Ep. 597: "The Referee of Negativity"
Recording.
Recording.
Hi, John.
Fine.
Okay, no, that's fine.
Recording.
You want to edit this shit?
Hello?
I'll hand it over.
You can just open up GarageBand and try and get it clean open.
I'm going to put a lot of reverb on it.
We can record in the bathroom.
I have done it, as you know.
Well, you know, U2, they got a whole, like, castle, you know, for that purpose, I think.
Huh?
Well, you know, when they did the, don't you remember, like, the Unforgettable Fire?
Didn't Brian Eno rent a castle or something?
Oh, right, just for the reverb.
Yeah, you gotta go down the corridor, lurking in the corridors.
You know the famous story where the engineer was trying to put microphones on John Bonham's drums and he kept throwing his dicks at him?
Ha!
No, I don't think I've heard that.
Because he didn't want the drums close-miked.
He wanted the mics all put far away from the drums for the reverb.
Right, that reverberation that was so big.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
He was like, get those mics away from my drums.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm always I would.
Well, I've just in every in every kind of situation like that.
I've been pretty.
I don't know.
You don't like to be too assertive with the engineer, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, well, I don't know.
I don't know.
I was thinking about that.
I heard a song the other day.
What did I hear?
I heard a pop song.
Oh, you know what it was?
I heard, like, I was listening.
It doesn't matter.
But I heard a song from approximately the mid-90s, and it had what I would describe as a Dr. Dre keyboard on it.
Uh-huh.
Beep, beep.
So it's got, well, it's squeaky, but the main thing I think of is that, like, I don't know, on my old Casio, you call it portamento.
Like, where it's like, you know what I mean, kind of thing?
Yes, I do.
Now, do I remember correctly that on your record, you have a credit for Dr. Dre keyboard on maybe Scent of Lime?
Yeah.
Because I was thinking about that.
I was thinking about how you had a credit.
I feel like you had a credit for Dr. Dre keyboard.
I believe.
That's where I got the term.
I believe that's correct.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
There's something so distinctive about everything he did.
Oh, you know what it was?
You know what?
Okay.
Real quick.
There's this podcast I love called Hit Parade.
And it's about chart history, you know, billboard chart history.
And anyways, they're talking about Max Martin.
Oh,
I was playing this for my lady friend because we were talking about the new Taylor Swift album and I have my own feelings about it.
But I was like, you know, because Max Martin, so we listened to the Max Martin episode, the Swedish production episode.
We were talking about how you wouldn't have had boy bands probably if it hadn't been for the Spice Girls, you know, kicking down the girl with the girl power door.
Yeah.
And they had that one song, I'm, see if you remember this song, giving you everything, all the joy.
Oh yeah, sure.
Now think about that.
Would you describe that as a Dr. Dre keyboard?
Isn't there like a Dr. Dre keyboard on there?
Hmm.
yes yes yes you probably weren't listening to a lot of spice girls then well i was a big fan of ginger spice like way more of a fan of ginger spice than any other favorite singer spice but singing singing wise right
Well, singing-wise, and maybe more than any other pop star of the era, probably Ginger Spice is right up there.
I always thought Sporty Spice was a really good singer.
You know, Sporty Spice is a very Merlin Mann-branded Spice, whereas I think Ginger Spice is more of a part of the Roderick-verse of Spice.
It's kind of like a form of Cool Britannia astrology.
Uh-huh.
Which, yeah, sure.
I bet in England there's like, what spice are you?
And you could tell so much about a person, like, who's your spice?
Oh, exactly.
You take like a personality quiz and find out.
Exactly.
Yes.
Yes.
Who's my spice?
Who's your spice?
Yeah.
Who's my spice?
My little one is finding in all of these, because she's still reading all these series of books where it's like there's supernatural powers or there's fantasy in them and she's really starting to pull out
recognize all the tropes of these genres and she's like, oh my God, another one of these or another one of those.
But she's very much, she and her friends still very much identify like, which one are you?
Are you the this or are you the that?
I bet you can figure out which, I haven't watched the film yet, but you can figure out which K-pop demon hunter you are.
I know people enjoy that.
As soon as the boy K-pop Demon Hunters came on the screen, I was immediately like, well, I'm that one, clearly.
And, you know, like all of your friends, you just find your friends in the K-pop Demon Hunters or the demons.
They were the demons.
I'm sorry.
Well, they were the demons all along.
Spoilers.
I want to know your thoughts on the new Taylor Swift record.
Nope.
Why is this a controversial?
Oh, I'm sure.
I mean, it's fine.
Why on the internet is it controversial?
She's an amazing artist.
People, you know, people have strong feelings about things.
I guess so.
I'll tell you what I said.
My lady and I, we were going overseas to go see a show in Oakland.
And so we were listening to stuff and we were talking about Taylor Swift and I was talking about Max Martin.
I was saying, you may not even be aware because you're not a dork.
You may not know that Max Martin is how we got stuff like Since You've Been Gone by, you know, Kelly Clarkson.
He's from the studio.
Since you've been gone.
Yeah.
Which is like Max Martin going like, you know, Maps is a really good song, but it needs a popular chorus.
So he basically rewrote Maps as, you know, I love you like I love you, but with a more kicking chorus.
And then it's got that great bridge, too.
Anyway, Max Martin, here's the thing I really like.
what, oh man, there's absolutely nothing good that can come of this.
Oh, don't talk about Taylor Swift.
No, here's the problem.
I don't like talking negatively about things for a variety of reasons.
First, I'm happy to be the only person who's not constantly giving you negative one in your world, giving negative responses to everything.
I don't think we need more of that in the world.
But the bigger personal problem, I'm just being honest,
is that i don't want people to find common cause with me saying this is not my favorite taylor swift album and turn it into like a thing right because now now i become the referee of negativity right do you know what i'm talking about i do you know i don't know if i've ever told you this but when it's just music john we can all just like what we like it's okay
When they came to us and said, when they came to Ken Jennings and said they wanted to do a podcast and he was like, well, I want to do it with John.
And they were like, all right, pitch us a podcast.
The idea we came up with.
was a show called the worst where every week we found the worst example of a shampoo or the worst uh south american dictator or the worst you know it's basically the omnibus except i come i can completely i see the appeal of that immediately because then you can also get to the same way you debate why something is the is the best you can make your case for why pinochet is the worst
This was the premise.
And we were so thrilled with it.
I don't think Pinochet is the worst, personally.
No, no, no.
There's worse than Pinochet.
But see, that could be interpreted as positive remarks on Pinochet.
So we were all excited about it.
We took it to Chuck over there at HowStuffWorks.
And he was like, great idea.
And he took it to iHeartMedia.
And they were so psyched.
and so we got on a plane we were flying down to atlanta to record the first episodes of the worst at the at the how stuff works headquarters in atlanta and we're on the plane and we're sitting you know we're sitting there uh like with our folding tables down like writing out all the ideas the show ideas for the worst and
And we're going back and forth, back and forth, and we kind of like, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop.
And we sort of, at the same moment, we're like, God, this show's kind of a drag.
Like, the worst of everything.
Who looks forward to somebody just ragging on Bon Jovi for an hour or something?
Yeah, that's what it would be, just like this guy's the worst.
Somebody out there will say, me, I hate Bon Jovi, when I would say, I love you so much, but you're not in my target audience.
I'm not.
It's like that time I told my mom that Alan and I were going to start a band called Free Beer, which would theoretically trick people into coming to our punk rock show.
And my mom said something really profound, which was like, are you sure that's the kind of people that you'd like to attract to see your band?
And in addition to the riotous implications of being a Central Florida band misadvertising free alcohol, she was absolutely right.
Like, what audience do you build being a band called Free Beer?
Well, people who aren't smart enough to figure out that you just tricked them and now they hate you.
I don't think they're going to buy your 7-inch.
And that was on the flight.
We were like, what was the feeling?
Well, you just feel like, oh, this is a drag.
Well, yeah, everything about it.
Like, why would every week we want to subject ourselves to going and finding the worst something like that just feels like at the very core level, waking up in the morning and saying, I do a show called The Worst.
Me and another middle-aged man talk about stuff that other people like that we think is terrible.
It's like just putting yourself in a, you're just building a castle around yourself that you don't want to live in.
And in the next hour, we were like, okay, then what show is it?
What's it called?
And we start throwing ideas around.
And on the flight, we're like, okay, let's call it the Omnibus Project.
Let's have it be about the... And I mean, you know, the premise still is like there's going to be an apocalypse and we're going to have to know all this stuff.
But it became a thing of like, let's find the greatest stuff, not the worst stuff.
And when we landed and went to the headquarters and they were like, all right, they're ready to record the worst.
And this isn't an imitation of Chuck at all because he's great.
But, you know, the I heart.
Well, you told them it's what you want to do.
So they're going to be, hey, it's great.
Let's go do the thing you want to do the worst.
And look, we've drawn up some, you know, some logos and we've got and we were like, oh, yeah, we decided that we want to not do that.
and they were crestfallen oh and we were like well but the omnibus concept is easy to understand for better for us the concept is that's exactly right yeah it's and you can see the logo with an exclamation point and a mr yuck face or whatever and uh and we're like no no this is going to be way better and you know there was somebody like what's omnibus mean we're like no no just you know it'll be cool and we recorded the first shows which were like defenestration and the and the african swallow or whatever
And they were like, okay, yeah, those are pretty good.
Those are pretty good.
Sounds like a butcher shop in Portland.
Defenestration in the Africa.
Yeah, it's got one of those with a fork on the logo, really simple, with the vertical line and the horizontal line.
Yeah, PNW.
But, yeah, for months afterwards, you know, some executive would be like, well, you know, the worst.
But, yeah, can you imagine?
And then every month there'd be somebody that's like, I heard you did a show about my product, my barbecue sauce that was my grandmother's recipe that I worked on my whole life.
Oh, man.
No good.
We were just kidding, man.
Yeah, no, right.
Yeah, so anyway.
I know what you mean when you say, I don't want to be the negative.
I think there's ways you can do that.
Just off the top of my head, a friend of mine named Anthony, who's a really... Actually, he's a really good writer.
And he had a podcast that I was on a couple times called Unjustly Maligned, which I think is such an amazing idea for a show, which is, as he says at the top of every episode, he brings somebody in to make their case for why something that almost everybody else...
I mean, reasonably saying, like, for example, in Anthony's case, like, if you really like, you know, dramatic heavy metal and goth, like, this is something everybody hates, but I like.
And so, like, you know what I mean?
But I love the idea, though, with that.
It was so fun to do.
I did a terrible job the one time I was on to actually defend something.
Ugh, really bad.
And wrong guy to go up against.
I was defending the Watchmen movie.
By What's-His-Name, which I think is a really good movie.
And it's very frustrating, completely understandably, to other people who are fans of the comic, which I'm a fan of the comic also.
I own more copies of different Watchmen comics than probably anything else that I have.
But I like it for what it is, which is it's a movie.
But I understand why people who grew up reading Alan Moore...
you know, in the 80s would be frustrated about it because it's, you know, because it's fun to be on the side of Alan Moore and go like, I hate everything you make out of my stuff.
That's my Alan Moore impersonation.
Oh, because he's against the movie, Alan Moore.
He takes his name off everything.
He took his name off V for Vendetta.
I mean, he's got his own thing going on and I respect that.
Before Bandetta was a good movie.
I like that movie.
But I understand why people would... So it's like walking into a room full of hornets or something, where it's like, who are you going to make happy by slagging something?
Well, I'm just going to make my case that I think there's something, some elements, the way Watchmen has done, that's... What's that guy's name?
Scott... Not Scott Snyder.
What's his name?
That guy, that director...
Zack Snyder.
Zack Snyder.
Zack Snyder.
I think there's elements of that that, like, I think the Justice League movie is like big, here we go, now I'm going to make more friends.
The guy just loves, ever since 300, the guy loves, like, CGI dust floating around and slow motion and blah, blah, blah.
And it's just all, it's just that in Watchmen, I think he did a, when the comedian's fighting the guy at the beginning of the movie, I think that's a really good scene.
anyways are you somebody let me yeah please let me let me ask you are you somebody that that when he watches a troubled movie a movie that has flaws that you're looking for good things like i used to do this with sean all the time we'd go to see a movie and i would go like oh i didn't like that movie and he'd say what do you mean and i would say well i just didn't understand why the main character was motivated to even you know go on this quest
And Sean would say, but what about that panning shot that went across the valley that where there was like sun flare and then all of a sudden it was then the sparkles.
And I was like, what are you talking about?
What does that have to do with anything?
Like the movie was, I'm talking about the main character's motivation.
Even if you agree that that was a cool shot, which it might have been, it's still in your way of looking at the movie.
It doesn't make up for the fact that the rest of it like made no sense.
yeah it didn't yeah right it doesn't redeem my uh my criticism but sean was seeing the movie so differently than i was and he could and he would say like but there were 10 amazing things about this movie like what about the set the way the sound worked in this he was looking at it at the way that you sound like liz lemon i like the programs
The fonts were really neat.
Yeah.
But, but I mean, but he really did watch the movie that way and somehow, uh, didn't even, it wouldn't have occurred to him to say like, well, what was the main character's motivation?
Right.
Right.
And so, I mean, when you're watching the Watchmen movie, are you, you're seeing these golden things and whatever the mistakes are, you see them, you recognize them, but you're like, that's not really what I'm.
Well, okay, like, the problem for me is, like, I have this feeling that, like, in some points... I like your question, though, which is, like, I have to be careful, for example, not to become too much of, like, a ratings queen, where I'm, like, only going to watch things that get good ratings, you know, on Letterboxd or wherever.
Because some of my favorite stuff...
is at least stuff that wasn't so much appreciated in its time, you know, sometimes what people will later call a cult classic.
Like, some of my favorite movies are movies that, like, reviewers I respect would give, you know, two stars or one star to, and there's a whole bunch of movies like that.
The thing is, for me, like, and this is another thing that makes me so broken in public, is I think it's miraculous.
that in particular, any movie gets put out.
It's such a dumb thing to say if you're just like a consumer who likes posting hot takes, but like it's a big team of people working on that.
Last night I started watching a show Madeline recommended.
It's created by, written by, and co-stars one of them, like somebody I really like a lot.
And I bounced after like 10 minutes.
Because why?
Because I just couldn't get with the writing.
And sometimes even as much as you love the people, you love the da-da-da-da, I watched that entire fucking terrible Ed Gein series on Netflix, which I can't even begin to describe how much I cannot recommend it to anybody.
Was it a documentary or was it a- No, it's part of Ryan Murphy that does all the like, you know, if you know Ryan Murphy, he does a bunch of stuff for Netflix, usually kind of like fun, like campy gay themed stuff.
There's nothing fun about Ed Gein.
Well, there's an ongoing series called Monster.
So season one was Jeffrey Dahmer.
He produces this.
Somebody else writes and mostly directs it.
But anyhow, it was gross.
It's really gross.
It is, even for somebody like me, I would go like, yeah, that was pretty, in addition to being, don't get your facts from this, like so many things.
But I kept watching it because it was really well done.
It wasn't good, but it was really well done.
This gets into this entire range of topics, any of which I would be happy to talk about now or in the future.
Madeline and I are constantly talking about B-plus TV.
There's all these shows out there that are just like your basic B-plus TV show.
And sometimes it really achieves escape velocity.
And most of the time you're like, yeah, that's fine.
I'll watch that.
For me, I just think about how I'm constantly saying stuff, much to my family's chagrin,
We just finished a rewatch of season two of The Leftovers last night.
And there's so many times where I'm like, look at this crane shot.
So Matt, played by Christopher Eccleston, climbs a ladder under the top of a taco truck.
And the shot turns into a crane shot that pulls out to reveal dozens or perhaps hundreds of people all walking in the same direction.
And somebody else would watch that and maybe think like, oh, I don't know if that's a very effective use of the guilty remnant here.
Whereas I watch it and I'm just like, can you imagine what is involved in getting that shot?
All the timing that went into getting all of those people.
Even something as dumb as a car drives by and a light reflects.
That's the stuff maybe I'm more Sean-like in that way.
But on the other hand, I am...
If it feels like they didn't know what they're doing from the beginning, if there's a lot of, as you know, Bob, explanations and stuff like that, I tend to get a little antsy with that stuff.
Sometimes I'll return, but often I don't.
Does that make sense?
Oh, absolutely.
It's the writing that always...
uh takes me out of the thing slaps me with a fish as soon as i as soon as i hear the writing writer's room do you know that do you know that phrase as you know bob no but is that like yes it's a really it's a good phrase if you go to like the tv tropes page look up uh as you know bob and it's it's just you'll know at the instant you probably already have a sense of what it is where somebody goes um captain
Captain, we need to escape from the aliens.
And the captain says to the engineer, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then the engineer says, but Captain, as you know, we only have enough energy to cycle up the, you know what I mean?
Yeah, for sure.
And once you can't unhear it, as you know, Bob, starts becoming like this thing you just hear all the time.
It happened last night in that show.
That's why I bounced.
Well, as you know, we've been wanting to have a baby together.
And so we've moved here.
And I was like, oh, jeez.
I mean, I know it's difficult, but like, I just rewatched Hot Fuzz, one of my all-time favorite movies last week.
And I don't know if you've ever seen it, but that entire opening explaining the background on Nicholas Angel that like leads us up to the moment where he's basically getting sent to the village.
You know, and all the different copies.
But like, it's to the tune of Goody Two Shoes by Adam Ant.
It's such a wonderful, forgive me, show don't tell, you know, sort of moment.
You know, at this point, you already know everything you need to know about Nicholas Angel to start understanding why he's kind of a fish out of water everywhere he goes.
And I just have so much aloha for people who remember that this is talking a lot.
I'm so sorry.
It's a visual medium.
And that's the way to tell the story.
Assume that people are going to actually watch it.
You know, if it's a TV show, you can do recaps and stuff like that.
But, like, you know, assume that people who are watching it are, you know, smart enough to put stuff together.
But then on the other hand, you get House of the Dragon.
And I can't tell...
heads from tails everybody's got the same name on that show i can't follow anybody and i've watched all of game of thrones it's my technically my most watchable tv show favorite but like do you know i'm talking about say something oh 100 i i i am in a position now where i cannot deny that i am watching prestige television anymore like i can no longer say i don't have a television
Right.
I can't say like, I don't even have a TV.
Although I don't, I don't spend every hour at my own house.
Right.
I'm at Ariella's house.
It's not part of your like daily stuff.
Right.
To go and watch TV.
Whereas it is for me.
It definitely is.
But it is because what we've, you know, Ariel and I have a relationship that is built on a lot of building blocks, right?
We have a marriage and every- You have more than one history.
We have a lot of history.
And one of the things that, and it's a small thing, but it's a big thing.
Is that she's someone who likes to fall asleep in front of the television.
It's comforting to her.
In the family room or in bed?
Yeah.
At the end of the day, when all is said and done.
She's not worried she's going to miss something.
No, no, no, no.
And she's happy to go back and watch it later.
But what she likes is the kid is in bed, the dishes are done, and she's worked hard all day.
She's got a hard job where she works.
She wants to sit in front of the television with a bowl of popcorn and then fall asleep.
The television is this... And she likes it.
The TV on loud...
but she doesn't want to fall asleep in front of the television alone.
And this is a small and strange little thing to say, but that is a, it's very real.
It's very real.
So I am the thing.
I'm the element that is bigger than a cat.
That is in the room so that she can feel safe and warm.
Are you watching in companionable silence or are you talking about what's happening while it's happening?
Well, you know, because I'm somebody as I watch a thing.
I'm a talker.
See, I know.
And when we used to watch TV together, we would come to your house and you'd be like, okay, John, I've got 74 things that I need to show you.
I'm so sorry.
No, it's great.
You know, just so you know, Megan is played by Liv Tyler.
Liv Tyler is sort of watching the leftovers.
And I'm like, and you might remember Liv Tyler because she was also in that thing you do.
And also she played one of those fucking elves in that Tolkien movie.
You introduced the Longwinners to so much stuff.
right i mean we never even would have known about three quarters of this stuff and i think a lot of the a lot of the stuff you showed us like the guys went off and and they became their favorite media let a thousand flowers bloom you know what i'm saying but you would you would often pause the show and then you'd be like now listen and you'd need you fill in the backstory let me explain why this is funny
But like I keep the remote control at our house.
You're the couch commander.
I have to be because Ari and Marla will sit next to each other and then they'll just start chatting about the show and speculating.
Yeah.
And I will, I'll let it go for a little, but then I'm like, pause.
All right.
Are we talking about the show?
Let's talk about the show.
And they're like, no, no, no, keep playing it.
And I'm like, well, we're talking about a thing that happened already.
So let's talk about it so that we don't talk over the stuff that's happening now.
Oh, okay.
And we'll talk about whatever they were talking about.
Sometimes you sometimes get the feeling, though, the tickle that, like, you gotta, because you don't want to be a dick about it, but it's like, is this going to be something that goes on for a couple seconds, or is this going to turn into a thing that's going to make us miss what's going on here?
Yeah, well, and especially if it's like, what was he, why did he even say that?
And I'm like, ugh.
Because his father— You're watching the same show I am.
I'm like, listen, Bob, because his father was the—didn't you catch the whole thing where it was the guy with the umbrella?
Yeah, and if you're not watching, you won't notice stuff like there's something happening in the background that you're supposed to pick up on that's not in the subtitle.
Yeah, yeah.
And we're going through the Wes Andersons now.
We're watching all the Wes Andersons.
And, of course, for those of us who have watched all the West Andersons enough times that we know all the paintings on the walls, and then we're watching it with somebody that doesn't, they're like, who is this again?
And I'm like, pause.
Why does that boy have an apple?
That's kind of my favorite.
So let's go back.
You'll notice there's a light switch on the wall.
And so I don't want to be that.
If you've been paying attention, you'd know Margot had a fake finger the whole time.
Mark had a big finger the whole time.
What do you mean?
She was smoking in the bathtub and you missed it because you were talking about things.
Yeah.
So I'm that dad.
But with Ari, she picks the prestige television show that du jour...
That is, I guess on the, I don't know where she finds this stuff.
It's on the media that she consumes.
Like, oh, are you not watching HBO, Netflix, that kind of stuff?
Yeah.
And she's somebody that has subscribed to all the things.
She's the Jonathan Colton of the family.
That's just like, well, I have a subscription to everything.
So I never miss anything.
And so what she does is she says, oh, let's watch this.
And we sit down and we start watching and then she's asleep.
And then I'm... And you're stuck watching whatever that thing is that you just kind of like, all right, sure, I'll follow.
Because my real job is to be there.
Yes.
Right?
That is very important to realize.
Yes.
And it's not... That's your role in the movie.
And she actually doesn't want me there to talk about the show tomorrow.
She's not like, oh, tell me about what happened in Slow Horses.
She's just like, just be there.
She just wants to feel another heartbeat, I think, in the room.
But then I'm alone with the television.
And during the pandemic, because she's got this downstairs, you know, during the pandemic, I went and I found some television that I wouldn't have bought for myself in a thousand.
It's a television you could live in, you know, like this.
Because television is cheap now.
You're stuck at home.
What are you going to do?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Massive television.
So I bought her this TV and I bought her one of those sound bars that makes everything go like.
Yeah.
And I'm like, here, you know, I got you this thing.
but now it's me and this thing me and this like giant uh that's like completely sensory overloading and it and i'm and i'm sitting in front of these tv shows i never would have chosen
And so I am, I'm having my version of a Merlin Mann experience where I'm like, okay, I'm watching this.
So what am I watching this for?
And what am I getting out of this?
Like I'm trying to absorb and I hear the writers and I'm like, no, get out of my head, you dumb asses.
And then I see this beautiful shot and I'm like, okay, I can...
This happens a lot with those, a lot of Apple TV stuff and a lot of HBO stuff.
All that stuff that, where they dialed down the color temperature way too far and over sharpened it.
Like all of those kinds of TV shows, like almost everything where Nicole Kidman is just dealing with people.
Like it's fine if it's on, but I am absolutely not engaged with what's happening in those shows.
Not in the way that I am with the stuff that I think is really propulsively written.
You know what I mean, though?
It's like, I think I know what you're saying, and I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but it's like, you know, if you guys are just going to like, like last night, there's a character, doesn't matter, but there's a character who's been in a catatonic state for like 14 episodes.
And last night, the person came out of that catatonic state while they were talking about how expensive Broadway tickets are for a while.
And then they turn back and they're like, hey, what happened?
There was an earthquake.
There was an earthquake and now Mary can talk again.
You want me to rewind?
No.
Okay.
Oh, this is the other amazing thing about Ari.
She wakes up.
in the last one minute of every time and there's no accounting for it it's not like the music gets a little louder no i thought about all this is it louder is it quieter is there something in the way that is there is there like a high-pitched only dogs can hear sound that tv show runners put in the last one minute of the show oh yeah
Right is there something that I'm not because I watch one of those sounds and only teens can hear but in that case it It's only sleeping moms can hear only sleeping moms can hear it's probably it's got It's at a certain pitch that all all moms can hear and that lets them know to wake up because the show's almost over and they should catch up on what happened Yes, and so I'm watching the show and I'm and I know it's getting toward the end and I start looking at her out of the corner of my eyes fast asleep Watching the show fast asleep still and then it's like it's like magic
The last minute I look over, and not only is she awake, but if you had only just looked at her, you'd think she'd been awake the whole time.
Awake, watching the show.
Yeah, yeah.
And so I started calling her out.
You faker.
You've been asleep.
And she laughs.
And I'm like, you can't just, you know.
Oh, yeah, sure, sure.
Oh, I caught it all.
She fell asleep two minutes in and slept until the last minute.
I don't know what's happening.
It's very spooky.
But last night I was like, okay, we're watching this show with Seth Rogen and it's a studio in Hollywood.
And the show comes on and I'm like, here he is.
He's fine.
It's a little pleased with itself.
Well, and so I'm like, oh, I like their costume.
It's very well done.
It's a very well done B plus show.
I'm not going to cancel stuff to watch it though.
But so she falls asleep.
And all the stuff that she likes is like, look at these beautiful costumes.
Look at these great sets.
Look at these like long Aaron Sorkin walk and talks.
Yes.
You see those fucking walk and talks in everything too.
And I'm always, that's the other thing.
I'm sitting in there and I'm like, here's a walk and talk.
And then I look over.
Oh, she's asleep.
Who am I talking to?
I'm not even.
Here's the part where we see that Seth Rogen is difficult to work with on movie sets.
Yeah.
Yeah, here it is.
Here it is.
And I'm watching and I'm like, okay, and this is one of these shows where it's like shortcuts where there's a famous people playing themselves.
I can get along with that.
That's fine.
And then about three quarters of the way through the show,
I have that moment where it's like, oh, I get this entire show.
I could tell you what happens in every one of these eight episodes.
Like, I don't have to be, I don't have to watch this show.
I already know what it's going to do.
And I just was like, yeah, but then sometimes it's fun to watch because I am a big fan of implementation.
That's why I tend to believe that a truly good story, generally speaking, cannot be spoiled because even if you know what they're going to do, you
I mean, that's just my opinion.
But like, as Roger Ebert said, it's not what the movie's about, but it's how it's about it.
And that's, I think, how I try to look at movies.
It's not to just go like, oh, well, it's a this plot.
Because it's like, as with Edgar Wright, I think is a really good example, one of my favorite directors.
Like, I could tell you the entire plot of every one of his movies, but it's nothing compared to like, you watching what's happening and you like figuring out the connections all on your own.
I don't know.
That idea that like there's this digital thing where you get spoiled or don't on a movie.
Like I would prefer I avoid trailers for things I know I'm going to see.
I just assume not know anything.
But there are times where I really just like the implementation of something.
The trouble for me at night is, like, anything that requires subtitles.
Like, there's a bunch of stuff from Criterion.
Like, I just got this Jacques Tati box set from Criterion, and I'm looking forward to watching it.
But it's like, those you can, it's a very, those are very visual movies.
But, like, I love Shogun, but I can't read, like, translations all night, every night.
That was a good show, that show.
That was a good-ass show, and the way they did translations was so good.
So, I recently, because what happens?
She falls asleep.
And then I'm like, okay, here I am.
I'm in this show.
I wouldn't pick this show.
I'm not watching this show.
And then the show ends and she opens her eyes and we talk for a little bit.
Sometimes we even talk about our kids at school.
Sometimes we talk about the news or whatever.
And then she's asleep again.
And then I'm there and I'm like, I do feel that this is an important thing
role that I have I'm not gonna say that it's like a your presence is important it is it's not it's just like it's like a kind of division of labor in a relationship where you where it's intangibles that you can never say I can give you a very specific example I think which is when somebody's sick
Almost everybody likes to be treated a certain way when they're sick, even if they don't admit it.
Some people really want to be ignored, whereas some people want to be pampered and you don't make a big deal about it.
Some people want to pamper and you do make a big deal.
But, you know, everybody's different.
But you also have to learn.
It's just, it's pampering all the way down.
You have to learn some kinds of things that are super fucking annoying.
Like don't bug people all the time unless they like to be bugged.
Just bring them what they, you know what I mean?
But that's what a relationship is, is learning that stuff.
And you're more than a large cat, at least in my mind.
Thank you.
I don't know.
Yeah, it's not stuck with you.
You see a lot of relationships where people have been together for 25 years, but you spend like an evening with them, and part of their relationship is just bickering.
Oh, hell yes.
I grew up with that.
I totally grew up with that.
No, that's not what I mean.
Bick, bick, bick, bick, bick.
And I used to think like, oh shit, they're getting divorced.
But then I realized, oh no, there are people that are married for 60 years.
That's how they talk.
Yeah, exactly.
That's how they also like, I don't know, I'm not quite old enough to completely know this internally, but I think it's also how you re-rehearse and reassert the boundaries, whatever those boundaries are.
Sometimes that boundary is just something like, this person is never allowed to be right about this topic.
Right.
Right.
Honestly.
Yeah.
If you have the temerity, when I'm correcting you at length about something I've decided you're not allowed to have a strong opinion about, if you were to fight back about that in front of other people, there would be, you'd throw hands.
Like there would be words about that.
Like, no, my gig is I act like you're a dumbass about this and you agree.
Yeah, that's right.
Absolutely.
And there's that whole relationship thing where let's agree that you're a dumbass.
Another thing I saw a lot growing up.
A lot growing up.
But so Ari and I, there's no bickering.
We never bicker.
We're not interested in it.
It's not fun for us.
It never comes up.
And so there's none of that like, well, I emptied the dishwasher.
We'd never do that tit for tat.
Trading emotional wampum with each other.
Yeah, exactly.
There's none of that.
But you know, I did help you carry that stuff up from the grocery store.
put that on your chart on your chore chart but as you know anytime you're in a long relationship with somebody there's all these things where it's like oh i see like this whole sphere of the world belongs to me and i do this for everybody i do this for us and there's no i'm not trying it's not anything about my points your points it's just like this is what i do i'm over here
And you don't ask for thanks.
And you don't... It's just what we do.
And there's a million things that Ari does for all of us that she never wants any points for.
And all of the things that I do, I used to say...
Oh, it's not, I do nothing.
You know, I'm just a blah and I'm like nobody.
And you know, because of that thing, that, that thing that we always had where it's just like, you run yourself down.
Like, what was I doing?
Nothing.
What do I do?
Nothing.
Um,
but realizing over time like oh shit i do so much and a lot of it is calculable like oh dad does all this hard stuff nobody wants to do but there's all the incalculable stuff all the weird little like oh this isn't where that belongs but it's my job to put it where it belongs
And, you know, oh, it's Monday night.
Everybody's asleep, but dad is sorting through the recycling and, you know, like all these little things where it's just like, you can yell at a kid about leaving the towel on the floor, but you can't yell at your partner about leaving every light on in the house.
It's her fucking house.
Right.
All this small stuff.
And sometimes that eventually sneaks in as something like, well, I would do this differently, even if you don't say it in those words.
And there's always the constant temptation of the I told you so type things, which are, in my experience, very rarely useful things in a relationship.
Well, and what I do sometimes is like, I've got to clean all these drawers at her house.
And that's the other thing, right?
We have two separate houses.
So there's all this stuff where I'm like, these drawers have reached the point of insanity.
But...
She's like, I don't see the insanity in the drawers.
And probably also I could really use your help with this other thing that I told you I need your help with.
Right, but it's not as much fun for you.
Every once in a while she walks in and everything in every drawer is out on the floor.
And she's like...
surprise and i'm like i'm helping i'm sitting on the floor in the kitchen and i'm like don't come in here don't come in here you just go somewhere else while i change everything and it's you know and then they readjust to like daddy has arranged everything
But, but what happens with the sitting in the couch is that I don't want to, I don't want to break the spell that she's in.
You're lucky to be wanted.
Thank you.
Well, no, I mean, like, you know what I mean though, right?
Like that's, I don't want to like tiptoe out.
Right.
I don't.
And eventually I'm going to go to my house.
but I want her to have this time that she's not even aware, right?
It's not like we're talking.
I'm just like... It's another one of those unstated things.
I've talked to Alex, my friend Alex, about this, where they and their partner have this no info dump rule, which I think is such a good rule, which is like when you first arrive, my version of this would be, well, first of all, always read the room for how everything feels before you walked in.
But their thing that I think is really smart is like not no info dumps, but unless if you both agree, try and avoid info dumps.
When you first arrive home, don't complain and don't info dump.
If I had to give advice to people in the world, this would be potentially never enter complaining.
Oh, that is a good line.
But, like, you'd be amazed how often, like, I mean, I catch myself doing it, and I'm like, oh, my God, what a shitty introduction to the rest of my day.
It's like, here's something I'm mad about.
Like, I would say, if you can, avoid complaining and avoid info dumps.
Unless you like an info dump.
You know what I'm talking about, though, where you come home and you, like, you go, oh, I forgot to tell you this thing and blah, blah, blah.
And, like, it's just that sometimes you don't, if you haven't read the room and you don't know how the other person...
is in that moment.
An info dump can be a really big drain on an already, a reservoir already in need of rest and replenishment.
Right, rest and replenishment is a hard thing to see right out of the gate.
Like that you're- Especially theater complaining.
well so i started this is this is one of the things that 30 rock used to do for me because she'd be asleep the prestige television show that i didn't really like has ended and i'm not not like tied to the the place i could get up and go home and and sort the things in my own kitchen
But I'm like, here I am, and I'm doing a relationship thing.
I'm part of a system.
And so I'm just going to sit here on the couch, and I'm going to watch something that I want to watch.
But there's only so many times.
That's my thought technology, too.
Yeah.
There's only so many times I can watch Blade Runner, right?
How many times can I watch Band of Brothers with a sound bar going, Band of Brothers?
And so 30 Rock was my fun, like, this makes me feel good.
I walk out of here in the middle of the night.
I call it the default show.
Default show.
I think at a given time, it's nice to have a profile for something that can be a default show.
And if you're me and your couch commander, and I know that the other people are not going to pay attention, I'll pick something and then say, like, is this cool?
But trying to pander to people by guessing on what they'll pay attention to has not been fruitful for me.
No.
Well, no.
I think you'd like this.
And now I've given you homework and I'm acting disappointed that you aren't paying attention to my film.
And nobody fucking needs that at six o'clock.
I have this obsession.
This is super quick, but there's this obsession I've been having that I'm really working out.
emotionally and mentally, about the distinction between people and ideas.
And how we often get ourselves in trouble because we think we're talking about a very general idea, whilst the person we're talking to might think we're talking about a very specific person.
It goes in a lot of different ways.
But here's one.
I spend, I don't know about you, I spend all day paying attention to information.
And to some extent, paying attention to people.
But both of the other two people in my house, if I had to put this on a scale, they pay way more attention to people all day long.
Than I do.
And I think, I'm just pulling this out of my ass, it just occurred to me, but first of all, people and information, a thought technology to think about.
Like, I'm ready with my ADD in the afternoon, which is definitely a thing, or evening, I am ready to disappear into a completely all-encompassing, most of the time, story.
Like, later on, I might not be as into subtitles, but I am ready to watch, you know, Shogun any time.
Or, you know, whatever.
But I'm going to really watch it.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I just made that shit up, but, like, I pay attention to information all day, and I'm thrilled to get to pay attention to people in the evening.
I think my family members, if I had to say, pay a lot of attention to people all day.
And probably your...
Lady Friend does too.
And now they're happy to just be able to control information, like to look at a screen, to decide what I'm going to do, to not be perturbed about whether I'm paying attention to the TV right.
And those are, I've had to learn to be less of a dick about that.
Because it doesn't really matter.
It doesn't make anybody happy and it improves nothing.
That's just me.
yeah yeah i understand exactly what you're saying yeah i mean i i'm uh i have that with with with my kid because she because there's so much about the world i want to show her i know that's accessible
long winters where i'm like and i'm like how could you so that can peel sketch we watched the other night where the guy orders pizza and acts like he has all those friends and he refers to all the dolls by the name of the actor instead of the name of the character so they wouldn't get in trouble with copyright that was live tyler why why am i explaining this it has nothing to do with what we're watching but to your point there's a part of life i want to make sure you didn't miss an unnecessary connection
Yeah.
Well, and, and like, and all the things, I mean, you're, you're extrapolating to all of these other things in the world that you want to show them.
And, and, and like, these are how you're going to navigate the world.
Yeah.
And she is very used to that for me.
And now increasingly completely unreceptive to it because she's like, yeah, okay.
Okay.
I know the world that you're living in, but you, you don't know the world that I'm living in.
And up until recently,
i was like what world are you living in sixth grader you there's not you've never seen a thing that i wasn't standing there but now she's in high school and she's like yeah i'm seeing things all the time when you're not standing there oh lordy and i'm like oh yeah i guess that's true and i guess uh do you guys talk much about music
Well, because she's very, yeah, we do.
Because my kid does not listen to music the same way I do.
Well, she's very connected to contemporary music.
But I find out my kid loves talking heads, right?
I find out that my kid specifically likes something.
And so now, of course, because I'm dumb fucking trying to keep my relationship together with my kid dad, I'm like, oh, yeah, but have you seen Live in London 1980?
It's my favorite concert of all time.
And did you know Adrian Ballou is playing live on that?
He also played with Bowie.
And with King Crimson.
And I'm going on.
I'm going on about all this stuff.
And then, you know, these two started the TomTom Club.
And, you know, Adrian Ballou, his guitar is sampled from that in that Mariah Carey song.
So he makes a lot of money from that.
And, like, it's all just talk about an info dump.
Like, none of that is elevating the experience.
And, in fact, I think it's exhausting to them.
When do you think you...
became somebody that cared who the second bass player in a band was.
What was the process between where you went from being somebody that was just listening to the radio to being somebody that was listening to new songs that weren't on the radio to being somebody that wanted to know that Adrian Ballou
played on this certain track like what was your i love this question i love this question i can easily give you an answer off the top of my head and i would love for you to think about it while i'm answering um the the the seemingly straightforward answer would be for me to say around the time i was into getting into dnd because even though i didn't actually play dnd very much i was completely absorbed in the books and the culture and the like
Not like dressing up or anything, but just like, I would just read the Dungeon Master's Guide.
You too, absolutely.
I would carry it around everywhere.
But let me go a little bit earlier.
Baseball.
Like, baseball, okay, here's something I said to my wife the other night.
We were watching a Giants game on TV, and I was saying, like, you know, a thing you might be surprised to hear about me, the thing that might not surprise you is that for about at least three years in my late elementary school years, I feel pretty confident that if you'd ask me...
the name of the network and the primetime hour, I would be able to tell you what was on every channel on network TV, the three channels.
And the other one was, I read the box scores every day and I always knew where all, at least the National League teams, I always knew where everybody was.
I always knew the Reds were three games out and the Dodgers were here, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Wow, and who taught you that?
Well, I don't know quite how, but then just finally- Did you read the TV guide?
Oh, fuck me, gently.
Oh.
We'd get the one from the St.
Pete Times.
We didn't generally buy the fancy one.
We did for a while, because I think there was one of those when a Buick publisher's clearinghouse things my mom wanted to do.
But the only other part then to bring in, which is too big to get into, is just my love for reference books.
And, you know, the Book of Lists and the People's Almanac and all of those things.
And like starting to think about information in terms of lists, connections and relationships.
But, you know, but to answer your question directly, like most days I knew how the Reds were doing.
Wow, that's so intense.
Where did it start for you?
Well, you know, because I was just at a I just went to a playoff game for the for the Mariners and the whole there's 60,000 or 50,000 people, how many they put in there who are just it's the people that care about the Mariners.
Yes.
You know, they came from everywhere.
They came down from Okanagan to see the game.
And the people I'm with, I'm like, well, so what's going on?
What's going on with this player?
What's going on with this?
And they're like, well, listen, if the Dodgers... We were watching a Giants-Dodgers wildcard game.
And out of fucking nowhere, I explained to my kid, who could care less about baseball, what that meant.
Actually, wildcard games are, to me, usually some of the most interesting.
Because it's not the people who are at the very top in that division.
It's the scrappers and the hustlers and who's going to get in at the last minute.
Which was super frustrating for us.
And this is the Mariners forever, right?
Which is that we worked our asses off.
We're this incredible team.
And then the freaking Detroit Tigers are in there just kind of like making it really hard on us with their wild card fucking moxie.
And we're like, what the goddamn hell?
Like, no, we don't want to go through these guys again.
Everybody in the stadium is just like, come on.
Every time the, you know, the Tigers would do anything.
We'd be like, Jesus, really?
These guys?
Because we walked in that first day like, watch us.
Watch us eat the lunch of the Tigers.
And it's like, no.
Turns out, actually, everybody at this level is a good baseball player.
Lunch not detected.
Yeah.
Every time they would hit the ball and dink into the middle and everybody's running around, Jason Finn would lean over and go, we should have had a guy there.
I'm like, yeah, well, yeah, I know.
But they're also good at baseball.
Yeah.
Okay, so I get where you... Yeah, right.
And I was not... I also read the Dungeon Master's Guide as though it was some kind of... I have a hard copy, John.
The text in that book is so small.
Yeah.
Because, you know, the last part of it is all tables and spells and all that stuff at the end in that tiny, tiny print.
But I never played the game.
I just carried those... You know, I just get home and read the books and just, like, conjure an orb or whatever.
Well, it's the fantasy roleplay version of the tennis racket, playing the tennis racket in some ways.
I loved all of the lore in the world.
I'd never read Hobbit or Lord of the Rings.
I was more into the Arthurian idea of that, the Excalibur stuff of it.
But yeah, isn't that a funny – but you never know what it's going to be that you end up being a weird almanac person about.
Yeah.
And I was, of course, dictionary reader and encyclopedia reader, but I didn't get into that with music.
I remember sitting in this punk rock house with this girl who was super cute.
And we were sitting, it was a party and a punk rock party, right?
Everybody's punk rocking all around us.
And she was very punk rock and punk rock hair and punk rock outfit and punk rock everything.
And we're sitting on the floor and, you know, and I'm always not punk rock.
So there's always this element of like, you know, because one of the things about a party like that is they're...
People look around and they go, this is the perfect party, man.
Everybody in here is exactly the right amount of punk rock.
And then I would be this, this throbbing red thumb sitting on the floor in boat shoes and
And it's like, why the fuck is this guy ruining our punk rock just by being a visual problem?
Yeah, I mean, can't you be into bad religion or jawbreaker without being obsessed with the genre?
But this is the thing about all cliques that go to the level of cult, which is just like...
You look at a room, you look at all the kids on Vespas, and they're all perfect, and then there's one person on a freaking Honda, and you're like, you're ruining it.
You're not a mod.
Like, get out of here.
You're screwing it up.
Otherwise, I could pan across this and believe everything.
and you're here making it impossible to believe so in some ways you're you're messing up my own illusion about what this is about who i am about who we all are right and so and this was like and the the problem with me was i was a street kid so it's like you're you're absolutely correct in your drug intake in your sleeping outside in your politics like you're you're so close just get the fucking jacket
And I was like, well, why would I, you know, my fashion icon is Chevy Chase.
And they're like, who?
So I'm sitting with this girl and she's like doing the thing where she's like, well, you know, did you have this seven inch of the fucking, you know, the murder puppets?
And I'm like...
I'm like, no.
And she's like, well, you know, what about the, and she's, it's the stuff that Sean and Michael used to do when we were on tour about books where they're just naming authors back and forth.
Like some, one of them would name an author and the next one would name the next logical author.
And I used to say, you guys aren't even talking about books.
You keep mentioning books.
Oh, I know exactly what you're talking about.
Yeah, neither of you have ever mentioned anything about those books.
You're just cycling through the names of books and authors.
I didn't even need to hear the whole anecdote.
I'm sending you right now a Portlandia sketch that you've probably seen called Did You Read It?
Oh, yeah.
Did you read?
And they're sitting there and just like, oh, did you read that article in the Atlantic?
But you put like at the magazine store.
You must have run into that, right?
People coming in and wanting to like, that's your version of working in a record store in some ways.
Somebody going in and well, you know, did you see this thing in Maximum R&R?
Or did you see this thing in Dirty Wet Diaper?
All the time.
Because that's the thing about a magazine store.
Sometimes there's a line out the door, and sometimes you're just sitting there.
Oh, Lord.
Comic book stores are so like that.
You never want to be the person working when there's one person in the comic store.
And there was a place next to where my cash register was that people could sidle over where they weren't in the way, and they were kind of leaning on my little...
my little booth and they could be there all day.
If I didn't like hit them with a zapper, like tell them it's not a library.
You ever tell somebody it's not a library?
No.
I mean, because I'm just trying to keep guys from masturbating in the back.
It's absolutely a library.
I would tell people, I would sometimes go around and go, come on, you can't sit on the floor.
Like, this is a busy business.
You can't just sit here and read an entire issue of McSweeney's on the floor.
But the people that were doing that were also super cute.
And they also couldn't afford McSweeney's.
And it's like, I get it.
I get it.
But so I sat with this girl on the floor at this party.
I didn't understand what she was talking about.
She was going through these records Like I like they were like a like litmus test like to like it.
Do you know what this is?
Did you have it is she's fed?
She's vetting you for punk rockness No, no, no.
I think it was much closer to the way that you're a fan of things She wanted to hang with me.
Yeah, she's liked me and thought I was cute and she wanted to get obscure
she did she was like come on let's get there and let's do it let's go the the last mile before we become a boyfriend girlfriend and i just realized i had no way to to to interact with her because she wanted to go like this band became that band this band began begat that band this band began that band and then she didn't know that about like def leppard and scorpions
Well, but that wasn't what she wanted.
Oh, no, no.
But I mean, did you have things like where you would go, oh, no, Klaus Mein is the singer.
You know, Phil Collin joined when he was 15 or whatever.
Did you have like factoids about?
For sure.
I could do that about a lot.
Did you read stuff like Circus of Cream or any of that?
I think I read Cream.
You seemed like you wouldn't.
That was, I mean, it's other people's opinions, you know?
I wanted, I mean, I definitely read reviews.
I loved reviews.
But it wasn't until I made my first record that I Suddenly music Exploded for me because I heard the bass part as a separate entity for the first time Up until the time I made my first record music
I absorbed it as a whole.
I listened to a song.
I listened to Taxman by the Beatles and it came in as an entire experience.
I did not have the experience or the consciousness.
In your head, do you think of that as the first song on Revolver, which you listened to all the way through?
Yeah, that's right.
And you listened to a record all the way through.
It's funny you should say that because that was actually a song.
that is apropos of, I was trying to get my kid to say, oh, you remember this song from Diddly-D?
I was like, you know, Revolver.
It's the one that starts with Taxman.
And Billy's like, I do not listen to albums at all.
And the thing is, that's bad on me because I know that.
And I know that's not how anybody that he knows consumes music.
And I am definitely the weirdo in that I am so constrained in my thinking about knowing what year this came out, what order it's in.
He knows Talking Heads and Billy Joel and a whole bunch of bands, like way better than I would have thought.
I was like, oh, so you like, I was like, I think you should listen to the second Talking Heads album, More Songs About Buildings of Food, because I think it's a really good entryway into the Eno years.
And he's like, listen, I don't listen to albums.
It's not that I hate albums.
It's just not how I listen to it.
It would be like having a plan for how you eat chocolate chip cookies.
Like, you know, like, no, I just eat them.
Well, I had a kind of a version of that where she's got all these text threads with all these different edgy characters, all her friends that are like, this group and that group.
And she kind of waltzed in.
At one point waltzing through the room, not even waltzed in to say this, but was going from one place to the other, just sort of in a waltz.
And she said, Camille says that Radiohead is kind of overrated and waltzes out.
And I immediately, I never do this, but I immediately opened my phone connected to the, the janky ass Sonos multiplex that I actually have in the house.
this 40 speaker Sonos that I leave off 99% of the time.
It's too much.
And I was like, threw together an instant Radiohead playlist of like the 10 Radiohead songs that are just, that move me to tears.
My very first reaction when you said what she said, what was the exact quote from, what's her name?
Camille says.
Camille says Radiohead.
That Radiohead is kind of overrated.
And my immediate response would be, that's true in some ways, but do you have a specific era or album in mind?
I don't listen to albums.
I know.
So I throw this playlist together, and it's across the genres, right?
And it's all those records that when they first came out, everybody I knew was like, oh my God, they've ruined everything.
Fake plastic trees, no surprises.
I could do my version of that pretty quick.
Really quick right and there's and there and they're all the songs where I say but no surprises You've got to listen to like nine times over like three weeks Don't listen to it nine times in one day.
You've got to really stretch it out.
It's like exit music for a film
In every way, you can't just listen to it.
You have to listen to it with all your heart.
But so I put this thing on in the house and it's just like, and I'm not even sparing it.
I'm like, boom.
And they would happily have super loud music on in the house all the time.
And I'm the one that's like,
When the music is on, I cannot think about all of the orbs I'm trying to contact.
This is known about you.
Yeah, this is known.
You are a person who concentrates on the music that's happening, and you're not paying attention to anything else.
Yeah, that's right.
I can't do two things at once.
And listening to music is an entire thing.
But I put this boom, and that's just Radiohead everywhere for about an hour and a half.
What'd you open with?
Do you remember what you opened with?
Oh, fuck.
I might open with airbag.
Sure.
Fucking let them have it.
But so wherever she doesn't come back out and sit on the floor and, you know, and look at me and ask me about it.
She's doing her own thing somewhere.
Exactly.
What are you doing?
Radiohead is swashing through the house like a tidal wave.
And I'm just like, I'm waiting.
for her to come out and go okay okay okay and she never does and it just is and then when my playlist kind of comes to a natural end we're about to go do something you know we all go out the door and i'm like huh radiohead huh and she's like yeah it's pretty good actually you know and i'm like yeah okay all right well there you go you never have to listen to that playlist again if you don't want you can't do it
But what the fuck, what does Camille know is what I'm saying.
What the fuck does Camille know?
How many, how many Radiohead songs has Camille heard?
Is Camille like saying that creep is overrated?
That's different.
That's different than, than letting you have both barrels.
You got to show her the version of them doing it at the spring break MTV spring break party.
I know where they're so mad about being there.
And he's got, he looks very, very ill.
He looks very pale and very blonde.
Do you know the story about when Death Cab signed?
Have I told you this story?
When Death Cab first signed to Universal out of their bar suit gears, and they were like, we're going pro.
This is before transatlanticism?
This is transatlanticism, I think.
And they're like, we're out of here.
And not out of here, because I've always been hometown boys, and they're like, love Barsuk, love our bands.
But now we're going to the show.
Didn't they come up with an arrangement that was good for Barsuk in some ways?
Everybody wins, right?
It was a nice thing.
It was indie rock times.
The big labels were trying to court indie bands.
It didn't be one of those scorched earth.
We used to be on matador kind of abandoned.
Not at all.
It was much more like maybe universal should buy bar soup for millions.
And of course, Josh was like, no, I would rather work 80 hours a week for the rest of my life.
But they get up there and they're just like, now we're going to be on the billboards.
You know, now we're going to, now the record's going to sell a million copies, which it didn't.
But the first fucking thing Universal says is great.
We've got you booked on spring break party 72 or whatever.
And we're going to put you out there on the side of a swimming pool.
Maybe Chris Wallach could judge a bikini contest.
Yeah, where frat boys and sorority girls are just losing their virginities right and left.
And the band says, what?
No.
That's not what we do.
Did you see also free beer?
Like, is that who we want?
Yeah.
Did you see us when you signed us?
Do you know who we are?
That's not us at all.
But this was the, this was the thing about modest mouse playing their first show for a bunch of guys in white baseball caps where they said from the state, I was there at the, at the show at the crocodile.
They were like, who are you people?
And like, because no one like that had ever been at their show before.
Right.
And suddenly everybody at their show,
Was wearing a college sweatshirt and they were like who where did you come from?
Like why are you here?
And then all those bands that is a really strange one because they were always weird Super weird those kids when they were growing up in Issaquah they fucking huffed glue like they are not normal at all But you know and there were there were kids from Issaquah at that show who were like Issaquah hi
And the band is like, Issaquah?
We tried as hard as we could to get out of Issaquah.
Yeah.
But anyway, so somebody at the label had the, I guess, the brains or the whatever or just the chutzpah to say, listen, you can say no to this.
You can say no to spring break party poolside show.
But what do you think you're on this label to do?
Let me turn that around on you.
Let me remind you that we are here to sell records to college students, and if they can't find those records, they won't be able to buy them.
Hi, Death Cab.
Welcome to our label.
It's your job to sell an extraordinary amount more of albums than you ever have, and this might help you with that.
Can you see that?
Absolutely.
And the big point was, do you want all of the people at this label whose job it is to put you in front of MTV's Beach Party 2 to say, oh, Death Cab doesn't play.
The very first time they offer you something, you say fuck off.
Then nobody's going to work for you from now on.
Oh, shit.
Everybody's gonna say yeah, I came up with these ideas and the band said fuck you so anyway, but who does wanna go play that and the band, you know can imagine Chris Wallace sitting there, you know with a with a single Daisy in the in the barrel of his gun and they're like, oh
Fuck and they went and played MTV's Beach Party As same as Radiohead I think with tears streaming down their face, but it's like yeah, you got it This is the game right and that's that's that's the whole job.
It's the whole job It's I mean sorry sorry put different I'm trying to I'm doing a call back to something you said recently That that's part of the whole job if you don't accept engagements
in mainstream media that will expose you to large numbers of people.
Well, B, you know, well, you're not doing the whole job, but A, you're sending a signal to the people whose whole job it is is to get your name out there.
And if you didn't want that, maybe you shouldn't be on Warner Brothers.
Yeah, that's right.
There's 15 people at the label whose entire job is to do this.
and you're just basically saying here's a shit sandwich i mean that's do you remember when shin when the shins did a mcdonald's commercial i was so mad i was the whole of indie rock fell to its knees baby's first french fry and then everybody was like oh i felt like such a dick they made how much yeah it was like
Oh, I guess that's not so bad.
That wasn't early.
I will never try to excuse.
I will only apologize.
I would never try to excuse my extreme reaction to that, which is like you guys are sellouts, which then had to be gently explained to me by a college student that no, actually now they can probably buy a van like super drunk license this song and now they can pay rent for a month.
And it's like that.
It's just that that came before the time when that became necessary.
Whereas now, right?
Like, it's kind of unseemly to complain about high prices and merch and all that stuff, given that it's really not up to the bands at all.
It's just a matter of like, if you want to be in this environment, that's part of the job.
Yeah.
Susan said, why are concerts so expensive?
And I was like, how much time do you have?
Like, let's go back to scalpers standing out front with tickets, you know?
but but this was uh yeah i remember it was only five years before that that sunny day real estate wouldn't uh wouldn't do interviews because they were sellouts they wouldn't do interviews with maximum rock and roll because they didn't want to sell out and now the shins who everybody are like this is the greatest indie rock band that ever and they're like you know the big dlt
But they opened the door.
They kicked it down for us.
That's the reason that I own my house.
You don't get the kind of fans I would ever want by trying to play in the Authenticity Olympics.
Except that was the whole, I mean, that girl sitting on the floor at that party was like Authenticity Olympics.
And at the end of the, it was one of those terrible moments where it's like, oh shit, we were going to kiss in a half an hour.
Yeah.
something something operation ivy but then we started talking about operation ivy and i and suddenly i turned into i was just like she she saw my boat shoes for the first time she was like how did you get into this party and i'm like but but are you kidding me i've killed a cop i'm the only one in the building that has and she's like fuck man i don't know and it's just there's no chemistry between us all of a sudden it was just oh fuck fuck
but yeah as soon as i made records then i heard then i listened to music like you did for a long time or like you see tv shows or like sean does where i'm like i hear every decision now and i can never put that back in the bottle no i can never listen to tax man again
without hearing every decision, every instrument without thinking about them, making it like the, in a way the magic is gone, but it was replaced by an incredible magic that I had met, that I didn't even know existed.
It was right in front of me the whole time, which is the magic of, of knowing the art that I'm, that I'm participating in.
Like I'm consuming it all at such a high level now.
And then that just increased the more records I made and the more times that, you know, that somebody was like, let's put some keys in a Coke can and put them in the bass drum.
And I'm like, that no longer is confusing to me.
I now believe that that is the solution to this problem.
You know, and I think it's true of architects.
When you learn about architecture, you look, you drive around a neighborhood and you're like, I never saw any of this before.
And I don't know.
I think that's what happens with us.
People like us who are generalists, where you get into a mode where you're like, well, I want to know that about everything.
i want to know at least that basic level when i look at a forest and i can identify every kind of tree it's different than looking at a forest where you can't you're like look at that hemlock it's so nice when it's you know like oh i know these only grow on the sides of cliffs see facts
Facts.
Facts.
I mean, facts in the world about things.
Facts about things.
I think people are very allergic to, not only by facts, I don't mean like, I mean, I mean, more like stuff.
I mean, like that's Carrie Coon.
She was also in the Gilded Age when she liked.
And I just, I keep explaining it.
And then I rewind so they can see when Mary comes out of her catatonic state.
Yesterday, my mom and I were at, we got called up to a friend's house.
And he was somebody that was basically in Operation Ivy, right?
He was punk rock all the way to the bottom.
He used to live in a house with...
Sunny Day Real Estate, and now he's a home inspector.
Are they not from here?
Are they from Washington?
I thought they were from, like, the Berkeley area.
No, Sunny Day's from... Oh, I know Sunny Day.
No, Sunny Day.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.
And then Jeremy got all Christian.
Then he got all Christian, and now he's back to Knox or something.
No, it's just bald.
Just bald.
Sorry.
That's so mean.
Why did I say that?
That's not even funny.
But this guy was like, hey, or no, it was his wife who said, we've got some Madrona starters that are growing in our driveway.
Would you like to come get them?
And my mom and I were like, yes, we'll be there.
Wait, so you know the Sunday day real estate guy?
Oh, I was in a... I fucking love that album.
Oh, I know.
I was in a class... Sorry, if you see him, just tell him.
Sorry about the remark, but also a big fan, you know?
I was in a college class.
I was in two classes with Dan Horner, who was the guitar player of Sunny Day, as the band was forming.
Whoa.
And he was like... I was the sarcastic one on the side, but he was the one that sat in the back with black clothes on.
It was like...
He wears black on the outside because of how he feels on the inside.
On how he feels.
Yes.
And he didn't talk for most of the time, but then when he would say something, it was always like, oh yeah.
And so he and I were the two in the class that were not just trying to get a 400 level English credit.
We were both like, oh, that's what it's really about.
And so I went to the third Sunny Day show.
Wow.
Where there were only 19 people there.
And my feeling was, huh, that guy's going to be bald one day.
John, no, we can't have this on the program.
I'm going to feel so bad if he hears this.
Nobody on the stage has ever had a guitar tuner.
Bragging about hair is like bragging about weather.
Like you had no role in it.
You're not allowed to brag about it.
It wasn't that.
It was that they could not tune their guitars because that would have been selling out.
Oh yeah.
Then again, then later they were like an incredible band.
But so my mom and I are up digging up these Madrona out of the driveway and he comes out and he's like, why are you digging up my Madrona?
And I was like, oh, your wife said we could.
And he was like, oh, she doesn't even know what the rules are around here.
Really?
And I was like, okay, I know you guys figure it out, but we're going to take these three little Madrona starters because they're the hardest thing to grow.
Madronas do not...
want to be transplanted they don't want to grow but i want them they're beautiful you think jeremy knew that so well jeremy's out of the picture at this point so we're digging up these trees and it and they're growing in driveway gravel and i'm like these are growing in driveway gravel analogy that's really good we don't have any soil for them to grow in and she says they like gravel they like gravel
And it was one of those facts.
I didn't have that fact.
Madronas like gravel.
And how would anybody know that?
I overwater everything.
But this is my mom, right?
She knows every bass player of every alternative tentacles band.
Yeah.
Like Klaus Floride from Ted Kennedy's?
Yeah, Klaus Floride, exactly.
Can I ding a sound?
Yeah, get it.
How many cops do you think you've killed?
Do you have a sense?
Can't say.
Well, I mean, if you set fire to an entire cop car and there's four cops in it, does that count as one cop or four cops?
Is that Leibniz who said that?
Okay, that's the real one.
All right, stop recording.