:11Guest:She's like...

00:19:12Guest:Cirrhosis of the liver, alcoholism.

00:19:14Guest:What happened to this person?

00:19:15Guest:Overdose.

00:19:15Guest:What happened?

00:19:16Guest:And I was like, holy shit.

00:19:18Guest:Yeah.

00:19:19Guest:And then I thought about that with my propensity for wildness in general.

00:19:22Guest:Right.

00:19:23Guest:And then quit drinking the day after graduation and smoking cigarettes, which I still miss.

00:19:27Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:19:27Marc:I'm on nicotine lozenges always.

00:19:30Marc:Oh, you are?

00:19:30Marc:Yeah.

00:19:30Marc:I go on and off them, but I just couldn't.

00:19:33Marc:I don't want to smoke, but I want something else.

00:19:35Guest:I don't need the nicotine, but I want to smoke.

00:19:37Marc:Uh-huh.

00:19:37Marc:Yeah.

00:19:37Marc:You don't have nothing?

00:19:39Marc:Nothing.

00:19:39Marc:Caffeine?

00:19:40Marc:Zero?

00:19:40Marc:Zero.

00:19:41Marc:Hmm.

00:19:41Marc:Yeah.

00:19:42Marc:The love of the masses, you have.

00:19:46Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:19:47Guest:Yes, maybe.

00:19:48Guest:I don't know.

00:19:48Guest:Some days, depending.

00:19:50Marc:So most of the alcoholism runs up your mom's line?

00:19:52Marc:Both.

00:19:53Marc:Because, you know, I was wondering because I'm an amateur psychologist.

00:19:57Guest:I know.

00:19:57Guest:That's why I love your podcast.

00:19:59Guest:Yeah.

00:19:59Guest:Fix me.

00:20:00Marc:I can't fix you.

00:20:01Marc:I think you can fix me.

00:20:02Marc:Well, I just I'm curious about like the thing because I'm looking at, you know, I watched the two TED Talks.

00:20:07Marc:I watched a new Netflix special, which was great.

00:20:10Marc:It was sort of you seem to be evolving the message.

00:20:13Marc:And it seems like the message that you've sort of constructed out of.

00:20:17Marc:You know, shame is a basis through vulnerability, through courage, you know, redefining bravery and also all the repercussions of both sides of this.

00:20:25Marc:Yeah.

00:20:27Marc:Is a, you know, a personal way to, you know, self-discovery and better behavior and, you know, better humans, better families, better communities.

00:20:34Marc:And ultimately, there's a possibility that you could save the world, Brene.

00:20:39Marc:And I appreciate that.

00:20:41Guest:Yeah, it's a lot of work.

00:20:42Guest:Thank you for the appreciation.

00:20:45Thank you.

00:20:45Marc:You're going to get credit.

00:20:47Marc:The world will be saved and there will be a monument to you that you'll be uncomfortable with.

00:20:53Marc:Barely.

00:20:53Marc:Yeah.

00:20:54Marc:A large statue of you that you're like.

00:20:56Guest:That I would hate.

00:20:56Marc:Yeah.

00:20:58Marc:Not that dress.

00:20:59Marc:No.

00:21:00Marc:But I think when I was looking at it, I what compelled me in terms of trying to understand is that like I knew some like where do you because you say it, but you don't really say where you came from, you know, in terms of like, you know, when you talk about therapy during your breakdown, Ted talk, you're sort of like, you know, family stuff.

00:21:20Marc:No, fuck that.

00:21:21Marc:But you clearly did it.

00:21:22Marc:Yeah.

00:21:23Marc:So but like I guess my question and I think we should probably talk about these points so people know why I'm asking this is that.

00:21:30Marc:That part of the equation that, you know, when you talk about the power of vulnerability, which is your trip.

00:21:38Marc:Yeah.

00:21:38Marc:And it's true.

00:21:39Marc:Like, I'm sort of on the precipice of some of that.

00:21:41Marc:And I've been working at it from a different way.

00:21:43Marc:I perform in front of crowds.

00:21:45Marc:And because of my background, my sense of self was sort of fractured.

00:21:50Marc:And I just, by instinct, would throw myself into uncomfortable situations constantly to sort of try to fortify and understand who I am.

00:22:00Marc:I don't know why I didn't do it personally, but I wanted to drag audiences through that for three decades.

00:22:06Guest:But it's interesting that you just leaned into that vulnerability and put yourself out there.

00:22:12Guest:What do you think compelled that?

00:22:13Marc:But see, it's like it's a vulnerability that like in another point you talk about, you know, what is, you know, when you are public with something, with your story, with your information, you know, what I can do in this room with you or what I can do in front of a crowd, it may not be something that I can do in the long term in a one-on-one relationship.

00:22:33Guest:Got it.

00:22:33Guest:Yeah, that makes sense.

00:22:34Marc:So, like, you have that vulnerability that you're talking about or that you put forth in front of people is very different, you know, than sort of doing the day-to-day showing up with, you know, wholeheartedness.

00:22:47Guest:With an actual other person, especially.

00:22:50Marc:That you have a relationship with.

00:22:52Marc:Yeah.

00:22:53Marc:It's very easy to go from town to town and toot your horn.

00:22:56Marc:Yeah.

00:22:57Marc:And get everyone crying.

00:22:58Marc:Yeah.

00:22:58Marc:And then go like, I got to go.

00:23:00Marc:Yeah.

00:23:00Marc:You know, email the site, you know.

00:23:02Guest:Yeah.

00:23:03Guest:It is.

00:23:03Guest:I mean, I think the hardest moments I have still are personal moments.

00:23:08Guest:I think there's a difference between vulnerability and intimacy.

00:23:12Marc:It's required, though, vulnerability.

00:23:15Guest:Yes, it's a prerequisite, but I think intimacy is another step deeper and braver.

00:23:21Guest:Yeah, I do.

00:23:23Marc:And that requires vulnerability plus trust in the long haul.

00:23:28Guest:I think it requires vulnerability plus trust plus a strong sense of self-worth.

00:23:34Right.

00:23:35Marc:Right.

00:23:35Marc:The self-worth thing keeps coming up.

00:23:37Marc:I guess like, you know, like my reaction to it all was in.

00:23:43Marc:Let me come around this way.

00:23:45Marc:I assume that you came from some sort of out of control environment that eventually drove you to not have that happen in your life.

00:23:54Marc:I think that's fair.

00:23:56Marc:And that, you know, that your interest, like, as you said in your work is, you know, like, how do I get around this vulnerability thing?

00:24:02Marc:What research do I have to do to not make my to maintain my defensiveness in a righteous way?

00:24:09Guest:This is so uncomfortable.

00:24:11Guest:Yeah, that's exactly what I did.

00:24:12Guest:Yeah, I did not want the answer to be the answer.

00:24:14Guest:I wanted to do the research to defend my way of being in the world.

00:24:18Marc:Right.

00:24:19Marc:For sure.

00:24:19Marc:Right.

00:24:19Marc:And that blew up in your face, which led to a breakthrough and a sort of like epiphany of how it all fits together.

00:24:28Marc:Shame and vulnerability and the repercussions of that and how they ripple through all levels of human activity.

00:24:37Marc:Right.

00:24:37Guest:Yes, I think that's right.

00:24:39Guest:I think that I spent my entire life trying to outrun and outsmart vulnerability.

00:24:43Marc:Yeah.

00:24:43Guest:And I think my plan was to get the empirical evidence to support my way of being in the world.

00:24:49Marc:Right.

00:24:49Marc:So when you started school, your interest, were you aware that your interest was social work and that that was your channel through which to do this?

00:24:58Marc:I mean, what were your interests heading into this?

00:25:00Guest:Oh, no, because I didn't finish college until I was 29.

00:25:03Guest:So I started, I graduated from high school when I was 17, hitchhiked across Europe for six months, came back, kind of went in and out of college for a couple years, got kicked out.

00:25:12Guest:Yeah.

00:25:12Marc:You got kicked out for what?

00:25:13Guest:Grades.

00:25:14Guest:Oh, really?

00:25:15Guest:Yeah.

00:25:15Guest:Not because I got bad grades.

00:25:16Guest:I just went, I stopped going.

00:25:18Guest:Oh, you're ditching.

00:25:19Guest:I just ditched.

00:25:19Guest:Yeah.

00:25:20Guest:Yeah.

00:25:20Guest:And then I didn't.

00:25:21Guest:Too tired.

00:25:21Guest:I should have ditched and withdrawn, but I didn't.

00:25:24Guest:And then I kind of got a job.

00:25:26Guest:Yeah.

00:25:27Guest:Like in the corporate sector, taking calls in Spanish.

00:25:31Guest:You good at Spanish?

00:25:32Guest:Mm-hmm.

00:25:32Guest:Oh, that's good.

00:25:33Guest:Well, I mean, back then, yeah.

00:25:34Guest:Yeah, I was.

00:25:35Guest:Yeah.

00:25:36Guest:Yeah.

00:25:36Guest:I took six years of French and so I could speak Spanish enough to work for AT&T.

00:25:40Guest:I was like, gracias para llamar AT&T.

00:25:42Guest:Mi nombre es Brene.

00:25:44Guest:You were that lady.

00:25:45Guest:I was that lady.

00:25:46Guest:And then every now and then they'd be like, they'd throw something at me that was super phone techie.

00:25:49Guest:I'd be like, like the word Jack.

00:25:51Guest:I'm like...

00:25:52Guest:Jose.

00:25:53Guest:They're like, that's not Jack.

00:25:55Guest:They're like, that's not a phone Jack.

00:25:58Guest:But then I went back to school probably mid-20s and wanted to be a history major.

00:26:07Guest:And I had to walk through the social work department to get to the history building at University of Texas.

00:26:11Guest:Yeah.

00:26:11Guest:And when I was walking through, I was like, what is going on in here?

00:26:16Guest:Like, it was amazing.

00:26:17Guest:Like, there were these like protest groups and just all these like little things on the wall that said, hey, do you want to do this rally or do you want to work with these kids?

00:26:27Guest:You know, and I was like, this is really interesting.

00:26:29Guest:Then I got to the history department.

00:26:31Guest:Everyone I talked with was like 70 white with ginormous foreheads.

00:26:38Marc:Right.

00:26:38Marc:And I was real academics.

00:26:40Marc:Yeah.

00:26:40Marc:I don't fit here.

00:26:41Marc:Right.

00:26:42Marc:So the social work thing, you felt like, you know, there's something proactive going on.

00:26:47Marc:There's excitement.

00:26:48Guest:There's activism here.

00:26:49Guest:And I was an activist already.

00:26:50Guest:So there was like, oh yeah, for sure.

00:26:52Marc:Yeah.

00:26:53Marc:Like in a deep way, like you were out there doing the stuff, grassroots?

00:26:57Guest:Yes.

00:26:58Guest:Yeah.

00:26:58Guest:Because I was also, when I worked for AT&T in Espanol and then eventually in English, I was a union organizer and a union steward.

00:27:05Guest:So, yeah.

00:27:06Guest:Okay.

00:27:06Guest:Right.

00:27:06Guest:So old school.

00:27:08Marc:Old school.

00:27:08Marc:Progressive.

00:27:09Marc:Saul Alinsky.

00:27:10Marc:Yeah.

00:27:11Marc:So, okay.

00:27:11Marc:Well, this makes sense to me.

00:27:12Marc:And because I think that social work is a very noble and necessary profession that you hear very little about.

00:27:18Marc:It's amazing.

00:27:19Marc:Yeah.

00:27:19Marc:And I don't know what condition, how it works on a state level or a national level, but it seems highly necessary, the position of social worker.

00:27:30Marc:And I never hear anything about it.

00:27:33Guest:Yeah, we're quiet.

00:27:34Guest:You just don't want to live without us.

00:27:35Guest:So, like, if you've got a kid that's on drugs and in trouble, we're going to help you.

00:27:38Guest:If you've got a parent getting discharged from a hospital that needs resources, you're not going to do it without us.

00:27:43Guest:I mean, like...

00:27:45Guest:We do everything from policy work to therapeutic work, clinicians.

00:27:50Guest:All my therapists have been social workers.

00:27:51Marc:And is it relative to state funding and that kind of stuff?

00:27:54Marc:I mean, how does it work?

00:27:55Guest:Every policy.

00:27:56Guest:I mean, state funding, federal funding, nonprofit funding, some private practice across the board.

00:28:01Marc:But you right away decided, I'm not going to be a therapist.

00:28:04Marc:I'm not going to sit in the rooms with these people whose lives are falling apart or what have you.

00:28:09Guest:I thought maybe I was – I don't know.

00:28:11Guest:I think I thought about it.

00:28:12Guest:I went to graduate school at the University of Houston because they had the only political social work concentration in the country.

00:28:19Guest:So I went to, like, a real political activism path, macro social work.

00:28:24Guest:The therapeutic stuff did not interest me as much.

00:28:26Guest:Yeah.

00:28:27Guest:I wanted to be a consumer of it, but I didn't want it.

00:28:29Guest:It was a thing where the social work axiom is start where people are and walk side by side with them, a compagnia to walk with.

00:28:36Guest:And I'm like, let's just speed this shit up and say, here's what's going on.

00:28:40Guest:You need to fix this and leave your check at the door.

00:28:44Guest:And so when I realized that wasn't really how it went, I was not interested.

00:28:47Marc:But you do know that is how it goes.

00:28:52Marc:But, right, I mean, in the sense that that was not the area you wanted to do.

00:28:56Guest:No, it wasn't, no.

00:28:57Marc:Like, to walk with people on their journey.

00:28:59Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:29:00Marc:Yeah, you want to, like, because I wrote down, like, the idea of, you know, there's a fine line between, you know, control and simplifying.

00:29:09Right.

00:29:12Guest:Yeah, I live on that line.

00:29:13Guest:Yeah, that's my line.

00:29:14Guest:That's my favorite line.

00:29:15Guest:It's really weird that you kind of know me better than most people do.

00:29:21Guest:No, I don't know.

00:29:23Guest:Yeah, you have the control thing.

00:29:25Guest:I thought that was really embedded deep, hard to pick up on.

00:29:30Marc:It's not.

00:29:31Marc:I'm offended.

00:29:34Marc:And I'm not saying it's a bad thing, obviously, but I was just curious about where this all comes from because I struggle this struggle.

00:29:43Marc:Do you know what I mean?

00:29:44Marc:Yeah, I get it.

00:29:45Marc:Like, for whatever reason, I'm doing this weird bit out of my past right now.

00:29:50Marc:I'm working on this piece of comedy that's based on my obsession with circus freaks when I was a child.

00:29:58Marc:And it started to dawn on me that, like, I had these books about the original P.T.

00:30:03Marc:Barnum circus freaks, you know, bearded ladies, Siamese twins.

00:30:07Marc:You know, these were people who were on display, right?

00:30:10Marc:And I read about them and I went to see whatever was left of the touring circus free community at the Albuquerque State Fair.

00:30:17Marc:And I was trying for some reason recently because of my own struggle trying to live a wholehearted life.

00:30:23Marc:Yeah.

00:30:24Marc:You know, what was that about?

00:30:26Marc:And then I started to think about how uncomfortable I was as a kid because my parents were so consuming and selfish and without boundary and unable to nurture and all these things that I've really investigated a lot.

00:30:38Marc:And I realized there was probably some part of me that was looking at these performers, whether they were being exploited or not, they were owning themselves because they had no choice.

00:30:47Marc:You know, this guy's got a half a body growing out of his side and he's fucking dressing it.

00:30:51Marc:So like...

00:30:53Marc:I think I can be okay with this haircut.

00:30:55Marc:You know, there was some, you know what I mean?

00:30:57Guest:Yeah, no, yeah, just finding, I mean.

00:31:01Guest:They had no choice.

00:31:02Guest:They had no choice but to be authentic.

00:31:05Marc:Right.

00:31:06Guest:Where a lot of us can bullshit our way.

00:31:08Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:31:09Guest:Our whole lives.

00:31:11Marc:Right.

00:31:27Marc:It's not like I don't want to change, but maybe I don't have time or I'm just going to have to live with this.

00:31:33Marc:I know there's some other part of me that I think for most people, this vulnerability part is probably pretty young emotionally.

00:31:40Marc:And somehow or another, wherever it happened, whatever happened, they decided to protect that.

00:31:46Marc:That kid.

00:31:47Guest:The walls went up.

00:31:48Guest:The notes were dug.

00:31:49Marc:So when you open that up, you know, at age 50 and, you know, and your emotional, you know, strata is, you know, 10, you know, with the same sort of rage and sensitivity and fear.

00:32:03Marc:But the sad thing is, is the child is rage, you know, as a child is sort of like you expect it.

00:32:08Marc:But when a grown man is raging like a fucking seven year old.

00:32:12Marc:Yeah.

00:32:13Marc:It's dangerous and fucked up.

00:32:14Marc:Yeah.

00:32:15Marc:You know, and I knew I was balancing all this shit, and I just, you know, recently have just... I'm tired.

00:32:25Guest:You know what, though?

00:32:26Guest:You know what's crazy?

00:32:27Marc:What?

00:32:29Guest:Is in my experience, this is speaking as a researcher...

00:32:33Guest:I don't think, I think midlife is when those walls normally come down.

00:32:38Guest:I think, I don't experience a lot of people in their confused 20s or perfect 30s.

00:32:47Guest:Yeah.

00:32:48Yeah.

00:32:48Guest:And they were like, go get them 40s.

00:32:50Guest:I mean, most people start to engage in that process you just described really in midlife.

00:32:59Guest:It's really in your 40s and 50s where people are like, this armor is freaking killing me.

00:33:04Guest:I get that it used to keep me safe, but I can't freaking breathe.

00:33:09Guest:I cannot breathe anymore.

00:33:11Guest:It is no longer serving me.

00:33:13Guest:And so I do think...

00:33:16Guest:And then I do think you are kind of laid bare

00:33:22Guest:in a really weird time in your life, which I think is why you see people doing a lot of midlife weirdness.

00:33:28Marc:Right, but those sort of fall under the rubric of what you've put together as what does shame manifest?

00:33:41Marc:When you're guarded, what are those things that you do to maintain it?

00:33:47Marc:At all costs.

00:33:48Marc:Right.

00:33:49Marc:And that life is a dangerous life for everybody involved some way.

00:33:53Guest:No.

00:33:53Guest:Yeah.

00:33:54Guest:It's like I always think about like in the big book, it's like that tornado that it will pick up anything in the vicinity and just destroy it in order to maintain its core, that thing.

00:34:02Marc:Well, that's the weird thing about you do have a choice at these crossroads of how you're going to live your life.

00:34:09Marc:And if you want to be a safer person and you know that you're fucked up in these ways, I mean, either you're going to walk through it or you're just going to shut down altogether and die inside.

00:34:20Guest:And I think you actually, when you get to that crossroads, if you even see that you're at a crossroads, if you choose to not...

00:34:28Guest:And acknowledge, I think you actually become more dangerous because you double down on the armor.

00:34:34Marc:But you might also isolate.

00:34:36Marc:Oh, yeah, you can for sure isolate.

00:34:38Marc:Right.

00:34:38Marc:So which is less dangerous to most people, but to you, it's just a hell.

00:34:42Guest:And I think most people would argue, at least in my field, that psychological isolation is the most dangerous human condition we experience.

00:34:49Guest:For the individual, for society?

00:34:51Marc:Both.

00:34:52Marc:Both.

00:34:52Guest:Why?

00:34:53Marc:Because he might snap?

00:34:54Yeah.

00:34:55Guest:Yeah.

00:34:55Guest:And I don't think it's dramatic as a snap.

00:34:57Guest:I think it is.

00:34:58Guest:I think anyone you're connected to is wounded by it.

00:35:01Guest:And I do think when we see people snapping, it's driven often by psychological isolation.

00:35:06Marc:Right.

00:35:07Marc:And which is enforced by technological isolation and the ability to live a life alone that feels very active and also nameless in the type of behavior you can engage with online.

00:35:20Marc:Right.

00:35:20Guest:Totally, because we confuse communication with connectedness.

00:35:24Guest:I mean, all these social media tools, which I love and use too, but they're not connection tools.

00:35:28Guest:They're communication tools.

00:35:30Guest:Right.

00:35:30Guest:And there's a big ass difference.

00:35:32Marc:Yeah, because the people you're communicating a lot of times are just like-minded weirdos who are up to no good, and nobody knows anybody's name, and it's exciting.

00:35:42Marc:Yeah.

00:35:42Guest:It's exciting and there's no risk.

00:35:44Guest:So if I say, if I go onto Facebook or something and say, hey, this thing really happened to me today and it was so hard, it's not as vulnerable as picking up the phone and calling you and saying, hey, Mark, it's Brene, do you have a minute?

00:35:54Guest:I mean, that's an ask.

00:35:56Marc:I know.

00:35:56Marc:No one wants to pick up the phone.

00:35:58Marc:They don't even want to email barely.

00:36:00Marc:No.

00:36:00Marc:Just text.

00:36:01Guest:Just text and like I'll slide into your DMs.

00:36:03Guest:It's the worst.

00:36:04Marc:It's the worst.

00:36:05Marc:Yeah.

00:36:05Marc:Yeah, but I'm guilty.

00:36:06Marc:Oh, me too.

00:36:07Marc:Okay.

00:36:08Marc:So let's go back.

00:36:09Marc:Let's judge them.

00:36:10Marc:Yeah.

00:36:10Marc:No.

00:36:11Marc:Yeah.

00:36:11Marc:No, of course.

00:36:12Marc:We're not that bad.

00:36:13Marc:No, we're not as bad as we could be worse.

00:36:14Marc:Yeah.

00:36:15Marc:I mean, we use it because we're busy.

00:36:17Marc:And it's like, you know, I have time to talk.

00:36:19Guest:Yeah.

00:36:19Guest:For greater good.

00:36:20Guest:Our reason is different.

00:36:22Marc:exactly why don't people understand i don't know so okay so you you you you go to the social work school yeah and you're going to be a researcher yeah and you know you write i saw like a couple of academic piece papers you're doing the big work you're getting attention as an academic and as a researcher and then you decide on shame

00:36:47Guest:No, I wanted to do my dissertation on shame, but my dissertation chair was like, not a good topic.

00:36:51Guest:And then I was like... Why?

00:36:54Marc:What was his argument?

00:36:56Guest:It was a her, and her argument was like, this seems really important to you.

00:37:00Guest:Don't do something that our committee is going to own that's important to you, because they'll tear it up.

00:37:05Guest:And I was like, no, I still want to do it.

00:37:06Guest:And then I went to the stacks, the library, for those of you that don't know.

00:37:10Guest:And the very first paper I found said the decision to study shame has been the death of many academic careers.

00:37:16Guest:Really?

00:37:17Guest:You just said that in a book?

00:37:19Guest:You just happened upon the book?

00:37:20Guest:An article.

00:37:20Guest:Yeah, no, and I was looking up shame in academics.

00:37:22Guest:And now looking back 20 years ago, I understand why.

00:37:25Guest:Why?

00:37:26Guest:You know what?

00:37:27Guest:This really weird, it's like a syndrome.

00:37:30Guest:When you're a reader and you read something about shame, people get so sucked into it.

00:37:36Guest:that they can't stay objective about what they're reading.

00:37:40Guest:Like even editors have a hard time editing my book sometimes because they're like, oh my God, this is me.

00:37:45Guest:I didn't know you could talk about this.

00:37:48Marc:I didn't know this had a name.

00:37:49Marc:People immediately personalize it because they live in it.

00:37:52Guest:Yeah, there's no us and them with shame.

00:37:54Guest:Like we all have it.

00:37:55Guest:So it's hard not to get sucked into it.

00:37:58Guest:And I think the word shame.

00:38:01Guest:But shouldn't academics be more objective than that?

00:38:05Marc:Yeah.

00:38:06Marc:Yeah.

00:38:06Marc:We have they're just people and often a deep shame.

00:38:08Marc:Yeah.

00:38:09Guest:Yeah.

00:38:09Marc:Well, yeah, because they wanted to do something else.

00:38:12Guest:And yeah.

00:38:13Guest:And the system, the academics is basically.

00:38:16Guest:Yeah.

00:38:16Guest:It's a shamey place.

00:38:17Marc:And it's also very insulated and, you know, very self-important sometimes.

00:38:21Guest:Super.

00:38:21Guest:It's like, what is the Kissinger quote?

00:38:24Guest:A good one?

00:38:25Guest:Yeah, it's the only good one.

00:38:27Guest:It's the only one that he said that I think is true.

00:38:30Guest:The politics in the academy are so vicious precisely because the stakes are so small.

00:38:34Marc:Yeah, right.

00:38:35Marc:And it has to.

00:38:36Marc:And that's yeah, that makes sense.

00:38:37Marc:Yeah.

00:38:38Marc:But but I guess also like I want to make sure I talk about this.

00:38:43Marc:So I'm going to posit it now that, you know, not everybody, you know, struggles, he struggles like in order for you to find in your research that there are people that do feel that they're worthy and that they had, you know, at least one grounded parent that kept them somewhat with their, you know, with a sense of self that could move through the world and not in self-destructive or destructive way.

00:39:04Guest:that there is this that a lot of this some of this stuff doesn't apply to everybody i know i would disagree okay i would say that the people who kind of we defined as wholehearted who really find self-worth and who they are and can be authentic a lot of them fought for that they weren't necessarily they know they were fighting yes

00:39:27Guest:Some of them were raised with it, but that's the biggest, I would say 80% fought, 20% had it instilled.

00:39:32Guest:One way or the other.

00:39:33Marc:Yeah.

00:39:34Marc:One way or the other.

00:39:35Marc:They figured it out.

00:39:36Guest:They figured it out.

00:39:36Marc:That's the interesting thing about these type of topics, which you stay out of spirituality.

00:39:44Marc:In terms of talking about it with any, you know what I mean?

00:39:48Marc:It doesn't seem to be the drive.

00:39:50Marc:The drive is practical.

00:39:52Marc:Yeah.

00:39:52Marc:And that, you know, that can have its place, I guess, not unlike therapy can have its place.

00:39:58Marc:But, you know, these are the issues.

00:39:59Marc:And this is what the research shows that if you're filled with shame, you know, this is going to I feel like I feel like I don't want for people who don't know you.

00:40:08Marc:I think we just I have to get to, you know, what the what the thrust of, you know, what you found out was.

00:40:16Marc:So you just so you you're in the stacks and you say, fuck academia.

00:40:20Marc:I'm going to do shame.

00:40:22Guest:I did.

00:40:22Guest:And then I did my dissertation and got out and I said, I'm going to study for shame for six months and move on.

00:40:28Guest:It turned into six years.

00:40:30Guest:But I think for me...

00:40:33Guest:I think for me, the big thing is that I ended up studying all the kind of experiences and emotions that give meaning to our lives.

00:40:42Guest:I mean, I think, you know, all of us know that warm wash that comes over us that makes us feel small and not enough, you know?

00:40:48Marc:I've been feeling it on and off through this conversation.

00:40:51Guest:Have you?

00:40:52Marc:No, you have not, liar.

00:40:53Marc:A little.

00:40:55Marc:No, not even a little.

00:40:57Marc:No.

00:40:57Marc:I felt it.

00:40:57Marc:I think I felt it the first time I watched the first TED Talk.

00:41:02Marc:I was like, I can't.

00:41:04Marc:Just got to figure it out.

00:41:05Guest:I'm never going to figure it out.

00:41:08Guest:I think I have figured out what we need to do.

00:41:11Guest:I haven't figured out how personally to do it, for sure.

00:41:13Guest:I mean, that's a work in progress.

00:41:15Guest:That's relieving.

00:41:15Guest:Yeah, no, it's both relieving.

00:41:17Guest:You would think that I would just get a free pass on it, but no.

00:41:20Guest:It's super hard for me.

00:41:22Guest:And now, with the Netflix special coming out and doing that kind of stuff, that's an awkward place for someone who's a research professor.

00:41:29Marc:That's weird.

00:41:30Marc:Right.

00:41:30Marc:Well, I imagine let's go back and we'll talk about it because I want people to understand what you do.

00:41:36Marc:So you spent six years researching shame and that feeling of less than.

00:41:40Marc:Everybody identifies.

00:41:42Guest:Yeah.

00:41:42Guest:And then I really started like kind of writing on shame.

00:41:45Guest:What is it?

00:41:46Guest:What isn't it?

00:41:47Guest:How is it different from guilt?

00:41:48Guest:Humiliation?

00:41:49Guest:Embarrassment?

00:41:49Marc:I like that separation.

00:41:51Marc:Shame is, you know, I am bad.

00:41:53Marc:Guilt is I did something bad.

00:41:54Guest:Yeah.

00:41:55Guest:Because there's a huge difference.

00:41:56Marc:I mean, there is.

00:41:57Marc:But but guilt always leads to shame.

00:41:59Marc:Not always.

00:42:00Marc:Really?

00:42:00Guest:No, guilt.

00:42:01Guest:I'm pro-guilt.

00:42:02Marc:Okay.

00:42:03Marc:Because that's a self-regulator.

00:42:05Guest:It is.

00:42:06Guest:It's adaptive.

00:42:09Guest:Guilt is, I did something, I hold it up against my values and think, this is not aligned with my values, I need to change it or make amends.

00:42:15Guest:Shame is, not I did something bad, but I'm a shitty person.

00:42:19Marc:And the thing is that I want to say, and I think you know.

00:42:23Marc:Are you getting mad at me?

00:42:24Marc:No, I'm listening.

00:42:25Guest:This is what I do when I listen intently.

00:42:28Marc:See, I thought, like, oh, Christ, he's talking again, and he thinks he knows what I do.

00:42:31Marc:No, I'm listening.

00:42:32Guest:It's my listening face.

00:42:33Marc:Did you see what I just did, though?

00:42:34Marc:I just had the warm wash of, like, shame right there.

00:42:37Marc:I'm like, you're listening.

00:42:39Marc:But I decided she's judging me.

00:42:41Marc:She's had enough of my ideas.

00:42:42Marc:She's got this figured out.

00:42:44Marc:Why am I not giving her more time?

00:42:46Guest:That didn't happen?

00:42:47Guest:No.

00:42:47Guest:And I'm leaning in saying this is really interesting.

00:42:50Marc:You who doesn't like one-on-one conversation.

00:42:52Guest:No, I do like one-on-one.

00:42:53Guest:I want to retract that.

00:42:54Guest:I like one-on-one.

00:42:54Guest:I don't like small talk.

00:42:55Marc:I don't like bullshit.

00:42:56Marc:I don't know how to do it.

00:42:57Marc:It's great.

00:42:58Marc:I do it sometimes at the beginning just to make people comfortable.

00:43:01Marc:The thing about shame that in my experience personally is that, you know, if, do you ever read Robert Firestone?

00:43:08Marc:Mm-mm.

00:43:08Ugh.

00:43:08Marc:All right.

00:43:10Marc:So.

00:43:12Marc:But note to self.

00:43:13Marc:No, he wrote a book called The Fantasy Bond.

00:43:15Marc:And there's a few books in my life that have sort of changed my perception.

00:43:18Marc:Yeah.

00:43:18Marc:Like not unlike your white light moments.

00:43:20Marc:I've had a couple.

00:43:21Marc:One with Ernest Becker's Denial of Death, which, you know, kind of posits the idea that people have almost a genetic need to feel special.

00:43:28Marc:part of something bigger than themselves to find meaning in life.

00:43:32Marc:And there's like, for a long time, I kind of held that, that, you know, we're all in existential terror.

00:43:36Marc:So, you know, why wouldn't we be doing all the things we're doing?

00:43:39Marc:But you have, you know, broadened that and sort of pushed aside the existential terror thing to sort of create this spectrum of actual human reactions and behaviors that more dictate, you know, what our problems are.

00:43:52Guest:Yeah.

00:43:52Guest:But I do believe in the belonging.

00:43:55Marc:Yeah, for sure.

00:43:57Right.

00:43:57Marc:But the Firestone thing is basically that if you grew up with any sort of parental emotional abuse or emotional neglect, this is what blew my mind about shame.

00:44:07Marc:And I think this is like the big problem.

00:44:09Marc:And I don't think you can really have the time necessarily to talk to anybody's specific trauma or why they are going to resonate in however they're going to with your conversations.

00:44:19Marc:Right.

00:44:20Marc:But like the epiphany I had the other day was like when you say like, you know, being vulnerable and moving through stuff and showing up with your authentic self to be is courageous and that you're not going to it's not going to kill you.

00:44:35Marc:There's part of me that's sort of like, no, no, no, it might.

00:44:38Marc:You know, like it could kill me.

00:44:40Marc:Right.

00:44:40Marc:Well, yeah, because, OK, so I'm going to go in with my authentic self and great.

00:44:44Marc:I'm going to let my authentic self be crushed.

00:44:46Marc:Whereas if I just would have worn just half my armor, maybe I could have moved through it a little easier.

00:44:52Marc:You could have taken some blows.

00:44:53Marc:Right, but now it's going to take five years for me to fucking rebuild and whatever and, you know, whatever caused it.

00:44:57Marc:And, you know, then you have to, you know, sort of like, that's neither here nor there, kind of.

00:45:02Marc:But the fantasy bond is essentially that if a child is not cared for or nurtured properly or allowed to develop themselves, when they feel uncomfortable...

00:45:14Marc:You know, or that, you know, they're not getting that stuff and they feel bad.

00:45:20Marc:The only thing they can do is blame themselves because the parents are parents.

00:45:23Marc:It can't be the parents fault.

00:45:24Marc:And that happens innately.

00:45:25Marc:So you put in place this very judgmental parent.

00:45:28Marc:I think that's true.

00:45:29Marc:Inside.

00:45:30Guest:I think there's a lot of truth.

00:45:31Guest:I think we make up a narrative that's not she wasn't capable of loving me.

00:45:36Guest:It's I am unlovable.

00:45:37Guest:Right.

00:45:38Guest:I do think that is.

00:45:39Guest:And I think that is forms a huge basis of shame.

00:45:42Marc:Right.

00:45:42Marc:And it's not just it's not the basis.

00:45:44Marc:It's the core of what some people call home.

00:45:46Marc:Yeah.

00:45:47Marc:Inside.

00:45:47Marc:For sure.

00:45:48Guest:So every time something hurts, they look for the narrative that explains what they did wrong.

00:45:53Marc:And also it becomes comforting.

00:45:54Marc:They don't know that there's another option that isn't terrifying, like joy or letting go.

00:46:00Guest:They don't know that.

00:46:01Guest:And so that's where, I mean, it is, I mean, this is the heart of it.

00:46:05Guest:Because shame is basically the fear that there's something about us or something we've done or failed to do that makes us unlovable and unworthy of connection and belonging.

00:46:14Guest:And so I do think that becomes home for people.

00:46:17Guest:Right.

00:46:17Marc:And they keep doing things to strengthen it.

00:46:19Guest:To validate it.

00:46:20Guest:Yeah.

00:46:20Guest:No, I think that's right.

00:46:21Guest:And I think...

00:46:23Guest:It's interesting.

00:46:23Guest:There's something, I think, in Rising Strong or somewhere I wrote something that one of the greatest, most dangerous stories we tell ourselves is about our lovability.

00:46:34Guest:That we are not lovable because someone wasn't willing or didn't have the ability to love us.

00:46:38Guest:And I think when I say that, people just can't speak sometimes.

00:46:43Guest:It just hits people like...

00:46:46Guest:But I thought this was about my lovability.

00:46:47Guest:I'm like, no, because that person didn't have the capacity or wasn't willing.

00:46:52Guest:Right.

00:46:52Guest:It's not a reflection of how lovable you are.

00:46:53Guest:Right.

00:46:54Guest:You know, and that is the core of shame.

00:46:56Guest:Right.

00:46:56Guest:That's the core of self-worth.

00:46:57Guest:And I think it's very hard.

00:47:00Guest:You know, vulnerability is courage, basically.

00:47:03Guest:Vulnerability is uncertainty, risk, emotional exposure, the willingness to show up when we can't control the outcome.

00:47:09Guest:Which is almost never possible.

00:47:11Guest:We can never control the outcome because you can't control what people think or perspective.

00:47:14Marc:That's one thing I liked about the Netflix special is that that that realization that, you know, that our brain as as a biological function to sort of manage fear creates bad visions.

00:47:27Marc:Bad stories about what could happen.

00:47:29Guest:Yeah.

00:47:30Guest:Because its job is to protect us.

00:47:31Marc:That's the only way I use my imagination.

00:47:33Marc:Oh, it's going to be bad.

00:47:34Marc:Me too.

00:47:35Guest:It's foreboding joy.

00:47:36Guest:Like if something good is happening, I'm like, oh, shit, we're in for.

00:47:39Guest:Yeah.

00:47:40Guest:Yeah.

00:47:40Marc:I can't do the joy thing yet.

00:47:42Guest:Yeah.

00:47:42Marc:Sometimes.

00:47:44Guest:We can measure your capacity for vulnerability very specifically by how open you are to joy.

00:47:49Marc:I do a joke about it.

00:47:51Marc:You do?

00:47:52Marc:I do.

00:47:52Marc:I literally say that I don't know how to have fun.

00:47:58Marc:It seems ridiculous.

00:48:00Marc:Happiness, that's crazy.

00:48:02Marc:If I can get five or six minutes of relief a day, I'm good.

00:48:07Marc:Yeah.

00:48:07Marc:And it's gotten to the point where I'm skeptical of other people's joy.

00:48:11Marc:Like I just, I don't buy it.

00:48:12Marc:Like if someone says to me, we had a great time at that thing last night.

00:48:15Marc:I'm like, did you though?

00:48:16Marc:Did you have a great time?

00:48:17Marc:Or did you just not think about who you were for a couple hours?

00:48:22Guest:Yeah.

00:48:22Guest:We could never hang out for very long periods of time because, yeah, I think that cynicism is armor.

00:48:32Marc:Yeah, I know.

00:48:33Marc:And it hurts every time you do it, kind of.

00:48:36Marc:It does.

00:48:36Marc:Because you walk away.

00:48:36Marc:You know you're doing it.

00:48:38Marc:When you're doing it, you're like, why am I doing this?

00:48:40Marc:Why?

00:48:41Marc:Because then the other thing you said in the Netflix thing that resonated with me is that

00:48:46Marc:Like I did this other joke.

00:48:48Marc:These aren't jokes, but this is why I connect to what you were saying.

00:48:52Marc:It's like I say I'm not good at empathy, really, with anybody.

00:48:58Marc:And then I say in relationship, like I can understand other people's pain if I caused it.

00:49:07Marc:But, you know, I don't believe you're not good at empathy.

00:49:10Marc:No, I am now.

00:49:11Marc:But I mean that like, you know, because I had to engage it like, you know, I was so cynical and so bitter that, you know, I was was guarded and charming and funny and angry and all those things.

00:49:22Marc:But I am able to be deeply moved.

00:49:24Marc:I just found it threatening somehow.

00:49:26Marc:It's a different point in my life.

00:49:28Marc:Like, you know, anybody's joy, anybody's happiness, anybody was some sort of like judgment.

00:49:32Guest:Judgment.

00:49:33Guest:Yeah.

00:49:34Guest:No, I can do that as well, too.

00:49:35Marc:Yeah.

00:49:35Guest:I mean, I can.

00:49:37Guest:I think vulnerability for me is hard.

00:49:39Guest:It's really interesting.

00:49:40Guest:We do these exercises when we take leaders through this work.

00:49:42Guest:Yeah.

00:49:42Guest:And we said vulnerability is and then it's a blank.

00:49:45Guest:It's in a stem.

00:49:46Guest:And you have no idea how many people put vulnerability is the first step to betrayal.

00:49:51Guest:Like that's how people think of vulnerability.

00:49:53Guest:I'm going to get fucked.

00:49:54Guest:Yeah.

00:49:54Guest:I'm going to share something that's going to be used against me.

00:49:57Guest:Might.

00:49:58Guest:And you encourage that, you know, you got to take the hit, right?

00:50:02Guest:I encourage that you share with people who've earned the right to hear it.

00:50:05Guest:Like vulnerability without boundaries is just not vulnerability.

00:50:09Guest:It's desperation.

00:50:10Guest:It's oversharing.

00:50:11Guest:You're looking to get hit.

00:50:13Guest:Yeah.

00:50:14Guest:I don't know that you're looking to get hit.

00:50:15Guest:Not hit.

00:50:15Marc:I mean, I don't want to make sure I'm clear on this.

00:50:17Marc:Not hit, but like hurt.

00:50:19Guest:I don't know if you're looking to get hurt.

00:50:21Guest:You know, some people do.

00:50:22Guest:Some people share, overshare.

00:50:23Marc:Yeah, because they want to keep that shame going.

00:50:25Guest:Yeah.

00:50:25Guest:Some people overshare to get validation that they can't trust anybody or that no one will be there, which is really hard.

00:50:32Guest:I think we've all done that before.

00:50:33Marc:I was just in Ireland.

00:50:35Marc:Don't look for validation from the Irish.

00:50:37Marc:No?

00:50:37Marc:No.

00:50:37Marc:They're sort of like, meh.

00:50:39Yeah.

00:50:39Marc:Yeah, they're going to keep you in your place in a good way.

00:50:41Marc:It's nice.

00:50:42Marc:But no, I think you're right, you know, because I've done it publicly.

00:50:45Marc:And like, I don't know that.

00:50:47Marc:I think that in and of itself, oversharing and expressing that type of need and desperation is also a defense in some weird way.

00:50:56Guest:Oh, it's totally a defense.

00:50:58Marc:It's inverted or something.

00:50:59Guest:It's inverted armor.

00:51:00Guest:It is.

00:51:01Guest:And it's...

00:51:02Guest:It's often looking for validation that I'm as alone as I think I am.

00:51:07Guest:Right.

00:51:08Guest:And the validation is really- And special.

00:51:10Guest:And special.

00:51:11Guest:Right.

00:51:11Guest:The terminal uniqueness thing.

00:51:13Guest:Yeah.

00:51:14Guest:Yeah.

00:51:15Guest:I know that one.

00:51:15Guest:I know that one too.

00:51:16Guest:From the literature.

00:51:20Guest:From the Bible, from the Bibli.

00:51:22Marc:Yeah.

00:51:22Marc:The secret society literature.

00:51:25Marc:Well, where does all this shame come from, Brene?

00:51:27Marc:Why?

00:51:27Marc:Why is it?

00:51:29Marc:In your research, what did you do?

00:51:31Marc:Interview hundreds of shamed people?

00:51:33Guest:Yeah.

00:51:33Guest:We just crossed 400,000 pieces of data.

00:51:35Guest:Oh, my God.

00:51:36Marc:So, like, you really want, you and your, oh, you don't think that people know you're not a control freak?

00:51:42Marc:That's so rude, man.

00:51:44Marc:No.

00:51:44Guest:Yes.

00:51:45Guest:No.

00:51:46Marc:I'm just, I like it.

00:51:47Marc:I've got all of the evidence.

00:51:48Marc:This is an equation.

00:51:50Guest:It is.

00:51:50Guest:It's undeniable.

00:51:53Guest:Wait, have you ever done your Enneagram?

00:51:55Marc:Maybe once.

00:51:56Guest:I just did mine like a couple weeks ago.

00:51:58Guest:God, it pissed me off.

00:51:59Guest:But is it bullshit?

00:52:01Guest:I don't know because I don't know the science behind it, but all I know is it made me mad.

00:52:04Marc:I get a little nervous about the fun sort of like, hey, just get a tarot reading.

00:52:09Marc:I'm like, can't handle it.

00:52:11Marc:I can't handle it.

00:52:11Marc:Yeah, no.

00:52:12Marc:Because I know it's bullshit, but I'll walk away going like, oh, this is kind of...

00:52:16Marc:Oh, fuck.

00:52:17Marc:Yeah.

00:52:18Marc:I think I don't remember.

00:52:19Marc:Someone did it at some point.

00:52:21Guest:No, it was just funny because when they said, they said, you have really strong instincts and beliefs and you will spend your life collecting data to support them.

00:52:29Guest:That's what it said.

00:52:30Marc:Right.

00:52:30Guest:It pissed me off.

00:52:31Marc:Yeah.

00:52:32Marc:What got you?

00:52:32Guest:Yeah, it got me.

00:52:33Guest:It also said control is an issue.

00:52:35Marc:Yeah.

00:52:35Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:52:36Marc:I'm not trying to be rude.

00:52:37Marc:no I own it oh good it's me yeah I just I think I like I don't know what it is about me and people who are controlling I don't know that that I really am because I can't keep yeah I'm a little emotional you know like I'm a yeller and like you know and I'm like I'm a yeller oh okay yeah because apparently the like on my Enneagram apparently the emotion that underpins is rage and anger yeah me too yeah I got some of that sometimes oh yeah I just see the world like should be this way and it pisses me off when it's

00:53:07Marc:not the world people in general yeah like just like lines you know how this restaurant is operating everything i'm making a bad face like this is terrible yeah i don't want to be like that sometimes i think but i can be so let's like make sure we like so from shame you get to vulnerability and the sort of the basic message

00:53:32Marc:of, of what you're doing that is proactive.

00:53:35Marc:And I think that helps people.

00:53:36Marc:Like I wrote down when I, like I watched the, the, the, the two Ted talks and the Netflix special.

00:53:41Marc:And I realized like what I wrote down is exactly what somebody who was like wanting to understand what you were saying and taking notes during one of your lectures.

00:53:49Marc:Like,

00:53:50Marc:And I have it all here.

00:53:51Marc:And you say to yourself, like, when I get home, I'm going to like, this is how it's going to be.

00:53:56Marc:And the thing is, it's all very satisfying to hear.

00:53:58Marc:And you what you move through on stage and then what you feel, you know, you're crying.

00:54:02Marc:You're like, that's me.

00:54:04Marc:Oh, my God, that's so touching.

00:54:05Marc:Like, you know, I have to do that.

00:54:07Marc:But it's all up here.

00:54:08Marc:And I think that the making it, you know, making it action in your heart.

00:54:13Marc:Could take time.

00:54:15Guest:Oh, it completely takes time.

00:54:16Guest:I mean, you didn't build those walls overnight, and you're not going to take them down overnight.

00:54:21Guest:Right.

00:54:22Guest:And it's a practice.

00:54:23Guest:It's like I spend a lot of time, even with Steve, my husband, my kids, armoring up and coming across armored and then having to circle back and say, I apologize.

00:54:32Guest:When you told me that, I actually got scared.

00:54:34Guest:Right.

00:54:35Guest:And so this is what I do.

00:54:36Guest:I get scary when I'm scared sometimes.

00:54:38Guest:Yeah.

00:54:39Guest:And so...

00:54:40Guest:But that shit wears out.

00:54:41Guest:It does.

00:54:42Guest:It's so exhausting.

00:54:43Marc:It's just like you end up draining people.

00:54:44Marc:You do.

00:54:44Marc:And they're like, no, I'm not going to.

00:54:46Marc:See, that was the other thing that I wrote down is that, you know, in a lot of what you're talking about, vulnerability and empathy, you know, coming to empathy, which is the antidote.

00:54:55Guest:Yes.

00:54:56Marc:To all the things that blame, you know, manifests.

00:55:00Marc:Yes.

00:55:01Marc:Shame and blame is something that people do who are in shame.

00:55:05Marc:And the other thing that people do when they're in shame is, you know, what was the...

00:55:09Marc:The logic of violence, addiction, and all that, where does that come from?

00:55:17Guest:That's the differences between shame and guilt.

00:55:19Guest:People that are highly, kind of use a lot of guilt proneness.

00:55:22Guest:If you do something, if I knock this over on your desk right now, I'm like...

00:55:26Guest:That was a dumb thing to do, but I'm not a dumb person.

00:55:28Guest:People who can differentiate self from action, who are guilt prone, have lower rates of addiction, depression, violence, aggression, bullying, eating disorders.

00:55:37Guest:Shame is highly, highly correlated.

00:55:40Marc:To all of those.

00:55:40Marc:With all of those.

00:55:42Marc:Like you said that, to putting it out.

00:55:43Marc:You put your pain into other people.

00:55:45Marc:Yeah.

00:55:45Guest:Well, first you drill the hole through your heart with it.

00:55:49Guest:And then when that pain gets so bad, you lash out at other people.

00:55:52Oh.

00:55:52Marc:And you do the other stuff.

00:55:54Guest:Addiction and all that other stuff.

00:55:56Guest:Addiction and shame are so correlated that researchers really even have a hard time figuring out where one starts and the other ends.

00:56:03Guest:It's even hard to predict the timing.

00:56:06Guest:Were you shame prone first and then used addiction to self-medicate?

00:56:09Guest:Or did you have some kind of genetic addiction issue and that became shameful?

00:56:13Guest:Yeah.

00:56:13Guest:So shame and addiction are super correlated.

00:56:16Marc:So I guess my question around that is that with empathy, because there's some part when you've behaved a certain way or that you've lived a life in shame and you've acted out in all these different ways that are horrible and you finally realize it, that the ultimate fear is that...

00:56:31Marc:you know, to sort of have empathy and to let that go, that you'll never stop crying and that, you know, that vulnerability will be, you know, somehow judged.

00:56:41Marc:You won't be able to ever, you know, what is that fundamental fear of like, well, if I give in and I let myself, you know, grieve or process or engage the empathy or the vulnerability that I'm somehow going to be destroyed?

00:56:54Yeah.

00:56:55Guest:You know, I think, yeah, I think the fear is, like, in just really simple terms, if I take off the armor and let myself be seen, what if no one loves or cares for what they see?

00:57:06Marc:Yeah, I put a lot of work into this shtick.

00:57:09Guest:Yeah, I put a lot of work into the defense mechanisms.

00:57:14Guest:And so vulnerability, it's like...

00:57:16Guest:When I would go out and talk about vulnerability for years, it was so hard because so many of us were raised to believe that it's weakness, right?

00:57:21Guest:Like you just keep the armor up.

00:57:23Guest:And then I was working with special forces at Fort Bragg and I asked this question, like vulnerability is uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure.

00:57:30Guest:Like we feel vulnerable when we feel emotionally exposed, at risk, and uncertain.

00:57:36Guest:And I said, give me an example of courage in your life or in the life of someone that you know that didn't require vulnerability.

00:57:41Guest:Right.

00:57:41Guest:Give me one example of bravery that didn't require uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure.

00:57:45Guest:And there was just silence until this one guy stood up and said, three tours, ma'am.

00:57:49Guest:There is no courage without vulnerability.

00:57:52Guest:A week later, I'm with the Seahawks doing some work with Coach Carroll.

00:57:56Guest:Ask the guys and the players, give me an example of courage.

00:57:58Guest:Because they're all like, vulnerability, why is she here talking to us about vulnerability?

00:58:02Guest:I said, give me a single example of courage on the field or off.

00:58:05Guest:That doesn't require vulnerability.

00:58:06Guest:They're like, there is no courage without vulnerability after they thought about it.

00:58:09Guest:We've asked that question to 15,000 people now.

00:58:11Guest:Like, I'm still freaking wanting the answer where you can be brave and you don't have to be vulnerable, but it doesn't exist.

00:58:18Marc:But that seems to be, it could be a kind of a broad definition of vulnerability.

00:58:24Marc:I mean, vulnerability in a combat situation is, you're just there.

00:58:28Marc:You're out there in it.

00:58:30Marc:You're innately vulnerable.

00:58:32Guest:Yes.

00:58:32Guest:Whether it's a parenting situation.

00:58:34Mm-hmm.

00:58:35Guest:situation with your partner or you're in battle.

00:58:40Guest:It's uncertainty, it's risk, and it's emotional exposure.

00:58:45Guest:And the hard thing is for a lot of folks, you know, when we do work with the military and veterans, vulnerability is death.

00:58:52Right.

00:58:53Guest:So they literally come home thinking, if I'm vulnerable, I'll get killed.

00:58:58Guest:So then they come home and have a really hard time engaging with their partners and their children and their community because... It corrupted their entire vulnerability structure.

00:59:06Guest:And some of us were corrupted just the way we were raised.

00:59:09Guest:And then you've got real casualties of trauma too.

00:59:12Guest:So you have people who are...

00:59:14Guest:Because of racism and sexism and those things, you have to armor up.

00:59:20Marc:Right.

00:59:21Marc:So how do you maintain your vulnerability in that?

00:59:24Marc:And why don't you sell me on that?

00:59:26Guest:I will sell you on that because here's what I'll say.

00:59:28Guest:We have to work for systemic change.

00:59:31Right.

00:59:31Guest:But while we're working on systemic change, we still have to create safe, brave spaces where you can take off the armor.

00:59:36Guest:If you're a teacher and kids literally have to be armored to get to school every day and get home physically and emotionally, it's your job to create a space for six hours where they can take that shit off and breathe and see the world.

00:59:50Guest:Right.

00:59:52Guest:We have to create spaces where people can breathe, where they can take the armor off, even if we have to acknowledge that when they leave, they have to put it back on.

01:00:02Guest:So I think it's a two-pronged approach, like fight the systemic stuff and create spaces where people can be seen.

01:00:08Marc:And this is like, and that also goes, you know, in a more, which is probably more challenging because it's not necessarily systemic outside of individuals that, you know, in your relationships with people.

01:00:18Marc:God, it's hard.

01:00:19Marc:You know, that you have, because you, you have habits, you have patterns, you have the way you understand each other, which can become, you know, just, you know, death rattle, you know, just a death dance.

01:00:30Guest:Totally.

01:00:30Guest:Yeah.

01:00:30Guest:And I mean, when we ask people like, what is vulnerable for you?

01:00:33Guest:What is vulnerability for you?

01:00:34Marc:Yeah.

01:00:35Guest:Like the answer is like saying, I love you first.

01:00:37Guest:Right.

01:00:39Guest:You know, the first date after my divorce, trying to get pregnant after my second miscarriage, you know, sitting with my wife who has, you know, breast cancer, stage four, talking about plans for our toddlers.

01:00:51Guest:Like how how the mythology that vulnerability is weakness.

01:00:56Guest:Yeah.

01:00:58Guest:you know, started is beyond me because those things are scary.

01:01:01Marc:Yeah.

01:01:02Guest:But there's just no calculus where they're weak, weak.

01:01:05Marc:Yeah.

01:01:06Marc:I, you know, it seems like that's why people always say, you know, bullies are actually weak because, you know, they have to act this way to hurt others in order to make up for their own sort of loss or, you know, lack of self-worth.

01:01:20Guest:Yeah.

01:01:20Guest:Fear.

01:01:20Guest:Yeah.

01:01:21Guest:Shame.

01:01:22Guest:Bullying is very tied to shame.

01:01:23Guest:Yeah.

01:01:24Marc:Yeah.

01:01:24Marc:So moving through, and that shame that could have been, you know, wired into a kid from his old man or from his mother.

01:01:31Marc:Totally.

01:01:32Marc:You know, that's the other systemic problem.

01:01:35Marc:The bigger systemic problem outside of schools is, you know, how do you...

01:01:40Marc:How do you dictate how parents should act and how humans should act?

01:01:46Marc:I mean, that seems to be the wild card in all this.

01:01:48Guest:It's the total wild card.

01:01:49Guest:That's why I'm not sure that it's the best intervention point.

01:01:52Guest:Yeah.

01:01:52Guest:Like if you said you can talk to a thousand educators or a thousand parents, I'm going to pick the educators because parents sometimes say, you know what?

01:02:04Guest:My dad shamed the shit out of me and I turned out okay.

01:02:06Marc:Right.

01:02:07Marc:Yeah.

01:02:07Marc:You know?

01:02:07Marc:Yeah.

01:02:08Marc:Did you?

01:02:08Guest:Yeah.

01:02:09Yeah.

01:02:09Guest:That's where I'm like, did you?

01:02:11Guest:Did you really?

01:02:12Marc:I can tell by your tone that you're okay.

01:02:14Guest:Yeah.

01:02:15Marc:Yeah.

01:02:15Marc:Mind your own business.

01:02:16Guest:Yeah.

01:02:17Guest:Yeah.

01:02:18Guest:Or, you know, oh, man.

01:02:20Guest:Yeah.

01:02:20Guest:Shame in parenting is rough.

01:02:22Marc:Yeah.

01:02:22Marc:I can't imagine it.

01:02:23Marc:And I get... So, now...

01:02:25Marc:So the work is really to get to a place where vulnerability is safe and also actively engaging in empathy.

01:02:37Marc:I don't think it comes natural.

01:02:39Marc:I mean, like what you were talking about.

01:02:41Marc:Or, you know, when somebody has problems and you try to fix them, like codependency is sort of some kind of malignant empathy.

01:02:53Guest:That's a great word for it.

01:02:55Guest:It's just not.

01:02:56Guest:Yeah, it's it's almost the opposite, because.

01:02:59Guest:And interestingly, codependent, and I speak from both personal and professional knowledge, codependency is driven by selfishness usually.

01:03:06Guest:Sure.

01:03:06Guest:It's like, it is like, I need you to stop behaving this way because it's actually scary for me.

01:03:14Marc:Right.

01:03:14Marc:You know.

01:03:15Marc:Well, that's recovery.

01:03:17Guest:Yeah, that is recovery.

01:03:18Marc:Yeah, but this sort of the job of trying to get someone to behave a certain way, you know, enables you to not deal with your own shit.

01:03:25Marc:Totally.

01:03:25Marc:But then the downside of that is it annihilates your sense of self.

01:03:29Guest:It does.

01:03:29Guest:It's because you don't you.

01:03:31Guest:Here's what's interesting.

01:03:32Guest:This is my this is my theory that I think is backed up by data.

01:03:35Guest:You cannot be empathic with someone if you don't know where you end and they begin.

01:03:39Marc:Right.

01:03:40Marc:Right.

01:03:41Marc:Yeah.

01:03:41Marc:Do you mean?

01:03:42Marc:Sure.

01:03:43Marc:Sure.

01:03:43Marc:Yeah.

01:03:43Marc:Because, you know, if you are sort of if there's no cap on your personality.

01:03:47Marc:Right.

01:03:47Marc:You're just going to kind of like mesh almost immediately.

01:03:51Marc:Totally.

01:03:51Marc:You know, you're just one of those people like, you know, oh, look, we're one part.

01:03:54Marc:You're an appendage.

01:03:55Marc:Right.

01:03:55Guest:You're an appendage.

01:03:56Guest:It is.

01:03:57Guest:And that's, I don't know where we, like I end and you begin.

01:04:01Guest:So everything, I question the motivation behind everything you're doing for me.

01:04:05Marc:Right.

01:04:06Marc:Is that terrible?

01:04:07Marc:Bad relationship.

01:04:08Marc:Yeah.

01:04:09Marc:It's tough.

01:04:09Marc:Someone's going to get tired.

01:04:10Marc:Someone's going to get tired.

01:04:12Marc:So, okay.

01:04:13Marc:So creating a space for vulnerability and empathy and, you know, and trying to hold that space in your relationships or institutionally.

01:04:21Marc:And then, you know, hopefully, you know, the, the loving with your whole, what is it?

01:04:26Marc:Wholehearted.

01:04:27Guest:Yeah.

01:04:27Guest:Wholehearted.

01:04:27Guest:That's what we call, I was trying to figure out like, what is, how would you define this group of people that I'm finding the research that like.

01:04:33Mm-hmm.

01:04:33Guest:completely believe that they're enough, even when they screw things up and make mistakes.

01:04:40Guest:Yeah.

01:04:40Guest:And imperfect shit happens to them.

01:04:42Guest:Yeah.

01:04:42Guest:And I was like, I think they're wholehearted.

01:04:45Guest:Yeah.

01:04:45Guest:And one thing I want to say, though, that you said making vulnerability safe, I need it needs to be safe.

01:04:50Guest:It doesn't have to be comfortable.

01:04:51Guest:Like, I'm so over the need that everyone has for comfort.

01:04:56Yeah.

01:04:57Marc:Yeah, I don't have that problem.

01:04:58Marc:I'm always uncomfortable.

01:05:01Guest:Me too.

01:05:01Guest:A little bit.

01:05:02Guest:I'm always a little uncomfortable too.

01:05:03Marc:Unless I'm by myself.

01:05:05Marc:I think that like I don't think I'm an introvert, but I do find, you know, left to my own devices, I probably won't do much.

01:05:14Marc:Yeah.

01:05:14Marc:And I'll hang out by myself and I'll dick around with, you know, like multitasking nothing.

01:05:19Marc:Yeah.

01:05:20Marc:Me too.

01:05:21Marc:I got multi nothing done.

01:05:23Marc:So I guess then like my question, something I didn't hear you talk about, which I think is tricky now culturally in that, you know, you talk about, you know, the spaces that are being created for women and, you know, around, you know, race and gender issues, which are proactive and great is that like, maybe I, maybe it's in the book, but what I didn't hear was the importance of forgiveness.

01:05:49Marc:Right.

01:05:54Guest:Shit.

01:05:56Guest:When I wrote The Gifts of Imperfection, that was 10 years ago.

01:05:58Guest:Yeah.

01:06:00Guest:I had a chapter on forgiveness.

01:06:03Guest:And right before I went to publication, I did a focus group with rabbis.

01:06:08Guest:And I'm a grounded theory researcher, which means one of the rules in grounded theory, there are no outliers.

01:06:13Guest:You can't put a bunch of data on sticky notes and be like, oh, this shit doesn't fit with everything else.

01:06:17Guest:I'm going to stuff it into my pocket.

01:06:20Guest:All the data matters.

01:06:22Guest:Well, these rabbis blew my whole theory that I was going to publish in The Gifts of Imperfection and Forgiveness out of the water.

01:06:28Guest:I was like, oh, my God, this doesn't fit with what I was going to write.

01:06:32Guest:Wow.

01:06:32Wow.

01:06:33Guest:It was about forgiveness and self-worth and self-protection.

01:06:43Guest:I think that's what it was about.

01:06:44Guest:So I pulled out of the gifts and I'm like, I'm not going to mess with forgiveness.

01:06:47Guest:Somebody else can do that.

01:06:49Guest:Then I'm writing Rising Strong like six years later.

01:06:51Marc:Wait, why rabbis and what was their particular?

01:06:54Marc:As a Jew, I'm just curious.

01:06:55Yeah.

01:06:56Guest:They were talking about... But why'd you put it before rabbis?

01:07:01Marc:I mean, how was that?

01:07:02Marc:Sort of like, I got a forgiveness thing.

01:07:03Marc:I better talk to the Jews.

01:07:04Marc:I mean, what was... No, no, no.

01:07:05Marc:I'd already talked to everybody else.

01:07:06Marc:The Jews were the sticking point.

01:07:09Marc:You got to get the Jews on board.

01:07:10Guest:But yeah, I had to get the Jews... Because it's a spiritual idea.

01:07:13Guest:It's a spiritual idea.

01:07:15Guest:Yeah.

01:07:15Guest:And what I realized is a lot of what I was coming from were Christian beliefs and Zen beliefs.

01:07:21Guest:Mm-hmm.

01:07:22Guest:But I was like, let me talk to this group of rabbis.

01:07:25Guest:And they were like, no, we don't agree.

01:07:29Guest:With what?

01:07:30Guest:Let me think about what it was.

01:07:32Guest:Sorry.

01:07:32Guest:Well, I know what it ended up being, but I don't think I knew that at the time.

01:07:35Guest:I just knew it didn't fit.

01:07:36Guest:What it ended up being, which is what I put into Rising Strong, because then their data made tons of sense.

01:07:41Guest:Yeah.

01:07:42Guest:was the role of grief in forgiveness.

01:07:45Guest:And it didn't strike me until one day, actually, I was at church and the priest that was talking, he said, in order for forgiveness to happen, something has to die.

01:07:56Guest:And I was like, well, that's within you.

01:07:58Guest:Yes.

01:07:59Guest:Die, period.

01:08:00Guest:And I was like, well, that seems like a very Christian narrative, like because Jesus dies, that kind of stuff.

01:08:04Guest:But then I went back to the rabbi stuff.

01:08:06Guest:I'm still not wrapping my brain.

01:08:07Guest:OK, let me get to it.

01:08:08Guest:So one of the reasons I think forgiveness is so hard is because we have a pathological fear of loss and grief.

01:08:16Guest:Humans do.

01:08:17Guest:Do you agree with that part?

01:08:18Guest:Well, that's the death terror.

01:08:19Guest:That's right.

01:08:20Guest:OK.

01:08:21Yeah.

01:08:21Guest:So in order for forgiveness to happen, we normally have to go through a grieving period.

01:08:26Guest:So if you and I are married and you have an affair and we decide to work it out, there still is a death and a grief of an idea, a promise.

01:08:36Guest:Something has to be, I mean, something has to die.

01:08:38Marc:Of loyalty.

01:08:39Guest:Of loyalty, trust.

01:08:40Guest:Commitment.

01:08:41Marc:Yeah.

01:08:41Marc:Right.

01:08:42Right.

01:08:42Guest:And so one of the things I really learned about forgiveness is that one of the reasons we hold on so much to rage and resentment and anger is because that's so much easier than grief.

01:08:55Guest:I'm never going to forgive my father.

01:08:59Guest:Hmm.

01:09:01Guest:for who he was because I don't wanna grieve what I didn't get.

01:09:06Guest:I'd rather be, most of us like our emotion with a little agency.

01:09:12Guest:Grief is a hard emotion.

01:09:14Guest:It's loss, it's longing, it's hard.

01:09:18Guest:And so one of the things I think about forgiveness is we're much better at causing pain than feeling pain.

01:09:27Guest:Sure.

01:09:28Guest:And I think for forgiveness to happen, we have to feel pain.

01:09:32Marc:Right.

01:09:32Marc:And I think that gets back to that that core existential idea of most people's true irrational inability to accept death, period.

01:09:44Guest:I think that's true.

01:09:46Marc:And you can accept it as an intellectual idea.

01:09:48Marc:I mean, we all know we're going to die.

01:09:49Marc:But the true terror of not being able to incorporate that rationally as part of life, an inevitability that should dictate how you live your life.

01:10:00Marc:is lost in consumer culture and I think in general.

01:10:04Marc:For sure.

01:10:05Marc:Right?

01:10:06Guest:No, I agree.

01:10:06Guest:I agree.

01:10:07Guest:And I think that's what the rabbis were talking about.

01:10:09Guest:The rabbis said, you don't have enough pain in your construct of forgiveness.

01:10:15Marc:Interesting.

01:10:16Marc:Because the reason I bring that up only is because, you know, when you talk about, you know, empathy, vulnerability, empathy being the cure that like I just wondered when you sort of assess culture that where we're at right now, like if you really look, if we're going to generalize.

01:10:31Marc:the sort of right and left, you know, and the faults of the right and left on the political idea is that right now, the sort of, the right's kind of way of dealing is like, never apologize.

01:10:45Marc:Never apologize.

01:10:46Marc:Double down if necessary.

01:10:48Marc:There's no shame.

01:10:49Marc:Even if there is, fuck it.

01:10:51Marc:Don't apologize.

01:10:52Marc:And then the left, it's becoming never forgive.

01:10:58Guest:So... I think those are...

01:11:01Guest:Scary, accurate.

01:11:05Marc:So what I'm asking you in your rubric, if that's the right word, is that how do we facilitate a conversation, even if you're going to disregard or cut cut and run the people that shamelessly don't apologize and seem seemingly are nihilistic and don't give a shit about the pain they cause of the damage they cause and deal with the kind of like, you know, the self eating feeding frenzy of the vulnerable.

01:11:30Yeah.

01:11:30Marc:in their need for righteousness or justice.

01:11:36Marc:Do you know what I mean?

01:11:36Marc:It just seems that we're having a cultural conversation about wanting people to change, wanting men to behave differently, wanting white men to behave differently, wanting men, period, to behave differently.

01:11:48Marc:How does that conversation actually happen as opposed to just people being made examples of and then kind of

01:11:57Marc:you know, exiled without any avenue for conversation or forgiveness.

01:12:04Marc:I know this might be the boiling point and stuff will level out, but I'm just wondering how that conversation happens in your point of view.

01:12:18Guest:I mean, I definitely don't have an answer.

01:12:19Guest:I think it's going to happen...

01:12:27Guest:I don't think I can take any more talking in group terms.

01:12:34Guest:The right, the left, the white men.

01:12:35Guest:I think the only way I see real change happening is on the ground, connected, real people.

01:12:43Guest:and not categories, because I just don't believe anything I see anymore, which is just the weirdest, untethered place.

01:12:52Marc:What's true, what isn't.

01:12:53Marc:What's true.

01:12:53Marc:And where does it leave you?

01:12:55Guest:Yeah.

01:12:56Marc:What is our perception based on?

01:12:57Marc:How do we know what we know and what are we reacting to?

01:12:59Marc:Because there's so much coming in.

01:13:01Guest:There's so much coming in.

01:13:02Guest:And so all I can do is deal with the people in front of me.

01:13:06Marc:I think that's true.

01:13:07Guest:It's all I can do is deal with the people in front of me, hold people accountable in a way that I'd want to be held accountable.

01:13:13Guest:And look, for me, I think shame is a tool of oppression, humiliation, berating are tools of hurt.

01:13:22Guest:They're not going to be tools of change and justice.

01:13:26Guest:I do not think shame is a social justice tool.

01:13:29Guest:And if you want to use it as a social justice tool, that's great.

01:13:32Guest:I'm not going to participate in that with you.

01:13:35Guest:Because shame doesn't just change the person who is the target of the shame.

01:13:41Guest:Shame changes people who use it against other people.

01:13:44Guest:So if you want me to, hey, this person did something really shitty, really bad, and let's shame the shit out of them.

01:13:52Guest:Don't include me.

01:13:54Guest:You want to hold that person accountable in a real way?

01:13:56Guest:I'm on board.

01:13:59Guest:But just FYI, that takes 10x the amount of time and work that shame does.

01:14:04Guest:You won't get the rush of feeling good by berating someone right away.

01:14:08Guest:And it's a long process.

01:14:09Guest:But I will not participate in using shame as a social justice tool.

01:14:12Guest:It's the justice tool of oppression.

01:14:15Marc:yeah i just won't do it it's weird how it is coalescing into groups it is totally coalescing yeah and and and that they're not acknowledging that they're just finding strength in the brazenness and and sort of uh controlling fascistic leanings you know and using all these tools to sort of annihilate vulnerability right yeah and i call it common enemy intimacy

01:14:38Guest:It's this real rush, this real rush of counterfeit intimacy.

01:14:44Guest:We don't have anything in common except we hate the same people.

01:14:47Marc:Right.

01:14:47Marc:And then when you get right down to it, it is about people one-on-one connecting or in small groups.

01:14:54Marc:And what did you say about that, about the biological need for people to be connected?

01:14:59Guest:Yeah, we're neurobiologically hardwired.

01:15:02Guest:And everything that we're doing, the way we're talking about shit right now with ideological bunkers and groups of people, goes against our humanity.

01:15:11Guest:Right.

01:15:11Guest:The way that we're... You know, the way that this current administration right now is dehumanizing people.

01:15:16Guest:These aren't refugees.

01:15:17Guest:They're animals.

01:15:18Guest:Like, this...

01:15:20Guest:Like you don't have to be a historian to know that the beginning of every freaking genocide in history starts with that rhetoric.

01:15:30Guest:Like what we're doing right now pushes like we are wired, hardwired to not rape, kill, maim, dehumanize each other.

01:15:41Guest:In order to do that, we have to turn off pieces of our biology and ourself that are going to be hard to reclaim.

01:15:48Marc:Right.

01:15:49Marc:And people feed the fire.

01:15:50Marc:They feed it.

01:15:51Marc:Yeah.

01:15:52Marc:And technology facilitates it.

01:15:54Guest:Oh, totally.

01:15:54Guest:And you can't blame technology because it's like fire.

01:15:56Guest:Like fire is great.

01:15:57Guest:Like you can keep yourself warm or you can burn down the barn.

01:15:59Marc:Right.

01:15:59Marc:But it's not the fire.

01:16:01Marc:Yeah.

01:16:02Marc:But the fire can definitely burn down the barn.

01:16:05Guest:Yeah, it's just how you use it.

01:16:07Guest:And it's burning down the barn right now.

01:16:09Marc:Yeah, because it's hard to control the fires.

01:16:12Guest:Yeah, and I'll tell you what's out of control right now more than anything.

01:16:14Guest:Fucking greed.

01:16:16Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:16:17Marc:And you're working with CEOs.

01:16:19Marc:Lots of them.

01:16:21Marc:Do they deal with that?

01:16:25Guest:I am pretty picky.

01:16:26Marc:I'm at the point in my career where I- So you're like, we're the mindful CEOs that are having a little trouble getting their workplace level.

01:16:34Guest:Yeah.

01:16:34Guest:I mean, yeah.

01:16:35Guest:And I think there are mindful CEOs.

01:16:36Guest:Sure.

01:16:37Guest:And I will tell you one thing.

01:16:38Guest:I think in some corners of corporate America, they're doing a better job holding people accountable for shitty behavior than political-

01:16:46Marc:Well, yeah, right.

01:16:47Marc:Well, that's what it's really all about.

01:16:48Guest:Yeah, it's true.

01:16:52Guest:I think when you give yourself permission to talk about people as groups, you give yourself permission to dehumanize people and make decisions that are not based on looking people in the eye.

01:17:05Marc:And I think it's scary.

01:17:07Marc:Yeah, and why look people in the eye when you can just text them or box them into a way of thinking or a group or something different than you.

01:17:16Marc:There's so much sadness.

01:17:19Guest:There's a lot of sadness, and there's a growing amount of the thing that scares me even more than sadness, despair.

01:17:26Marc:Yeah, yeah, because that leads to hopelessness, and that can lead to nihilism and anger.

01:17:32Guest:I heard Rob Bell define despair one day as the belief that tomorrow will be just like today.

01:17:38Guest:Yeah, and I was like.

01:17:40Guest:Well, where do you stand on hope?

01:17:43Guest:I'm a big fan.

01:17:44Yeah.

01:17:44Guest:I'm a fan of hope.

01:17:46Guest:You know, here's the thing.

01:17:47Guest:I thought before this research that hope was an emotion.

01:17:50Guest:Yeah.

01:17:50Guest:But it's not.

01:17:51Guest:It's actually a cognitive behavioral process.

01:17:54Guest:Sure.

01:17:54Guest:That hope is has three pieces, pathway, agency and belief.

01:17:59Guest:So hope is I can set a goal.

01:18:02Guest:If I can't get to it, I can plan B it or plan C or plan D it and believe in my ability.

01:18:07Guest:And we can teach it.

01:18:08Guest:So we need to be teaching hope in schools.

01:18:11Guest:We need to teach people agency, goal setting, real things that lead to hope.

01:18:16Guest:Hope is not like a gauzy sense of potential.

01:18:20Guest:It's a skill set.

01:18:21Marc:So you recommend hope, the hope skill set.

01:18:23Guest:I'm a high fan.

01:18:25Marc:And also, I guess I need to hear you say, like, you know, when you're dealing with what you're dealing with and you're putting into people's heads in a group situation and people are responding to it emotionally and it seems possible to them to enact what you're saying.

01:18:37Marc:Do you do you obviously for yourself?

01:18:39Marc:You did.

01:18:39Marc:But do you recommend look therapy?

01:18:42Marc:of one kind or another totally you know because like this stuff isn't just something you can go home and make a list to do every day no like you have to deal with your own whatever personal trauma or wound or or patterns have gotten you to this place where you're disabled to move forward with these things which are innately human and and good and proactive um you need to get it somehow put into a personal context so you can take those steps

01:19:10Guest:Yeah, that's why I talk really openly about being sober.

01:19:12Guest:It's why I talk openly about having a therapist.

01:19:15Guest:This is not stuff that we weren't meant to do it alone.

01:19:19Marc:Right, right.

01:19:20Marc:You just got to find the right one and not think it's stigmatized.

01:19:24Marc:Are you more of like, I assume that, you know, because like you said something similar to what I said, I used to do a joke about you get older and when you go to therapy, you know, you know why you're there.

01:19:35Marc:Like you walk in, you're like, I know there's a lot of things we're not going to be able to unfuck.

01:19:42Marc:Totally.

01:19:43Marc:But I got this one thing that we need to do.

01:19:47Marc:It's important to try to get to that place.

01:19:49Guest:Yeah, it is.

01:19:50Guest:And there's no, yeah, we need to let go of the stigma.

01:19:53Guest:I mean, basically the big challenge of adult life is disarmoring.

01:19:59Mm-hmm.

01:19:59Guest:The stuff that you had to put on to stay safe as a kid no longer serves.

01:20:04Guest:It keeps you from growing into your gifts.

01:20:07Guest:Not using your gifts is not benign.

01:20:09Guest:It metastasizes.

01:20:11Marc:And it's going to happen anyways.

01:20:12Marc:You're going to get old if you're lucky.

01:20:13Guest:Yeah.

01:20:15Guest:Best case scenario.

01:20:16Marc:You're going to be vulnerable whether you want to be or not.

01:20:17Guest:That's it.

01:20:18Guest:So you've got to learn how to lean into it.

01:20:20Guest:And I think some people can do it without therapy.

01:20:24Guest:I definitely could not.

01:20:25Guest:My armor was too heavy.

01:20:27Guest:It was too generational.

01:20:28Guest:I definitely could not.

01:20:29Marc:Well, good for you.

01:20:31Marc:Congratulations.

01:20:32Guest:Thanks.

01:20:32Marc:And I think you're doing great work and it's very moving and important and it was a real honor to talk to you.

01:20:37Guest:Thank you so much.

01:20:37Guest:It was so fun.

01:20:43Marc:That was Professor Brene Brown.

01:20:47Marc:What a great... I just... I think she's tremendous.

01:20:53Marc:I need to blast out some guitar.

01:20:56Marc:I need some searing sounds.

01:20:58Marc:Here we go.

01:20:59Marc:Here we go.

01:21:16Marc:Boomer lives!