Episode 1005 - Phoebe Robinson

Episode 1005 • Released March 28, 2019 • Speakers detected

00:00:00Marc:Lock the gates!

00:00:09Marc:All right, let's do this.

00:00:10Marc:How are you?

00:00:11Marc:What the fuckers?

00:00:12Marc:What the fuck buddies?

00:00:13Marc:What the fucksters?

00:00:15Marc:What the fuckadelics?

00:00:17Marc:What's happening?

00:00:17Marc:It's Mark Maron.

00:00:18Marc:This is my podcast, WTF.

00:00:21Marc:Welcome.

00:00:22Marc:How are you?

00:00:23Marc:Everything okay?

00:00:24Marc:You doing all right?

00:00:26Marc:I'm going to talk to Phoebe Robinson today.

00:00:28Marc:This is my primary social life.

00:00:31Marc:You're witnessing it.

00:00:32Marc:Also, I wanted to tell you about my buddy Tom Rhodes is a comic who I've had on this show a couple of times.

00:00:37Marc:We go way back.

00:00:38Marc:He was actually on episode 158 and then more recently on episode 911.

00:00:42Marc:He's done this epic comedy album.

00:00:48Marc:All right.

00:00:48Marc:I mean, it's like crazy.

00:00:49Marc:It's a culmination of him doing the international circuit for the past 20 years.

00:00:55Marc:It's called Tom Rhodes around the world.

00:00:57Marc:And it's three hours long, 40 tracks recorded in 24 different cities, starting in Paris and ending in Jerusalem.

00:01:03Marc:And during the arc of this thing, his marriage fell apart.

00:01:07Marc:So it's very personal.

00:01:08Marc:It's very global.

00:01:10Marc:It's very unique.

00:01:11Marc:And you should go get it.

00:01:13Marc:You can get it on iTunes and Amazon.

00:01:15Marc:And the vinyl version is coming out this summer.

00:01:19Marc:So that's Tom Rhodes around the world.

00:01:22Marc:This might be the most epic comedy record ever made.

00:01:27Marc:So Boulder, Colorado.

00:01:29Marc:Interesting thing happened.

00:01:30Marc:Nice lengthy show.

00:01:31Marc:Hour and a half, two hours.

00:01:33Marc:Got loose.

00:01:34Marc:Got rambly.

00:01:35Marc:Got riffy.

00:01:36Marc:And this hasn't happened in a long time.

00:01:40Marc:I can't say that these type of things don't happen.

00:01:43Marc:But I'm always sort of astounded when they do.

00:01:45Marc:Boulder is a great little city.

00:01:47Marc:And it was a great crowd.

00:01:48Marc:And I thank everybody for coming out to the Boulder Theater.

00:01:50Marc:I do enjoy going there.

00:01:52Marc:The drive was great, which I already told you about last show.

00:01:56Marc:But I swear to you, I was on stage maybe 10 minutes.

00:02:00Marc:Maybe.

00:02:01Maybe.

00:02:01Marc:Um, and I'm just doing my shit, trying to get a, you know, get a toehold or get a little traction with the crowd, getting it going.

00:02:11Marc:And this young woman looked completely composed, put together, maybe in her twenties, holding her phone, just wandered all the way down the aisle and right up to the lip of the stage and stood there looking at me.

00:02:25Marc:with you know just holding her phone just standing there looking at me and you know obviously the audience of 800 or however many were in there took notice and it was awkward and i stopped my show and i said hi what's up she goes nothing uh what basically that i'm paraphrasing and i'm like well is there something i can do she says no i just wanted to talk and i'm like well i'm you know i'm in the middle of a show

00:02:51Marc:Maybe not now is a good time.

00:02:53Marc:She's like, no, I think it's a good time.

00:02:55Marc:And she's like, can I just come up there?

00:02:58Marc:She went to get on the stage.

00:03:00Marc:She was looking at me as if we were the only two people in the room.

00:03:04Marc:And there was a whole crowd there.

00:03:06Marc:And I could feel them starting to do the thing that crowds do.

00:03:09Marc:Like, hey, come on.

00:03:10Marc:What the fuck?

00:03:10Marc:Get out.

00:03:11Marc:Go home.

00:03:12Marc:Go back to your seat.

00:03:13Marc:Wait.

00:03:14Marc:But I got this sense.

00:03:15Marc:I don't know what was up with her, but there was just this moment where like she's in trouble somehow because she's not cognizant of what's happening.

00:03:24Marc:And she didn't seem drunk.

00:03:25Marc:She wasn't stumbling.

00:03:25Marc:She wasn't swearing her speech.

00:03:27Marc:I know the drunk vibe.

00:03:29Marc:So my my initial gut reaction was, you know, she's off res, man.

00:03:34Marc:And, you know, there's something up and it might not be good.

00:03:37Marc:So I was diplomatic about it.

00:03:39Marc:I was like, I don't think this is a good time to talk.

00:03:41Marc:I have to do a show.

00:03:42Marc:She's like, well, I think it's a good time.

00:03:43Marc:And I'm like, you really have to maybe we'll talk later.

00:03:46Marc:Why don't we talk later?

00:03:47Marc:Let's talk later.

00:03:47Marc:And then security came down.

00:03:48Marc:I'm like, just be nice.

00:03:50Marc:You know, I said to them, I said, just, you know, go, go back, you know, to your seat or wherever you are.

00:03:55Marc:And then, you know, we'll deal with it later.

00:03:56Marc:And it was sort of like difficult to get her.

00:03:58Marc:away she didn't need to be dragged or anything but it was difficult to get it through her head so I didn't I thought maybe a manic break I don't know and I still don't really know but the fucked up thing about me is like I was considerate I was diplomatic and you know there was really part of me that was sort of like alright okay what do you need to talk about what is so like I had to fight that lack of boundary in myself in that moment whereas I think a lot of comics would just be like you know well just fuck off you know whatever maybe not I don't want to put dirty you know nasty

00:04:28Marc:emotions into the mouths of other comics.

00:04:31Marc:But it could have been handled differently.

00:04:33Marc:It could have been a little more abusive.

00:04:35Marc:But out of fear for her sanity and my own instinct, I just was like nice about it.

00:04:42Marc:But I do have to admit that there was part of me that's sort of like, all right, we can hang out now.

00:04:47Marc:Let's just get through whatever you need to get through.

00:04:49Marc:And I'll continue the show in a second.

00:04:51Marc:But that did not happen.

00:04:53Marc:And I guess she was fucked up.

00:04:55Marc:I mean, they got some pretty strong weed in Colorado.

00:04:59Marc:That's the funny thing about Colorado.

00:05:01Marc:It was interesting.

00:05:02Marc:I was talking to a friend of mine and I was mentioning that Colorado, it's recently not red and it's not that blue.

00:05:09Marc:And it's definitely a white state and in a lot of ways.

00:05:15Marc:And it's definitely dug in in a conservative way.

00:05:19Marc:I mean, there are I believe Focus on Family is headquartered in Colorado Springs and there's a Air Force Academy and there's definitely some serious conservative kind of mountain biking white people, which is look, I'm not judging.

00:05:35Marc:But the funny thing was, is that when I was sort of like, you know, talking about Colorado in a broad sense, a friend of mine was like, well, you know, they're pretty progressive.

00:05:43Marc:They they they got the legal weed policy.

00:05:45Marc:And I'm like, you know, that that may be progressive policy, but it does not necessarily mean that it's progressive people.

00:05:52Marc:Like, I guarantee you there's there's someone out there who says, man, I love weed, but I hate Jews.

00:05:59Marc:Yeah, I mean, you know, weed is weed crosses all boundaries.

00:06:04Marc:The policy is progressive and proactive and good in the weed legalization way.

00:06:10Marc:But let's not mistake free freeing the weed for making everybody a decent person.

00:06:17Marc:Right.

00:06:18Marc:Right.

00:06:19Marc:Here's my other concern.

00:06:22Marc:which I wanted to talk about for some reason, because I don't know if it gets enough lip service.

00:06:27Marc:There's a bit of video on the Washington Post dot com.

00:06:31Marc:And the title of it is GOP legislator prays to Jesus for forgiveness before states first Muslim woman swears in.

00:06:40Marc:So a woman, a legislator in Pennsylvania.

00:06:43Marc:Before a woman, the first Muslim woman in this state, I believe.

00:06:47Marc:Yeah, it says right there was sworn in, went to the mic in the proceeding in the state legislature and did a sort of rambling sort of prayer.

00:06:59Marc:about Israel, about Jesus, about the country's foundations in Jesus, about Jesus speaking through George Washington.

00:07:05Marc:It wasn't quite speaking in tongues, but it was clearly Jesus, Jesus, Jesus.

00:07:12Marc:Don't forget Jesus because Jesus is important.

00:07:15Marc:And I need you to know this before this Muslim woman comes up.

00:07:19Marc:There's a lot of evangelical Christians in legislatures that have come through the Republican movement.

00:07:27Marc:There's a lot of right-wing Christian activist judges in the judiciary, and they've been kind of pushing along for a long time.

00:07:38Marc:You know, there are the regular issues of abortion, which is a hot-button issue in Christian circles and one that they have used for traction over the years.

00:07:51Marc:But I think...

00:07:54Marc:What is sort of unspoken and what is kind of creepy to me, and I guess this is commentary.

00:08:00Marc:I don't know if it's essentially political commentary in the general ways that our president, he honestly doesn't give a fuck about policy or about anything.

00:08:09Marc:He likes being given information that he can twist and use to start shit.

00:08:15Marc:He likes starting shit and he likes the people that like him and their shit starters.

00:08:21Marc:and that's why they like them they like you push button pushers so he's not really i don't think uh on top of or uh he's not abreast of the of the policies that he's being handed but he knows that they'll start some okay so you know where i stand but

00:08:43Marc:The thing that doesn't get talked about much is how many Christians are in policymaking positions and evangelicals.

00:08:50Marc:I don't want to be condescending and I don't want to diminish anyone's religion.

00:08:55Marc:I don't want to mock the myths that define anyone.

00:08:57Marc:But there is a strain of Christianity that has a very specific agenda.

00:09:03Marc:And the rub here, which I didn't realize until recently, sadly, is that in order for Jesus to come back,

00:09:09Marc:The world has to end, which means that means there's a lot of people that want the world to end because they want Jesus to come back more than anything.

00:09:18Marc:This is just logic.

00:09:19Marc:So my question has always been, is there a chance that that policy is being crafted to accelerate the prophecy of revelation?

00:09:28Marc:So this would be prophecy fulfillment policy that's being undertaken by the evangelical wing of this administration headed off by Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo.

00:09:39Marc:And and you can see it in a lot of different ways.

00:09:42Marc:And the reason why it's tricky and horrifying, you know, environmentally that if they're deregulating, you know, at just sort of breakneck speed, not only for capitalistic intent, but also for Armageddon intent, that there is this strange.

00:10:01Marc:marriage you know demonic marriage and uh dovetailing of you know late stage capitalism and evangelical christian eschatology prophecy and i i guess the capitalists are hedging their bets or they don't give a fuck but uh but they're on board so this weird unification of like radical

00:10:24Marc:evangelical end time prophecy baiters and just sort of like let's make the world free for any kind of business no matter what it fucking does to the environment and then you know we'll fix it when the time comes maybe don't worry about that now

00:10:39Marc:That's sort of nihilistic.

00:10:42Marc:And I imagine at the core of a lot of people that may not be religious who are, you know, fuck you.

00:10:47Marc:Trump's the best.

00:10:48Marc:You know, fuck regulation.

00:10:49Marc:Fuck unions.

00:10:50Marc:Fuck the environment.

00:10:51Marc:Fuck the new Green Deal.

00:10:53Marc:That's the third arm of this momentum is that you have, you know, untethered.

00:10:59Marc:deregulated capitalists and you have just complete fucking nihilists who don't give a fuck and just want to see it all burn for no reason other than that and then you have a fairly organized and driven contingent of of christians who are like yeah we'd like it to end for very specific reasons because we've done all we can here and i'm one of the good guys and i'm ready for heaven fuck this noise

00:11:26Marc:So that was sort of it.

00:11:27Marc:And I think that's a way to sort of frame the sort of obsession with the right wing Zionism in Israel is that, you know, Pompeo.

00:11:37Marc:Yeah, he's he's he's on Team Jesus.

00:11:40Marc:And, you know, the reason in in that framework that Israel is so important is that they've got to get that landing strip cleared.

00:11:47Marc:They got it.

00:11:48Marc:You know, there's the temple mount.

00:11:50Marc:There's the dome of the rock is built on it.

00:11:52Marc:The temple must be rebuilt in order for Jesus to come back.

00:11:55Marc:I believe this is this is the way it goes.

00:11:57Marc:I don't have it sitting in front of me.

00:11:59Marc:But either way, Israel is important to the evangelical right because it's got to be stable and good for the landing.

00:12:07Marc:The problem is, is obviously most rational people are upset about the nihilists, frightened for the environment when it comes to the capitalist and completely terrified because of the religious fanatics.

00:12:19Marc:I just wanted to pay a little lip service to the religious fanatics, to the prophecy fulfillment policy and the evangelical wing of the Trump administration.

00:12:29Marc:Just saying hello.

00:12:31Marc:Put that in your head.

00:12:32Marc:Roll it around.

00:12:33Marc:It's all connected.

00:12:35Marc:OK, sweet.

00:12:38Marc:So listen, Phoebe Robinson is she's got a podcast called So Many White Guys.

00:12:45Marc:That's available wherever you can get podcasts in her books.

00:12:48Marc:You can't touch my hair and other things I still have to explain.

00:12:52Marc:And.

00:12:52Marc:Everything's Trash, But It's Okay is the other book.

00:12:55Marc:And they're available wherever you get books.

00:12:56Marc:And of course, you know her from the two seasons of Two Dope Queens on HBO.

00:13:00Marc:They're available wherever you get HBO.

00:13:02Marc:And I imagine you can still find that podcast around.

00:13:05Marc:But I love her.

00:13:06Marc:She's great.

00:13:07Marc:But it's interesting in this conversation.

00:13:10Marc:We kind of breach the sort of black and white thing a bit.

00:13:14Marc:And I learned a couple of things.

00:13:15Marc:Not too heavy.

00:13:16Marc:I'm not sure we solved any big problems.

00:13:18Marc:But it was certainly fun talking to her.

00:13:21Marc:So this is me talking to

00:13:22Marc:Phoebe Robinson.

00:13:26Marc:So it's nice to see you.

00:13:31Marc:Nice to see you too.

00:13:33Marc:Let's get into the collagen issue.

00:13:35Marc:Well, I mean, where are you at with your regimen?

00:13:39Guest:So Vanessa Bayer turned me on to this because we did.

00:13:42Guest:I was just talking about her.

00:13:44Guest:She's amazing.

00:13:44Guest:I love her to pieces.

00:13:45Guest:And we shot this Netflix movie, Ibiza, in 2017.

00:13:51Guest:And every morning I just see her putting this powder in her oatmeal.

00:13:55Guest:I'm like, what is that?

00:13:55Guest:She's like, oh, it's my collagen.

00:13:57Guest:It's supposed to help with your skin.

00:13:58Guest:And I was like, should I be doing that?

00:14:00Guest:Because I was like, well, I'm black.

00:14:01Guest:I feel like my skin's always going to be fine.

00:14:03Guest:But she's like, you need collagen.

00:14:05Guest:Yeah.

00:14:05Guest:And I was like, do black people know we need collagen?

00:14:07Guest:So now I do it every morning.

00:14:09Guest:I have a green juice.

00:14:10Guest:First thing I have, dump a bunch of collagen in.

00:14:12Marc:I don't know if it's working.

00:14:13Marc:Well, what is the response from black people in general with the collagen?

00:14:16Guest:Well, I can't tell my parents.

00:14:18Guest:I'm from the Midwest.

00:14:18Guest:They're going to be like, who the fuck are you?

00:14:20Guest:I knew you wore fucking turtleneck dickies and now you're walking around with collagen powder.

00:14:26Guest:It is...

00:14:26Guest:I've been taking collagen for months and I don't know, does my skin look good?

00:14:29Guest:Your skin looks good.

00:14:30Marc:It does?

00:14:30Guest:Yeah.

00:14:31Marc:Okay.

00:14:32Guest:Yeah.

00:14:32Marc:But I put lotion on too.

00:14:34Marc:Yeah.

00:14:35Marc:I'm that kind of man.

00:14:35Marc:Yeah.

00:14:36Marc:Can I ask you how old you are?

00:14:38Marc:Absolutely not.

00:14:40Marc:How rude.

00:14:42Marc:55.

00:14:43Marc:You look great.

00:14:44Marc:55.

00:14:44Guest:Yeah.

00:14:45Marc:Yeah.

00:14:46Guest:If you didn't look great, I would just breeze right past that comment.

00:14:50Guest:How old are you?

00:14:50Guest:I'm turning 35 in September.

00:14:51Guest:You're like a young person.

00:14:53Guest:I know.

00:14:53Guest:I'm a baby.

00:14:54Marc:That's what I started to realize when I was reading through your books.

00:14:57Marc:I was going through stuff.

00:14:57Marc:I'm like, I am out of the loop.

00:14:59Guest:I'm like, do you even like my stuff?

00:15:02Marc:Yeah, I do.

00:15:03Marc:I was getting laughs.

00:15:04Marc:Oh, good.

00:15:04Marc:But I'm actually, I don't know.

00:15:05Marc:I think I'm an old man in the sense that I'm like, what is this?

00:15:10Marc:Who is this?

00:15:10Marc:Who are these fucking people?

00:15:13Marc:What is this?

00:15:14Marc:Oh.

00:15:14Marc:There's a lot of interesting language being used.

00:15:18Marc:I didn't want to be that guy, but I get the thrust of it.

00:15:22Marc:No, I think you're very funny.

00:15:23Guest:Oh, thank you so much.

00:15:25Guest:I appreciate that, man.

00:15:26Marc:I was on your show, but you weren't there.

00:15:28Marc:No, I was- That was kind of a bummer.

00:15:30Guest:I was really bummed because I've been a huge fan of yours for a long time and I couldn't be there, I think, because I was shooting something.

00:15:38Marc:Right.

00:15:38Guest:Yeah.

00:15:38Guest:And I was just like, this sucks.

00:15:40Marc:Yeah.

00:15:41Guest:I was like, oh, I'm never going to meet him now.

00:15:43Marc:No.

00:15:44Marc:It's funny because I got the first book a while back.

00:15:47Marc:The essay on feminism is great.

00:15:48Marc:Thank you so much.

00:15:49Marc:And it feels like that was the one where you're like, I got to do this right.

00:15:52Guest:Yeah.

00:15:53Guest:That was the last one I wrote and I kept putting it off and I kept missing deadlines and I was like...

00:15:58Guest:I pitched this essay to my editor and the publisher, and they were like, we're so excited for this.

00:16:03Guest:And now I'm like, oh, fuck, I can't cut it.

00:16:05Guest:Because in the past, if I was like, oh, I can't figure it out, I'm just going to cut it from the book.

00:16:08Guest:And I'm like, all right.

00:16:09Guest:But they kept being like, we can't wait to see the feminism essay.

00:16:12Guest:And I was like, oh.

00:16:14Guest:Yeah.

00:16:14Guest:So I spent maybe three days and I just was writing, writing, and I got, I just vomited on the page and it made sense.

00:16:23Guest:And people, a lot of people really like that.

00:16:25Guest:I say a lot, which I appreciate.

00:16:26Guest:Yeah.

00:16:27Marc:Yeah.

00:16:27Marc:Cause I think, you know, it's one of those things where you got to wrangle in all this stuff.

00:16:30Marc:You got to take a stand and it's a stand, you know, against something that you're within.

00:16:35Marc:Yeah.

00:16:35Marc:And, and, and you gotta, you have to be, your argument has to be solid.

00:16:40Guest:Yeah.

00:16:41Yeah.

00:16:41Marc:Or else, you know, they're going to call you out.

00:16:43Marc:Exactly.

00:16:44Guest:Yeah.

00:16:44Marc:And so all the response has been good.

00:16:46Guest:The response has been good.

00:16:47Guest:I mean, I think, you know, feminism is anyone who hasn't read the book.

00:16:50Guest:Basically, I just call out white feminism as being just as problematic in its own way as like the patriarchy or whatever.

00:16:57Guest:And, you know.

00:16:59Marc:The patriarchy or whatever.

00:17:01Marc:That should be the next book.

00:17:06Marc:Whatever that, you know, that thing.

00:17:08Guest:That whole oppressive thing.

00:17:10Guest:And I think what's been interesting now is like, you know, two queens is coming out.

00:17:16Guest:And so then I get new people who like didn't know me before that or do like the viewer or whatever.

00:17:21Guest:Yeah.

00:17:22Guest:And sometimes when I call out white feminists, there will be like some like really angry white women in my comments.

00:17:27Guest:They'll be like, I'm unfollowing your work.

00:17:29Guest:And I'm like, see if a shit.

00:17:32Guest:I'm like, what do you what do you think that's going to accomplish?

00:17:34Marc:But that's but that's also like point.

00:17:36Marc:That's the point.

00:17:37Marc:Yeah, you're proving the point.

00:17:39Guest:Yeah, you think, oh, I'm not going to talk now because I don't want to lose a white fan.

00:17:43Guest:It's so stupid.

00:17:44Guest:It's so dumb.

00:17:45Guest:And so people mostly get it.

00:17:48Guest:And I think it's just based in fact.

00:17:52Guest:You can't argue your way out of it is how I feel about it.

00:17:56Marc:We can start lighter.

00:17:58Guest:Yeah.

00:17:59Marc:But no, but I think that's always been a problem with people who even call themselves progressives is that, you know, when I did talk radio on the left, it was like it just got to the point where it's like these people are just going to eat themselves.

00:18:12Guest:Yeah.

00:18:12Marc:And there's nothing there's nothing anyone can do about it because the personalities are so strong.

00:18:17Marc:There are boutique issues.

00:18:19Guest:Mm hmm.

00:18:19Marc:that this is what defines our progressiveness.

00:18:22Guest:Yeah.

00:18:23Marc:And then it's just sort of like, it's a clusterfuck, and you're just gonna watch them tear their own selves up, and then not come together to do when they need to.

00:18:32Guest:Yeah, that's why we have 85 people running on the Democratic side.

00:18:36Guest:I'm like, what?

00:18:37Guest:I know.

00:18:37Guest:I'm like, Bernie again?

00:18:39Marc:Are you running?

00:18:40Marc:Let me run.

00:18:41Marc:Why not?

00:18:42Marc:Just do it.

00:18:42Marc:It's insane.

00:18:43Marc:You can do it.

00:18:45Marc:Yeah.

00:18:45Marc:Be a comic who runs for president.

00:18:47Yeah.

00:18:47Marc:There's always been one.

00:18:48Marc:Pat Paulson was this old dude who used to run every year for years.

00:18:52Marc:Really?

00:18:52Marc:Yeah, comedian.

00:18:53Marc:He'd just run for president.

00:18:54Guest:Oh my God.

00:18:54Marc:What does it take to run for president?

00:18:56Guest:I have no idea.

00:18:57Marc:You just fill out a form?

00:18:58Guest:Yeah, and I think you just get enough people to be like, yeah, I like you, and you can run, and you're like, what?

00:19:02Marc:Oh yeah, sign this.

00:19:03Marc:Yeah.

00:19:04Marc:Do it on the HBO show.

00:19:05Marc:We post the signatory thing and then you put it out there and see how many you get and then you just, you don't have to full in.

00:19:12Marc:Just kind of half ass it.

00:19:14Marc:Have a platform.

00:19:16Marc:That'd be funny.

00:19:17Marc:So how did I miss your standup career entirely?

00:19:23Marc:I mean, was I not in New York?

00:19:25Marc:Were you of a different generation?

00:19:27Guest:Yeah.

00:19:28Marc:Where did you grow up?

00:19:29Marc:What happened?

00:19:30Guest:I'm from Cleveland, Ohio.

00:19:31Marc:In Cleveland?

00:19:32Guest:The suburbs of Cleveland.

00:19:33Marc:I'm always, my initial reaction to Ohio was always like, and I don't even know why.

00:19:39Marc:I think it's because of the Republican slash opioid slash conservative freak show that sort of undermines, well, it certainly did in 2004, I think.

00:19:51Marc:Wasn't that the year?

00:19:52Marc:Yeah.

00:19:52Marc:But every time I'm there, like anywhere else I go, I'm like, no, there's good people everywhere.

00:19:58Marc:And there's that one street with the three restaurants on it that's very good by the club I work at.

00:20:06Guest:I really do like Cleveland.

00:20:08Guest:I do think politically, Ohio is not on the whole what I align with.

00:20:16Guest:But yeah, I grew up in the suburbs.

00:20:17Guest:My parents have been married.

00:20:19Guest:How does my brother...

00:20:20Guest:Because I got married when my mom was pregnant with him.

00:20:22Guest:30.

00:20:24Guest:And I just reveal that.

00:20:25Guest:But anyway, who cares?

00:20:26Guest:39 years.

00:20:27Marc:Was that an accident?

00:20:27Guest:No, no, no, no.

00:20:29Guest:It was just like, all right, well.

00:20:30Marc:Happened.

00:20:30Marc:Guess what?

00:20:31Marc:Step up.

00:20:31Guest:Yeah.

00:20:33Marc:You're what?

00:20:34Marc:All right.

00:20:35Marc:Yeah.

00:20:35Marc:That's how your dad proposed?

00:20:36Yeah.

00:20:39Marc:God damn it.

00:20:39Marc:Okay.

00:20:40Guest:So they've been together 39 years.

00:20:42Guest:I have an older brother.

00:20:43Guest:He married his college sweetheart.

00:20:45Marc:How's that going?

00:20:47Guest:Good.

00:20:47Guest:I have two kids.

00:20:48Guest:It's wild.

00:20:49Guest:I don't want to have kids.

00:20:50Guest:Yeah.

00:20:51Guest:That's a big thing.

00:20:51Guest:And my boyfriend and I have talked about that.

00:20:53Guest:We both just don't want to have kids.

00:20:55Marc:You have a boyfriend for a long time now?

00:20:57Guest:It'll be two years in July.

00:20:58Guest:He's a tour manager for rock bands.

00:21:00Marc:Yeah?

00:21:00Marc:Yeah.

00:21:00Marc:What bands?

00:21:01Guest:Right now he's with the Lumineers.

00:21:03Guest:Last year he was with Nico Case.

00:21:06Guest:Oh my God, the Lumineers, they're good.

00:21:08Guest:Have you seen them live?

00:21:10Marc:No, look, it's just funny to be with your Bono obsession that you're now dating this dude that seems to be just on a list of two representing some of the whitest people working in music.

00:21:23Marc:I saw them open for Bono.

00:21:25Guest:Yeah, that's how I met my boyfriend.

00:21:27Marc:Oh, yeah.

00:21:27Guest:Yeah, it was at a U2 concert, and the luminaries are open for him, and my boyfriend's from, he's from Bournemouth, which is like two hours south of London.

00:21:36Marc:English guy?

00:21:37Guest:Yeah, tats, piercings.

00:21:39Guest:Uh-huh.

00:21:39Guest:Yeah, he's cool.

00:21:40Marc:Oh, yeah?

00:21:41Guest:Yeah.

00:21:41Marc:This is the guy?

00:21:42Guest:Yeah, this, oh, he's the one, for sure.

00:21:44Marc:Really?

00:21:45Guest:What was, he said really, like, why?

00:21:49Guest:Why?

00:21:50Marc:Because I, you know, I have been through many relationships and two marriages.

00:21:54Marc:I, too, do not have children.

00:21:56Marc:Yeah.

00:21:56Marc:Just because it was never, I never really thought about it.

00:21:59Marc:Yeah.

00:21:59Marc:I'm not the person for them.

00:22:01Marc:Yeah.

00:22:01Marc:I think it's a fine thing.

00:22:03Marc:Yeah.

00:22:04Marc:Have you thought it, what's your thinking on it?

00:22:07Guest:I just don't, I see my friends, I see when my parents went through it, I'm like, I don't have the capacity to raise someone, like the day to day.

00:22:20Marc:Well here at Devil's Advocate, do you ever get this?

00:22:22Marc:Y'all know when you have one, you'll show up.

00:22:24Marc:I know.

00:22:25Guest:I won't.

00:22:26Guest:I will resent.

00:22:27Guest:I'll be pissed.

00:22:29Guest:I'll be pissed.

00:22:31Marc:But your parents were supportive and loving.

00:22:33Marc:Yeah, they were good.

00:22:35Marc:Yeah.

00:22:35Marc:See, for me, I have anxiety about kids I don't have.

00:22:39Marc:Like the ones that I could have had who are now in rehab and in their 20s.

00:22:44Marc:I'm worried about them.

00:22:46Guest:It's good that you didn't have kids.

00:22:48Guest:I think more people should not have kids.

00:22:50Marc:Yeah, we have enough.

00:22:50Guest:Yeah.

00:22:51Guest:And honestly, like they're...

00:22:53Guest:I think a lot of times people are like, oh, you know, they don't tell you the whole thing.

00:22:58Guest:And I've had some friends be like, I love being a parent.

00:23:01Guest:Yeah.

00:23:02Guest:But it is really fucking hard.

00:23:04Guest:And like, honestly, like, I don't encourage people to have kids.

00:23:08Marc:Right.

00:23:09Guest:But there are some people, they just want you to be a part of the tribe.

00:23:11Guest:And I'm like, no, I'm good.

00:23:13Marc:It's weird.

00:23:13Marc:And I don't want to like, I better not.

00:23:16Marc:There's this thing that happens to people, they have kids, and then they just sort of go into this weird, almost zombie-like state for at least a decade.

00:23:27Marc:And then they come out of it and they're like, what'd I miss?

00:23:32Marc:Yeah, it's true.

00:23:33Marc:And it's weird.

00:23:34Guest:Yeah.

00:23:34Marc:And they're going to hate.

00:23:35Marc:I imagine I'll get some emails.

00:23:37Marc:But I mean, look, I like kids for a few days.

00:23:40Guest:Yeah, they're fun.

00:23:41Guest:And I like hanging out with my niece and nephew.

00:23:44Marc:Yeah.

00:23:44Guest:But I like sleep.

00:23:46Guest:I like being able to have 20 different jobs.

00:23:50Guest:I like that my boyfriend and I can travel to see each other.

00:23:53Guest:I just like.

00:23:54Marc:Yeah.

00:23:55Guest:I like the freedom.

00:23:55Marc:Yeah.

00:23:56Marc:Yeah.

00:23:56Marc:Yeah, and also it's like not having a horse in the race at this particular juncture in global history is not a horrible thing.

00:24:05Marc:It's not like you can have a kid who's two now and say, like, it's going to be great when you get older.

00:24:09Marc:You're going to be able to do whatever you want in the camp.

00:24:12Guest:Yeah.

00:24:14Marc:I don't know.

00:24:16Marc:So when did you, so your brother, he's living a normal life.

00:24:19Marc:You have nieces and nephews.

00:24:20Marc:That's a nice relationship to have.

00:24:22Marc:You can be Aunt Phoebe and come over with presents and then leave.

00:24:26Guest:Exactly.

00:24:27Guest:It's perfect.

00:24:27Marc:What's he do?

00:24:28Guest:He is, so he works at a non-profit city year and then he just got into politics and he ran for state rep in his district and he won.

00:24:36Guest:Really?

00:24:36Marc:Yeah.

00:24:37Guest:He's a state rep?

00:24:38Guest:Yeah, district six and he flipped it.

00:24:39Guest:It was read for 60 years.

00:24:41Marc:That's exciting.

00:24:42Guest:Yeah, it's the first time.

00:24:43Marc:Wow.

00:24:44Marc:When you were growing up, were your parents political, or what kind of house did you grow up?

00:24:48Guest:What'd they do?

00:24:50Guest:So my mom is an accountant, and my dad now, he does real estate.

00:24:54Guest:But they weren't super political, but my brother, he would just sit down and watch C-SPAN.

00:25:01Marc:When it was the only thing, there were two things on cable?

00:25:04Marc:How old's your brother?

00:25:04Guest:He is 39.

00:25:05Guest:Like, I would watch, you know, Ally McBeal or In Living Color, and he'd be fucking watching C-SPAN, like, for pleasure, for hours.

00:25:14Marc:Even when no one was talking?

00:25:15Marc:Just, like, people shuffling papers and walking across the floor.

00:25:18Guest:I cannot tell you the amount of times I saw that I'm like, what is, this is, like, a shitty Truman show?

00:25:23Guest:Like, what are we watching?

00:25:25Guest:He's like, it's so good.

00:25:25Guest:And I'm like, all right, sure.

00:25:29Marc:They're voting on Bill 309.

00:25:31Marc:Right, right.

00:25:33Marc:It's a water-related bill.

00:25:37Guest:Wow.

00:25:37Guest:I never got it, but he just is a huge political junkie, always has been.

00:25:41Marc:I respect people like that who really get off on the nuances of how the system works.

00:25:46Marc:Yeah.

00:25:47Marc:Did you read that thing about how most people don't know who Mike Pence is?

00:25:50Marc:Really?

00:25:51Marc:Yeah.

00:25:53Marc:A large amount of people.

00:25:55Marc:That even in the climate we live in, there's still plenty of people sort of like, no, get involved.

00:25:59Marc:Yeah.

00:26:00Marc:They go to work.

00:26:01Marc:It'll work out.

00:26:03Marc:I mean, you talk about that, too, in that essay, which is the one I really studied.

00:26:08Guest:You're like, I read one essay.

00:26:10Marc:I'm fucking busy.

00:26:11Marc:I browsed.

00:26:12Marc:I read one essay.

00:26:14Marc:It was like black people, black people, feminism.

00:26:18Marc:Okay, this is a little broader.

00:26:19Marc:Maybe this will encompass all of the things that she talks about.

00:26:23Guest:Yeah.

00:26:24Guest:Where do you stand on race, man?

00:26:26Guest:Where do I stand?

00:26:28Guest:I'm pro race.

00:26:29Guest:No, but does it make you antsy to talk about it or not really?

00:26:34Marc:Well, you know, when I do talk about it, the weird thing is, is like in terms of like the one I underline something in the book, actually, two things.

00:26:42Guest:Oh, wow.

00:26:43Marc:Look at that.

00:26:43Marc:Silence and putting your head down is flat out unacceptable and only makes more visible the fact that you're trying to remain invisible in the face of atrocities.

00:26:51Guest:Yeah.

00:26:52Guest:Yeah.

00:26:53Guest:I fucking wrote that.

00:26:54Marc:You did.

00:26:54Marc:Yeah.

00:26:55Marc:And it's an issue for a lot of people I talk to, like, you know, people who consider themselves progressive people, good people.

00:27:01Marc:They're just sort of like, you know, it's like I'm going to ride this one out.

00:27:04Marc:Yeah.

00:27:05Marc:I'll be like, Trump sucks.

00:27:07Marc:And, you know, this is bad.

00:27:08Marc:But, you know.

00:27:09Marc:Where do I stand in it?

00:27:10Marc:I try to talk about it with people who want to talk about it.

00:27:12Marc:I don't walk up to people and go like, are we good?

00:27:15Marc:Is everything all right?

00:27:16Marc:You know, like I've engaged people in like I talked to DL Hughley about it.

00:27:22Marc:But this whole idea of like black friends and knowing the black community and stuff.

00:27:27Marc:I have two friends, period.

00:27:30Marc:You know what I mean?

00:27:31Marc:Like, so like I'm not out in the world.

00:27:34Marc:I work with people of all races and I'm like, hey, what's going on?

00:27:38Marc:But it's not in my day to day brain.

00:27:41Marc:But am I guilty of being nervous about saying something like you said?

00:27:45Marc:Am I nervous about saying something?

00:27:47Marc:Well, it's very easy to not know how to talk.

00:27:50Marc:I don't think I'm going to say something racist because I know I'm not racist.

00:27:55Marc:But there is a point where it's sort of like the self-consciousness is going to... Just your tone is going to be like, can I say that?

00:28:03Marc:Can I say, are we good?

00:28:04Marc:That kind of shit does happen in my brain.

00:28:08Marc:But it's not a day-to-day thing.

00:28:11Marc:But even now talking about...

00:28:15Marc:Like I was trying to do a joke, for instance, just from the act, because I'm not out there in the streets.

00:28:26Guest:You're not out there in the streets.

00:28:28Marc:Yeah, I'm not going out like, I'm just walking around trying to be inclusive.

00:28:34Marc:But I was trying to do a joke about, is it wrong for me to use the black thumbs up emoji?

00:28:41Guest:I will say this.

00:28:46Guest:I appreciate when my white friends do that to me.

00:28:49Marc:To you.

00:28:50Marc:Yeah.

00:28:50Marc:But for me to do it, is it innately racially insensitive for me to do it as like me doing it just to anybody?

00:28:57Marc:If you like did it to just to a friend, like just to do the thumbs up.

00:29:01Marc:But I just chose to I had many color options.

00:29:04Guest:And then that's kind of not I think I'm OK with that.

00:29:08Marc:Really?

00:29:09Guest:Yeah.

00:29:10Marc:I mean, because that's the kind of thing where I put it out there.

00:29:12Marc:There's a lot of people like, I don't know.

00:29:14Marc:I don't know where this is going.

00:29:15Guest:I'm kind of like... It's an option.

00:29:17Guest:Yeah.

00:29:17Guest:I like that you chose that option instead of being like white's a default.

00:29:20Guest:That's the only one I'm gonna... I like that you're like, I'm gonna use a black thumbs up.

00:29:23Marc:I'll use the Latino one and the Asian one too.

00:29:27Marc:Yeah.

00:29:28Marc:I think a bigger question is the yellow and the Asian one is questionable.

00:29:32Guest:The yellow one, I'm like, what is this, guys?

00:29:36Guest:What's happening?

00:29:37Guest:That one is weird.

00:29:38Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:38Guest:I like that you're doing that.

00:29:39Marc:Sometimes I use all of them just to bring everybody in.

00:29:43Marc:There you go.

00:29:43Marc:I'm very excited and the world is excited with me.

00:29:47Marc:So I don't know.

00:29:47Marc:Am I avoiding the question?

00:29:49Guest:I don't think you're avoiding the question.

00:29:51Guest:I think you're...

00:29:53Guest:you answered it as a white person, which is, I can tell you were nervous.

00:30:01Guest:I can tell you were like, ah, but you got through it.

00:30:04Marc:I kind of knew.

00:30:04Marc:Yeah.

00:30:05Guest:I think, I, I think, you know, you're, you're trying to do, do what's right.

00:30:11Right.

00:30:11Marc:If I don't think about it, I'm fine.

00:30:13Marc:But I do, even in looking through your book and just out of recently really thinking about the idea of white male privilege, white privilege, the truth is I'm trying to work on stuff about being woke and acknowledging that I am a 55-year-old white dude.

00:30:31Marc:So I needed to be woke and I continually need to be woke.

00:30:34Marc:And it's a process.

00:30:36Marc:It's not second nature.

00:30:38Marc:It's because like it's not so much that our thinking was bad, but it was off.

00:30:42Guest:Yeah.

00:30:43Marc:You know what I mean?

00:30:43Marc:It was not the element that needed to be woke in terms of acknowledging white privilege was not it just wasn't engaged.

00:30:52Marc:I was just moving through the life, assuming that everything was OK.

00:30:55Guest:Right.

00:30:56Guest:And that, oh, this is just everyone has this sort of starting point.

00:31:00Guest:And now you realize that's like not true.

00:31:02Marc:Well, I knew that it was always difficult for people of color.

00:31:06Marc:I was not a complete idiot.

00:31:07Marc:Like, they're fine.

00:31:09Marc:They just don't like living in this neighborhood.

00:31:14Marc:You know, I wasn't a complete idiot.

00:31:16Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:31:17Marc:And I also knew about institutional racism, but I just don't think I really...

00:31:21Marc:thought of myself as somebody who benefited in a way at someone else's expense or unfairly.

00:31:32Marc:I just made assumptions.

00:31:33Marc:I'm a middle-class Jewish guy.

00:31:34Marc:I went to college.

00:31:35Marc:I wasted that time.

00:31:36Marc:There's a lot of people like that.

00:31:38Marc:There seem to be other people working harder than me.

00:31:40Marc:There were people of color around, but I never thought that I was somehow guilty of something.

00:31:48Guest:I don't think it's that you're guilty of it.

00:31:50Guest:I want to remove that.

00:31:51Guest:It's not that you're guilty of something.

00:31:53Guest:This has turned into a fucking college discussion.

00:31:56Guest:That's all right.

00:31:56Guest:I need to learn.

00:31:58Guest:But I think it's more that in the day-to-day, you have certain advantages that make your life easier.

00:32:07Guest:I fly business class.

00:32:11Guest:I just do.

00:32:11Guest:Almost every time I'm at the airport, I get pulled out of line because they think I don't belong there.

00:32:17Marc:Really?

00:32:18Guest:Yes.

00:32:19Marc:But how does that unfold?

00:32:21Guest:I will, when I went to, I went to, I was flying in Dublin, and I go in the, you know, TSA business line or whatever, first, whatever, and one guy pulls me, he's like, excuse me, what are you doing here?

00:32:32Guest:And I was like, business class, I'm like showing him my phone, he's like, okay.

00:32:37Guest:I walk, and then another guy,

00:32:40Guest:pulls me out of line he was like you don't belong in this line and the other girl was like oh no no no she's business class and I'm like yeah I fucking and said I was like this happens all the time yeah I get pulled out of line um yeah and it's just daily sort of like little things where people just remind you that you don't belong

00:32:58Marc:I don't believe, and I don't know if you thought about it, but I don't think that everybody is innately capable of empathy.

00:33:05Marc:I think that most people are self-centered, self-involved, and not necessarily myopic, but in their own trip.

00:33:14Marc:Right.

00:33:14Marc:They're in their own world.

00:33:16Marc:So certainly with I'm trying to talk about this a bit, too, on stage, certainly with gender, with men and women, it's literally impossible for a man to be truly empathetic with a woman.

00:33:27Marc:He has to it has to come from respect and listening.

00:33:30Marc:You can't really walk in.

00:33:31Marc:You can't.

00:33:32Marc:Right.

00:33:32Marc:Yeah.

00:33:33Marc:Yeah.

00:33:33Marc:And I think it's the same, you know, with white and black people in what you're talking about.

00:33:40Marc:So there is this other thing that you have to engage, which is understanding in what the struggle is in order to be empathetic.

00:33:48Guest:Yeah.

00:33:49Marc:Yeah.

00:33:50Guest:And then also understanding, like this was, because I started doing standup 11 years ago.

00:33:56Guest:I started in New York and I always call myself a grinder.

00:34:00Guest:Like I was always just, you know, I would go to shows, I would go home, I would write, like I was just.

00:34:04Marc:Let's talk about that and come back around to it.

00:34:07Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:34:08Marc:So you grow up and you moved to New York for.

00:34:11Guest:17, I went to Pratt Institute.

00:34:12Marc:At 17?

00:34:13Marc:That seems young.

00:34:14Guest:Well, just the way that my birthday fell.

00:34:17Guest:Oh.

00:34:17Guest:Yeah, and I wanted to study writing.

00:34:19Guest:I used to watch film and TV all the time.

00:34:21Guest:I was a slacker in high school.

00:34:23Marc:I can tell.

00:34:23Marc:I read the books.

00:34:24Marc:I was like, you watched that?

00:34:25Marc:She watched that?

00:34:28Marc:Like, your references, I'm like, they're so solid, and I know they're funny, and I'm like, I gotta go re-watch that movie.

00:34:34Guest:I know.

00:34:36Guest:I was lame.

00:34:37Guest:Like, that's all I did was just, like, watch and re-watch stuff.

00:34:40Marc:Was it movies you wanted to write?

00:34:42Guest:Yeah, I thought I was going to write serious Oscar movies.

00:34:46Guest:I never wanted to do comedy.

00:34:48Guest:I never watched stand-up.

00:34:50Guest:All of this was not planned.

00:34:54Marc:Right.

00:34:54Marc:Yeah, I never wanted to do any of this.

00:34:56Guest:What were the movies that moved you the most to sort of- Probably 70s cinema, so like Scorsese.

00:35:02Marc:Those guys, yeah.

00:35:04Guest:Yeah.

00:35:04Yeah.

00:35:04Guest:the conversation, that sort of stuff.

00:35:06Guest:I really was just like, yeah, that's what I was watching.

00:35:10Marc:An hour watching Gene Hackman tear the walls out of his apartment and play saxophone.

00:35:16Marc:That was the one?

00:35:17Guest:Yeah, I was like, I could write that.

00:35:20Guest:But that's what I was watching.

00:35:21Guest:And so I was like, well...

00:35:24Guest:I feel like I should move to New York.

00:35:26Guest:I watched a show, Felicity, and it's about this white girl with curly hair, and she moved to New York for a guy.

00:35:32Guest:I wasn't gonna move for a guy, but I was like, I wanna move to New York.

00:35:36Guest:I think that'd be cool.

00:35:37Guest:So I tried to get an NYU, and they were like, your grades are fucking trash.

00:35:40Guest:So they rejected me.

00:35:42Guest:I was like,

00:35:44Guest:maybe a C minus student oh yeah I just you didn't even kick into gear in the last year that's what I did no I didn't care I was like I didn't care I went to my brother and I went to this like predominantly white high school and I honestly I just went because he was going yeah and I just like wanted to like sort of do what he did and he was like the cool guy on campus like every girl wanted to date him he was like in jazz band he did like speech like he was just like the cool dude and I was like not cool

00:36:13Guest:I was just Phil's sister, which is like fine.

00:36:15Guest:But I just totally was.

00:36:17Guest:Yeah.

00:36:18Guest:It just took me a minute to sort of like figure out myself and like what I wanted to do.

00:36:21Guest:So high school, I just sort of phoned it in.

00:36:23Guest:It was I don't know.

00:36:25Guest:It was funny, but I was it never registers anything other than me just being sarcastic.

00:36:30Marc:But even there, like the idea that you were one of the few black people there.

00:36:33Guest:Yeah.

00:36:34Guest:Yeah, I was the only black girl in my grade.

00:36:36Marc:So, like, yeah, I see.

00:36:38Marc:Like, I have to think about what that would feel like.

00:36:42Marc:Yeah.

00:36:42Marc:And it's got, you know, just like every day.

00:36:44Marc:Yeah.

00:36:45Marc:You're like, I'm here.

00:36:46Marc:The one is here.

00:36:47Marc:Like, I can't.

00:36:49Guest:Yeah.

00:36:50Guest:And you feel different.

00:36:53Guest:Like, you fully feel different.

00:36:55Marc:All the time.

00:36:56Marc:Yeah.

00:36:56Yeah.

00:36:57Marc:Yeah, and on top of that, you're a woman.

00:36:59Guest:Yeah.

00:37:00Marc:So there's that part too.

00:37:01Guest:Yeah, so it's just like.

00:37:03Marc:Double whammy.

00:37:03Guest:Yeah, and I think in the long run, it was very good for me to go there, but I think I had to sort of personally work out

00:37:11Guest:mentally what that felt like to be the only black person in a room.

00:37:16Marc:Yeah.

00:37:17Guest:And it felt weird.

00:37:19Guest:And I, I wish I would have had like another black girl in my grade.

00:37:22Guest:Cause I think that would have been like a good sort of lifeline, but you know,

00:37:27Marc:Someone to be like, this is fucking crazy, right?

00:37:29Guest:Yeah, exactly.

00:37:30Guest:Or just like, I don't know, I was doing work study.

00:37:35Guest:It wasn't like my parents were rich, you know what I mean?

00:37:38Guest:So it was just class-wise, race-wise, it was not on the same as other people.

00:37:44Marc:Did you experience actual sort of racism?

00:37:49Guest:People were actually pretty chill.

00:37:51Guest:But I also, yeah, people were actually, I think it's when I've gotten older and like being in the adult world, that's where that has come in more.

00:37:59Marc:But do you see, do you classify overcompensating as an antidote to an individual's racism?

00:38:09Marc:Wouldn't they overcompensate as being, is that more annoying in some way?

00:38:14Guest:yes it is it's it's like i don't i'm like you don't have to be my it's like if i get into a car and you know i get into a lift and they like immediately like change it to like fucking bruno mars i'm like you were you were listening to i don't know monsters and men or whatever the band is just listen to that like you don't have to change it to jay-z because i'm in the car because you think i like that yeah and i'm like i do like jay-z sure who doesn't

00:38:40Guest:Yeah, you can leave it on some, you know, indie folk whatever.

00:38:44Guest:Yeah, yeah.

00:38:45Guest:Yeah.

00:38:46Marc:So, okay, so you're there and you're funny, but you're not thinking, you just want to go to New York.

00:38:50Guest:Yeah, I just want to go to New York and write serious movies.

00:38:53Guest:And then I got to Pratt, and I think I ended up being like a straight A student.

00:38:58Guest:Like, I really just, it's what I wanted to do.

00:39:00Guest:I was like, oh, I want to write.

00:39:01Guest:Yeah, and I did.

00:39:03Marc:Did you make short films?

00:39:04Guest:no so i do like a lot of like writing like short stories and like short scripts and then funnily enough i joined when i joined my improv troop maybe sophomore year yeah we had like just like a random like informal improv troop on campus and like i think like chris gethard came to teach us one yeah one day like it was really cool but i still never i was like oh this is a fun way to pass the time

00:39:29Marc:You didn't know about that world.

00:39:31Guest:Yeah, I was just sort of like, that's cool.

00:39:33Marc:You wanted to write.

00:39:34Guest:Yeah.

00:39:35Marc:And there was this whole teeming world of funny people out there.

00:39:38Guest:Yeah.

00:39:38Marc:That you just started to see.

00:39:40Guest:Yeah, and then I remember I had Nori Davis, who's this amazing stand-up comic.

00:39:45Guest:He was like, you should do stand-up.

00:39:47Guest:And I was like, no, I don't want to do that.

00:39:49Guest:It's dumb.

00:39:50Marc:But did you ever like stand-up?

00:39:52Guest:Before I started getting into stand-up, I saw a Chris Rock special, an Ellen DeGeneres one, maybe Margaret Cho, and that was it.

00:40:04Guest:I will say I was into Dane Cook for half a minute, which I know people- It's a lot of energy.

00:40:11Guest:Yeah, a lot of energy.

00:40:12Guest:I stand by the first album.

00:40:15Guest:I don't know if it holds up, but it held up when I listened to it.

00:40:17Marc:It was exciting.

00:40:18Guest:Yeah.

00:40:19Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:40:21Marc:He was all worked up about little things.

00:40:23Marc:It's nice.

00:40:26Guest:I love the casual drag.

00:40:27Guest:I'm great at it.

00:40:30Guest:You are really good at it.

00:40:31Guest:I'm like, damn.

00:40:33Guest:Damn, he's been around a lot of black people because he knows how to just fucking rip you a new asshole.

00:40:37Guest:You don't even realize it.

00:40:39Marc:A few minutes later, what just happened?

00:40:41Marc:Where is that guy?

00:40:44Guest:My boyfriend's like that.

00:40:46Guest:Brits are really good at that.

00:40:48Guest:They're so good at being condescending.

00:40:51Marc:Because you assume they're doing it anyways, just by the way they talk.

00:40:54Marc:So when they really do it, it's like, oh, that's a nine.

00:40:59Marc:They're always at a three.

00:41:01Guest:Yeah.

00:41:02Guest:That was like one of the big sort of cultural things with my boyfriend and I when we first started dating.

00:41:08Guest:I thought he was always being condescending and he thought I was always yelling at him.

00:41:12Guest:And I was like, this is like New York.

00:41:17Guest:Everyone is really passionate and we're going to say everything we want to say before you're allowed to talk again, but I'm not yelling.

00:41:25Guest:He didn't get it.

00:41:26Marc:Your personality has to operate at the same frequency of the city.

00:41:29Guest:Yes, exactly.

00:41:31Guest:So he'd be like, why are all you and your friends just yelling at each other?

00:41:33Guest:I'm like, oh, no, we're having a good time.

00:41:35Guest:We love each other.

00:41:37Guest:But he thought I was like verbally just screaming at him.

00:41:40Guest:I was like, I love you, man.

00:41:43Marc:See, you're yelling again.

00:41:45Guest:And I know it's like sometimes I will be like literally berating him with positivity.

00:41:51Guest:And I've caught myself being like, I'm just yelling at this man.

00:41:54Marc:Yeah.

00:41:55Marc:Yeah.

00:41:55Marc:Berating him with positivity.

00:41:57Marc:What a horrible thing.

00:41:57Marc:Yeah.

00:41:58Marc:You are so fucking good.

00:42:00Guest:god damn it you are something you are great and that's what i did but i fucking love you man you're so he'd be like why are you screaming at me he's like i don't know if you love me right now i'm feeling a subtext yeah um but yeah so i i did uh i did improv and then when i graduated i was like uh i'm just gonna work at a couple film companies and then i worked i was a receptionist at new line cinema

00:42:26Guest:Oh, yeah.

00:42:28Guest:And then I was like an executive assistant at Picture House.

00:42:31Marc:I don't know what that is.

00:42:32Guest:Production House?

00:42:33Guest:It was like a division of New Line.

00:42:36Guest:They fold it, and now they're back.

00:42:38Guest:And I was miserable.

00:42:39Guest:I hated it.

00:42:41Marc:For what reason?

00:42:41Guest:I don't want to be in an office nine to five.

00:42:44Guest:I was like, this is terrible.

00:42:46Marc:Not weird office dynamics, just a job.

00:42:49Guest:Just a job, like clocking in every day.

00:42:51Marc:The worst.

00:42:52Guest:Yeah, I was like this.

00:42:52Marc:Small talk.

00:42:54Yeah.

00:42:54Guest:Hey, did you watch that last night?

00:42:56Marc:I did.

00:42:57Guest:Yeah.

00:42:58Marc:We both experienced it.

00:42:59Marc:And then you just back into like, I want it to be dead.

00:43:05Guest:But that's what it was.

00:43:06Guest:It was just like, hey, whatever.

00:43:08Guest:Like we're just talking about nothing.

00:43:09Marc:I don't know how people do it.

00:43:10Guest:Yeah, it's brutal.

00:43:11Guest:And a friend of mine, who I think lives in San Francisco now, she was like, I want to take a stand-up class at Caroline's.

00:43:19Guest:And I was like, no, I don't want to do that.

00:43:22Guest:And she's like, you hate your job.

00:43:24Guest:And I was like, okay.

00:43:26Marc:But everyone knew you were funny at this point.

00:43:27Marc:Were you writing?

00:43:28Marc:Were you putting out stuff that you were writing?

00:43:31Marc:No, nobody, oh, okay.

00:43:32Guest:No, I was so miserable at my job, I stopped writing.

00:43:35Marc:And this is after college?

00:43:37Guest:It was after college.

00:43:37Guest:I was 22, 23.

00:43:39Guest:I wasn't writing anymore.

00:43:42Marc:No.

00:43:43Marc:You died inside.

00:43:44Guest:I think I did.

00:43:45Guest:No one ever said that to me, but I think I kind of did where I was just like, I guess this is it.

00:43:49Marc:That's the worst thing.

00:43:50Marc:That happens in all types of things.

00:43:52Guest:Yeah.

00:43:53Marc:Because if you don't know really what you want to do or you don't have the courage to do it right then, you kind of surrender.

00:44:00Marc:Like relationships too.

00:44:00Marc:I'm like, I guess this is it.

00:44:02Yeah.

00:44:02Marc:You know, I could get a little better.

00:44:04Marc:Yeah.

00:44:05Marc:But, you know, this is what most people do.

00:44:06Guest:Yeah.

00:44:08Guest:And that's what I was like.

00:44:08Guest:Oh, just like work my way up, you know, the corporate ladder.

00:44:11Guest:And I guess I'll be like an exec.

00:44:13Marc:Nothing happened to shatter your writing dreams to that degree.

00:44:17Marc:You just like jumped into it.

00:44:18Guest:I was just like, I just didn't think that I could perform.

00:44:22Guest:I just was sort of like, this is the path that people take.

00:44:25Guest:You just get an office job.

00:44:26Marc:Security.

00:44:27Guest:Yeah, you get an office job, you work your way up, and then that's just what you do.

00:44:31Marc:What was your parents' angle?

00:44:32Guest:I think my parents...

00:44:34Guest:They were pretty much like, do whatever it is that you want to do.

00:44:39Guest:But I think there was sort of an inkling that I wanted to perform when I started doing improv, but I would never admit that to anyone.

00:44:46Guest:It was just like, oh, this is a fun way to pass time or make friends.

00:44:50Guest:It was never like, I enjoy being on stage.

00:44:53Guest:It was just like friendship bonding.

00:44:55Marc:And see, like when I was coming up there, that wasn't sort of like we can take an improv class or a standup class just to learn how to be a better people out in the world and talk.

00:45:03Marc:Yeah.

00:45:04Marc:It'd be a fun thing to do.

00:45:06Marc:You know?

00:45:07Guest:Yeah.

00:45:07Guest:But it was just like this is a fun escape from like your office job.

00:45:10Guest:Right.

00:45:10Guest:And so then Lindsay was like, just take this class.

00:45:13Guest:It's only eight weeks.

00:45:15Guest:Linda Smith is a teacher.

00:45:16Marc:Oh, she's great.

00:45:17Marc:She's amazing.

00:45:18Marc:I go way back with her.

00:45:19Marc:She's awesome.

00:45:20Marc:I literally did my first open mics with Linda Smith in Boston.

00:45:25Guest:Really?

00:45:26Marc:Yes.

00:45:26Guest:Oh, my God.

00:45:27Marc:Yes.

00:45:28Marc:Amazing.

00:45:29Marc:And that's like...

00:45:30Marc:Jesus, that's like 19, when I was in college, and I first did a few open mics before I got out of college, it was like in the mid 80s.

00:45:41Marc:I loved her, she was great.

00:45:42Guest:Yeah, so great.

00:45:43Guest:And so I was like, all right, I'll take this dumb class, it's eight weeks, and I'll go back to my office job.

00:45:48Guest:And then the first the first time because like our first assignment was to like write five minutes of like whatever.

00:45:55Guest:Yeah.

00:45:56Guest:And we were like in kind of like this.

00:45:58Guest:It felt like a room that just had like an AA meeting that let out.

00:46:04Guest:And then they put the stand up class like the chairs like in a half circle.

00:46:07Guest:It was like an empty donut.

00:46:09Marc:It wasn't at Caroline's.

00:46:10Guest:It wasn't at Caroline's.

00:46:11Guest:It was like a small it was like some random small like room.

00:46:14Guest:Huh.

00:46:14Guest:And I touched the microphone and I was like, oh, whoa.

00:46:20Guest:And I got like my first laugh was like some dumb joke.

00:46:22Guest:I don't remember.

00:46:23Guest:But I was like, this is interesting.

00:46:25Marc:It is interesting.

00:46:26Guest:Yeah.

00:46:28Marc:You know, you take it for granted now.

00:46:29Marc:Yeah.

00:46:30Marc:But that first time where you like, you know, you hold the thing and you're not sure how to hold it, but it's like, it's like power, right?

00:46:36Marc:Yeah.

00:46:36Guest:And you take it out the mic stand.

00:46:38Guest:I was like, oh, that's cool.

00:46:40Marc:Right.

00:46:40Guest:Yeah.

00:46:41Guest:And it was nothing that special, but I just was like, oh, I think this is what I should be doing.

00:46:47Guest:So I immediately was like, I just started going to open mics.

00:46:51Marc:Writing again.

00:46:51Guest:Writing again.

00:46:52Guest:Started going to open mics.

00:46:53Guest:And then I got laid.

00:46:55Guest:So that was July 2008.

00:46:57Guest:Got laid off from my office job.

00:47:00Guest:October, 2008.

00:47:02Guest:And I'm a big, like the universe, I'm pretty, I'm like not like religious, but I really do believe like the universe is always talking to us and we just have to listen.

00:47:11Guest:So I'm always looking out for signs.

00:47:13Marc:Yeah.

00:47:13Marc:It's upset right now.

00:47:14Guest:Yeah.

00:47:14Guest:It's fucking wants to kill us all right now.

00:47:17Marc:Working on it.

00:47:18Guest:Yeah.

00:47:19Guest:And I was like, Oh, well I got laid off and I got this small severance package right when I found the thing I was supposed to be doing with my life.

00:47:27Guest:That's a sign.

00:47:28Marc:Oh, so you're like, things happen the way they're supposed to kind of person.

00:47:31Guest:Yeah, so then I just doubled down, and I did open mics, and I had shitty temp jobs.

00:47:35Guest:Oh, yeah?

00:47:36Marc:Like what?

00:47:37Guest:My weirdest one is I temped at MAC Cosmetics, and their whole thing is like, everyone has to wear all black.

00:47:46Guest:You can't wear any color.

00:47:47Guest:And I was like, even a temp, and I'm like, yes, you have to go out and buy all black clothes.

00:47:52Guest:Yeah.

00:47:52Guest:And no one ate.

00:47:54Marc:No one ate there?

00:47:55No one ate.

00:47:55Guest:I was like, what the fuck is this?

00:47:57Marc:A cult?

00:47:59Guest:It was so weird.

00:48:00Guest:And it was only like three weeks and I was like, oh, no, I don't want, no, this is insane.

00:48:06Guest:But I could not believe, like I would go, because I was like early 20s and I was like, oh, I can like still eat like shit.

00:48:12Guest:So I would like go to Wendy's and bring back my shitty fast food.

00:48:16Guest:You could just tell people are like horrified that I'm like eating something.

00:48:19Marc:still love wendy's i did too i remember like i was in high school when yeah when the first wendy's opened like when the chain started and they yeah so it was like i'm pretty sure yeah i was like it was a late 70s maybe yeah and there was one we could walk to from my high school and just those greasy square burgers yeah like the double cheeseburger yeah they were so good so good oh yeah i remember i remember when they put salad bars in the wendy's

00:48:49Marc:And everyone was like, nah, I don't know.

00:48:51Marc:We're good.

00:48:52Marc:Yeah.

00:48:53Marc:Yeah.

00:48:53Marc:It's very exciting times.

00:48:55Marc:Yeah.

00:48:55Guest:Yeah.

00:48:55Guest:And so I would just eat like my shitty, greasy food temp and then do stand up at night.

00:49:01Marc:Yeah.

00:49:01Guest:Yeah.

00:49:01Guest:And I would do like biker bars in Staten Island.

00:49:05Marc:How the fuck does that happen?

00:49:07Marc:I've done a lot of weird gigs when I was starting out, but a biker bar on Staten Island?

00:49:13Marc:Some comic had that gig?

00:49:15Guest:Yeah, so he would have a bunch of us go with him, and it was just kind of this like, and they did not give a fuck that we were there.

00:49:22Guest:It was brutal, but you need that.

00:49:24Guest:I did a lot of those, yeah.

00:49:25Guest:Yeah, you need people not caring at all.

00:49:27Marc:Do you remember the feeling of the first time you go to Staten Island, you're like, it's kind of scary.

00:49:32Marc:You're like,

00:49:32Marc:do people live out here yeah because you hear things about staten island it's this weird kind of like enclave of gangsters and retired cops and firefighters and there's a dump there and you're like what is who lives out there and it's like suburban but then like there's no one on the streets ever like it was just weird yeah yeah so you did a lot of those kind i did a lot of that stuff and got in so much debt yeah

00:49:56Marc:Oh, really?

00:49:56Marc:Well, it's good that they didn't give a fuck as opposed to give a fuck in some level.

00:50:00Marc:It's weird when you do those one-nighters that are not at comedy clubs and it's a comedy night and you walk in and they're like, yeah, just over there.

00:50:08Marc:What about the people?

00:50:11Marc:They'll come, maybe.

00:50:13Marc:Oh, God.

00:50:14Marc:All right.

00:50:14Marc:And you do it.

00:50:15Marc:The weird thing about, and I don't know if it was the same experience for you, the weird thing about those gigs is you give it your all.

00:50:21Guest:Yeah, because you think you're like, I'm going to turn them.

00:50:24Marc:Yeah, exactly.

00:50:25Guest:Yeah, you're not going to turn them.

00:50:27Guest:But then I started like this Manchester pub.

00:50:30Guest:It was a bar in Midtown and I started hosting like I think a twice a month show there.

00:50:36Guest:We got paid in like chicken wings and beer.

00:50:39Guest:And like that's just like I was just grinding.

00:50:42Marc:And when did you first start like getting work?

00:50:46Guest:Oh, God.

00:50:48Marc:Like did you start doing which clubs did they let you in eventually?

00:50:51Marc:I like I'm now just slowly starting to do clubs like I just been doing like indie shit right and like doing festivals and just like so you came up in the on the in the alt scene yeah yeah yeah yeah okay so let's come back to where we were which is that feeling of of like you know when you started doing comedy in New York and you know in terms of being black yes

00:51:15Marc:In that world.

00:51:17Marc:Like the alt world is different.

00:51:18Marc:Isn't it?

00:51:20Guest:I mean, it's different, but it's still like a bunch of white dudes who think you don't belong.

00:51:24Marc:Well, I see the audiences even on the HBO show.

00:51:27Marc:Yeah.

00:51:28Marc:It's pretty diverse.

00:51:29Marc:Now, getting there, the first one was pretty white.

00:51:32Guest:No.

00:51:33Guest:No?

00:51:34Guest:This is what I will say.

00:51:35Guest:I think the way the seating was done, I think, was to... So they made the black people sit in the back?

00:51:46Guest:I don't think they made the black people sit in the back, but I think they wanted it to feel like... Yeah.

00:51:50Guest:Right.

00:51:51Guest:There are white people who like this.

00:51:53Marc:Oh, that's what they were hoping?

00:51:56Marc:That seems like...

00:51:57Marc:See, it's for everybody.

00:51:58Guest:Exactly.

00:51:59Guest:I think that's sort of like what it was.

00:52:01Guest:But I was like, it was pretty, pretty diverse crowds for both seasons.

00:52:04Guest:But I think of everything I do, stand up is the most nerve wracking thing for me in terms of the community.

00:52:13Guest:Yes.

00:52:14Guest:And I've always.

00:52:15Guest:And so this is like what I was trying to say earlier that we circle back to.

00:52:20Guest:So I, you know, so I would, for example, I like I had a day job.

00:52:24Guest:I go, I do like some open mics and I go home and write and I do like my blogging or whatever.

00:52:30Guest:Like I always just had like a bunch of jobs because I like.

00:52:33Guest:I got my own apartment.

00:52:35Guest:I was living by myself by 23 in New York.

00:52:40Guest:And I was just hustling.

00:52:41Guest:That was just my thing.

00:52:42Guest:I'm like, you gotta hustle.

00:52:43Guest:So exciting though, isn't it?

00:52:44Guest:It's really exciting, but I was so focused on I just gotta support myself in New York.

00:52:49Guest:My parents can't afford to help me out.

00:52:51Guest:I just gotta make it happen.

00:52:53Guest:And I would notice...

00:52:55Guest:I was doing some open mics, and I just was noticing how toxic the energy was.

00:53:02Marc:With the cynical, bitter white dudes?

00:53:04Guest:Yeah, and just everyone's ragging everyone, like, oh, this person bombs.

00:53:08Guest:And you're like, yeah, it's a fucking open mic.

00:53:10Guest:People are just being so mean to each other.

00:53:16Guest:And I was like, this is fucking stupid.

00:53:18Guest:I don't need this.

00:53:19Guest:So I like...

00:53:21Guest:sort of stopped going to open mics and just started my own shows and was trying to find other shows where there's in a restaurant or wherever.

00:53:29Guest:So I was just started doing that.

00:53:31Guest:And I just kept encountering some white people who'd be like, some white comics would be like, oh, you think you're better than everyone else.

00:53:39Guest:And that comment was only ever said by other white comics.

00:53:43Guest:And I was like, I don't think I'm better than everybody else.

00:53:48Guest:I just am mentally, me being in a toxic environment where everyone was treating each other like shit, I didn't like.

00:53:57Guest:And there was a lot.

00:53:58Guest:I would get comments because I don't hang out.

00:54:00Guest:I'm not a big drinker.

00:54:01Guest:I never drink before I go on stage.

00:54:05Guest:I'm always pretty sober.

00:54:06Guest:I don't even want to call myself a square.

00:54:08Guest:That's just like... It's not your thing.

00:54:10Guest:Yeah, it's just not my thing.

00:54:11Guest:I don't mind having a glass of rosé afterwards, but I'm just like...

00:54:16Marc:But I get it.

00:54:18Marc:That's an interesting observation in that, you know, in the sense that when I grew up, when I came up.

00:54:23Guest:Yeah.

00:54:24Guest:Yeah.

00:54:24Marc:It was a bunch of miserable fucking dudes.

00:54:26Guest:Yeah.

00:54:26Marc:You know, who were, you know, who would talk behind each other's backs and like, you know, you know, secretly get excited when someone was tanking.

00:54:33Guest:And I saw that.

00:54:34Marc:Yeah.

00:54:35Marc:And like I do a bit about it on stage.

00:54:37Marc:It's like, you know, like when you hear that, like at the comedy store, like there's a laugh that comes out of the back when a joke tanks.

00:54:45Marc:Yeah.

00:54:46Marc:And it's very specifically a comic laugh.

00:54:49Marc:And it's not a real laugh.

00:54:50Marc:It's always like that.

00:54:52Marc:And like and that's how, you know, because they can't even laugh anymore.

00:54:55Marc:They're just excited that someone's failing.

00:54:57Marc:And that gives them some sort of like, you know, rush.

00:55:03Marc:But I mean, you know, I acknowledge it.

00:55:05Marc:And I there's.

00:55:06Marc:I guess what I'm saying is that there was a way of behaving in place that was essentially toxic and probably still is.

00:55:13Marc:Yeah.

00:55:13Marc:And it was just because we were all kind of like selfish, roguish, you know, angry dudes who were trying to get at this.

00:55:21Marc:But but you did the pressure to fit into that.

00:55:25Guest:Yeah, and I'm like, well, I don't want to sort of rag on someone if they bomb.

00:55:31Guest:I want to be like, we're all kind of shitty.

00:55:34Guest:We're all figuring it out.

00:55:37Guest:It just became this weird, oh, well, this person sucks.

00:55:40Guest:And I'm like, we all suck.

00:55:43Guest:We're all year four.

00:55:45Guest:We all suck.

00:55:46Guest:So me acting like this person's garbage and I'm a mate.

00:55:50Guest:I just didn't want to do that.

00:55:52Guest:Right.

00:55:52Guest:The mentality of it, I just couldn't get into the like sometimes, you know, if I do well in a show, like comics would talk to me beforehand.

00:56:01Guest:If I do well in a show, sometimes the male comics wouldn't talk to me or like they wouldn't acknowledge me.

00:56:06Guest:And then I do well in a show.

00:56:07Guest:Then they talk to me.

00:56:08Guest:And I was like, this is all fucking.

00:56:10Guest:I was like, this is terrible.

00:56:12Guest:Like I see.

00:56:15Guest:When a woman or a person of color stops doing stand-up comedy, I always get it 1,000%.

00:56:21Guest:Yeah.

00:56:22Guest:Oh, I go... Yeah.

00:56:25Guest:It's hard.

00:56:27Guest:Yeah.

00:56:27Guest:Because it's just like you are... Like, I would rarely...

00:56:32Guest:I would usually be the only one of me on a show.

00:56:35Guest:I've had people say, Oh, we can't have like another black person on the show.

00:56:39Guest:Cause I make it weird.

00:56:40Guest:Like full, like fully just like, like it's casual.

00:56:44Guest:Yeah.

00:56:44Guest:And you're like, it's not weird to have two black people on the show.

00:56:47Guest:What the fuck are we talking about?

00:56:49Guest:Yeah.

00:56:50Guest:But just the sort of like.

00:56:51Marc:You got to mix it up.

00:56:52Marc:Four white guys, one black person.

00:56:55Marc:You get two black people, then it's half and half and it's not fair.

00:56:59Guest:Yeah, like, oh, this is like a weird ethnic night.

00:57:01Guest:And I'm like, what?

00:57:03Guest:But that's like the shit I was dealing with.

00:57:04Guest:And I was like, I don't, I like standup comedy, but I don't like standup comedians.

00:57:09Guest:And that's how I felt for a really long time.

00:57:12Guest:Yeah.

00:57:12Guest:Because there was just so much like shitty behavior.

00:57:15Guest:And then I would sort of like start talking shit about people.

00:57:17Guest:I'm like, why are you even.

00:57:18Marc:You started to get infected.

00:57:19Guest:Yeah, and I was like, no, don't do that, Phoebs.

00:57:22Guest:Don't be that.

00:57:24Marc:Yeah, you know, again, because of my part in that, but I was always the most toxic in a way, because I was jealous, angry, and you just fester.

00:57:41Marc:I start to rationalize it like,

00:57:43Marc:Back then or even in retrospect, comics are essentially people that don't, at least my generation, they fundamentally did not fit into society.

00:57:53Guest:Yeah.

00:57:54Marc:Or they made choices that either they were in it for the women or they were in it so they could be borderline criminals and just smoke weed all day and wander around and sleep until noon.

00:58:05Marc:Yeah.

00:58:06Marc:Yeah.

00:58:07Marc:And be on the road.

00:58:09Marc:Yeah.

00:58:09Marc:So I always saw them as these gypsies and rogues who were just like misanthropic freaks.

00:58:15Guest:Yeah.

00:58:16Marc:And I thought in my head, well, that's what comedy is.

00:58:19Marc:That's who we are.

00:58:21Guest:Like when Jess and I started Two Dope Queens.

00:58:23Yeah.

00:58:23Guest:We started in part because I did improv in New York, she did in LA, and we're only always surrounded by white people.

00:58:32Guest:We're like, but we know tons of funny people of color.

00:58:36Guest:We know funny queer people.

00:58:38Guest:We know funny women, so why aren't they on these shows?

00:58:40Guest:And so we were just sort of like...

00:58:43Guest:I think what happens a lot of times it's not about it's about the fact that we're just not seen.

00:58:50Guest:Right.

00:58:51Guest:And so a lot of times those groups that are marginalized just aren't even considered at all.

00:58:58Right.

00:58:58Marc:And if they are, it's on ethnic night.

00:59:00Guest:Yes, exactly.

00:59:01Guest:And you're like, well, I could do stand-up at this club any night of the week.

00:59:05Guest:Right.

00:59:05Guest:Do you know what I mean?

00:59:06Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:59:07Guest:And it's sort of like, I remember when I was blogging for a while that anytime anything, something black happened, I'd be like, hey, do you want to write about this?

00:59:16Guest:I'm like...

00:59:17Guest:Dude, ask me to fucking write about you two.

00:59:20Guest:I can fucking write about that too.

00:59:21Guest:And it feels very much like you're just putting me in a box that that's my only value is to be this black person who can represent all black people.

00:59:30Guest:And so when Jess and I started Two Dope Queens, we were like, well, we just know so many hilarious people.

00:59:35Marc:Yeah.

00:59:36Marc:Just have them on.

00:59:37Marc:That aren't mainstream or aren't represented.

00:59:41Marc:Yeah.

00:59:41Marc:Yeah, yeah.

00:59:42Guest:So it's like, just have them on.

00:59:43Guest:And so I think there's a way to go about inclusion that is not condescending.

00:59:48Guest:And I think people confuse that.

00:59:50Marc:Interesting.

00:59:51Guest:And that inclusion means, oh, we're bringing in people who are unqualified.

00:59:56Guest:And it's like, no, inclusion means...

00:59:57Marc:opening your eyes and seeing that there are people who are just as valuable as you are right they don't look like you yeah yeah yeah and I you know I it's as I said I'm guilty of these things yeah you know I had a writer's room that was all dudes you know for my show yeah and and you know it was you know it's an it's like it wasn't even that great

01:00:23Marc:Like, I don't know.

01:00:26Marc:But it comes down to that same fear we were talking about, that the desire to not self-check, right?

01:00:35Marc:So, like, when you ask me about race, like, do I, you know, get, you know, self, you know, kind of like, do I, like, what is the word I'm looking for?

01:00:43Marc:You know, just sort of, like, check myself before I talk.

01:00:45Marc:Yeah.

01:00:45Marc:And the idea that if I'm in a writer room full of dudes, we can be whatever we're going to be, just fucking dudes talking about bullshit, making jokes.

01:00:55Marc:And then the idea that if we had a woman in there, well, then we can't talk about our dicks as much.

01:01:01Marc:What is that?

01:01:01Guest:Yeah, it's like, come on.

01:01:02Marc:It's like, maybe you shouldn't.

01:01:03Marc:Yeah.

01:01:04Marc:Maybe it's not necessary.

01:01:05Guest:Exactly.

01:01:06Marc:That comfort zone might not be the best thing.

01:01:09Guest:Yeah.

01:01:09Marc:But I think that people have to learn that.

01:01:11Marc:I don't think it's innate for everybody.

01:01:13Guest:Yeah, and I don't think anyone comes into it fully woke or fully perfect and, you know.

01:01:19Guest:I just think now I try to be more aware of like everyone who's because it's very easy for each group like I could just I remember when I started my other podcast so many white guys which is like an interview show and I have one token white guy that interview at the end of the each season.

01:01:35Guest:And I remember, and I try to have a pretty diverse where I have women, people of color, queer people, just a really big mix.

01:01:44Guest:And I remember I had a couple people who tweeted at me who were like, I'm disappointed that your guests aren't all black.

01:01:51Guest:They just wanted to be like an all black show.

01:01:53Guest:And I was like, well, diversity to me is not just only black people be in the room.

01:01:58Guest:I'm like, there are hundreds of races.

01:02:00Guest:And I feel like a lot of times in entertainment, the race conversation is just black, white, as if there aren't like, you know, Indians, Asians, Latinx, all those people.

01:02:10Guest:So I was like, I want to have it be diverse.

01:02:12Guest:I'm like, well, this should just be like,

01:02:14Guest:all black guests.

01:02:15Guest:And I'm like, well, then go make that show.

01:02:17Guest:But it was this weird thing where people just like your responsibility.

01:02:20Guest:Yeah.

01:02:21Guest:And I was like, well, I want to bring everyone along.

01:02:23Guest:So I don't know.

01:02:24Guest:I just think everyone has to find their own comfort level.

01:02:27Guest:But I think if you're actively not preventing someone from, you know, an opportunity because they don't look like you, I think that you're

01:02:36Guest:you know, doing something right.

01:02:38Marc:It's not terrible.

01:02:38Guest:Yeah.

01:02:39Guest:I think it's on it, but I think you could have probably had a woman in the writing writers.

01:02:44Marc:I know.

01:02:45Marc:I agree.

01:02:46Marc:Yeah.

01:02:47Guest:Yeah.

01:02:47Marc:Yeah.

01:02:47Marc:It would have been good.

01:02:48Guest:Yeah.

01:02:49Marc:Like, so, well, that's, that's the thing is that, you know, guys like me or people like me, you know, what, what, what's required is just to walk around with a modicum of shame about how you've behaved and try to correct that.

01:03:03Guest:Yeah, and I feel like there are ways I've behaved in the past that aren't great, and I want to correct that, you know what I mean?

01:03:10Guest:And that's everybody.

01:03:12Marc:Well, what did you glean from doing that show, from that podcast?

01:03:16Guest:The reason why I started it is because

01:03:20Guest:I remember, I'm really close friends with Abby and Alana, and I remember when Broad City was coming out.

01:03:25Marc:I had them on, I gave them cereal.

01:03:27Guest:Yes, I remember that episode.

01:03:28Guest:It was like the cutest thing.

01:03:30Guest:It was so sweet.

01:03:31Guest:I was like, that's a dad move.

01:03:34Guest:That's a very cute dad move.

01:03:35Guest:They were hungry.

01:03:37Guest:And I remember when they were interviewed on a lot of shows, and people would be like, so you're girls, and you have your own show.

01:03:45Mm-hmm.

01:03:46Guest:And you're like, that's the question?

01:03:48Guest:That's the fucking research you did?

01:03:51Guest:That they have vaginas and they have a show?

01:03:53Guest:And I just would see all these interviews, whether it's them or Janet Mock, and it's like, so you're trans.

01:03:58Guest:And I'd be like, these interviews are just othering them.

01:04:01Guest:And the only thing that's interesting about them is that they're not the interviewer.

01:04:06Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:04:07Guest:So I was like, let me just talk to people about just their lives and who they are and not make it like, so you're Asian.

01:04:14Marc:Right, right.

01:04:14Guest:That's wild.

01:04:15Marc:Right, yeah.

01:04:16Guest:It's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

01:04:17Marc:Yeah, I'm guilty of that.

01:04:18Guest:Yeah.

01:04:19Guest:You haven't done it with me, so I appreciate that.

01:04:21Marc:No, but like, I had to learn weird lessons.

01:04:23Marc:Yeah.

01:04:24Marc:Yeah, like I did it with Mindy Kaling.

01:04:27Marc:Because I'm so fascinated with Indian culture and Indian food and I don't know much about it.

01:04:33Marc:So I just, I assumed that she would tell me.

01:04:35Marc:Yeah.

01:04:35Guest:And she was like, what are you?

01:04:37Guest:That's why they have Google, man.

01:04:40Marc:I know, but in the moment, I didn't see anything wrong with it.

01:04:47Marc:And that's what you learn in those conversations, is that there is a reason to be a little gun-shy

01:04:56Marc:You know, in terms of what you're about to say, because you have to be like, am I doing that?

01:05:02Marc:Am I othering them?

01:05:04Marc:Am I seeing them as a representative of some mystical world that I don't understand as a white guy?

01:05:12Guest:Yeah.

01:05:13Marc:As opposed to just a person, you know, who's got a life.

01:05:16Marc:Yeah.

01:05:17Marc:Yeah.

01:05:18Marc:Well, you learn the hard way.

01:05:19Guest:Yeah.

01:05:20Guest:And you don't do that.

01:05:21Guest:You OK?

01:05:22Guest:That side was just like, oh, well, no, I. Yeah.

01:05:26Marc:But I there's some parts of it where I think there is real curiosity and I don't I don't think it can be misplaced.

01:05:35Marc:But I think that the nature of us all being people is one thing.

01:05:39Marc:But people do come from different lives.

01:05:41Marc:Yeah.

01:05:41Marc:And they are sometimes specific to race.

01:05:44Marc:And there has to be, if you're curious, okay, you can Google it.

01:05:48Marc:And not everyone is a representative of that community.

01:05:52Marc:But it is an honest mistake to sort of put people in that position.

01:05:58Guest:You're like the 5,000th white person to have done that to her.

01:06:03Guest:Do you know what I mean?

01:06:04Guest:So every time I go into a new space, it's like all eyes on me.

01:06:07Guest:And it's like...

01:06:09Marc:How are the black people doing?

01:06:10Guest:Class, get out your books.

01:06:14Guest:There's going to be an exam in two weeks.

01:06:16Guest:Yeah.

01:06:17Guest:And it's just like that gets tiring.

01:06:19Marc:Yeah.

01:06:20Marc:I guess like, yeah, the cultural, you know, sort of responsibility put upon you.

01:06:25Guest:Yeah.

01:06:26Marc:Gets tiring.

01:06:26Marc:But oddly.

01:06:27Guest:Yeah.

01:06:28Marc:However you handle that is going to be informative to the people that are ignorant of what they're doing.

01:06:36Guest:Oh, yeah.

01:06:37Guest:I am.

01:06:37Guest:I have to.

01:06:38Guest:My customers are.

01:06:39Guest:I am so fucking polite.

01:06:41Guest:I have to be because I can't be like the fucking angry black woman who goes fucking nuts in Verizon.

01:06:48Guest:So I'm just like, excuse me, ma'am.

01:06:50Guest:I just need to speak to your supervisor.

01:06:52Guest:Like I am.

01:06:53Guest:I don't talk this way.

01:06:54Guest:I don't fucking say ma'am.

01:06:57Guest:But that's what I got to be.

01:06:58Guest:It's tiring.

01:07:01Guest:Yeah.

01:07:02Guest:You're tired.

01:07:04Guest:I can see in your face, you're like, oh, man.

01:07:05Guest:And that's what it's like all the time.

01:07:07Marc:Yeah.

01:07:08Guest:Sucks.

01:07:08Marc:Yeah.

01:07:09Guest:But then there's other great things about being black, so it's like, it's fine.

01:07:13Marc:Okay.

01:07:13Marc:As long as it balances out.

01:07:14Guest:Yeah.

01:07:15Guest:I think it balances out.

01:07:16Guest:Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:07:17Marc:There's another essay in your book about how to avoid being the black friend.

01:07:23Guest:Yeah, oh yeah.

01:07:25Marc:That's sort of in the same area of this, isn't it?

01:07:28Marc:How do you know that's happening?

01:07:30Marc:When it's happening.

01:07:32Guest:Yeah, sometimes you don't know and then you show up to a party and you're like,

01:07:37Guest:oh shit I'm the only one here I gotta get the fuck out there's a lot of that and you're just like and I don't think people are going this is my black friend like I did it but I think there is that sort of like well I made contact with one so I'm good you know and so it's just it's so fucking annoying it's weird I think a lot of times I don't know

01:08:06Marc:But I imagine some people are just insulated in their world, and they feel like they do need to make an effort.

01:08:13Marc:Yeah.

01:08:14Marc:There's an innocence to it as well.

01:08:16Marc:Yes.

01:08:18Marc:If you're just, wherever you're working or whatever, or your life is just a dozen white people, and you have that moment where you're like, I gotta broaden my... Yeah.

01:08:30Marc:I know that one girl.

01:08:30Guest:Yeah.

01:08:32Guest:And that's like crazy.

01:08:34Guest:But I'll give you this example.

01:08:36Guest:It was... So I live in Brooklyn with my boyfriend.

01:08:39Guest:We put our names on the list for this restaurant.

01:08:41Guest:We had to like wait a half an hour.

01:08:43Guest:So we went down the street to this bar and we walked in and he was the only white person there.

01:08:50Guest:And I could tell he got a little...

01:08:54Guest:He just got a little like the way that I like, you know, get.

01:08:57Guest:That's how he got.

01:08:58Guest:And I was like, do you feel uncomfortable that you're the only white person here?

01:09:02Guest:He was like, yeah, I do.

01:09:04Guest:And I was like, that's my fucking life, dog.

01:09:07Guest:That's how I was.

01:09:09Guest:I had to meet his family.

01:09:10Guest:I went to the UK for fucking eight days.

01:09:13Guest:And I was the only fucking black person anywhere for eight days.

01:09:17Guest:And I was like, that's how I felt meeting your.

01:09:19Guest:I don't know these people.

01:09:21Marc:Yeah.

01:09:21Guest:I had to impress all these fucking white people in your life.

01:09:24Guest:And I'm like, that was that's me.

01:09:26Marc:How did that go?

01:09:27Guest:It was good.

01:09:28Guest:But I was like, I'm tired.

01:09:29Guest:I was like, I am tired of only seeing white people.

01:09:34Guest:And everyone came up and they were touching my hair.

01:09:37Guest:And I was like, that's a thing, huh?

01:09:40Guest:Yeah, don't touch my fucking hair.

01:09:43Guest:And I was just like, and he sort of got it.

01:09:47Guest:He was like, yeah.

01:09:48Guest:He was like, it just, it feels weird.

01:09:50Guest:And he's like, you just know that you're the only one in the room.

01:09:52Guest:And I'm like, that's my life.

01:09:55Marc:Right, he got it.

01:09:55Marc:But like, you know, it's a rare event.

01:09:59Guest:Yeah, it was half an hour.

01:10:01Guest:And they had a UFC match with like two white people on the screen.

01:10:04Guest:I'm like, you're fine.

01:10:05Guest:There's two other white people.

01:10:06Marc:Doing what they do.

01:10:08Guest:Exactly.

01:10:10Marc:but yeah and so just being I could see that yeah it could be exhausting yeah it's funny about the hair thing like I like I had one of these moments like it's weird that like some little moments that you know kind of you know hurt your feelings in a moment but you know you remember them yeah but I was sort of happy how I handled it okay what did you do what happened

01:10:35Marc:There's this woman who was, you know, working at the comedy store.

01:10:39Marc:You know, she was not a comedian, a waitress.

01:10:41Marc:And she was intense and, like, you know, an artist.

01:10:44Marc:But she had shaved her head completely.

01:10:46Guest:Yeah, yeah.

01:10:46Marc:Like, it was drastic.

01:10:48Marc:And it was shiny.

01:10:49Guest:Whoa.

01:10:50Marc:And, like, you know, I saw her.

01:10:51Marc:And I don't really know her at all.

01:10:53Marc:Yeah.

01:10:53Marc:You know, but I see her at the club.

01:10:55Guest:Yeah.

01:10:55Marc:And I was like, you know, I wanted to put my hands on her head.

01:10:58Marc:Yeah.

01:10:59Marc:But no, but I said, can I touch your head?

01:11:02Marc:And she's like, no.

01:11:04Marc:And I'm like...

01:11:04Marc:Okay.

01:11:05Guest:Good for her.

01:11:06Marc:But in that moment, I'm like, oh, but it's like, of course, I'm glad I asked.

01:11:11Guest:Yeah.

01:11:12Guest:If you hadn't, you just like fucking palmed her head like a basketball.

01:11:16Marc:But people do that.

01:11:17Marc:Yes.

01:11:17Marc:Because they're like, oh, but like, you know, and I think sometimes a lot of this woke shit comes down to simply that respect of like, you know, is this okay?

01:11:26Marc:Yeah.

01:11:27Marc:Right?

01:11:28Marc:Yeah.

01:11:29Guest:Yeah.

01:11:30Guest:Just don't touch my hair.

01:11:31Marc:I'm not gonna.

01:11:32Marc:Yeah.

01:11:34Marc:I didn't think I should.

01:11:38Guest:I appreciate it, yeah.

01:11:39Marc:So when's the new season start?

01:11:42Guest:T-Dub Queens?

01:11:43Marc:Yeah.

01:11:43Guest:It's already out.

01:11:45Marc:It is?

01:11:45Marc:We already did it?

01:11:46Guest:Yeah.

01:11:47Marc:It's on?

01:11:49Marc:The whole thing's on?

01:11:50Marc:Don't fucking know.

01:11:50Marc:There's a whole generation of things happening that I just don't know or understand.

01:11:54Guest:How did you hear of me, though?

01:11:56Marc:I knew of you from comedy, and then I knew the book, and then I knew the podcast.

01:11:59Guest:Oh, okay.

01:12:00Marc:Cool.

01:12:00Marc:Yeah.

01:12:01Guest:Nice.

01:12:01Guest:I never know who- I don't either.

01:12:03Guest:Knows who I am.

01:12:04Marc:Me neither.

01:12:05Marc:You know what I mean?

01:12:06Marc:Yeah.

01:12:06Marc:Most people don't know who I am.

01:12:08Guest:Same.

01:12:09Marc:Yeah.

01:12:10Guest:But people know who you are.

01:12:11Guest:I think this is a little faux humble moment you're having.

01:12:15Marc:I don't think so.

01:12:16Marc:If you think about it, because of the media universe we live in, in the big picture, I'm not Kevin Hart.

01:12:23Marc:So there is that weird zone.

01:12:25Marc:I got all these things out there.

01:12:26Marc:And I don't know what they're locking into, if they're locking into any of them.

01:12:30Marc:But I saw on Twitter today, people were like, I just found your podcast because I saw you on The Simpsons.

01:12:36Marc:And this is 10 years in.

01:12:38Marc:So it's not the way it used to be.

01:12:41Marc:I got a hit show, everyone's going to know who I am.

01:12:43Marc:You really don't.

01:12:43Marc:So you walk around sort of, when people are looking at you, there's that moment where you're like, yeah, it's me.

01:12:48Marc:And then you realize, they're not looking at you like that.

01:12:51Marc:Do you have that?

01:12:52Guest:I've had that.

01:12:54Guest:We went to, I did like a girls weekend for a birthday in Vegas for my birthday.

01:13:02Guest:We're all hanging out at the pool.

01:13:04Guest:Yeah.

01:13:04Guest:And this guy came over and he like, he came like, he looked like he knew who I was.

01:13:10Guest:Like fully, like he was going to like say something nice.

01:13:14Guest:And then he just came over to be like, oh, we're closing the pool in 10 minutes.

01:13:17Guest:I need you guys to get out of here.

01:13:19Guest:And I was like, oh.

01:13:21Guest:You have no idea who the fuck I am.

01:13:24Guest:Oh, yeah, right.

01:13:25Guest:Yeah.

01:13:26Guest:I was like, cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo, cuckoo.

01:13:28Guest:Yeah.

01:13:28Guest:Two Dump Queens.

01:13:29Guest:It's still.

01:13:29Guest:Yeah.

01:13:30Guest:Okay.

01:13:30Guest:Got it.

01:13:31Marc:People love that show.

01:13:32Marc:They love the podcast.

01:13:33Marc:Yeah.

01:13:33Marc:Was it hard to stop that?

01:13:35Marc:The podcast?

01:13:35Guest:It wasn't hard because I never like to do anything forever.

01:13:41Marc:I know, but don't you feel like was there an issue of like like on some level it like it reached it probably reached a whole.

01:13:49Marc:There's probably a good chunk of the people that listen to the podcast that don't have HBO maybe or don't watch HBO or like like you had to really say to that audience, go get HBO.

01:14:00Guest:Yeah, which, yeah, fucking helped me buy my house.

01:14:04Marc:They did.

01:14:05Guest:Yeah, you guys helped me buy my apartment in New York.

01:14:07Guest:But I just really, Justin and I were just getting so busy, and I was just kind of like, I don't like to half-ass anything.

01:14:14Marc:Oh, yeah, and when you're doing it, when it's your job, it's your job, man.

01:14:18Guest:Yeah.

01:14:18Marc:I'm here on a Sunday talking to you.

01:14:20Marc:I know.

01:14:21Guest:And I'm sure you would rather be just relaxing on a Sunday.

01:14:24Marc:It doesn't happen.

01:14:25Marc:Yeah.

01:14:26No.

01:14:26Marc:I got to record every Sunday.

01:14:28Marc:It's just because I was shooting.

01:14:29Marc:I have to do the interviews.

01:14:31Marc:I don't mind.

01:14:32Marc:I don't have a sense of days or weeks.

01:14:35Marc:I don't know.

01:14:36Guest:Yeah, but we just got to a place.

01:14:38Guest:And I know for me personally, I just am like, if I can't do it, I'd just rather just kill it and move on.

01:14:43Marc:So, all right.

01:14:45Marc:Anything else bothering you?

01:14:46Marc:How do we handle this?

01:14:47Marc:All right.

01:14:48Guest:What, the interview?

01:14:49Guest:I think it was great.

01:14:50Guest:I don't know if I said enough.

01:14:52Marc:About what?

01:14:53Guest:I don't know if anyone knows any more about me than beforehand.

01:14:57Marc:What do you think's missing exactly?

01:14:59Marc:Is there a part of you that we're not discussing?

01:15:02Guest:No, I'm really not.

01:15:04Guest:I will say I'm not that interesting.

01:15:05Guest:I think you are.

01:15:07Guest:Oh, thank you.

01:15:09Marc:Yeah, I think it's been a good journey.

01:15:10Marc:You're very smart, and you're funny, and your writing's good.

01:15:15Marc:But I guess let's see if I have any more questions that maybe I'm filtering because of what we've identified as my fear of saying.

01:15:23Guest:Yeah, ask me something that you think you are scared to ask me.

01:15:27Marc:I'm not really scared.

01:15:29Marc:Do you think there are people that really don't see color lines?

01:15:33Marc:No.

01:15:34Marc:Yeah.

01:15:34Marc:I don't either.

01:15:35Guest:That's the craziest thing that's ever been said.

01:15:38Marc:What I just said?

01:15:39Guest:No, no, no.

01:15:39Guest:When people are like, oh, I don't see color.

01:15:41Guest:I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about?

01:15:45Guest:Right?

01:15:45Guest:Of course you do.

01:15:46Marc:Of course you do.

01:15:48Marc:There might be a spectrum of how you judge that.

01:15:53Guest:Yeah.

01:15:53Marc:But unless you're like blind.

01:15:56Guest:Yeah.

01:15:56Marc:Yeah.

01:15:57Marc:Or you do see it.

01:15:58Marc:What you do with that initial information is the whole other thing.

01:16:02Guest:Exactly.

01:16:03Marc:Right.

01:16:03Marc:But that's sort of, I guess that's probably a white person invention.

01:16:07Guest:Yeah, of course.

01:16:08Guest:Of course.

01:16:09Guest:What's the Malcolm X who said it?

01:16:12Marc:I don't see color light.

01:16:14Marc:These white people are just people.

01:16:19Guest:Yeah, man.

01:16:19Guest:It is just like, yeah, I just want to be able to do the comedy that I want to do.

01:16:26Guest:have people in the room who are just different from me.

01:16:30Guest:Like, that's my favorite thing is watching a comic who is so, like, I love watching Tic Notaro.

01:16:36Guest:I will never be like her.

01:16:37Guest:I will never tell Kami like her.

01:16:39Guest:And I love that.

01:16:40Guest:I love watching people who are so different from me.

01:16:43Marc:Yeah, she's like her own time zone.

01:16:44Marc:It's great.

01:16:45Marc:I've known her forever.

01:16:46Marc:And it's just like every time you're around her, you're like,

01:16:47Marc:Am I fitting in reality right now?

01:16:49Guest:Yeah.

01:16:50Guest:And it's so great.

01:16:51Guest:I love that.

01:16:52Guest:I think there's so many people want they just want to see themselves.

01:16:56Guest:And I'm always like, I want to see people who are different from me.

01:16:59Marc:Yeah, me too.

01:17:00Marc:I like a good story.

01:17:01Marc:Yeah.

01:17:02Marc:I like I have a sort of I have a secret love of goofy shit.

01:17:07Guest:Yeah.

01:17:08Marc:Like what?

01:17:09Marc:I like people who are naturally physically funny.

01:17:11Marc:oh yeah yeah yeah yeah and and they know how to really work it like to me that's a fascinating innate ability yeah of people that are just like either uncomfortable or even somebody like kevin james who is just sort of like he's just worked up and every part of him like he just moves and he's funny like guy people who can just like physically just be funny i love that

01:17:34Marc:Yeah, because I'm such a heady dude.

01:17:36Marc:And I can be physically funny, but some guys, it's just so natural.

01:17:40Marc:And I always am impressed with that.

01:17:43Marc:Yeah.

01:17:44Marc:Who do you like, the other than Tig?

01:17:46Guest:I love watching Baron Vaughn.

01:17:49Guest:He's something.

01:17:49Marc:I think he's great.

01:17:50Marc:I interviewed him.

01:17:51Marc:I was hard on him for a long time.

01:17:53Guest:Why?

01:17:55Marc:Wow.

01:17:56Marc:I think we talked about it on the podcast.

01:17:58Guest:Okay.

01:17:59Guest:I didn't hear that episode.

01:18:00Marc:I'm sorry.

01:18:00Marc:And he knew it, too.

01:18:01Marc:Yeah.

01:18:03Marc:He knew that I had sort of put him in the actor who wants to be comic category.

01:18:07Guest:Oh, no.

01:18:09Guest:Come on.

01:18:10Guest:That's not him.

01:18:11Marc:No, I know.

01:18:12Marc:He turned me around.

01:18:13Marc:He was great on your show.

01:18:15Marc:He's very good with voices.

01:18:17Marc:He's pretty physically funny.

01:18:18Guest:Yeah, I love him.

01:18:19Guest:I love Michelle Boutot.

01:18:23Marc:I haven't seen her in so long.

01:18:25Marc:She's so great.

01:18:26Marc:I remember when she was like, I think the first time I met her, she was like, it must have been like a long time ago.

01:18:31Marc:She's been around for a while.

01:18:32Guest:Yeah.

01:18:33Marc:Right?

01:18:33Guest:Yeah, she's awesome.

01:18:35Guest:Yeah.

01:18:35Guest:She always, like we just like FaceTime wearing zit cream and she just fucking kills me.

01:18:43Guest:I'll just be like screaming in my apartment with laughter.

01:18:46Guest:I'm fully obsessed with Ali Wong and I tell her all the time.

01:18:50Guest:Oh yeah, she's great.

01:18:50Guest:I feel like sometimes I talk to her like,

01:18:53Guest:a fan like I'm always like you're just so great and I love you and I rewatch this but I'm like we used to write together but um she's so like she's so wonderful you wrote together where soon when she lived in New York we would just like meet up at like a coffee shop in Soho and like work on bits and then she would like go do her show and I go do my and it was just like

01:19:11Guest:She's so great.

01:19:12Marc:You guys are workers.

01:19:13Marc:Yeah.

01:19:13Marc:Oh, she's a worker.

01:19:14Guest:I'm a worker.

01:19:15Guest:I'm a grinder.

01:19:16Guest:I always have people say no.

01:19:18Guest:Like, that's part of the reason why I started to do Queens is because I couldn't get a writing job.

01:19:23Guest:No one would hire me for warm up.

01:19:25Guest:No one was interested in me at all.

01:19:27Guest:And I was like, I was going to do my own thing over here.

01:19:29Marc:Yeah.

01:19:30Marc:I've been around so long, though, you just sort of see people's process and how they're going, and then you wonder, are they going to evolve out of that?

01:19:38Marc:Yeah.

01:19:38Marc:Because there's sort of steps to people coming into themselves.

01:19:42Marc:Yeah.

01:19:43Marc:You just sort of wonder, is that one going to keep turning, or is that going to stay there?

01:19:48Guest:Yeah, it's cool to watch someone find their voice.

01:19:50Guest:And I think it's amazing for a long time.

01:19:52Guest:It took me a while to find my voice.

01:19:53Guest:And then I think a lot of it was I just had to get confidence.

01:19:57Marc:Oh, yeah.

01:19:58Marc:It took me like 25 years, 30 years.

01:20:00Marc:I'm serious.

01:20:03Guest:You had your voice way before then.

01:20:06Marc:No, it was angrier and it was defensive.

01:20:08Guest:It was angrier, yes.

01:20:09Marc:And at some point, once people started to appreciate what I did, I can walk on a stage now fearless, especially if it's my people.

01:20:19Marc:But even more, it's sort of just still starting to happen in a weird way.

01:20:23Marc:Because I think a lot of the job for a lot of years is just pretending not to be afraid until you can really.

01:20:30Marc:But to walk up and really be fearless, I mean, that's an amazing moment.

01:20:34Marc:And it didn't happen to me for years.

01:20:36Guest:yeah yeah i think i'm i think i'm almost there i just really so when a lot of night we did our stand-up tour in 2017 we just like co-headlined together because i was going to quit stand-up like i was like i'll just do like two dope queens thinking i'll just be a writer but i i don't want to i don't know if i want to do stand-up anymore and then i went and i did it and i was like oh i'm good at this and i think i was so hung up on

01:21:03Guest:I don't know if I necessarily do stand-up the way that certain comics, you know what I mean?

01:21:10Guest:So I was like, oh, am I not good because I don't do it the way that certain white guys do it.

01:21:13Guest:And then it had to be like, you don't have to do it that way.

01:21:16Guest:It can sort of kind of look any way that it wants as long as it's representing you.

01:21:21Marc:Believe me, I still do that to myself.

01:21:23Marc:How come I don't do it like certain white guys do it?

01:21:28Marc:But it's okay.

01:21:30Marc:When you see somebody who kills all the time or who has big success and they're different than you primarily, it usually comes down to like, they write jokes.

01:21:39Guest:Yeah.

01:21:43Marc:Why can't I write jokes?

01:21:44Guest:Yeah.

01:21:45Marc:And like after a certain point, it's like, you got to be like, this is my process.

01:21:48Marc:You know, I do all right with it.

01:21:50Marc:It's not, maybe it's not the most disciplined or the best way to go about it, but it's what works for me.

01:21:56Marc:And after you've been doing something like for 30 years, you're like, what are you going to sit down and write jokes?

01:22:01Marc:Yeah.

01:22:01Guest:Yeah, I love listening to Jerry Seinfeld talk about the process.

01:22:05Guest:I'm also like, I'm not going to do that.

01:22:08Guest:I'm not doing that.

01:22:09Marc:I have to wait until something hits me on stage.

01:22:12Marc:But that's like some sort of compulsive thing.

01:22:15Marc:I mean, writing jokes is such a... It's a beautiful thing, and I love good jokes, but it's a real controlly thing.

01:22:21Marc:Where if you're up there and you've got an idea that you know is funny enough to get the laughs, and you're not sure where it's going to go, and that thing out of nowhere...

01:22:29Marc:just comes in.

01:22:30Marc:Yeah.

01:22:30Marc:You know, because in that moment you're like, I got it.

01:22:33Marc:You know, you want to be funny in that moment.

01:22:34Marc:And then all of a sudden you got your tag, but you don't know where it came from.

01:22:37Guest:Yeah.

01:22:38Marc:You know, it came out of you, but it came out of you in a moment, you know, that, you know, you had no control over.

01:22:43Marc:It's the best.

01:22:44Marc:That's the best.

01:22:44Guest:I loved, I loved doing it that way.

01:22:46Guest:And I was for a long time.

01:22:47Guest:I was like, well, maybe I'm not like a real standup because I don't sit down and write like two hours a day.

01:22:53Guest:And then I had to be like,

01:22:56Marc:No.

01:22:56Guest:That's not the way I think.

01:22:57Guest:That's not the way I talk.

01:22:58Marc:Yeah.

01:22:59Marc:I am in no position to judge how people approach, you know, what they do on stage.

01:23:05Marc:And really, you know, stand-up comedy as a job, you know, is a thing that has a history and it is what it is.

01:23:11Marc:But, you know, in all honesty, there have been, from the beginning of modern stand-up,

01:23:17Marc:There have been plenty of storytellers.

01:23:18Marc:There have been plenty of people that work in different ways.

01:23:20Marc:How it became this sort of Seinfeldian or this idea.

01:23:26Marc:There have always been shtick guys and joke guys, but there's also been long form dudes as far back as the 50s.

01:23:32Marc:Even if you listen to Lenny Bruce, who people don't really listen to.

01:23:36Guest:But they reference him, but they don't listen to him.

01:23:38Marc:Yeah, but I mean, it was hit or miss, man.

01:23:40Marc:And it was long form and odd and esoteric.

01:23:44Marc:And it's just at some point, I accepted that it's a very broad trip.

01:23:48Marc:And there's going to be guys that are like, that's not real stand-up.

01:23:52Marc:It's like, eh, it is, though.

01:23:54Marc:I'm up there by myself getting laughs.

01:23:56Marc:Fuck off.

01:23:56Guest:Yeah, that's stand-up.

01:23:57Marc:Yeah.

01:23:58Marc:And the great thing about now, it's like, hey, I don't have to be for everybody.

01:24:03Marc:I can be for my people.

01:24:04Marc:Fuck off.

01:24:05Marc:You know what I mean?

01:24:06Guest:I think it's like you have to sort of talk to people who are quote unquote different from you.

01:24:16Marc:I don't feel different from you that much.

01:24:18Guest:But that's what I'm saying.

01:24:20Guest:On the drive here, I was a little nervous.

01:24:21Guest:I was like, I've listened to the podcast.

01:24:23Guest:I'm like, I just don't know how we're going to relate.

01:24:26Guest:And then I got here and I'm like, oh, it's fucking fine.

01:24:29Yeah.

01:24:29Guest:We're talking about collagen powder.

01:24:31Guest:We're the same.

01:24:32Guest:Do you know what I mean?

01:24:33Guest:Yeah, I do that with every interview.

01:24:35Marc:Every interview I have, I'm like, oh, boy.

01:24:38Guest:Yeah, and then you're like, oh, we're just fucking people.

01:24:41Guest:It's fine.

01:24:42Marc:Well, my big, it's like when you talked about preparing for Gloria Steinem, I've done that before with certain people.

01:24:51Marc:Because you want to afford them the respect they deserve for who they are if they are that type of person.

01:24:58Marc:You want to respect everybody, but there are some people that sort of like, I got some ground to cover.

01:25:02Marc:Some shit has to be talked about.

01:25:04Guest:Yeah.

01:25:04Guest:When I interviewed Michelle Obama, I prepped for two and a half days.

01:25:08Marc:Right.

01:25:08Marc:And did it, what paid off from that process?

01:25:11Marc:All of it?

01:25:12Marc:Or did you, were you sort of like, I didn't have, this was easier than I thought.

01:25:15Guest:It was, it was, what I think it did was there was no way that I was going to fuck it up.

01:25:22Guest:Because I was so prepared.

01:25:25Guest:Even if her and I didn't hit it off, I was like, there's no way this is not going to be good because I know this woman in her book, Inside Out.

01:25:31Guest:And so to me, it reinforced... I think sometimes people who are slackers and they're around someone who works really hard, they're always like, oh, calm down.

01:25:40Guest:You're preparing too much.

01:25:42Guest:And it made me go, no, bitch, you should prepare like that for everybody.

01:25:46Guest:Treat everybody like they're Michelle Obama.

01:25:48Marc:Yeah, I think so.

01:25:49Marc:But sometimes...

01:25:51Marc:I think the liability to that is also the same as the joke writing predicament.

01:25:57Marc:Yeah.

01:25:58Marc:Is that, you know, if you already know the answer you're going to get, then you know the question and you know what the answer to the question is, you know, it'll lead the thing in a certain way.

01:26:08Marc:And you might deny yourself like some organic moments of like, why are we just talking?

01:26:14Marc:Like, you know, like when I interviewed Barack Obama,

01:26:17Marc:You know, I had to prepare because I had an hour.

01:26:20Marc:Yeah.

01:26:20Marc:You know, it wasn't going to be a fundamentally political interview.

01:26:24Marc:And like I was jammed up with that shit.

01:26:26Guest:Yeah.

01:26:27Marc:And he walks in and starts just busting my balls.

01:26:30Marc:It's great.

01:26:30Marc:Yeah.

01:26:30Marc:And I was like, oh, OK.

01:26:32Guest:Yeah.

01:26:33Marc:Here we go.

01:26:34Marc:Yeah.

01:26:34Marc:And it worked out because, you know, you make yourself available for that.

01:26:38Marc:But I don't think it's bad to have all that shit in there.

01:26:41Guest:Yeah, and then, you know, like, I think, like, I really enjoy this.

01:26:44Guest:I'm like, we're just hanging out.

01:26:45Marc:Yeah.

01:26:46Guest:And it's not like, how did Two Dope Queens get started?

01:26:49Guest:And it's like, no one cares.

01:26:50Guest:No one cares how it got started.

01:26:52Marc:Yeah, it's more, you know, people go watch it.

01:26:53Marc:Yeah.

01:26:55Marc:Yeah.

01:26:56Marc:If I'm doing that, it's, like, not going well.

01:26:58Guest:Yeah.

01:26:59Guest:So it's good that we're just sort of able to, like, just talk about, I don't hang out with a lot of 55-year-old white guys.

01:27:06Guest:Yeah.

01:27:07Guest:So I'm like, this is great.

01:27:09Guest:I've made contact.

01:27:10Guest:Yeah.

01:27:10Marc:We did it.

01:27:11Marc:Yeah.

01:27:11Marc:We solved all the problems.

01:27:15Guest:We figured it out, you guys.

01:27:16Marc:Oh, thank God.

01:27:17Marc:I'm glad you all could witness that.

01:27:19Marc:Thanks for doing it.

01:27:20Guest:That was fun.

01:27:21Guest:Thank you so much.

01:27:27Marc:That was a good chat.

01:27:29Marc:That was fun.

01:27:30Marc:It sounds good in here.

01:27:31Marc:I keep noticing that.

01:27:32Marc:Maybe it's these new headphones.

01:27:33Marc:I don't know.

01:27:34Marc:But, yeah, go to my tour page, wtfpod.com slash tour for those England dates that are coming up, the UK dates.

01:27:48Marc:I'll just go through all the dates.

01:27:50Marc:Can I?

01:27:51Marc:Would you?

01:27:51Marc:Let me.

01:27:52Marc:April 4th at the Lowry in Salford, England.

01:27:55Marc:I think that might be sold out.

01:27:57Marc:Royal Festival Hall in London, England, April 6th.

01:28:00Marc:There are definitely tickets for that.

01:28:02Marc:The Rep Theater in Birmingham, England, April 8th.

01:28:04Marc:There are tickets.

01:28:05Marc:Vicar Street in Ireland, April 11th.

01:28:08Marc:Dublin.

01:28:09Marc:Some tickets left.

01:28:11Marc:April 18th, 19th, and 20th at the American Comedy Company in San Diego.

01:28:16Marc:Comedy Club on State, May 23rd, 24th, and 25th in Madison, Wisconsin.

01:28:21Marc:Vermont Comedy Club, June 6th, 7th, and 8th in Burlington, Vermont.

01:28:24Marc:Those are sold out.

01:28:26Marc:Helium in St.

01:28:27Marc:Louis, June 13th, June 14th, and June 15th.

01:28:30Marc:I think there's tickets for that.

01:28:32Marc:And the Good Nights Comedy Club in Raleigh, North Carolina, has been shifted because of an engagement I have to do.

01:28:39Marc:So Raleigh, North Carolina, is now August 1, 2, and 3, if there's still a world.

01:28:47Marc:Oh, I don't want to be negative at the end there.

01:28:49Marc:I think I've got my guitar hooked up, so now I will play for you.

01:28:53Marc:Here's some guitar meditative.

01:28:58Thank you.

01:29:29guitar solo

01:29:56Marc:Boomer lives!