Ep. 318: "The Best Chicken"
hello hi john hi merlin happy new year it is it is almost you know it's right there the first thing i had this morning was a spoonful of chocolate sauce oh like uh like out of a squirty bottle it was out of a squirty bottle i got to the end of us i got to the end of a squirty bottle of chocolate last night and then i looked and realized that i had another empty bottle of squirty chocolate
sitting next to it.
And I said, you know, I kept that second one because I was going to try and get the chocolate out.
So I got a little tray and I turned the bottles upside down to get the chocolate to drip out during the night.
Okay.
I woke up this morning and the chocolate had, yeah, dripped out, but not, it's not like it was clean.
Hmm.
Not like the chocolate had all dripped out.
There was still lots in there.
I got a little teeny spoon, and I started to try and work the chocolate out.
You did all this this morning.
Yeah, and this is with the acknowledgement that I set my alarm for 945.
Wow, wow, wow, wow.
So then I don't know why I hadn't thought of this.
Usually the reason I don't do this is I don't like to microwave plastic.
I wasn't going to say, but my life hack would be, as you know, I'm a master of the microwave.
And in that case, you're not looking to molten-ify your chocolates.
You just want it to be loose.
So for me, that's a 10-second job.
Yeah, and I was sitting there and I was thinking, what would Merlin do?
Really?
Oh, thanks, buddy.
Which I ask 15 times a day, what would Merlin do in this situation?
How does it work out?
Well, in most cases, I put a blanket over my head.
You end up anxious under a blanket.
And I'm like, oh, it worked.
I don't know why I don't follow his attitude.
Why am I so scared?
So I put the two things in the microwave for 10 seconds.
And Kapow.
Yeah, Kapow, buddy.
Nice.
That's a good way to end the year.
You ever have to work in a restaurant where you got to like, what do they call it?
Pairing?
Mating?
Where you got to like put the ketchup on the other ketchup and go into a bottle?
Yeah, the ketchup's on the ketchup.
Yep, I used to do that at the Red Robin.
I used to do that at Kel's Irish Pub.
All the great restaurants.
Great restaurants that I used to work in.
I'm pretty sure the rumor at Kel's was that they were Orangeman restaurants.
Oh, no kidding.
That's Northern, Ulster, Northern Ireland?
Yeah, but they were repping.
They're protestants.
They were repping like they were cat lickers.
But did they march a lot?
I think orange people like to march.
Well, they didn't.
In Seattle, if you march, it's about plastic six-pack.
Oh, killing the seagulls.
Not so much for going through the neighborhoods with your armor on.
To assert your dominion.
But I didn't like working there.
That was a terrible job.
I remember hearing that phrase, marching season.
That always seemed like such a strange idea to me.
What do you call it?
Northern Ireland.
Marching season.
March around, then the other ones march around.
Listen, we don't want to get into the troubles on this show.
We've got enough troubles as it is.
Tell me about it.
Am I right?
Oh, man.
Last night I went to a Fred Meyer.
Do you have those there in California?
I feel like Fred Meyer is a drugstore.
Fred Meyer is one of those stores that has everything.
You could buy lawn furniture there.
You could get fresh bananas.
Oh, it's like a Walgreens if it was good.
Well, but you can get Levi's.
You can buy Levi's at a Fred Meyer.
You can buy Levi's at a Walgreens?
No, no.
I see.
No, you know my deal on Walgreens, except in the wonderful cape you bought there.
Yeah.
My top line on Walgreens, my log line is it's the place that almost has what you need.
You know, the thing about Walgreens that we... They don't have the thing you need, but they have a thing that's almost the thing you need.
We talk about the Cape a lot.
Yeah.
But that visit to Walgreens or a subsequent one, one of those times that I went to your Walgreens, which seems like a small Walgreens.
Oh, we should talk about my Walgreens.
Yeah, you have a neighborhood Walgreens.
smoke yes it's kind of like a city target yeah but i oh exactly right we have a city target here that's like three stories tall and that's not what you want you want to be able to stand at the door of a target and see all the way to infinity you should if you don't feel overwhelmed it's not a real target but your walgreens i once bought uh a container of like a rainbow colored sharpies
I think you also bought a giant novelty-sized sharper image flask, didn't you?
Well, so, no, we looked at that flask a lot.
That was on the sharper image end cap.
Yeah, we looked and laughed.
Yes.
And I'm not sure, maybe Eric bought it.
Okay.
I don't have a ton of reason for a flask.
Well, does reason really enter into it?
I mean, you're an asthete.
Yeah.
I think I'm pronouncing that wrong.
True.
No, that's fine.
You're an asthete.
You know, now that I've branched out into other podcasts instead of just this little safe space between you and me, people yell at me all the time about my pronunciations of things.
And I think of myself as an articulate person.
But every single week, somebody takes some issue with the way that I say something.
What is that all about?
I can't start thinking about what I'm saying or there's going to be problems.
I hear you.
And so, no, my sense is I don't take you off your topic.
I want to hear about Fred Meyer and the jeans.
But it seems to me that on your on your jokey war movie podcast, that's where you get a lot.
You get a lot of feedback from people.
Oy, oy, oy, go vault.
Like serious, like people who have a beef with the war part more than the movie part?
It's like there are people out there that are like David Reese who spent a lifetime studying how to sharpen a pencil and wrote a book about it.
But unlike David Reese, they get mad at you if you don't know.
all the minutiae of the tiny little thing that they know about.
Yeah, this is a thing now.
But no, it's the other show, Omnibus.
Boy, they've got a whole thread going, just the words that I don't say.
Is it on Reddit, John?
Omnibus does not have a Reddit.
The show that I do with Dan Benjamin, Roadwork, does not have a Reddit.
But Friendly Fire and Roderick on the Line both have people talking about it on Reddit.
Except the Roderick on the Line people only go on there once a year.
It does not seem like it's regularly...
contributed to.
That's good.
That's very good.
A lot of people have contacted us over the year about this program having some kind of
external fan organization.
I got mixed feelings.
I got mixed feelings.
But our fans have never really organized in that way.
Lots of them have tried.
There's one super nice guy that's done a clone of Wikipedia to annotate certain episodes, and I'm grateful that he did that.
I would just assume people not talk about us at all.
Just enjoy the show quietly.
I know that's your preference.
Just listen to the show quietly.
Don't play it too loud.
Listen all the way through it, 1x, and then just don't talk about it.
You know, I've had quite a few tweet-ups.
I know that you...
You tend to grit your teeth through.
Oh, no, I'm huge.
I'm always up in my tweets.
I'm always like, hey, check me out.
I'm getting chilly.
But I've had Roderick on the line tweet ups.
You do an ad hoc last minute tweet up a lot of the time, right?
You say, hey, I'm going to be on this park bench for 45 minutes.
That's right.
I did that once, and it was great.
I was in Boulder, Colorado.
I was like, I'm sitting on this park bench in the middle of town if you want to come.
And a couple of people came and said hi.
I think I did that once in Brighton.
I met some young Brightoners.
Brighton.
Oh, you did.
In Inglang.
Inglang.
I was on the same stage where ABBA came out and sang Waterloo in 1974.
Oh, I know that stage.
It was a real... Yeah, I was about to step on stage to do a talk that was not very good.
I knew it wasn't a very good talk.
I was trying something kind of different.
And my host, this really nice guy, Jeremy, I thought he was nice because, you know, this is where...
Abba did Eurovision in 1974 and premiered out Waterloo to great acclaim.
I was like, thanks, no pressure.
Sure, sure, sure.
It's going out there.
Just wowing, wowing with your jokes about Helvetica.
Did you feel the pressure of the hand of Abba through the decades?
The hand of Bjorn?
Absolutely.
I am an unabashed...
I can't talk today.
Take it up on the Reddit.
I'm unirantic.
I'm unirantic in my love of ABBA, and I pass it on to my daughter like a disease, like a genetic problem.
It's like I got a CRISPR.
I got a CRISPR in there, and I reprogrammed her.
It doesn't feel like a disease.
That's not a bug.
That's a feature.
It's a feature.
So you like to do tweet-ups.
Oh, I don't like to do them, but I do them sometimes.
You don't like to do tweet-ups, you do them.
No, I don't mean I do them.
Is it no bless oblige, John, you feel like you should give something back?
Are you like the George H.W.
Bush of meet-ups?
I did a tour of Florida one time where I rented a Mustang and I drove all around Florida.
I tried to hit all the corners of Florida, which, as you know, is a square-shaped state.
And I was in Tampa, St.
Petersburg.
Yep.
And I did a tweet up there in a bar, and it was a lively time, a big success.
Was it in Ybor City?
It was right down the center of downtown St.
Petersburg.
It was on some hipster bar.
St.
Petersburg names their streets very confusingly.
Oh.
They have numbers that go up and numbers that go down.
It's kind of like Salt Lake City.
Yeah.
I guess so.
I think there's like a street that's called like Central or something.
And then on either side, it moves out in concentric, not concentric, linear centric lines.
So you can have like a first street northwest and southeast.
And like 16 different streets called Orange.
uh-huh this is where i live introducing introducing i was gonna say 9-11 introducing 9-1-1 where i live was rough because 9-1-1 is a joke in your town that's right get up get down never forget all right and they uh and so when they had to do that they had to tell a lot of people in trailer parks listen your your fruit street name ain't gonna fly you need to have you need to be something besides orange right
We can't have all oranges.
Some of the people have to not be orange.
But it was Florida, so everybody was like, fuck you.
They forgot about it.
Went back to huffing.
It was great, except at one point I was walking around the bar and I was shaking hands with everybody because it had been a big event.
That's cool.
It was really cool and a lot of nice people.
And I was walking around and then I realized, oh, this is also a hipster bar.
And we had our meetup at like seven and it had gone and it was like nine at this point.
And I was shaking hands because I was getting ready to leave.
I was like, well, time to, you know, time for me to go and, you know, go to the motel or whatever and sit and watch TV in my underwear.
But this has been great.
And I was walking around shaking hands.
And then I stuck my hand out to this like hipster dude who looked like a Roderick on the Line fan.
Oh, no.
And then I realized he was just a drunk hipster asshole and this was his bar.
Oh, no.
And he was like, why would I want to shake your hand?
And then I realized that he was super annoyed by all these people in his bar.
all these other yeah these other hipsters that you didn't know yeah why were they here having why were they laughing that's that's what freud calls the narcissism narcissism of minor differences that's right the hipsters turn on each other they are rough they are and i was like oh sorry i didn't mean to like be friendly it's also kind of like that time i introduced myself to colin maloy in a bar and that did not go well oh is that right oh it did not go well at all oh what happened not as bad as when i introduced myself to john doe that was categorically very bad because i was super drunk
Yes, but I'm the kind of person, I have that flavor of, what do you call it, superversion?
Where you're kind of introverted and kind of extroverted?
What do you call that?
Protoversion?
I don't call that a thing, but that's a thing.
You have a name for that, don't you?
Don't you have a name for people who are a mix of introverted and extroverted?
Superversion was the name of the original cable company in my town.
Superversion.
But, yeah, yeah.
Who was I there with?
I was in Portland with somebody.
You met John Doe in Portland.
I met John Doe at Bottom of the Hill, just barely.
Now, I remet him later in a sober environment because he's a friend of a friend, and he was absolutely one of the nicest people ever.
He's super nice.
He's a very...
He's nice, and he seems genuinely interested in whatever your bullshit is.
He's a real good sport.
One of the coolest dudes.
He was very nice to my daughter on several occasions, which made me very happy.
But Colin Malloy, on the other hand.
Well, my friend goes to the bathroom, and I'm not having that thing happen where I go like, wait a minute.
I'm pretty sure that's Colin Malloy.
Where am I?
I'm in Portland.
That could totally be Colin Malloy.
And I made, I think, John, you call it the category error of saying something like,
and i i think he called me gauche but i don't remember oh come on that's a nice call anyway it didn't go great but i you know i didn't comport myself well what did he do what did he do i mean he was very ivy league about it yeah
Yeah, you know what I mean?
Again, we're back to Noblesse Oblige.
Sure.
I mean, when you go to the University of Montana, you have every right.
When you've had a hit like The Barrowman's Bowman, you learn to be very earnest with other people, or The Pirate's Regret.
You think any of those early EPs, you know, Fairy Wing, Listerine, Privateer, any of those are the kinds of songs... Those are guided by Voice's record.
Two, three, four!
Yeah.
uh yeah i've introduced myself to a lot of people when i'm drunk and it has not gone well a lot did you ever do that when you were drinking did you ever introduce yourself no no no i because you know seattle when i was drinking the the whole thing was i don't care who you are of course right so famouses would walk in
and i would go like yeah right that was the absolute biggest response anyone ever got yeah but i was a dick yeah really yeah but i used to work at a newsstand and you know this was back when uh rem the band rem was very popular very big band and uh michael stipe
The first time Michael Stipe came into my store, it was – Is this the newsstand?
Yeah, the newsstand.
That was a store that was either busy or not busy.
Okay.
And when it was busy, there was a line out the door because everybody wanted to buy the New York Times or everybody wanted to get a pack of cigarettes or everybody wanted a stick of gum, something.
Middle of the day.
There's a big line of people and they're all buying stuff and I'm there just ringing them up because I can use a cash register.
And I can also make quick, quippy, how you doing banter with dozens of people all day long.
Just having a good old time.
Yeah.
and then a guy buys something and he walks out and then the next guy up to the counter is this little tiny uh man and i'm ringing him up and then i go like how tiny well pretty small okay pretty small he would fit into a pez dispenser so cute and uh and i conversation fear
I look down at him, and he's like, they airbrushed my face.
Nice pull.
Wow.
I look down, and I go, and I say, oh.
How's it going, buddy?
Box cars are turning out of town.
I said, power lines and floaters, so the airplanes won't get snagged.
I said, what brings you to town?
There's a problem.
Feathers, iron, bargain buildings, weights, and pulleys.
and he he looked up and you know and he was like and and we had a little bubble right because nobody else in the store knew it was him i was the only one he he was doing a very good job of celebrity make yourself invisible the kind of opsec like a like an operative would do maybe you put a stone in your shoes so you walk kind of different you carry yourself different right he just he had his shoulders hunched a little bit he he was able to he could he he was great at
Moving his head in such a way that he was giving just little enough profile to whoever was around him that nobody could quite see him.
I've met him a hundred times since, and he's genius at just...
standing in a room and make and just vibrating at a frequency that he he becomes he seems to when surrounded by an increasing number of people he does actually seem to shrink in size yeah at one time backstage in atlanta he was just surrounded by all of these people who just wanted a fucking piece of him and i swear to god he shrunk eight inches he just seemed like he was just turning into himself
I watched him walk through one of those fancy soap stores where they serve soap like food.
You know the ones I'm talking about?
Sure.
Yeah, no, that's so a thing now.
Yeah.
I was in Vancouver and I'm standing in a lush.
I don't know why I was there.
I think I was there just to see how much the food looked like soap.
And he walked in the door and...
He did a circuit of the store.
I don't think he was looking for soap.
I think he might have been talking on the phone.
Might be an operative.
He went through the store all the way around, not moving fast, just kind of moving, kept moving.
He got out of the way.
He had somebody behind him that I think was a bodyguard.
They walked around the store, and then he went out the door.
And it was like, hmm.
and nobody noticed him nobody noticed it was him the only reason I noticed it was him is that I was in a soap store and I didn't know what I was doing there
He's very good at that.
Anyway, so we had this little moment where I was like, what are you doing in town?
And he was like, oh, you know, just working on some stuff.
And I was like, really?
Well, are you guys going to do anything?
And, you know, making sure not to say, like, are you playing a show or anything musical?
It was just like, what are you doing?
Oh, yeah.
And back and forth.
And he was giving me a winky little smile.
And I was smiling at him.
And we were just having time together.
And then he was like, yeah.
And then he was like, OK, we'll see you later.
You know, like, yeah.
He did the Hodgman.
Yeah.
Catch you on the flip side.
And he was like, zoom out into the world and no one in the store.
And, you know, there was part of me that was like, do you know who that was?
The Stipe exit.
Yeah.
I was like, hey, you guys, you guys.
But I didn't because I was just like.
That was the first time I ever met him.
And I was I was I carried that with me.
I carry it with me to this day.
That's a nice one.
That is a nice one.
If somebody came up and said, said, what are the ones?
What are the what are the five celebrity encounters?
Mm hmm.
I'd say, oh, that first time I met Michael Stipe, there was the time Courtney Love came into the store with two assistants.
They went around the store and found every magazine that had a picture of Courtney Love in it and brought them all up to the front.
Does she know we can see what she's doing?
No, I don't think so.
There was no one else in the store.
It was just the three of them.
It was late at night.
And it was me and Courtney Love and her two friends.
And they were, they spread out around the store and they were shouting at each other like, oh my God, you're in Vogue Paris.
Oh my God, no way.
Oh my God.
And they would, you know, they're yelling at each other and laughing and having just a really conspicuous time.
Yeah.
Whether it was a good time or not, it was very conspicuous.
And they were only performing for me or for one another.
And then, of course, I, being the magazine store guy, I knew every magazine in the store.
I knew which ones had Courtney Love in it.
So I was like, don't forget uncut.
You're on the fucking back page.
Page 48 of W. Model train enthusiast.
I was doing I was basically doing a Kurt Cobain impression.
Everything sucks.
And so then she brought up the what's amazing is she brought all those magazines to the front.
Usually I would expect that then they would leave with nothing and just be like and leave all the magazines on the floor.
You know, like maybe she has a presidential museum.
She's just getting ready to have her own archive somewhere.
I would love to see the closet where Courtney has collected all the magazines with her picture in it, because it would be a big closet.
Not from recently.
No, it's not so much.
It's just a Larry Flynn movie and got a lot of press.
She's pretty good in that.
I like that movie because it had my once upon a time favorite actor, Mr. Guy.
Yeah.
The main guy?
No, the young guy.
The dude.
The one.
The actor that was, for a time, the voice of our generation.
Was it PSH?
It was Aldrin.
PSH.
Paul Circuit.
Paul Saboren.
Paul Saboren Hampton Meister.
You're going to make me look it up.
PSH.
Oh, I know the guy.
That was the year he was in two movies.
He was in that and the jail movie.
I know who you're talking about.
You're talking about Norton.
Edward Norton.
Thank you.
It was a little while there where Edward Norton, I was just like, I'm amazed by this actor.
He was in that and he was in the, no spoilers, but he was in the jail movie.
Same year.
And then he was in the Woody Allen dancing movie.
And then he was in the Fight Club movie also.
Yeah, see, but when I saw him in the Larry Flint movie, I was like, this actor, this actor resembles me and my generation.
Whereas the Courtney Love, I was just like, oh yeah, I know her.
She's the one that brings the magazines.
Yeah.
Anyway, so I went to the Fred Meyer, which is a Kroger's.
Do you have a Kroger's there?
We don't do Kroger's here.
I think it might be one of those things where it's like a best mayonnaise Hellman's mayonnaise thing where it's about unions.
Oh.
You know what I'm saying?
Is that the switcheroo?
It's a union switcheroo?
Ask Reddit.
I don't want to get yelled at.
But I think there's that.
There's what?
Jack in the Box versus Hardee's?
Is that right?
But there's like these... Those two resemble each other?
Well, Jack in the Box is also something else.
Hardee's... No, is it Hardee's?
Jack in the Box?
There's the other one.
Sonic's up in that mix somewhere, I think.
I'm not sure if we have a Sonic.
Anyhow, you went to the Kroger Meyers... Fred Meyer was an old brand in the Northwest that we all call Freddy's.
And Fred Meyer's was a great...
And I think it's one of those things like Nordstrom's where you're not supposed to put an S on it, where it's Fred Meyer, not Fred Meyers.
Oh, yeah.
It's Fred Meyer.
They have a service mark.
I see it.
Yeah.
But we all, for the longest time, said Fred Meyers and Nordstrom's.
Because we remember when those things were like, they belonged to a man named Fred Meyer, or they belonged to a man named John Nordstrom.
Founded in 1931 in Portland, Oregon, where Colin Moore lives.
Freddy's.
Fred's.
Yeah.
So anyway, when I was a little kid, there was a Fred Meyer up the street from our house, and it was the first place...
It was the first store besides 7-Eleven that I went to on my own.
You could ride your bike to Fred Meyer.
Okay.
Fred Meyer was the first place I saw one of the barcode scanners.
Oh, the devil you say.
It was the first place I saw a conveyor belt that moved your groceries.
Wow.
All these things.
First time ever at a Fred Meyer.
There was Fred Meyer across the street from our house in Alaska.
This is all before there was a before Kroger got involved.
I don't know what Kroger in 1999.
So when whatever Kroger is, I don't know.
I don't care.
We have Kroger in Cincinnati.
Kroger is a big Midwest thing.
Oh, OK.
So there it is.
It's a thing where my best friend's mom worked for Kroger.
It's like Martin Marietta or Lockheed Martin Marietta.
Lark, Lockheed Martin Marietta.
Which will soon be Boeing.
Well, just Boeing.
They'll eliminate those other names.
Anyway, I went in and I got into this thing not very long ago.
I went to the Safeway, which is also... No, no.
Safeway's based in Pleasanton and they're still their own jam.
But aren't they connected to something?
Don't they sell some... Oh, Safeway is also... I think Safeway is also Ralph's.
What?
Really?
I think so.
Well, I remember when I saw the Big Lebowski, noting that the way the half and half looked at Ralph's was the same way the half and half was styled at Safeway.
Ah, it's the styling of the half and half.
I'll see.
That's where they get you.
Ralph's.
But Safeway serves a kind of food called Select, Safeway's Select, which is kind of contraindicated.
Like, you don't go to Safeway for, like, finer things.
I'm sorry, I've got to correct this.
I feel terrible.
Oh, my goodness.
They're based in Compton.
Safeway is based in Compton?
No, no.
Pleasanton.
They're out by the BART.
Ralph's is owned by the Kroger Company.
Oh, see.
Founded 1873 by Ralph, I assume.
Kroger, does Kroger own Apple?
They're showing me some Apple products.
I'm going to find out.
So the store was founded, there's a reason there's no apostrophe.
It's founded by George Ralphs.
Oh, really?
George Ralphs.
His name was Ralphs?
His name is George Ralphs.
That's a terrible name.
That's wonderful.
George Ralphs.
George Ralphs.
Who founded Kroger?
Kroger was founded by Bernard Kroger.
Now, who founded Safeway?
Is it Robert Safeway?
No, it's Mr. Safeway.
That was my fault.
Safeway's my fault.
Safeway's monster.
Normally, Safeway select, I eschew.
I eschew Safeway Select because I feel like it's putting on airs.
Oh, it is.
Just call it generic.
If you're just going to go to Safeway and get some Safeway food, Safeway doesn't have to have a better class of food because nobody buys it.
You feel that way about the 365 brand at the Whole Foods?
The proliferation of organic brands is very difficult for me to parse.
I think the parameters are pretty shaky.
Yeah, like what qualifies a chicken?
I bet a lot of that shit has been stepped on hard.
Oh, you mean like baking soda added to it?
Yes, they cut it or cut it with glass.
I mean, do you need an organic banana?
Organic banana.
Organic banana.
They were German.
That was Pink Floyd.
I don't – yeah, I sit and I study the organic stuff, and basically it comes down to like spooky action at a distance.
I feel like which chicken –
is the least polluted chicken here.
And I'm looking around.
I'm standing in a frozen food aisle.
That's a good food to check the pollution of.
Yes.
I sit in the frozen food aisle and I look around and I'm like, I am surrounded by the carcasses of 10,000 chickens.
And some of them have been misused.
Some of them have been abused.
Yes.
Some of them were sad.
Some of them were pumped full of terrible things.
Some of them were massacred.
Some of them were massacred.
And then there's the best chicken in this place.
There's one chicken in this place that had not even a semi-decent life, and it's a chicken chicken.
So, I don't know how you measure the quality of a chicken's life.
Well, but you can sure know when it's not the best chicken.
Right.
By process of elimination.
Like, a real chicken, I think, at one point in its life had to pull an earthworm out of the ground.
Okay.
Okay.
Right?
Okay, yes, yes.
It had to have that... Peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, peck, worm.
Worm.
And it had to have that conflict, that, like, that frisson.
Oh, forged in fire.
Yeah.
right where it was like me versus this worm this chicken this chicken's like a paladin yeah i'm gonna get this worm or the worm is gonna get away but that's those are our options i want a chicken to have had that experience at least okay so with chicken in this in this safe way or this croakers is that chicken and then you're going through these bags and they're like organic organic organic organic
um we got this one over here we got no soup and you know and then of course there and there are 10 000 chickens in here because there are all the like burritos with chicken in it and there are you know like there are a lot of vehicles for delivering chicken where is the nicest chicken place and a lot of the time what ends up happening is i walk out of the store with no chicken no chicken
Because I go, I cannot determine the best chicken in here.
You start thinking about it too much.
Really, I mean.
Right.
And then you're like, is there a chicken in here?
Is this what I want?
Is it chicken that I want?
You got to try that spatchcock, buddy.
You got to find me a spatchcock.
Well, where do you get the chicken?
We get ours from a place called Byrite.
But I'll bet you if you go to your fancy-ish.
Is it R-I-T-E?
Yeah, N-B-I.
Yeah.
It's San Francisco.
Yeah.
change the name to poly well the thing is sometimes you go to the safe you go to the safe way and there's just a whole chicken in a bag and you think well at least full of its toxic juices yeah and you say at least that chicken is still whole at least they didn't throw it into like sitting there marinating and sick you know maybe or or delicious juices soy or something yeah
I mean, soy conceals a multitude of sins.
Does it?
I didn't know that.
Well, it's very salty.
Safeway was founded.
This is a pretty baller name.
Safeway was founded in April 1915 by Marion Barton Skaggs.
That's a pretty good name.
No, wait a minute.
Skaggs.
Is that Skaggs Albertsons also?
Oh, is it Ricky Skaggs?
Because, you know, no, because, you know, Albertsons, at least in Florida, used to be called Skaggs Albertsons.
I did not know that.
And then Albertsons, you also, what's the partner of Albertsons?
Albertsons is also, uh, he thought of Albertsons.
Wigglypiggly.
Wigglypiggly.
I think maybe Safeway, did Safeway buy it?
My mom's good.
She got me out.
Cafeteria Harrison Elementary.
I don't know.
Albertsons is somewhat new to me.
I remember the first time I saw an Albertsons and I was like, what is that?
A Safeway with somebody else's name.
2015 merger with Safeway.
Jeez Louise.
John, pretty soon there's going to be one chicken.
There it is.
Albertsons Safeway.
They're running chickens.
They're running chickens over the border.
Albertson subsidiaries.
Let's see.
You've got Safeway, Acme Markets, Shaw's.
Wow.
Shaw's and Star Market.
Vons, Tom Thumb.
I've seen a Shaw's.
I've seen a Shaw's.
Tom Thumb, Randall's.
Oh, Jewel Osco.
I think that is an Illinois thing.
Those are all Midwest Southern things, I think.
Jewel Osco, I'm pretty sure, is an Illinois thing.
Yeah, well, you know, like the number of times that I have gone to a grocery store in Illinois is somewhat limited.
You know, there are a lot of states I've been to a thousand times but have never had cause to go to a grocery store.
Yes.
Right?
Absolutely.
If you're traveling, what are you going to do?
Why the fuck would you go to a grocery store?
What are you going to do?
Are you going to buy chicken, take it back to your room?
Do I want spaghetti five-way?
Yeah, I do, but I'm not going to get it at a grocery store.
Yes.
And that's not even Illinois.
Skylines.
At least Skyline used to be.
40 years ago, Skyline was good for that.
I don't know anymore.
Did I tell you that one time at Bonnaroo, I was leaving Bonnaroo and Ricky Skaggs' tour bus hit a guy that was running across the street?
You saw that happen?
It happened right in front of me, but I didn't actually see it.
It wasn't the titular Skaggs.
It was probably somebody who worked for him, right?
Well, I think Skaggs was on the bus.
I think it was a thing where somebody was on drugs and they ran across the freeway in the middle of the night, and the bus was just on its way.
Ricky Skaggs had played the show.
They hit a druggie with their bus?
Yeah, they hit a druggie, and it was like, oh, we're so sorry, but you know.
My bad.
this is one of those things don't run across the freeway in the middle of the night don't get baked upon a room start running around by the buses that's the thing and if you're on if you're so on drugs that you can't avoid a bus yeah it's like yeah it's like in dragnet right so the sky is green and i'm a tree that kind of thing is that a thing yeah yeah did you ever see the dragnet where the guy's tripping
oh i know what you're talking about you're talking about a 60s television level right where the guy's like whoa man don't don't bum me out with your heavy vibe it's real bad it's real bad like it's worse than the mosquitoes on gilligan's island for sure is is it worse than mickey rooney and uh let's go right me i must protest
You know, that is not aged super duper well.
No, it's not good.
It's an example.
What's great about that, though, if memory serves, you got this little guy, you got this little former child star, and he's wearing garb in the Japanese style.
I feel like he had a top knot, but he probably didn't.
But he definitely had ching-chong eyes, and didn't they put big teeth in him?
Yeah, big teeth.
Oh, come on.
Let's go right, Ree.
That's some ping pong, John.
I think they taped his eyelids back so that they... Yeah, really good.
I see here that you've sent me five musicians to whom I've drunkenly introduced myself.
Yes.
One being Carl Newman, also an extremely nice guy, also very awkward to walk up.
You know what?
I give up.
I don't think I'm ever going to be friends with Carl Newman.
I don't think I'm going to make it work.
I don't know how to make it work.
John Doe, Bottom of the Hill, X was playing.
And he was nice about it.
Big show in small venues.
Shh.
The problem with all of these stories is I always have an anecdote.
So Sharky from Creeper Lagoon, I had an anecdote.
Sure.
Lois, I had an anecdote.
I mainly want to compliment her on her cover of the Small Factory song, Valentine.
And then, of course, you know, I talked to Brent Nelson about heroin.
So was it Brent Nelson or Brett Nelson that you met?
Shit, did I get the wrong one?
The bass guy on the first record.
because they were both in the band oh shit yeah i think it's brent brent was on it was on the first record yeah yeah the bass guy and then brent joined later no this is brent and it was the one where they look like they're doing uh an owen mills photo on the cover yeah did i tell you there was a time i was i just want to talk about three years ago today and he want to talk about how difficult it was to take lots of heroin
oh i felt bad for him he was really trying to stop i think and i didn't bring it up but you know i've been drinking so hey i'm talking to the guy from built the spill and he wanted to talk about uh being on heroin he super did carl newman boy that was a heartbreaker uh what's the one really nice place here in town i used to go to shows that they sometimes have sit downs you guys have played there the wrens played there
What's the middle-sized club?
The nice one.
Bimbos.
Bimbos, yeah.
Bimbos 365.
Standing in the back.
I think he was... No, it was Great American.
He was a Great American.
He's standing in the back, and it's fucking Carl Newman from fucking Zumpano.
And I walk over, and I'm like, Hey!
I've really been fouled and gone through changes.
You guys are really...
My friend gave me a new record.
You're the guy from The Simpsons.
I know that's what I sounded like to poor, introverted, fucking Canadian Carl Newman.
Yeah, he just wants to have a nice, soft, quiet conversation.
I want him to know he's loved.
And I know that crushes people to know that they're loved.
I want him to know that he is loved.
I still listen to Zumpano, and I want him to know it.
Not for me, but for him.
Yeah, he just wants to get out of there...
god damn it carl hit me up man what's gonna happen here you might be listening no i i have rolled up on doug marsh so many times tell me about doug marsh what's he like like in the flesh he is like talking to a log that hates you he's like half a snipe
And so he has no twinkle.
He gives you no little smile.
I've walked up to him and just been like, hey, so anyway.
Your guitar's really good.
So like, I'm John.
We know like a lot of people in common.
You had the same producer.
A thousand people in common?
You were produced by his producer for your Western State Hurricanes cassette.
Oh, who knows how many connections there are.
No, his name is Casey.
What's the guy's name?
Hi, I'm Phil Ecke.
Phil Ecke.
The problem is Phil Ecke and I have had a falling out a long time ago.
Now Phil Ecke is mad at me for some dumb reason.
Is this during the sub-pop years?
Oh, no, no, no.
Later, later, later.
Okay.
I just want to say two things to each other.
Just like, hey, man, how's it going?
And I just want him to say, oh, what's up?
Or best possible would be like, what's up, John?
Or no, no, no.
Best possible would be like, oh, what's up, John?
Hey, what's up?
I like those long winners records that would be I would float out of there.
I would I would be like on She could like grow up on some bump family players though It'd be nice if he goes like you don't be nice.
Okay here.
I'll tell you would be nice.
I'll be Doug Marsh You know John
hi i think the worst you can do is harm is highly underrated oh thank you but i go all the way back to the bun family players oh come on you do not i don't want to make it weird but you
What was the band you used to practice with by the Richard Hugo House?
What was that band?
That was the Western State Hurricanes.
Oh, shit, dawg!
I'm embarrassed to mention this, but Phil Eck also produced some stuff from the band.
I don't know if you've heard of the band, but I'm in a band right now.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
This is so weird for me.
I'm a big fan.
Oh, come on, man.
You never heard our stuff, man.
The first record, I loved it.
I loved all the records until... Really?
to get weird sometime in the mid-2000s, but yeah.
You were the 90s to me, man.
You were the 90s.
I would tell people from other states about Built to Spill, and they'd be like, what is that?
They sound like the Flaming Lips, and I would say, they don't sound anything like the Flaming Lips.
And we would get into huge arguments.
I remember yelling at the guy from Babe the Blue Ox, because he was like, oh.
I love that band.
They sound like the Flaming Lips.
I was like, they don't at all sound like the Flaming Lips, but this was a long time ago.
Babe the Blue Ox were good.
They stayed at my house one time.
I feel like they know it was Fiddlehead that stayed at my house that time.
It wasn't Babe the Blue Ox.
But yes, no, I was a Babe the Blue Ox super fan.
And that was from the era of some truly great power trios.
There were a lot of fucking really good three-person bands.
I'm not talking about three people plus a singer.
I'm talking about the singers in the band.
Right.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Three-piece bands is what I'm saying.
Three-piece bands.
That's right.
Singer plays guitar.
And then there's a bass player and a drummer.
So when you... You know, my first Carl Newman story was somebody came up to me at the Bowery Ballroom and said, you know, Carl Newman's here.
And I was a long winter show and they were like, yeah, apparently he's a fan of the band.
And I was like, no, man.
And then every subsequent interaction with him was great until until until there was some kind of Twitter thing where I bet you got in a fight with Nico Case.
Well, Nico Case does not like me.
Okay.
That does not super schmooper surprise me.
No, no, no, no.
She seems like she could hold a grudge.
And her liquor.
She was a big fan of one of my ex-girlfriends who ended up not being a big fan of me.
See, that happens.
And then her manager, her road manager...
Has a lot of experience with me, too.
Yeah, yeah.
It's like the Green Book, but for John.
Yeah, she was getting a lot of information about me.
Yeah, I wasn't there to, like, explain and say, like, well, but, you know, sure, yes.
But you weren't there to provide context.
Yes, and, right?
All the things that these people are saying are true, technically, but also and also.
Yeah.
So, no, Nico doesn't like me.
And I don't know whether that affects Carl that much.
But I think there was a thing on Twitter.
There was a thing briefly...
where people picked sides and i wasn't sure what's why i wasn't sure what people were picking sides i'm talking about rock and roll people no i understand i know it's real i i know it's real now on different sides of a thing i don't understand there was a there was a thing and i involved john worcester somehow and i don't i don't know like is he problematic don't we like john worcester oh he's very problematic to me at least really
I was at a wedding with him one time, and I did not deign to say hello.
You did not deign?
Because there was a thing.
Because there had been a thing.
I think it was initiated by him.
And he wanted to be like, hey, what's up, man?
And I was like, I don't think so.
Oh, no, John.
He was in Super Chunk.
Talking to the hand.
He's still in Super Chunk.
Talking to the hand.
He's in the other band, too.
Bob Mould band.
His new record's pretty good.
And he's in the Goat band, as well.
yeah i don't know what that is oh no no no i know that one i know the one the goat band yeah yeah yeah he's in that band although that's just the definition of band yeah the mountain goats like is that a band craig finn craig finn has a new album yeah did i ever tell you the story about me and craig finn i don't want to hear it please i think i'm gonna say you did i'm gonna say you did and it was a great story don't tell me i can't i can't handle it what about you got a good story i bet he's nice
Old is kind of like talking to to Doug Marsh.
It's like talking to Bob Moodle's a little bit like talking to Emmanuel about Fortran.
Yeah.
I could imagine him pausing and just going beep boop.
He seems like he's nice in the sense that he doesn't want to hurt anybody.
Did you listen to or read his memoir?
It's a good book.
I don't think that Black Francis would be very fun to talk to.
No.
Oh.
Well, I bet you Black Francis is better than Frank Black.
Sure.
I'll bet.
Well, he's a little bit looser.
He seems like a little bit of a live wire, a little bit of a pistol, a little bit.
You know what I mean?
I just saw them.
I just saw them play, hey, come on, pilgrim all the way through.
She got a new haircut.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like her new haircut.
Same as the old haircut.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so you're going to ruin this for me.
So a long time ago.
Long time ago.
Long, long time.
Oh, this happened also at Bonnaroo.
I saw them.
I saw them.
The band.
Their band.
The Hold Steady.
The Hold Steady.
No, it's not Lift or Pull or it's Hold Steady.
No, no, no.
Lift or Pull.
And the thing is, I can't say dated, but I knew, let's say knew.
Oh, boy.
Knew in italics.
A girl from Milwaukee.
who had been a super big lifter puller fan.
Okay.
And very early on, I'm talking about like 2000, she had a juggalo tattoo.
Oh.
And I was like, why the fuck do you have a juggalo tattoo?
And she said, it's ironic.
Oh.
And I said, now I think back and I'm like, the year 2000, she has an ironic tattoo.
I think a shirt can be ironic.
I don't know if a tattoo can be ironic.
Well, that was what I had to say.
But she did not seem to be a juggalette in any way, shape, or form.
But she got the little hatchet man tattoo.
Okay.
And she was like, it's ironic.
Okay.
I was like, maybe in Milwaukee things are different.
But so she was a big lifter-puller fan then.
And, like, was always talking to me about lifter polar whenever I was in Milwaukee.
And I was like, I don't know what that is.
But then later...
the hold steady came out and she contacted me and she was like that's the guy from lifter polar and i was like oh right okay so i listened to it and they were they get they became very popular very fast with people like merlin mann who are i still i still like him a lot i know i know so i was at bonnaroo now just wait i don't have any anecdote about him except that they just make me happy it's just a short it's a short long story all right so i'm there at bonnaroo and i go over and i'm writing i was writing for cmj
They hired me to go to Bonnaroo and write about Bonnaroo.
And all I had was a T9 phone.
So I was writing all my articles in T9.
I would just sit in the audience and I would just be like, I would write this article.
And I had somehow the technology to send these, I don't know what they were, whether I sent them as texts or I sent them as mails.
But I was just – I was really good at T9.
So I was like, I'm here at the show, and it's a very good show, and I like this – I like Andrew Bird because he takes some risks, and he's a weird guy.
He's kind of a hippie, but also – I like Andrew Bird.
Yeah, yeah.
He's very good.
He's very talented.
So I walk over to the Hold Steady.
And I already am mad.
I'm mad because of the girl with the juggalo tattoo from who liked Lifter Puller.
And I'm mad because they are getting really good press.
And it's the same press that Colin Malloy got, which is these guys are the smartest band on the scene with lots of smarty, smart lyrics and only smart people like them.
And they are smart.
And I've always hated those bands because they were stealing all those accolades that I felt belonged to me.
And so I walked over there.
You didn't invite them into that vertical, but there they are.
They came in and now I'm not even in it.
It used to be your party.
And so I'm standing there and I'm watching them.
And I'm like, this sounds like Bruce Springsteen.
Oh, God.
And then I'm watching it some more, and I'm like, this really sounds like Bruce Springsteen.
Well, yes, and.
And so I'm like, well, so everybody here is going crazy off of this, and it sounds like Bruce Springsteen, and that feels to me like an East Coast thing.
Like East Coast people, Bruce Springsteen is like Billy Joel.
He means something different to people from Long Island or New Jersey.
It always comes back to Billy Joel, doesn't it?
Well, it does.
It does.
Because the first time I went to— He's complex.
You can see he's holding a mask.
There's a lot to him.
The first time I went to New York and somebody was talking to me about Jerry Garcia, I was like, what are you talking about?
The Grateful Dead doesn't belong to you guys.
He's not from over here.
He's from over where we are.
And they were like, there are more deadheads in New York than anywhere in the world.
And I could not fathom it.
I was like, what do you even do with deadness over here in New York?
It doesn't belong here.
They were like, wrong.
Grateful Dead super big in on the East Coast so that was hard for me to grasp but I whenever I meet somebody from Washington that's really into Billy Joel I'm like did you grow up on the East Coast is that a thing that you learned from someone from the East Coast Billy Joel is not generally something that a modern person gets into at age 29
It would be rare that somebody would put on We Didn't Start the Fire that was like 27.
Although, you know, who knows?
Big shot, yeah.
So I'm watching, you know, yeah.
Some of it's great, although, no, corny, but also great.
Have you heard this jam, Allentown?
They're closing all the factories down.
That is a great jam.
I really like it, except you can't literally hang a graduation on the wall.
That doesn't make sense.
You would hang a diploma on the wall.
I will go to bat for that song.
I will go to bat for Allentown.
It's a good pop jam.
Oh, it's more than that.
The arrangement of it's so good.
It's an indictment of the decline of American industry, man.
Almost as much as 9 to 5.
Now that's a union song.
Talk about what a way to make a living.
Have you ever considered that 9 to 5 and A Day in the Life are versions of the same song?
They're about a morning's journey.
The middle 16 of Day in the Life.
Two.
Three.
Oh.
That's a great bass part.
Well, you know what else?
They're both practically in March time.
They're both in really fast pronounced four-four.
Anyway, so I'm in the audience.
I'm watching this.
I'm watching Lipter Puller, and they sound like Bruce Springsteen.
Hold steady.
And Mr. Guy is jumping around, and he kind of— He spits a lot.
He's a big spitter.
He spits any points.
He's doing this thing.
He's doing his thing, and then they're doing their thing.
And nobody looks like a rock star or even a musician.
They just live.
They look like a bunch of people that just live.
God, the keyboard player totally looks like a musician.
He's got a mustache.
The keyboard player looks like a musician.
That's the biggest indictment.
It's like that one band where the bass player is a goth Interpol.
The bass player looks like a musician in a different band than the other guys, and the other guys just look like a jam band.
and then here comes here comes you know i'm writing on my t9 phone that album's like 17 years old now and i say here's what i say here's what i write about uh the whole study i say it looks like a bunch of guys at an office party
Where they figure out that five of them all played an instrument in college, and they throw a band together, and then the funny guy from the office raps out of the employee handbook.
i'm from amalgamated central and i'm here to say and so i thought that was funny it's funny but mean this was back in the time this was back in the time when i didn't care about being mean i didn't realize i got yelled at one time because that guy um
That guy, what's his name?
What's his name?
Citizen Cope.
Julian Cope?
Citizen Cope, who's a guy.
He's like a guy that does some kind of blues.
But not blues.
It's like something.
I don't know what to call it.
But I was playing a show with him in New York at the Mercury Lounge.
And Michel Indigolo Cello was his bass player for some reason.
Wow.
And I was a big fan of her.
She plays bass good.
She does.
And I was like, you're amazing.
I just wanted to say that I'm a fan.
And she was the nicest person.
She was like, oh, wow, thanks so much.
And she like took me over and had a conversation with me, like said, here, come over here and we'll talk while I'm calling my cables or whatever.
And I was like, wow, you're just something else.
I don't know why you're playing with Citizen Cope.
She was like, oh, well, it's a thing that I'm doing.
It's just a guy.
Anyway, he was a guy who throughout the whole soundcheck was really fussy in particular about what was going on in the soundcheck.
and he was talking to his people like um yeah well can i get more you know what i need is like more you know can you notch the 4k and can you take out like 11d12 and put in this you know he's just bitching at everybody in this kind of amazing didn't they tell you to put a limiter on that and then the show starts and i go to watch the show and he comes out and he's like
And I was like, wait a minute, that's not how you talk.
And through the entire show, he was just like, yo, yo, anyway, so like this is my next tune.
I would call that black mouth.
It's like black face, but for your voice.
It was like almost mush mouth.
And I couldn't believe it.
And so I became an instant enemy of him forever.
But anyway, one time I said something catty about him, like kind of like I'm doing now.
And his manager wrote me and was like, how dare you speak ill of another musician?
Have you no class, sir?
Do you not realize that we are a special guild of otherworldly people who, you know, good luck to all bands.
That should be everyone's premise.
And I realized like, oh shit, 98% of all musicians, you know, like pursue that dictum.
right right right do not talk shit about other bands because no like the critics are on this side of the wall and we are on that side and never the twain shall meet if you meet a critic in the world you are you should spit on their shoes they have a bad job perfidious disloyal yes right
And so if you see something behind the scenes, if you see Third Eye Blind has another guitar player behind a curtain.
Yes.
Who's actually good.
Oh, it's K-Fabie.
If you see something, say nothing.
Say nothing.
Right.
Say nothing.
Yes.
So anyway, so I said this about Hulk.
And I pushed send.
And it went to CMJ.
And of course, CMJ bold faced it.
Like put it in one of those boxes over to the side.
I think they put it like a pull quote.
Yeah, a pull quote like because a it was hilarious be not 100% wrong.
This is hold steady.
This is hold steady.
Okay.
Well, then very shortly after that, I realized, oh, shit.
One day I'm going to be in a room.
withhold steady because we're not that far apart culturally.
And this is not a thing they can possibly have avoided seeing because I also at that time in my life, I saw everything everybody wrote about me.
Sure.
Right.
And they're not so big that they're like not seeing what people are writing.
Maybe they thought it was funny.
One hopes, but I feared not.
And so over the years, this was years ago.
Yeah.
Over the years, I was sure that Hold Steady were mad at me.
And it was that kind of choosing sides vibe.
where it's like oh shit like new pornographers used to be i used to feel like we were on the same side but then something happened i think with nico case and now i feel like carl carl doesn't fave my stuff like you used to carl doesn't like respond he responded to something the other day but you know like i feel like oh there's some there's something missing now there's attention yeah he's got he's gotten very political
Well, that's the other thing.
Yeah.
I think he's in a resistance now.
He's Canadian and that is, they all are something.
They're all radicalized up there.
Anyway, so Holt Steady just felt like this thing where it was like they're right over there.
They're just right across the street.
You're like a step and a half.
It's like you and they say you're always three feet from a spider.
You're a step and a half away from Holt Steady all the time.
All the time.
And they're peering at me out of their curtains, but they have the advantage.
There's also more of them than you.
There are.
And they also are like, you know, they put on a little bit of like, we're some tough kids from Milwaukee.
Mm-hmm.
Anyway, so this year.
Something happened?
Yeah, so this year.
Oh, shit.
Just a month ago, I'm at the last waltz show that I do every year in Port Chester, New York.
And I play the Neil Diamond character in the last waltz.
I do it every year.
It's put on by my friend Ramey, who lives in San Francisco.
And I'm there.
And every year there's a cast of people that are in it every year.
Just for our listeners, you go and you reenact the last show of the band here in San Francisco in 1970.
Diddly what?
Six?
Yeah, that's right.
And you play like you do.
There's all the hilarious in the movie.
It's hilarious.
All the walk-ons.
You get Joni Mitchell.
You get Neil Diamond.
You get Neil Young with a booger full of Coke.
But you reenact the show basically.
We reenact it all the way through.
And she shall be released.
Nels Klein comes and plays every year.
And Eric Johnson from the Fruit Bats is there every year.
But then there are also rotating cast where every year it's somebody from Dr. Dog or it's somebody from some band that's popular now that I hadn't heard of yet.
The Parkington sister.
Dr. Dog, are you being silly?
No, no, no.
Dr. Dog, the people in Dr. Dog played a big band.
Oh shit, okay.
It's different from Paw Patrol, though.
That's different from Paw Patrol.
And I don't think... Yeah, there are a lot of bands that you would think were on this show and have never been, but there are also some bands or some artists where you're like, whoa.
It's not a surprise that Mojo Nixon is on it or that, for instance, what's his name?
His dad... His mom died in 9-11 and... Pete Davidson?
No.
His dad was in Psycho.
Andrew, no, Anthony.
Oh, Anthony Perkins?
Yeah, so Elvis Perkins.
Oh, okay.
He's been on there a few times.
Anyway, so this year, and it's a big clusterfuck of people.
It's really fun.
Everybody's kind of groovy.
It's a big groovy show.
And I'm standing there in the backstage, and a guy walks by.
And I went, was that Craig Phelps?
And so I'm like, I'm looking out of the corner of my eye and he walks by again and it is Craig Finn and he's looking at me out of the corner of his eye.
And I'm like, shit, that's fucking Craig Finn.
Is he on the show this year?
So I pull up the piece of paper and I'm like, oh my God, Craig Finn is on the show this year.
Why did I not read any of the emails?
A, which is a thing I say all the time.
Oh fuck, why didn't I read any of the emails?
And now I'm like,
Eek, it's happened.
It's happened.
And then he walks by again and he is giving me the side eye big time.
And I'm like, fuck, he knows.
He knows it's me.
He knows it's me.
And he has also, he has given me enough of a side eye that he knows it's me enough that he's been waiting for this day.
Oh, God.
and i'm like damn damn damn damn damn damn damn so i'm there i'm with and oh and i brought jonathan colton to the show first year every every year i spend thanksgiving with him but he's never come to the show because he's always busy making gravy yeah but this year he's like i'll come to the show so he comes to the show and i'm like is that craig finn i don't even think he knows who hold steady are
So he's no help, but he's like helping me determine what I'm like.
I'm not going to look at him.
Is he looking at me?
And Jonathan Colton is like, he's definitely looking at you.
So now he goes up.
Craig Finn goes up one staircase in the venue.
I make a point to go up the other staircase because I'm like, I don't know what this is.
What kind of showdown is this going to be?
We're both like middle aged.
Yeah.
And I said, though, I said that thing about reading out of the employee binder like.
10 years ago 15 years ago it was 15 years ago it was 2005 or 6 that was you you'd be steaming no it was 10 I was 10 years ago but you'd still be sitting on it oh I'd be mad I would still be mad so anyway we're walking around we're doing the show doing the show he gets up he does one of the first songs and I watch him and it's great and I'm feeling terrible I'm just feeling terrible oh no
and then i'm going down a staircase and all of a sudden worst fear he comes around the corner coming up the staircase and i'm going down the staircase and we there's and i nobody's with me and nobody's with him and we just there's no avoiding and he starts off hey are you are you john and i was like hey craig
Craig Craig you know hi hi uh hello and he's like hey and then he says are you still in Seattle and I'm like oh oh no like he's now he knows more than he knows he has some he knows more or he knows less which would be bad too oh yeah but he has some facts at least yeah like I was like are you from Milwaukee I don't know
And I said, yes, I'm in Seattle.
And then he's like, well, nice to finally meet you.
And I'm like, wow, it's so funny that we've never met before.
And he's like, I know, right?
And then he says, you're sober, right?
And I was like, wow.
He knows facts.
Oh, he sure does.
And I was like, I am.
And he was like, oh, yeah, I was just wondering, you know, that, you know, a thing, you know, something.
He says something, something, something.
He's kind of just laying.
He's just laying out some ground.
And I'm like, so now we're, now there's, now we're leaning.
Are you worried he's doing a little bit of a harming on you?
Like he's just going to keep this going as long as he can?
Yes.
I'm definitely worried that he's going to say like, so what shows exactly do you like?
Yeah.
You like office bands?
So I'm being really careful to not be like, I'm a super big fan.
You know, I'm like.
You've made that mistake.
I have.
And so I was I'm tiptoeing around how to say, like, I totally know who you are and I totally have been dreading this.
And also, like, I was underpaid by a magazine to say something mean.
Yeah, they gave me fifty dollars and I was writing on a T9 phone.
But I want to be your friend.
I want to be nice.
I'm sorry that I was ever mean.
I used to be mean.
Actually, I'm still mean, but I never think about the consequences.
But now you lose sleepover, which is an improvement.
Well, and it's just like, ah, yes.
And so, so we, so we, so we're standing there.
We're now we're leaning against the wall.
Now people are coming up and down the stairs and we're two people that are kind of in the way because we're having a congenial conversation.
And he's like, why, you know,
I've always wanted to ask you some questions.
And he starts just asking me like normal ish questions.
He's like he's like a prosecutor.
Well, and it's like here we are.
And what he is, he's treating this event as like two lead singers of two popular bands from a certain time.
One of whom him is more popular, but he's kind of doing the thing that Carl Newman did to me, which is like, yes, I'm a big star, but I'm actually a fan of what you do.
And there are a lot of people listening to the show who are like, neither of these guys are big stars.
I've never heard of either of them.
A big star is Drake.
And you're right.
You're absolutely right.
None of these people are big stars.
We're all just we're all just in the primordial soup.
But from within the Primordial Soup, the difference between selling 50,000 records and 150,000 records is a big deal.
Well, also, I mean, I'll take you off topic, but maybe their pie slice is not as broad as Drake's, but it's very deep.
The people who like these bands like them a lot.
They like them a lot.
That's right.
The people that like the Mountain Goats are weird.
Weird.
Weirdos.
But there are a lot of them.
But they're deep in it.
You are one of those.
But you are a weirdo for a lot of reasons, not just because you like that.
No, I know.
You're right.
Anyway, so then we talk for a while.
There is no tension at all.
It just feels like I had bumped into the lead singer of Clap Your Hands Say Yeah.
who I also met at a thing.
And I think I'd also said something mean about them.
And he and I became super tight, like stay in touch almost level of tight.
And so anyway, so we talk and then something happens or it's like I have to go on stage or something.
And it's like, well, let's catch up later.
Okay, great.
We do some finger pointing, like kapow.
And then we split up and I go out and I do something.
And the whole time I'm like, when is the other shoe going to fall?
When is he going to harm me?
When is he going to catch me in something?
Over the course of the night, we bump into each other like six more times.
And each time he's a little drunker.
And each time it is even friendlier.
Oh, okay.
Friendlier and friendlier.
Until toward the end of the night where we have sequestered ourselves in the corner and
And we're having some heavy-duty conversation about what it's like to suffer.
And we're over there, and he's like, suffering, am I right?
And I'm like, you are so right.
I, too, have suffered, my friend.
And he's like, yes.
He says, who's your CO?
And I say, ain't you?
We go all the way.
Mm-hmm.
Then he says at the very end of the night.
He's like, can I get your number?
We should do something sometime Be nice if you can enjoy this but sure you're still waiting for the sock full of pennies.
I'm waiting but I'm also like I mean I
OK, so if you could say publicly, I don't know if it's weird to say, did you like him and get along?
Oh, I liked him a lot.
He seemed like a cool guy.
Super smart, super, super sensitive guy.
He actually.
He's nasty.
I think he really is.
I think he he's like, I mean, he wrote a song about John Berryman.
He's he's like he's a he's a smart guy, but he was amiable to chat with.
I mean, more than amiable, he was like ready to go deep, which is rare.
That's a turn on.
I really like that.
Yeah.
So we're deep.
We're all the way in.
And he's like, we should do something sometime.
Like we should collaborate on something.
And I'm like, holy shit, you're paying me all this respect.
Is this actually a case where you thought that was a funny line or you didn't even see it?
Or you didn't know he didn't make the connection.
Probably.
Right.
Yeah.
You're actually a Long Winters fan.
Is that like is that because he oh, throughout the whole day, he's dropping all this like he's dropping into conversation.
This kind of flattering knowledge.
Hmm.
That he's dropping in in that way that you do when you want to find somebody that you like.
In a better universe, you'd be able to appreciate this.
Well, so I'm trying.
I'm to that point.
I'm to the point where I'm like, are we friends?
Because I'm into it.
I'm fine.
Let's be friends.
And now I've got your phone number.
And so at the end, there's like a convivial hug of fraternity.
There's a like promise to keep in touch.
There's all the things that you would.
There's never a Harman.
No shoe ever drops.
Really?
And so I go home that night and I Google best hold steady lyrics because I know everybody loves his lyrics.
And I was coming into this blind and
And so I'm like, best hold steady lyrics.
Give it to me, Internet.
Like, lay it out.
I know somebody has done a – some 10,000 people have done a website that are like, here are the best hold steady lyrics.
And so I read all these hold steady lyrics.
Now, I have no context for them musically.
I'm not listening to the songs.
I'm just reading the lyrics.
And they are good.
They're very good.
It's a big world, girl, and I can't understand it.
We're tiny white specks in a bright blue planet.
Baby, take off your beret.
Everyone's a critic, and most people are DJs.
He's a good writer.
There's a lot going on.
Yes.
And also, there's a lot of suffering in the songs.
The lyrics are, there's a ton of, like, hurts.
But it's not all just boohoo me.
No, no, no.
He writes about people who are, yeah, very conflicted.
There's hurt and pain, but there's also, it's literary.
And this was a problem that I used to have with LCD sound system.
Where the fuck did they come from?
What the hell?
Why do they do?
Why are they selling out the Madison?
Like, I don't know.
I'm not sure.
That's your yardstick.
I don't think.
They're legitimately really good things.
I was watching a show while he was playing, and he walked back.
I was standing on the side of the stage.
He walked back, and he pretended he did the thing where a producer would reach down, and you'd say, like, can I get a little more guitar?
And they'd reach down and touch a knob.
Just tap a fader.
And you would say, like, I'm sitting right here.
I saw that you did not touch that knob.
Or you touched it, but you didn't move it.
And the producer's like, oh no, I just turned up the guitar.
And I was like, you didn't, I'm sitting right here.
So he walked back, a guy from the LCD sound system, walked back in the middle of the show and he like adjusted a knob on the bass player's amp.
He went back and did something.
He had a look on his face like, not quite.
And went and changed the bass player's setting on his amp.
And I was like, that's the craziest thing I've ever seen.
That is great.
That's some Viking shit.
But it's heavy.
You don't turn another man's knob.
No, but it was a way of saying, I am in 100% control of what is happening on this stage.
And everyone here is doing...
what i tell them because i can even change their shit and you never do that eric corson would hit me so hard with his bass oh really he'd kick me right off the stage he's like he's like you wouldn't stop the band the van somebody had to pee
Well, no, you don't get to pee if we're on the way into Detroit.
You should have thought of that at Hardee's.
You pee back at the beginning, not when we're in, like, combat mode.
Okay.
Come on.
Yes.
But, you know, I mean, I can turn around on stage and say to Eric, what the fuck about your bass?
You wouldn't go over and just, like, change a little screw on Nabeel's hi-hat.
No, because it would be like walking into somebody's underpants.
Anyway, so about a week goes by.
Oh, God.
This is really stressing me out.
About a week goes by, and I see that Craig Finn is playing with Ben Gibbard at a Frightened Rabbit funeral service in New York City.
And Ben was good friends with Frightened Rabbit guys.
Mm-hmm.
And I know he was hard hit by his suicide because we texted about it at the time where it was just like, oh, fuck, this is really hitting us.
And so then I was like, well, what's Craig Finn's connection to Pride Rabbit?
And I Googled that and I saw that they had also played together and had made pals.
And so now I'm in a situation where Craig Finn is playing a show.
with ben gibbard my friend and now i feel like and now i feel like i have to send a text to my new friend who whose phone number i have that and we have not texted each other since the let's you're gonna you're gonna initiate the contact that's me i'm gonna initiate this contact right now
And it's going to be about a mutual love of Scott Hutchinson.
And it's going to be about a...
It's going to be about like, hey, you're about to hang out with a buddy of mine.
Why don't you guys make us?
Why don't you do a Merlin man and walk up to Colin Malloy and drunkenly say John Roderick to him and see what happens.
See if you get if you get the high hat.
I hope you get better luck than I did.
And so I write him.
Hey, man, you know, like and this is oh, I'm taking a risk here.
Like I was at a wedding the other day and the lead singer of the National was there.
Mm hmm.
And we were introduced to each other.
And I was like, there's a lot of stuff I could say to you, sir, about the friends we have in common.
I am not going to pretend that I like the national.
You know, that one gal.
Not going to say a word.
Don't you know Miku Case?
Joel, Joel.
He meets me.
He puts his hand out and meets me.
He's wearing an ascot, a fucking ascot.
Yeah.
He meets me and he's very – on stage he seems very quiet and reserved, but he's one of these that you're talking about, the sex-troverts or whatever, where he's looking like he's the king of the party.
And I'm like, hey, man – or somebody introduces us.
Oh, you guys know each other, right?
And I was like, no, I don't think we do.
And he met me like I was one of the waiters.
Like, oh, hey, nice to meet you.
And I was like, fuck.
That would have been one where I wished he would have said, hey, big fan or whatever.
But he didn't.
Anyway, so I text Craig Finn.
This is brutal.
And I'm really taking a risk here.
This is so brutal.
And I'm like way out on a limb.
And I'm like, hey, you know, I'm trying not to be like, I'm trying not to be, well, I don't know what I'm saying.
I think you're not supposed to call him for five, like three to five days after.
No, this is like two weeks later or something.
It's the rules.
And I'm trying, it's super, I'm just threading about 50 needles, like, hey, man.
It's a hey, man text.
Okay.
Okay.
And he writes back a kind of super fine and super agreeable, but also what reads to me as slightly terse.
Sort of like.
Uh, well, here, let's see if I can find it.
Oh, no, no, no, no, no.
Oh, wait.
How do you spell Craig?
A-I-G.
Oh, there it is.
Oh, oh, wait.
No, no, no.
So I say, it was good finally meeting you at the last Waltz.
I hope we can stay in touch.
I see you're playing a show with my friend Ted Leo.
Oh, oh, so I referenced Ted Leo, not Ben Gibbard.
So I went deep.
I went on the other side.
Yeah.
It's like, no, no, no.
You know, like Ted.
Right.
Because we are all in.
We're in touch.
Can we stipulate that Ted's okay?
It's great.
Okay.
I mean.
Oh, come on.
But he's great.
Oh, my God.
In spite of all the things.
Anyway, I say the three of us in a room would have some things to talk about for sure.
Oh, so I'm just like, let's get this talking.
Let's make talking happen.
And he writes back, yes, so great to meet you.
No comma after yes.
And the letter U instead of the word you.
Yes, so great to meet you.
Three exclamation points.
Well, I'm not sure what that...
I don't know what that means.
He might have been busy.
He might have been getting out of a cab or something.
I'm sure he was.
I'm sure he was.
But I don't know what it means.
And so I didn't know what to say next.
So I didn't say anything.
yeah so now oh that's where you are now that's where we're at how could you fucking uh i don't know i don't know what i don't know what to do now to write him and say i'm i just we didn't talk about this you mad i yeah you mad or like you know uh are no i should write and say you up like at two in the three in the morning you up
Anyway, I went to the Fred Meyer.
Okay.
And the problem was that I went about a month ago to the Safeway and I picked up a box because I got the Keurig running again because I de-limed it.
I de-lime diseased it or whatever.
They need maintenance for sure.
That little needle can get screwed up in all kinds of ways.
It was screwed up, but I got it running again.
Or actually, let me be honest.
Let me just come straight out and say, Mom got it running again.
Okay.
That makes no sense.
Yeah, exactly.
And I went down to the Safeway, and they had a sale on those Starbucks Keurig cups.
Yeah.
A big box of them on sale.
So I got it.
I was walking around the store with it in my shopping cart.
I went over to look at the cakes.
And over by the cakes, there was a big display.
of signature safeway signature curate cups and you could get 48 safeway signature cups for less than like 14 starbucks cups yeah so i did the thing where i put the starbucks thing down and i picked up the signature because i'm not above signature coffee this is top of the shelf safeway stuff
I got it home.
I started using the Signature Series Keurig coffee cups.
It's great.
It's fine.
It's fine.
It's as good as anything.
It's coffee.
Yeah, it's better than that stuff I was using that was in like a pod.
Anyway, so I go through all 48 Safeway Signature cups.
And I'm out of coffee.
And although I've got five bags of beans lying around, I've got a vacuum sealed bag of Cuban coffee that my sister brought back from Cuba.
I don't want to get the coffee maker down and start making coffee like a savage.
I want to use my cups.
So I'm on my way to the Safeway.
I don't make it.
I don't make it to the Safeway.
I have something else to do.
I get over to the other side of town.
There is a Safeway.
I drive past it.
I'm on the wrong side of the street.
I would have to pull a U-turn to go to the Safeway.
You'd have to take a difficult left.
It would be a weird thing.
Actually, I had to change a couple lanes and then do it.
That's no good.
I'm not that loyal.
So there's a Fred Meyer on my side of the street.
And I'm like, I'm just going to go to the Fred Meyer.
I'm sure they have these things too.
So I go to the Fred Meyer.
I'm walking down the Keurig Cup aisle.
and there's a starbucks there starbucks cups and they're on sale but i also know that somewhere not further down this line is going to be some kind of more cups for less so i get down there sure enough here's kroger select coffee uh keurig cups 48 of them for like
I don't know.
So it's on sale such that each cup of coffee is like 20 cents.
Wow.
That'll go down easy.
Like sold.
Yes.
But the Kroger's have light roast, medium roast, donut shop roast, which is supposed to be, I think, Dunkin' Donuts.
Yeah.
And then the darkest roast they have is something called medium dark roast.
I search and search and search for dark roast.
I don't find it.
I don't find it such that I'm almost prepared to go pay more for Starbucks just to get a dark roast because I don't think I like a medium dark roast.
But in the end, so then there's a lady there and she picks medium dark roast and puts it in her cart and
And her like 10 year old son is talking to her about his fantasy football team.
And I'm like, these seem like people I can trust.
So I get the medium dark roast.
So this morning,
Right before the show, after I had a spoonful of chocolate, I made my first cup of Kroger medium dark roast.
Okay.
A cup.
And it's bad.
Oh, no.
Is it the worst of both worlds?
See, we're the darkest roast kind of family.
We're real, like, I don't know, dad bod about our coffee.
We like the dark roast.
I know the real fancy coffee people like the lighter ones, but we always get the darkest.
If you get the semi-dark, eh.
Yeah, that's right.
It's the worst of both ways.
It'll be bitter, but not flavorful.
It has that sour taste that coffee snobs think is good flavor.
Oh, the Arabica thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Like a Nigerian or like a... Yeah, I know what you mean.
This just tastes like... It tastes like it's off.
My wife will not have that.
She will not allow tangy coffee in the house.
No, it's tangy.
That's right.
It's tangy and soft.
I think she thinks it tastes cheap when it's tangy.
I think so, too.
Yeah.
And, you know, Mike Squires is all about like, oh, you know, like here's some coffee that tastes like fucking skunk glands.
Yeah.
I'm like, I don't think so.
He does it, yeah.
And he's like, this is the good stuff.
And if you don't like it, you're a plebe.
And I'm like, I'm a plebe then.
So anyway, I've got 48 cups.
Well, now 46 because I put two of them in my mug here.
You get 46 cups of this sour coffee I have to get.
Save it for guests.
Interesting.
At least some of them, yeah.
The only two people that regularly come here are Ken Jennings, who doesn't drink coffee, and Adam Pranica, who always brings his own coffee.
fancy coffee that he brings his own coffee to your home he brings his own coffee and it's some kind of fancy coffee and when i offer him coffee he's like oh i'm fine where you sleep where your children play with their toys he brings his own fucking coffee to the house he does holy shit does that does that go undiscussed the only the only reason that it is that it goes by that it's fine is i can appreciate somebody might not want a keurig but also he routinely brings me
an egg and sausage breakfast oh well fucking a that was forgiven so i'm like do what you like act how you like are you gonna try and resolve this in the in the 20.19 you're gonna try and get this worked out with craig here's the thing i owe apologies to so many people do you
Well, don't I?
It depends on the color of your crystal.
I think you're waiting.
Aren't you waiting for apologies from a handful of people?
Well, I'll wait forever.
I learned a long time ago that none of those people think they owe me an apology.
Oh, that's the bigger problem.
Yeah.
They're never going to give me an apology.
So, yeah, I'll just I'll be a pile of bones.
I see what you're saying.
It's like trying to fix the environment by not using straws.
Like there's a way bigger thing going on here.
Right.
Like, oh, paper, paper or plastic.
Well, you know what?
Actually, like, let's keep avoiding nuclear war as long as we can.
I hear that.
Yeah.
Uh, so I don't know.
So yes, I want to, I don't know.
But the thing is, I don't know whether, I don't think that the person that goes, let's collaborate on something now is me.
Could that be a case of him just genuinely being a good time, Charlie in the moment and like, uh, you know, no shade, no lemonade, but like, he's not really like committed to like a whole big thing that he was just having fun being garrulous.
Uh,
Not in a mean way.
No, no, no.
I feel like the fact that he was walking past me multiple times, scoping me out, means that he had a complicated relationship with this exchange.
He didn't just walk over and go like, oh, hey, I'm a big fan.
There was a lot going on beforehand.
And I feel like he might have been conflict averse.
And so this whole event where we were friends and got all close and stuff was just his version of dealing with it.
You know, like if I met my bully or whatever and he was nice...
I would be like, okay, then nice.
That's what we're doing.
We're doing nice.
Like when he said, oh, hey, John, I'm Craig.
I could have been like, oh, what's up?
Yeah, right.
The hold steady.
Yeah.
Great.
I mean, I could have... He didn't know whether I was a permanent dick or whether I was just writing something funny on my T9 phone and I didn't really know or care about anything.
Right?
So he was just... So you're answering my question, though.
You think he knew and remembered the remarks?
I do think so.
Okay.
I do think so, and I do think that he was being polite.
But I don't know how much...
It was politeness and how much everything he knew about me was genuinely a result of knowing things about somebody that you know things about.
I know things about people.
I know things about all kinds of people.
That's going to take you a long time to figure out.
You don't just go and ask that.
No, but he might text me at some point and be like, hey, I'm making a record.
Do you want to come to rap the middle eight?
Mm-hmm.
You think you'd want to do that?
Yo, yo, yo, yo, notch the 4K, yo, yo, you know, these cables are directional, pow, zappity-doo, right?
And I'm John Roderick, come to town, my USB's always upside down.
Why doesn't Skype load like it should?
Why is my computer made of wood?
This has been very stressful.