Ep. 465: "Cocktail Goats"
That means... Hello.
Hi, John.
Hi, Marilyn.
How are you?
I'm fine.
I'm fine.
I'm fine.
Sounds like you've got a little cold.
How are you?
I'm fine.
You sound like you've got a little cold.
Well...
I, you know, yeah, no, no, no, no, no.
I wish I slept better, but you know, even I'm tired of hearing about it.
I woke up at six 30 this morning and I said, I could get up.
I could just get up.
I could bound out of bed.
Bound.
And you were awake enough that that's a thought that went through your mind and you processed it, turned it over a little bit in your mind.
I did.
I could bound out of bed.
Before you go further on this, did you have something in mind that if you were to bound out of bed, that would let you do X?
Or is it just the idea of bounding the pass through?
No, I didn't.
You could just bound out of bed.
I could, but I also had a thing.
I had a thing.
Right now, I have a thing that I could get up in the morning and do.
This ain't no 6 a.m.
thing.
I could bound out of bed and get right to work on it.
You could just be sitting there the whole time, right?
10.57, 10.58, 10.59.
I could, you know, when you, when it was time to do Roderick on the line, I could have looked at the clock and gone,
oh, wow, I've already had a full day.
I'll just talk to Merlin now, and then I could eat ice cream sundaes the rest of the day.
Because you bounded out of bed, which enabled you, it really kind of changed the size of your various strictures and keyholes.
It changes the shape of the day, maybe not of the year, but it changes the shape of the day.
I always think of that very memorable ad for the Army, I want to say, in the 80s, that said, you know, we do more before breakfast than most people do all day.
Do you remember that ad?
Yeah.
Yeah, I sure do.
And I think about how rarely I've done that.
I don't even really eat breakfast, so I don't really have a stake in the ground for that.
I just interacted a lot with the U.S.
Army, as you probably remember, because I just went— They don't ask for experience, they give it.
That's right, and a lot of them— Could you sing it for me?
If you don't sing it, I will.
No, I don't remember.
We don't ask for experience, we give it—
I had forgotten that jam and buzz skagsy.
They had so many good.
They had so many, many good.
They continue to have very good catchphrases and pretty good songs.
Yeah.
But here's the thing that I, that I, and I said this to someone in the army, formerly in the army, not very long ago.
I said, you guys have good jams, you know, good jingles, but you have freedom, but you have bad graphic art.
Their graphic art is not good.
I think it seeks, I want to hear, I want to hear, I'm just killing time because I figured this will be the rest of the show.
But the, but you know what?
I always feel like there's a little bit of a disconnect and whenever there's a disconnect at the age of 55, I tend to think it is I that is having the disconnect, not the world.
Their jams are good.
Their graphics are a little bit on, I think for the visual people who like seeing the sort of like a sticker you'd put on your footlocker, they go for that really basic look.
But then for the really soulful folks like you and me, that's when they drop a jam.
They go for a basic look because the army is all about, and I know a lot about the army now.
Okay.
Oh.
The army is about, they really like symmetry.
So if they're going to put a yellow star on a green background, they're going to put that yellow star right in the center.
Oh, like a very sort of deliberate contrast.
Yeah, but it's in the center.
There's no asymmetry.
The star is never off to the side.
Oh, almost like, you know, when I first got started, I mean, it's not like I ever became an even halfway decent designer, but I would tend to favor centered alignments for things because I found it pleasing.
Center alignment.
And now as I get older, I like a little bit of, a little offset.
As you beeped me this morning, I was preparing to make a parody of a Smiths album cover using the face of Donald Trump's former campaign manager.
Because that's a thing I do once a year or so.
And I was thinking about how, I'm saying what you will about the Smiths, and I wish you wouldn't.
But I think they're very successful.
I hate this word.
Their branding was amazing.
The Smiths, yeah.
Well, I used to say this to your friends at Barsouk.
I said, you guys need the equivalent of, like, what it was like to be a Smiths fan in 1983.
Like, there needs to be a club where you say, look, whatever you make, I will buy.
Because I love this band.
And they did that so well.
Of course, it's England, and it's all about the singles there.
But, you know, that the Queen is Dead contrast of colors is pretty daring, but it really works.
I think of the Army as being yellow and black in my head.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But is yellow still prominent?
It's got green.
They all like yellow.
They all like yellow.
Yellow pops.
My computer is really trying to get me to upgrade to Mac OS Monterey.
Uh-huh.
And I really don't want to do it, and it's really not... It would be inconvenient to do it right now unless you want to take a commercial break.
No, it's really trying to get me to do it.
Actually, it would help me a lot if you took a commercial break.
Do you want to go update your OS?
It's like, stop it.
Stop it.
Stop it.
Well, in any case... If you look at the movie... I need a clean one here.
And then John's about to update... This episode of Roderick on the Line is brought to you in part by Truebill.
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And we're back.
And John is on ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma-ma
Couldn't play with me in this space a little bit there.
Okay.
All right.
No, because Merlin, if I start to pretend that I have upgraded to Monterey, then that's going to kill me later on when I have all that additional Monterey material.
And I'm like, I still can't upgrade to Monterey.
And you're like, wait a minute, in the canon you did before the commercial break in that episode back in the night.
John Dickerson says, why eat bait if you have all this delicious food on the table?
Exactly.
Why eat bait?
Why eat bait at all?
And there's a reason he's on CBS.
He's pretty smart.
Okay.
All right.
Well, John.
If you look at the Marine Corps logo, right?
Should I be going on the global public internet for this?
Oh, I don't know if you have to.
No, no, no.
See, I'm playing with you in the space now.
The earth is asymmetrical, right?
The earth is not symmetrical.
It's not like the earth is not.
Even a star isn't.
Oh, as in like... It's like left-right symmetrical, but it's not like... AT&T logo, back in the day, depending on who you ask, was a little like the Earth, but more like the Death Star.
But it's got a certain kind of like a... But the United States is all cattywampus in a lot of ways.
And the oceans.
Oceans are a cattywampus.
They're cattywampus.
Everything is cattywampus.
Everything is cattywampus.
The Marines lean into it.
Their logo is an earth with an eagle.
Oh, shit, dog.
I don't even have to look.
It's got the eagle.
And it's got a lot of stuff like you find on your desk, right?
It's got like a globe and a belt.
And I always like to... And you know what?
The number one thing.
Number one thing I always noticed that bugged me about Marines.
I'm sorry.
Thank you for your service.
Is the way that the pants, the trouser...
And the jacket were different colors, and I thought they should be the same color.
You know what I'm talking about?
And now I think it's kind of a hot look.
It's a very hot look.
Do you want to describe their logo to the listener?
Well, the Marines and the Navy, they have the advantage of wanting to put anchors in things, and anchors aren't
Anchors are different than stars.
Let's just start off with that.
And I think historically, I learned this from the television program, if memory serves, Gomer Pyle USMC.
And I learned when I was a child that the Marines are, some people wouldn't say technically, are part of the Navy, or at least they were.
And that this led to a huge sort of competition and a lot of like, you know, oh, we're tougher than you are stuff between Navy and Marines.
Is that correct?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Their provenance is through the United States Navy.
Is that correct?
I believe so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So there's a globe with some, what would you call it?
Stippling?
Maybe a little bit of, and the one I'm looking at, and I'm sure this has changed over time.
By the way, I don't know if you ever look at the show.
I don't know if you noticed that in the last program, I did put the seal of the United States Navy behind a wreath in our show art.
I don't know if you noticed that.
Why?
Why did you do that?
Because I miss your father.
Oh, because of dad, of course.
And the laying of a wreath.
It's a little bit hat on a hat.
A cap on a cap.
And so you got an eagle.
Is it saying, is it E pluribus unum?
No.
It was fun because Susan... Yeah, I think it is.
Okay.
Sorry, I'll come back to the logo.
Susan...
posted a picture of, of the, of my dad's gravestone last week on her social media and the way that social media is now, um, you know, you post something and then other people see it.
That's true.
And, uh, and so all of a sudden, because, because I'm not, not on social media anymore.
Yeah.
I was looking at, I was, you know, looking at the internet scrolling.
Right.
And then I kept seeing pictures of my dad's gravestone on other people's social media accounts.
I would have mixed feelings about that.
Because they were like, they scraped it from Susan's post.
And probably more than a couple of people who were like, oh, did he just die?
Well, no, there was a lot.
I mean, I think everybody knew what it was because, you know, we talk about it a lot and it was like, hey, look, here it is.
It's fine.
This is it finally.
And so there was a lot of, I think it was all celebratory.
It was just a little bit weird to be scrolling along, you know, oh, it's pictures of people's cats, pictures of people's cats.
Oh, look at that.
That looks just like my dad's gravestone.
I thought they couldn't find Dave Roderick's headstone.
That's weird.
Yeah.
But now, now it's all over.
So eagle, eagle holding.
Um, I see I'm way out of practice on my, uh, heraldry.
Um, uh, did you know, is there a, is there, do you have a man coat of arms?
I think, I think you suggested one to me the week we met.
What did I say?
I think he said, if I had a t-shirt, it would say, uh, scared of everything or something like that.
Um, this doesn't have an anchor on it.
Well, I'm, I would buy that t-shirt.
Well, this is okay.
So, and I'm telling you, I'm looking at the one on the internet science site, which looks like it was drawn by somebody in, in Corel draw, but whatever.
You got a Semper Fi.
What do you call that?
When it's like a ribbon with words on it?
You know, like it says mayor.
It says mayor or, you know, like, you know.
A blaze.
Miss Pasco County.
Yeah, I love all those words.
Anyway, Semper Fidelis holding, the eagle's holding that.
That's not going anyplace.
On top with its claws at the Arctic Circle.
And there's a globe.
And it's looking to our left.
What are you describing now?
Oh, the Marine Corps logo.
Oh, yeah.
But it's got an anchor behind it.
It looks like the man coat of arms has a helmet and some feathers.
No, leaves.
No.
Lee, I don't know what those are.
I think the man coat of arms would be a slight misunderstanding rampant on 50 years of regret.
Well, here's one that's got three goats.
And then there's one that's got three lions.
Is this the show?
This is the show, Family Crest?
Yes, Mr. Show.
Now, this one has two cavemen on it.
Got the deer in the back, not me.
Sorry.
Go anywhere you want with this.
Your dad.
Oh, John, we didn't record last weekend.
It was two separate independent cock-em-ups, but in a brief message last week, you said to me that you were somewhere off campus.
Where'd you go, John?
Oh, I went on a little journey.
I've been on a couple of journeys, but you said that it was a Mac, some kind of Mac release date.
And I always feel excluded because everybody I know that does a podcast on Mac Day
which is like Life Day.
You're greatly, deliberately misinterpreting every aspect of what I said.
What I said was, I forgot as of last Monday, and I don't need to defend myself, I'm broken inside.
I said, oh, I forgot there's an Apple event today.
Exactly, a Mac event.
Apple event I'd like to watch.
Can we record at noon instead of 11?
That's what I said.
And so that's what I was working on at the time.
And then what did you say?
But I'm always... The thing is, what I'm always sad about is that I never get to play in those Mac events.
You can watch it.
It's free.
You can watch it anytime.
But I don't know what they are.
I don't know why I would...
And you guys are so excited about it.
You're confused about what you're even not being excluded about.
What's happening?
I know.
This is the thing.
I thought about that the other day.
Last episode, I was talking about not getting invited on some not-a-surf tour.
And then I was like, wait a minute.
I think those guys might listen to Roderick on the line.
And they think I'm sending them secret messages.
Do you remember what I said afterward?
Because you're my friend.
I said a thing.
I said, and I don't think this is saying too much.
If you hate this, I'll cut it out.
No, it's okay.
I think what I said was, John, are you shh?
Are you sure you want to go from doing what you're doing every day right now to touring in a rock band?
Or do you just want people to star your tweets?
Because one is a lot more work.
I mean, do you even know how to tune a guitar anymore?
I don't.
Well, that's okay.
Neither did Jimi Hendrix.
I saw Mike from Orangerhead to come out and tune Elliot Smith's guitar, but that was for different reasons.
That was for a lot different reasons, yeah.
Yeah, 2.45 in the morning.
I always wanted to be so famous that I could forget how to tune my guitar, and now I've just forgotten how to do it without being famous.
Oh, you accidentally succeeded.
I did, I accidentally, good job, famous enough.
But no, what I want to know is, is there something new in the Macverse that I should be excited about?
Yes.
Do you want to talk about it?
Yes, I do.
You don't really want to talk about it.
First of all, you're invited.
If you want to do an annual podcast.
Uh-huh.
Where you and I watch, as you call it, the Macintosh event, and then we talk about it.
I would be happy to do that.
This is way outside the portfolio of this program.
You're fine to have missed it.
And going and thanking people for their service was a much more valuable use of your time.
Do you feel like if you and I watched... But you didn't get to the punchline, which is when I said, can we start an hour later?
You said, I guess I should have told you.
I'm out of town.
And you're at the remedial war night school or something?
Yeah, I was at the remedial war night school.
No, no, no.
No, I don't have it in front of me.
I'm not going to quote it.
But you went to like a college of armies or something, right?
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, something like that.
Jesus Christ.
It's like you're in my fucking family.
Yesterday.
Let me fast forward to yesterday.
A little bit.
So you remember Long Winners drummer, Nabil Ayers.
I do.
He's been sending lots of email about a book.
He's written a book.
Pretty regularly.
He's written a book and he's sending, for the first time in his life, he's never promoted anything really before.
Nabil's got a good head.
I mean, at first you would look at it and go, is it the eyebrows?
Is it the facial hair?
Is it his particular tonsure that he has?
But like the whole thing is, Nabil has an outstanding head.
Yeah.
He's outstanding in every way.
And a good guy.
Yeah.
And he wrote this nice book.
It's not nice.
It's a complicated book.
It's a wonderful book.
Is it about his history in rock and roll with the label?
With 4AD, right?
No, it's about, you know, his father is jazz vibraphonist, legend of jazz, legend of jazz, Roy Ayers.
Are you scatting?
Unfortunately, Neville's father's name can only be scattered.
He's a legend of jazz.
His father, Roy Ayers, and he never really, well, never met, I don't think, until he was in the Long Winters, until he was in his late 30s.
And that's what finally did it.
His father said, blink, blink, blink.
I want to meet my son in the Long Winters.
Yeah, he was driving out in the South somewhere, listening to indie rock.
And he was like, this band is jamming.
Who's the drummer?
No, it was just one of those that finally came together.
And so he wrote, Nabil wrote this book about, it's a, it's about identity.
It's about discovering who he is.
Oh, that's cool.
He's a mixed race kid.
He grew up in Salt Lake and, and up between Salt Lake and
And Greenwich Village, the two.
Then he ran a label.
Total polls of the cultural universe.
He still is.
He's the director of whatever, Baker's Banquet.
I don't remember exactly.
Well, one of those.
They put up pixies and stuff like that.
They're all the same.
They're all the same now.
It's all English.
They all got bought.
They got bought by England.
Cocteau twins, mountain goats.
It's all the same thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right.
It's all the same.
Did I say cocktail goats?
Cocktail goats and mountain twins.
The Cocktail Goats is going to be my new Cocktail Twins cover band.
In the style of the Mountain Goats.
So he was on tour.
He was out here.
He's doing a book tour.
That's what he's sending you all those messages about.
And he was out here in Seattle.
We met for lunch and we're hanging out.
It's a very successful book.
He's doing a... It's a very fun tour.
It must be such a good feeling after all that work.
I know, right?
I...
And most of the time I would be just envious enough that I would be mad.
Yeah, yeah, you walk right up to the edge of it being a little bit difficult to cover up that you're envious.
Even participating in the conversation would let out too much.
But Nabil is so great.
He's one of those friends that when he has success, you don't begrudge it at all.
They're the worst.
Yeah, I know, I know.
You just want him to die, right?
Because it's like, I love that you're having such a great time.
Honestly, I do.
I think about that movie Bob Odenkirk was in last year called Nobody.
And I would say it's very much like it's supposed to be like a funny John Wick, right?
So Bob Odenkirk, it plays this guy who's like an ex-spook who is like John Wick level, I could beat your ass.
But he totally feels like cucked out by life and he's really beaten down and all this stuff.
And anyway, then he has a John Wick movie.
And supposedly Bob Odenkirk spent at least a year getting in fantastic shape for this movie.
And the movie comes out, and like, Bob Odenkirk was really good at it, and the fight scenes are good.
The movie's kind of terrible.
And I just think, I do think about that now, where it's like, he worked so goddamn, it's one thing to be Chris Pratt and get ripped, and then get to be in like Guardians, and be in Guardians of the Galaxy or Jurassic, whatever.
But like, it must suck to work that hard for that long.
Think about how much of his time was getting in the right kind of shape and training for that movie.
And then the movie just came and went, and people were like, meh, you know, fine.
It'll be on basic cable, I'll catch it later.
But Nabil didn't have that.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, I, I was reading a thing, uh, s somebody like not actually this, it's, it's weird that that ties in.
There's a, uh, well, I'll, I'll just tell the, I'll just tell it from the start.
Why don't I please?
Uh, so Nabil and I are hanging out and, uh, and we had lunch and he's like, I have to go to this book signing event.
And I was like, I'll drive you.
So I drove him there.
It was at a record store.
He goes in signing books.
I'm leaning on the door outside.
Enough people that I know are coming and going that I'm, that I'm the guy that's standing out, leaning on the, on the wall of the record store, talking to people.
I'm, I'm standing there talking to people long enough that Nabeel's book signing has, has concluded.
He's, he's gone the whole thing and he has another book signing downtown at the sub pop store.
And so he comes out and he's like, you know,
Job well done.
And I said, well, since I'm standing here, I don't know.
I watched the first episode of the English office yesterday.
So I've been thinking about you because you're the one that showed it to me in the first place.
My most quoted line from that episode, nobody ever has any fucking idea what I'm talking about from the beginning.
Remember this?
It's going to be perfect.
Remember when he says that?
So when my family says, hey, you want to get far for dinner?
I go, perfect.
Perfect.
You can type up your CV.
But I've got David Brent's voice in my mind.
So I'm just like, you know, like, yeah.
Anyway, I can't do, I cannot imitate it, but.
But so he comes out and I'm like, well, I'll just drive you to the sub pop thing.
Then I'm still standing here.
If I had a life, I should have gone an hour ago, but I was standing here talking to people, people coming and going.
And now I'm here.
Now I'm here freaking taxi.
Am I right?
And he's like, great.
It works for me.
And I'm like, great.
So we drive down to the sub pop store.
We get there.
He, you know, we pile out.
He's signing books.
I'm again, leaning against the wall, talking to people, bought a couple of t-shirts and then a
a good friend from the Northwest music community that had graduated a long time ago to becoming like a, like a political operative in, in the, in the Northwest culture world breezes in.
She's going to, she's trying to buy a book before she goes to this event.
And she sees me and we have this wonderful reunion.
And she says, Hey,
there's a seat at my table tonight at the event.
I want you to come.
What are the chances?
And I said... God, that's... I mean, this is like... John, this should be in the second chapter of a million stories in your life.
Is it not?
This is not the perfect John Roderick anecdote?
This is how it often goes.
Yes.
And I'm standing there, but I'm like, so this event...
is one of these big fundraisers that happens every year for a local, uh, for a local operation that everybody loves.
And it's an event that I have been to for a dozen years and I have performed at it and I've hosted it.
It's an auction, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a, one of these events on the calendar that, but very much an event that I did not expect to be invited to.
because of recent history.
And it's an event where everybody's very, you know, socially aware and very conscious and it's a part of the community.
It's like, it's very inclusive and it's a place where... It's a fundraiser for a local politician, a local political group, a cause.
Well, so I guess I can say what it is.
There's a youth music art organization in Seattle called Vera Project.
And Vera Project is based on
a venue in Groningen, Netherlands called Vera.
And it's now, it's now been in Seattle for 21 years and it was started by friends of mine.
It's a, it's like a youth punk rock art space.
And
it was kind of one of the first that said, you know, rather than, rather than try and squash kids and rather than, than force them to put on shows in, in, uh, well, where we used to have shows.
I mean, that used to be the outlet for that when I was a kid was church.
Right.
And when I was a kid, it was abandoned warehouse where the floor was covered with glass.
Right.
And I think that's where most people.
Probably one of the top five reasons that people do abandon a warehouse is all of that broken glass.
And church.
Right.
In Seattle, half the music scene came out of Jesus Rock and half of it came out of.
If you stumble across the church, you notice that all that stained glass broke.
squat take it over that's right if you come out of a show and there's not a hypodermic needle sticking into the sole of your boot like you haven't it wasn't a real good show you don't get it man so this venue vera project it's just been it's like really cool it is and it's the hub of a whole universe not necessarily like it's not necessarily that vera produced a a ton of bands that anybody heard
But it's the hub of an awareness, like a consciousness.
Not even necessarily a scene, although I guess if you were 15, it's probably a scene.
But it was much more from the perspective of people my age.
Like, this was a place that we did good work, and we would have these fundraisers.
And it's also a big Seattle Gen X community.
social, uh, social event.
Like a, it's like a gala, whatever a ball.
Right.
But not one that, but it's a punk rock.
I get it anyway.
So I'm standing there and she's like, you know, I want you to sit at my table, come to the event with me, first of all.
And, and, and I said, no, I was like, I, I'm not ready for that.
I don't think, I don't think I'm ready for it.
You know?
And at her table, there's like,
a very big local politician sitting there at the table.
They're there.
It's a prominent table at the front of the room.
And I'm like, I don't think so.
And, uh, and she's like, no, really, I want you to come.
I want you to sit at my table.
And you know, there's incredible generosity on her part and just like affection.
But this is the first of any of these that I've like, I haven't done anything.
I haven't been anywhere.
And I'm standing here leaning against the wall, holding it up while Nabil signs some books.
And all of a sudden here it is.
And she's like, and also it's a punk rock dress code.
So you're dressed fine.
You don't have to go home and put on a tie or anything.
And I'm just wearing a flannel shirt.
She's like, it's fine.
Come.
And I'm like, I don't think so.
And she's like, oh, okay, well let me know if you change your mind.
And she walks out the door and I'm standing there and I'm just like, I don't think.
I can, you know, this is exactly what I've always, I've always gone to these events.
This is, this is precisely where I would be.
This is, it is, it is categorically your retinue.
Yeah.
And if, and if nothing had happened a year and a half ago, I would already be going to this event.
Right.
But I didn't know about it, you know, like, and, and, and who knows whether that's, well, I know.
So I'm standing there and I'm like,
uh, you know, I'm kind of as the, as the, as the young people would say, I'm a little shook.
I would say I was shaken.
Yes.
But, but younger people might say I was shook.
So I'm standing there shaken and Nabeel says, what are you doing?
Dumbass.
You have to go.
And I said, I don't know, no, no, no.
I don't, I don't think so.
And he was like, it's freaking kismet.
Why are you even here?
Why are you leaning against the wall at this sub pop store?
You're not supposed to be here.
You're just here because you're following the day as you always do.
And here's where the day takes you.
It took you to here.
I'll have a little of your own medicine, Scarecrow.
Exactly.
He knew how to get that photon torpedo in.
Damn.
He did.
He's a smart guy who has a lot of thoughts about things.
Who knows me.
Yeah.
Show me an example of something that's more your shit.
Yeah.
And he's like, you garbage person.
Go to this.
Yeah.
Fuck you.
Get in your car and go, you know, text her right now.
Tell her you're going, go to the thing.
Oh, I'm so I'm pacing back and forth like, but, but, but, you know, cause, cause in my mind, I'm, I'm imagining all these, you know, all these terrible situations, little scenarios where I'm standing, standing next to the bar, getting a decaf coffee and somebody goes, yeah, or whatever.
From nowhere in particular, you're hit by a can of beans.
Yeah, exactly.
Or, you know, or I sit down at the table and somebody stands up and silently walks away or turns their back.
I don't know.
Somebody from the stage.
Played by Margaret Dumont.
Exactly.
Somebody says, well, it's great to be here tonight, except for one thing.
And so as one, all the spotlights sweep.
Exactly.
Five spotlights converge on a very disoriented looking John Roderick.
Everybody stands and turns their backs and I'm there.
But you know, the, the woman who invited me is a matriarch of the, of the whole community and, and a beloved one, right?
Like no one, uh, no one can.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, yeah, I get it.
And so.
so I go, you know, so, and I, so what I say is, well, I'll give you Nabeel, I'll give you a ride to where you need to go after this sub pop event.
And I'll think about it.
And so the, on the drive over to wherever I was taking him, he was just like, you know, there's no way that you, there's no way that you can't go.
You just have to go.
And that's how that's, you know, it's, it's what Jesus wants.
Right.
And so I dropped him off and I looked at my watch and I, and I realized I had exactly, it was another one of these, like it takes 28 minutes from here to there and it's 28 minutes from now.
And so I just said, okay.
And I drove to the, to the venue and it was a big fancy ball, but Seattle fancy ball.
Right.
So everybody looks like, you know, they work.
It was punk rock casual.
Yeah, exactly.
But except some people are wearing fancy hats and ball gowns.
It's punk rock casual.
Exactly.
It's like a Courtney Love album cover.
And I walk in and I'm standing there just sort of like a hand in pocket.
Again, leaning against the wall, looking around.
I know everybody.
And one by one, every single person that I encounter...
Gives me a huge hug, a big, like, oh my God, it's so great to see you.
And it's loud in there.
So it's just, in a way, it's great.
It's loud enough that no one can really have a long conversation.
Oh, that's nice.
You know, they can't be like, tell me how, you know, what's been going on.
You couldn't begin.
It would be very much like, let's restrict our, our, our conversation to well wishes.
Cause we don't, there's not, it's too loud to go into any depths.
But there was, there was tremendous, like,
concern and feeling in people's faces like big, you know, like they're giving me like big, big eyes or wet eyes even like, but, but I was, I mean, you can never know who you're not embraced by because, but nobody made a point to walk over and then turn and walk away.
A pile of lambskin slapping gloves accumulates beneath John.
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off your first purchase of a website or a domain once again please squarespace.com slash super train offer code super train they've been great to us they're going to be great to you um and our thanks to squarespace for supporting roderick online and all the great shows but a lot of the people you know a lot of the people that i saw you know when i first saw them i was because i know all their politics i know everybody in there's uh you know in life in and out
And there were people that probably, uh, well, that would have had every, they could have gone either way.
In other words, right?
Like it would, it would, it would have been a choice in that moment between, am I going to make a political statement or am I going to treat this person like a human being?
And in every case I got treated like a human being.
And, uh, and it was really, uh, profound or not profound, even just like, uh,
scary you know i'm still scared a little um i mean about that event afterwards like i absolutely i opened my email like waiting because you never that's the thing you never know when they're when it's it all goes great and then the next day there's never an official end to the latent period between when something is super intense and when it is god willing mostly blown over like you're never really done with anything in life
but but there still is that like a certain period that we i don't know that i put on myself of like i'm gonna stay out of this place oh i don't even i i even mean like like last night like somebody i i of course since i'm not no longer not on social media i went on twitter and somebody tweeted i never really noticed how much john roderick looked like dr
Cali Calgary.
Who's the, who's the, what in the cabinet of Dr. Caligari, Caligari, right.
How, how much he looked like Dr. Caligari.
And, and I didn't understand the reference.
And I looked at a picture of Dr. Caligari and I didn't, I still didn't understand what they were talking about.
It's a very, very old movie.
And, and I, uh, and then I, and I, of course I thought, wait a minute, is that a, is, is that person in the room at this event?
Um,
and tweeting that as like, I'm looking at him right now, and he looks like Dr. Caligari, and that's a compliment, or just a note, or is it a flag?
He's a deranged medical guy who hypnotizes people and holds them in his sway, and then makes them move through a German expressionist film set.
Sure, so that sounds like me, for sure.
I mean, it's not you.
So they so they know they know whoever they are.
It's a knowing reference.
It went over my head, which is which which speaks to the fact that it's possible that they were there in the room.
But you know what I mean?
Like, it's not even the big picture blow over, which I don't think it will ever blow over.
I mean, I don't like to provide bait at the dinner table, but that's one part of feeling like when you get creeped out or gaslit.
is the whole like, you know what I mean?
When you start getting weird about something, and there's lots of things in life to be weird about, but if you're suspicious about something for a while, and then two things happen, and you're like, wait a minute, is this related to that?
Like, is this, there's that lady, I'm trying to think of an example that I can abstract, but like, there's that lady who always gives me the stink eye from her window, and like, could this be something involving her?
But like, where your brain is,
like crosses some kind of circuit and you just, you find, you feel just crazy enough that you're wondering if these two unrelated things could possibly be related.
I, I, I'm not saying you're doing that, but I, I would like to think that of the many ways I'm very unhealthy in life.
That's one way in which I am fairly healthy.
And I don't generally, well, maybe I do over connect things that are clearly unconnected, but in an instance like that, you'd be like, wait a minute, is this person like sitting there at the next table looking at me right now?
Exactly.
And I, and, and for all I know they were, and I think it's passed now, but like I, when I woke up this morning, I looked on Instagram and it was entirely possible that somebody would have taken a covert picture of me and been like worst thing that ever happened or who knows, but, but it seems to have passed.
It seems to have passed.
And the entire event, the entire event from the moment, uh, Kate breezed into the sub pop store to now when I'm telling it to you,
it was all positive.
It was all, it was all nice.
It was, it was all, it all felt, um, everybody I met felt generous and loving.
And, and that was, that was sort of not,
what my catastrophizing mind would have expected, right?
I would have expected at least one person.
And you're like, but again, maybe this is not you, but I know if I'm getting into that situation where I find myself feeling like I'm bracing for a blow, like somebody taking a swing at me, essentially, just a life swing.
And then it doesn't happen.
It's weird.
That doesn't mean that all that adrenaline goes away.
It doesn't mean that it feels resolved.
It could just be like, you go, I'm glad that hasn't happened or hasn't happened yet.
But, you know, it does feel good to get over a hump in what felt like a thing that could go catastrophically wrong.
It hasn't gone catastrophically wrong yet.
Well, and this bracing for a blow, that's a perfect way of putting it.
Because I've been bracing for a blow for 18 months, you know, just like ready and ready.
every time I put my head out the door to get hit really hard.
And so I have that adrenaline going all the time.
And, and the, and the other part of it, you know, the, the, the flip side of it is as soon as you stop, as soon as you do five things and you're like, Oh, I guess I'm not going to get hit.
That's when it comes right.
Or at least that's another way.
That's how they get you.
Another way of keeping yourself clenched all the time.
Um,
But so a guy, a friend of mine, a long, an old friend of mine comes up to me at the event and, and he has, he's a very political dude who has been very close to me over the years and very definitely distanced himself from me, not publicly, but just distanced himself.
And he came up and he said, did you see
uh, last year.
Oh no, he didn't say last year.
He said, did you see that Kumail Nanjiani was talking about you?
Oh boy.
The actor.
Yeah.
And I said, and again, this is like loud over the thing.
And I said, what?
And he's like the guy from, from Eternals, the actor.
Yeah.
Another guy who got in really good shape for a movie.
Nobody noticed, but I love the actor.
That's exactly the, how I'm tying it in.
Oh shit, dog.
Oh no.
And he said, and I'm like, you what now?
Now he said something about me today.
And he was like, no, no, no.
Back a long time ago.
And I was like, oh, I didn't know, but I, I know a lot of people did say things.
So it's not like I'm keeping a list.
And he was like, no, no, no.
And so I woke up this morning and he had sent me a link.
Oh, come on.
A thing that I didn't need, but a link to an article where, uh, Kumail, uh,
Was saying that he had gotten in really good shape for eternals.
And he had gotten dragged.
He was like trending.
for some reason that his buffness was getting... Yeah, wasn't he considered like, oh, you're... Well, I could be misremembering, but it took a long time.
And I think he was justifiably, he and his wife were very proud of his effort.
I mean, it's not without effort to get like that.
And was it one of those lookism kind of things?
Yeah.
I don't remember.
I have zero memory of it.
Yeah.
Um, but he was later in an article saying, I, you know, it was a really rough time for me because the internet turned on me because I got buff and I was the subject of a lot of like jokes and, and
but also getting ripped on all the, all the time.
Yeah.
And I was getting ripped on for days.
And the only thing that, that stopped it was being dad.
And I'm so grateful to that.
That's kind of funny.
Well, kind of funny, but he didn't, he never like, he's not like, I love that dude.
He was, he was just saying that took the pressure off me.
And then I guess later somewhere he said, you know, it made me realize that,
if the internet can go after this guy for nothing, like I shouldn't care about what they're going after me for.
I don't, there's no lesson.
There's no lesson to be learned.
There are no lessons, Merlin.
It's all, it's all just turtles all the way down.
You think so?
Huh?
No, I'm not sure.
Yeah.
Me neither.
Yeah.
Do you feel, how are you feeling?
Me?
Yeah.
Oh, you know, I'm doing pretty well.
I'm thinking about a lot of aspects of this.
So anyway, I'm also thinking about Nabil.
And I like the guy.
I was just looking at some photos.
I don't have that many good photos of him because I wasn't just as happenstance would have it.
I mean, I did see you guys touring with him.
When did he join the band?
How long was he in?
He was in it for a lot of the kind of the big-ish years, right?
Yeah.
You know, you were so involved in the long winters during a period when... It's called being a fan, John.
Look it up.
I know.
But you were really involved.
Like, you were the fifth winter...
for a while there, even when there were five people in the band, there was a guy in the band.
I'm the son of the rich record store owner who gets caught in the woods, uh, cottaging with other men.
I'm the Brian Epstein of the group.
But like you, you met us when, uh, Michael Schilling and Sean Nelson were in the band.
And then you were with us through the Michael shore, uh,
And then you... I was there through the Michael plays, the other Michael plays.
Michael, right?
Who's the kid who shoots the gun and plays 12 instruments?
Yeah.
Who shoots the gun and plays 12 instruments?
No, the kid.
The kid.
Oh, yeah.
You're talking about Jonathan.
Jonathan.
I was in the Jonathan years.
I was in some of the Nabeel times.
Cool, cool.
And yeah.
But anyway, he always... And he used to manage Sonic Boom before he was...
he owned sonic boom sorry and they had like they had several that was a really cool record store it was and when nabeel joined the band you know he had been in a band called the lemons which was like a punk rock
black leather jacket band in the 90s no kidding yeah like and is it in the rat king of murder city devils things uh even before them i mean but that kind of like that kind of like i would they would bristle at me saying this but i think of like you know those kinds of like post post punk glam oriented or was it more like diga diga diga diga kind of punk rock
Hey, it was before all, it was before the whole like.
Like four guys wearing tight pants look.
It wasn't that.
It was that, but it was before the like, we are all painting our fingernails with, with the, you know, with whiteout now.
It was, um, I mean, they opened for like Danzig.
Yeah.
Like it was that era of.
You're kidding.
It was.
Jesus.
That's pretty cool.
It was like Mike Ness.
He wants your skull.
Era punk rock.
Yes.
Pompadores.
Just to be clear, not Mike Nesmith, whose mother did or did not invent Whiteout, but Mike Ness, who was in that funny documentary where his band leaves him on tour.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Social D, we called him.
Mom, we got any more Social D?
Way to bring in the Whiteout connection.
That's so good.
god you're you're really like ukraine you're so amazing yeah i wish i could turn it off okay um white out white out okay um so he was in that band and i remember what every time here it is all right all right but but every time you know every time you'd go to see uh drive by drive like jehu or whatever the lemons would be playing and so i saw him a bunch of times
And he owned the record store.
He was always nice, but I didn't know it.
I didn't know him, and I didn't know anything about him.
One of my dearest, dearest friends in Florida, Mike Coleman, the other guy, really the artistic genius in Bacon Ray, managed the Vinyl Fever store in Tallahassee and was very learned.
One of my favorite people ever.
But the way Mike was when he was at work at a record store was pretty different from the way he was...
I mean, he was still really a nice guy and a kind guy and try and help you out and sit through, you know, it's like working in a camera shop or whatever, or a comic store where you got to sit through a lot of experts coming in and telling you stuff and dealing with theft.
But he was so different outside.
But running a record store, you really have to get a certain, you got to carry yourself a certain way or you're going to get eaten alive.
Yeah, but he was like, Nabil's always, well, and so when he finally joined the Long Winters, it was through Squire's.
That was the era when Squires was in the band.
And he knew Nabeel because they were in a band called Alien Crime Syndicate with Joe Mies from the Mises.
I know that band.
I didn't realize they were in that.
Squires and Nabeel were both in Alien Crime Syndicate.
Damn.
And they were, that was way more show business rock, right?
All those bands, they were all, even though they were punk bands,
A lot of those bands, and when I say Motor City Devils, I remember they had a branded bus when they came to Bottom of the Hill.
And that's why they are, for whatever reason, I think of bands that have, and this sounds like I'm slagging, and I guess I probably am, but when you'd see bands, like your van looked like something that a clown would use to pick up kids.
Some of these bands, they would drive around in this thing, and you're like, where did you get a budget for this kind of transportation?
Yeah.
I mean, you might as well be like opening for Celine Dion.
Like this, you seem like to be in a very fancy, organized operation with some money.
Well, and that's, there's so much, there were so many tours we did where we would, we would, we'd be playing in a venue and across the street, there was a much larger venue and it was a punk rock show.
And out front of the venue, there were four,
Brand new white Ford E350 vans pulling brand new, very large, like double axle trailers.
Are these like, like, like, um, I'm trying to think of like that band is on Canada AFI.
Is this like a kids wearing black punk rock kind of thing?
Exactly.
Go ahead.
All the, all the bands were wearing Stan Smiths.
They all had exactly the same black Les Pauls.
And it was a, it was a, it was a universe of,
And you never would have heard of any of the bands, but they were huge within this very small subculture of teens in... Oh, and like people would go... If they could go to a show, they'd go to five shows.
They might follow them a little bit, stuff like that.
Yeah, and there would be... There's like six bands on the bill, and every one of them plays for 45 minutes, and it's all hard, fast rules, right?
Every song is a minute, 30 seconds long.
And from our standpoint, although, you know, nominally punk...
And for the kids, uh, and paren, um, it was such a, uh, uh, commercialized, like packaged money making.
It felt like a franchise and who the bands were did sort of who cares.
And it was just, it was, it was franchised and it, oh, and the other thing it was, it was, it was, um, what, what did they call it?
Scene kids emo.
Yeah.
There was that emo scene thing that also, it was the same.
And bands adjacent to that, I mean, I didn't, Madeline and I did not go out of our way to see bands like that very often, but I can tell you, for example, we just took my kid to see a show, believe it or not, dude, at Great American.
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, yeah!
Yeah, where?
God, I mean, where do we begin?
How did they like it?
Oh, it's great.
It's a guy, Ricky Montgomery, who's really good.
But anyway, I mean, I don't even need... It would sound like a flex if I told you the experiences I've had with John Roderick at that place.
But I do remember also seeing Ted Leo there.
And I go back with the music of Ted Leo to, like, the 90s.
Like, when he was in the band with one name...
spacing on the name of his band.
But when he was in that band, but like, I was almost, and I love Ted Leo, don't get me wrong.
It was called Ratchet or something, right?
Yeah, it was like, and they had that really good song, 8 a.m.
all day or something like that was the album.
Anyway, the point being that I was almost a little bit put off, not by him, to quote, your favorite band, Sloane, it's not the band I hate, it's their fans.
Speaking there of Consolidated.
But yeah,
It was one of the most, first of all, the, the Ted Leo and the pharmacist put on one of the most like, holy shit, paint peeling shows.
You're like, how are, how is this number of people making this sound?
And not just loud, but like, it's, it's very emotional.
It's really good.
But the entire, in a way I've never seen, not with the Wrens, not with They Might Be Giants, not any other band.
Not with Lamb Chop.
Did I ever see so much stomping?
And it felt like the entire place was going to come down with fucking emo, weirdo emo kids who were so into it.
It felt like something from the early 80s again.
It felt really intimidating.
I think those kinds of bands, one reason you can run them like a business, is those kids are so dedicated to the genre.
Yeah.
in an almost English way.
You know what I mean?
In an almost, like, British way.
They're so into these bands.
They love the bands.
They love the songs.
But they're, like, very dedicated to this particular flavor of genre rock music.
Doesn't that seem like that's part of it?
And, like, you can have these F-350s and trailers and... I don't think that you can have it absent the internet in the way that it was.
Okay.
And this was pre... This was before I understood what was happening on the internet.
Mm-hmm.
But, like, the money...
where the money was coming from and who was funding it.
It often felt like churches, you know, like who, what bunch of 21 year olds can buy a brand new van.
Um, and, and it, it always felt weird.
And this was, this happened to me, uh, this happened to me a lot during that era where it was like, I'm the one playing power pop.
I'm like the old, the older dude playing.
Which you could read as post bubblegum or, or like you're playing music that appeals to young people in some ways.
And, but also like, I'm the one that's, that's got a song on the OC.
Like I'm, I'm at one level, the, the one that's more,
I mean, no one would ever accuse us of being sellouts, but like... Marketable to somebody who's got a sweet tooth for pop music.
Right, but across the street, there's tens and tens and tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, and way more people, and the energy is way higher, but it's repping...
a kind of street thing that, that doesn't even exist anymore.
Or if it ever did, it was just, it was always a very strange.
And there, that was always true at some level, the, the major label or, or the label that was a subsidiary of a major that focused on punk that had a lot of money.
Mm-hmm.
And,
When I first met Nabil, I really, you know, like the lemons opened for the dwarves.
Like they were, they were punk, but they were, they were smooth.
They were polished.
And I thought Nabil was smooth.
I thought he was polished.
And when he... He's powerful, but ultimately also just very subtle.
You can't... That's hard to find.
But that smooth polish was not a compliment in our day, right?
You weren't supposed to be smooth.
You were supposed to be like, I don't know what.
You're supposed to cry.
You're supposed to cry.
If you ever stopped moving, Merlin, you were supposed to take a knee and start crying because that's how sad you were.
So sad.
My daughter said, my daughter, the other day we were sitting in a restaurant and she was like, I want you to tell, I want you to say three good things about me and three bad things about me.
I'll go first.
And I was like, you'll go first.
I didn't agree to this.
And she was like, so three bad things about you.
And one of the things, you know, she was like, you're a teaser or whatever.
But the, the, the third one of the, of the three was you,
um, you are sad, but you don't admit that you're sad.
Well,
And I was like, I don't know if that's a bad thing.
I don't know if you could say that that's a bad thing.
And she was like, well, it's my game.
I'm making up the rules.
Thanks, honey.
Sad, but won't admit that you're sad.
You know what?
Well, okay, fine.
Okay.
I'm going to do you.
You tell people things when they didn't ask, know it.
It's your problem.
That's the parental advisory on all my records.
Sad, but won't admit that he's sad.
Two, three, four.
Yeah.
Anyway, Nabil was the guy that made the long winters the best thing that ever happened to me.
He really was because when he joined the band, it was right when things were getting good for us.
And he was the first adult I'd ever met.
Honestly, the first person that never got upset,
but not because he was crushing his emotions under a rock, although maybe he was, but he did not take stupid shit personally.
He knew what the, he would walk into a room and he would understand what the most important thing to do next was.
And he would do it without being asked.
oh that's a gift i mean can you imagine i well especially i mean in that it's great in any situation but and this is not a slag on anybody in the band but just in general it's a it's just one chaotic bummer thing after another and to have a focus that lets you instantly see okay here's the next thing we need to do like it is i don't know it's like having a manager who's also really good at drums in in most in most music situations
in most bands I've been in, when you walk in the door, at least one of the people walks in the room, looks around, and says, how can I make the next moment about me the most?
Like, what sound can I make right now that will direct everyone's attention to me and my... That's a really good way to put it.
And my sadness.
Yeah.
And then there are always two guys in the band that appear to, when they're not being directed, to immediately shut off like a droid.
Like, sit down on a bench and you see the light.
Pick up a handheld video game and just basically, like, see 3PO.
Like, you're not going to need me for the narrative in this scene, so I'm going to take an oil bath and be quiet.
Exactly.
I'm going to say battery power.
And it's like, well, actually, you know, there's all this stuff that needs to get done.
And it has to get done every- You grab a broom instead of powering down.
Like, every night at this time of the day, we're in exactly the same situation.
It's just a different venue.
And we have to do the same things every time.
Move these things to there.
There's never a time when we don't have to do these things.
But the, you know, but there's always somebody that's just like, well, I guess no one's looking at me.
But Nabil was the one that just walked in and he was like,
If there was somebody that needed to be talked to, he would go talk to them.
If there was something that needed to get put somewhere else, but also capable of doing it at a very high level.
Like he could talk to the owner of the bar and not make the owner of the bar go, what's wrong with that band?
He had the most remarkable, I don't know how this is all about Nabeel, but he really did come off as if I were somebody in a position of responsibility, I would instantly get that he's used to dealing with adults.
There it is.
And he made me feel like an adult for the first time.
because when I would be driving into a town and I'd be like, well, okay, so here's what we, you know, here's what we have to do.
And he would say things like, oh, I already took care of that.
And I would just sort of stare out the window for a minute, like, oh, great.
Because it was, it like was, it validated that
that it actually needs to be done.
Right.
That I wasn't just like, that I wasn't picking five random things out of a basket of 50 possible things.
It, I actually knew what the five things were because he did too.
And he just made the last year, the last three years of the long winters, just so great.
And one of the things he did, and that, and that, and then I won't talk about Nabil and ever, ever again, one of the, one of the things he did was,
During that period, he was so Merlin Mann in this respect, because this was during the time when you would buy a new camera every 36 hours?
Yeah, more or less, yeah.
And every time you bought a new camera, it had a whole new suite of capabilities, but it also needed a different kind of memory stick.
Yeah.
And the old memory sticks weren't compatible with the new memory sticks.
And you were always like, oh, check out this camera.
This is the camera.
And Nabil was doing that too.
And he had a digital camera at a time when all I had was a flip phone.
And everywhere we went, he just had the camera out and had it.
inconspicuously kind of at chest level.
And he was just moving it around.
Just getting candidates, just getting easy, easy candidates.
Yeah.
Pictures out the window.
Every time we sat down to a meal, he took a picture of the table.
Oh my God.
I love that guy.
Took a picture of the, you know, every time I'm standing talking to somebody, he took a picture from the side.
And then at the end of the tour, he just sent a CD brom or whatever to everybody that had every picture.
And in a way, those two years of pictures,
are going to be the thing that, um, I can already tell that they have affected my actual memory of my own life.
So that when I look back at the period between when I'm 70 and I look back at the period between 1991 and 2015, I'm going to definitely over remember that two year period, which thankfully is a happy time.
And it's going to,
It's going to kind of bleed over on both sides to make that whole period of my life feel like it was really productive and good.
That sounds like that's not terrible.
I mean, the pictures that you took of me when I was in San Francisco do the same thing.
You took all these candid pictures.
You were going through that Charles Peterson phase where you were like, what if the flash comes?
stays on or I don't know how you did that stuff.
I like to have fun.
And I love, those pictures are some of the best pictures.
And they remind me of that time in a way that colors like, it does, it ends up coloring your memory until it becomes your memory.
Yeah.
Compared to the pictures I was taking, which were
Flip phone pictures of it looks like you've gone to the Vaseline museum and plunged your phone into a big sample.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Where the lighting source was, was the sun.
So I guess we're pro Nabeel.
Yeah, he just, he, you know, he swung through town.
It'd be nice if he was easier to hate.
Not hate, hate's a strong word.
If he's easier to despise.
He's very successful right now.
And that makes somebody really easy to despise.
I'm actually sitting here trying to think of reasons to be mad at him because I don't like how successful he is.
But I can't because I keep coming back to all these nice things.
I mean, he was in the lemons.
Mm-hmm.
Lemons.
Yeah.
So, anyway.
Lemons?
Come on!
It's so funny.
All right.